Concorde001
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Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:19 pm

I think this warrants its own thread as the others are concerned with rumours from the media... (the earlier one was deleted).

It has now been CONFIRMED that the EU has unanimously backed EU-US Open Skies.

"European Union (EU) transport ministers have unanimously backed an "open skies" aviation deal with the US aimed at liberalising transatlantic air travel...EU Transport Commissioner Jacques Barrot described the deal as one of "great political and economic importance."

"The fact that everyone in the Council (of transport ministers) has been able to welcome the outcome is to be commended," he said."


Source: BBC News

I'm not sure if Britain secured its two amendments of delaying LHR access till 2008 and further negotiations on ownership.

Well congratulations are in order to the EU and US...they finally got there, Let's hope this is the first step to FULL liberalisation.

[Edited 2007-03-22 13:27:52]
 
nonrev
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:27 pm

Why was the last post deleted?
 
kaitak
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:29 pm

Wonderful news; I'm sure we'll hear more of the details in due course. In particular, I'm concerned that any changes made as a result of UK objections don't increase the possibility of its being rejected by the UK.

From an Irish perspective, it's wonderful news. The SNN stopover is now consigned to history. It is a monumental step forward.
 
Concorde001
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting NonRev (Reply 1):
Why was the last post deleted?

Apparently it was a double thread with:

Britain To Agree To Open Skies...Strings Attached

But that thread was discussing the possibility of British approval if certain conditions were met.

This thread is different as EU-US Open Skies has now been confirmed and I think therefore it warrants its own thread.
 
Nimish
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:33 pm

So is there anything preventing this from being signed immediately?
Incredible India!
 
scotron11
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 4):

So is there anything preventing this from being signed immediately?

Only change I see is the implementation date. From Oct07 until Mar08, the way I read it. Goodo! Finally Bermuda II is laid to rest!! R . I. P.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:42 pm

Wonderful news, not before time, I cannot wait to see the main players now scrambling to get slots at LHR.
 
Curious
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:42 pm

I wonder if this will mean the all business carriers will try to move into LHR? maybe a bit expensive for Silverjet or maxjet to try and get regular slot but perhaps Eos?

I would make the price of a regular slot at LHR more expensive?
 
wheelsatc
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:42 pm

Not really 'open skies' for everyone though. EU airlines still cannot own more than 25% of a US carrier, US carriers can takeover EU carriers and EU airlines cannot fly US domestic services whereas US airlines can now fly whatever they like within the EU.

Of course the main loser is Britain (as always) with heathrow now being opened up to all and sundry meaning the likes of LH, AF, KL will spend the next couple of years trying to ruin it until BA and VS are dead and buried.

Over the top? maybe, but i can imagine it happening!
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:43 pm

QUOTE FROM BBC ARTICLE FROM 1ST POST
But while US airlines would gain free access to European airports, EU carriers would not be allowed the same rights on domestic routes within the US.
UNQUOTE

What is the advantage for European airlines?
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting Wheelsatc (Reply 8):
Not really 'open skies' for everyone though. EU airlines still cannot own more than 25% of a US carrier, US carriers can takeover EU carriers and EU airlines cannot fly US domestic services whereas US airlines can now fly whatever they like within the EU.

You are right!!! Bring back the restrictions to US airlines. These rules are unfair. Why is the US always given favourable terms and conditions. After 9/11, all US airlines were injected money. EU airlines had to survive on their own or die.

It is really unfair!
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
scotron11
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 9):

What is the advantage for European airlines?

Well, for one example, AF/KLM would be allowed to fly anywhere in the EU to anyplace in the US. In fact, AF could do away with the AF/KLM dual structure and still have traffic rights x-Netherlands-US.

BA could takeover IB and have full traffic rights x-MAD etc.

Plus, the biggest advantage will be travellers as I am sure fares will become more competitive.
 
donder10
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Wheelsatc (Reply 8):
Of course the main loser is Britain (as always) with heathrow now being opened up to all and sundry meaning the likes

Can you please explain why greater competition on UK-US routes will make Britain worse off.
 
kaitak
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:53 pm

Are you sure about the delay; I thought this was only supposed to apply to LHR? Aer Lingus is planning to start services to SFO, IAD and MCO from this Autumn. Why should the rest of Europe have to wait until T5 is up and running.
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 11):
Well, for one example, AF/KLM would be allowed to fly anywhere in the EU to anyplace in the US. In fact, AF could do away with the AF/KLM dual structure and still have traffic rights x-Netherlands-US.

OK, but AF still cannot fly CDG-JFK-ORD but United can fly ORD-CDG-LHR.
Am I missing something?
 
Concorde001
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 13):
Are you sure about the delay; I thought this was only supposed to apply to LHR? Aer Lingus is planning to start services to SFO, IAD and MCO from this Autumn. Why should the rest of Europe have to wait until T5 is up and running.

I'm not sure if Britain got its concessions, but if it did, the delay will only apply to LHR.
 
kaitak
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:02 pm

Aer Lingus has just announced SFO, IAD and MCO, to start this Winter, so it appears that the LHR concession only applies to LHR.
 
antonovman
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Ski

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:07 pm

Once again the USA has got everything it wanted but what has the EU and especially the UK got ? NOTHING . Now we will have those great dinosaurs in LHR being propped up financially by bankrupcy protection. They will be demanding they are given slots taken away from BA next. SOLD OUT ONCE AGAIN
 
JoKeR
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:11 pm

Does the deal affect the non-EU states (Serbia, Croatia etc) which are signatories to the EU Open Skies Treaty?
Kafa, čaj, šraf?
 
ARGinLON
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 11):
Well, for one example, AF/KLM would be allowed to fly anywhere in the EU to anyplace in the US. In fact, AF could do away with the AF/KLM dual structure and still have traffic rights x-Netherlands-US.

AF/KL will be the big winner on the EU side. I imagine AF taking most of the KL North America operations... In addition, this will make their LHR a golden mine due to the "insane" number of slots they owe
 
PanHAM
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:30 pm

A real gold mine can be the BMI investment of LH + SK. They have the slots and can easily use these for US services.

LH can make a better use of he LX investment. Will be interestimng to watch the market developments over the next couple of months.
powered by Eierlikör
 
panamair
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 10):
After 9/11, all US airlines were injected money. EU airlines had to survive on their own or die.

It is really unfair!

Many EU airlines over the course of their history have been injected with all sorts of subsidies and monies as well. Yes, even the currently mighty and profitable AF and BA have at various times in their histories been propped up by taxpayer dollars; without those they wouldn't be around today either.

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 14):
but AF still cannot fly CDG-JFK-ORD but United can fly ORD-CDG-LHR.
Am I missing something?

Frankly, why would AF want to serve JFK-ORD (and compete with B6's multiple daily flights) and why would UA want to fly CDG-LHR? Many US airlines already have rights between many European cities (e.g. UA can already fly LHR-FRA or LHR-MUC -carrying local traffic today even without Open Skies) but they have learnt for the most part that it is no longer profitable to have such far-flung local operations (DL giving up PA's FRA hub, UA dropping all of its LHR spokes inherited from PA, etc.)

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 17):
Now we will have those great dinosaurs in LHR being propped up financially by bankrupcy protection.

But apparently these are such attractive dinosaurs that you guys don't mind beating the drum ever so loudly to increase foreign ownership of US airlines...apparently you would like to throw your hard-earned profits into these dinosaurs!!

[Edited 2007-03-22 14:32:37]
 
ARGinLON
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
Frankly, why would AF want to serve JFK-ORD (and compete with B6's multiple daily flights) and why would UA want to fly CDG-LHR? Many US airlines already have rights between many European cities (e.g. UA can already fly LHR-FRA or LHR-MUC -carrying local traffic today even without Open Skies) but they have learnt for the most part that it is no longer profitable to have such far-flung local operations (DL giving up PA's FRA hub, UA dropping all of its LHR spokes inherited from PA, etc.)

100% true! People here are speculating will all sorts of strategies..... AA doing ORD-LHR-CDG, VS flying from all EU countries to feed its new venture (VA) and blah, blah, blah... Open Skies was all about LHR rights and AF/KL full integration..... That's all over... nothing will change apart from the gold mine BA/AA/UA/VS currently have at LHR.
 
antonovman
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Ski

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
But apparently these are such attractive dinosaurs that you guys don't mind beating the drum ever so loudly to increase foreign ownership of US airlines...apparently you would like to throw your hard-earned profits into these dinosaurs!!

Well that is one subject we both seem to agree on, Talk about throwing money away on a dead horse. I'll never understand why they are so determined to get that law changed.
 
jonathan-l
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
Frankly, why would AF want to serve JFK-ORD (and compete with B6's multiple daily flights) and why would UA want to fly CDG-LHR?

OK, it might be useless for everyone so why do US airlines have the right to cabotage and not European airlines. I am asking out of curiosity, what drove the absence of reciprocity on this item?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 14):
OK, but AF still cannot fly CDG-JFK-ORD but United can fly ORD-CDG-LHR.
Am I missing something?

You think you are comparing EU-US-US to US-EU-EU, but you are really comparing FR-US-US to US-FR-UK.

The EU is not a sovereign nation, it's a group of sovereign nations that prefer to negotiate as a block.

I hear many of you crying foul, but this thing has been talked to death, and if the EU doesn't like the deal, they do not have to sign. One is then free to conclude that the EU negotiators decided making this deal was better than no deal at all, or one can choose to find some other less savory explanation.

I congratulate the US for standing firm over these many years of negotiations.
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ManchesterMAN
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:15 pm

Well United just got a good deal from Delta selling the London/New York route authority only to be able to operate it again come next Spring (not that they would).
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
masseybrown
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Ski

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:18 pm

The delay in opening LHR until BA moves to T-5, assuming that happens on time, makes eminent sense. Transatlantic routes are generally opened in the spring/summer, not the low fall/witner season for good economic reasons. As importantly, getting BA settled in its new digs presumably makes some room for new airlines in the other terminals.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Wheelsatc (Reply 8):
Of course the main loser is Britain (as always) with heathrow now being opened up to all and sundry meaning the likes of LH, AF, KL will spend the next couple of years trying to ruin it until BA and VS are dead and buried.



Quote:
The U.K. should be the biggest beneficiary, diplomats add. Almost 40% of the current trans-Atlantic air traffic is between the U.K. and the U.S., they argue.



Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 24):
OK, it might be useless for everyone so why do US airlines have the right to cabotage and not European airlines. I am asking out of curiosity, what drove the absence of reciprocity on this item?



Quote:
This is just the first phase of a trans-Atlantic air opening, said Mr. Tiefensee, acknowledging he had hoped for more movement on airline ownership and operation within the U.S. A second-stage deal will address these issues, he added.

If no agreement is reached in 2010, each member state may, if it wishes, notify the commission of any particular rights they would like to suspend, said Mr. Barrot. "The idea behind this clause is to bring pressure to bear on the U.S. in order to conclude the second stage."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1174...945361.html?mod=home_whats_news_us

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 10):
After 9/11, all US airlines were injected money. EU airlines had to survive on their own or die.

Very few airlines took the government money because there were too many strings attached.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting Wheelsatc (Reply 8):
Not really 'open skies' for everyone though. EU airlines still cannot own more than 25% of a US carrier, US carriers can takeover EU carriers and EU airlines cannot fly US domestic services whereas US airlines can now fly whatever they like within the EU.

Yes but any US carrier with it's 747 on a commute from say FRA-LHR-NYC will be eaten alive by Ryanair, Easyjet etc competition on air fares. If UA etc can make a profit solely on business passengers between FRA-JFK then good luck to them but I dont hold out much hope.

Quoting Wheelsatc (Reply 8):
Of course the main loser is Britain (as always) with heathrow now being opened up to all and sundry meaning the likes of LH, AF, KL will spend the next couple of years trying to ruin it until BA and VS are dead and buried.

As a British Citizen and Star Gold FF, I dont care for BA/VS, but look forwards to bmi !!! There long haul is much better than any US carrier's service. Thats hardly a british loss. If any EU star alliance carrier wants to use LHR.. then great.. more the merrier, as a European thats better and better, as a Star Gold FF and passenger.. even more.
And if BA are so mortally wounded.. maybe they should look at a FRA and CDG to JFK too !
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:29 pm

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 14):
OK, but AF still cannot fly CDG-JFK-ORD but United can fly ORD-CDG-LHR.
Am I missing something?

AF Can fly FRA-JFK if they wanted, before they could not.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 17):
Once again the USA has got everything it wanted but what has the EU and especially the UK got ? NOTHING . Now we will have those great dinosaurs in LHR being propped up financially by bankrupcy protection. They will be demanding they are given slots taken away from BA next. SOLD OUT ONCE AGAIN

Have you forgotten about BMI ? They can replace BA if they go out of business. But then again so can LH.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
NYC777
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:31 pm

So I assume it is a done deal and wil now go into force on March 31, 2008? Does the US side have to get approvals from Congress before it goes into effect?

[Edited 2007-03-22 15:32:08]
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
donder10
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 26):
Well United just got a good deal from Delta selling the London/New York route authority only to be able to operate it again come next Spring (not that they would).

I believe that the agreement made provisions for Open Skies occuring in that Delta would have to pay less if it came about within a certain time period.
 
panamair
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 29):
Yes but any US carrier with it's 747 on a commute from say FRA-LHR-NYC will be eaten alive by Ryanair, Easyjet etc competition on air fares.

Precisely my earlier point that it's all hot air about cabotage within the US and EU...US carriers have long learnt since the Pan Am and TWA days (a different era) that it's not worth their while to fly intra-Europe flights (DL's shutting of the PA FRA hub, UA jettisoning LHR-Continental Europe routes). Besides, look at CO and DL's strategies re: their European ops - nonstops from their US hubs to more and more secondary cities, bypassing any sort of European hub.

The converse would be true for European airlines seeking cabotage in the US. If AF thinks they can extend their CDG-JFK 77W from JFK to SFO with one or even two flights a day, they'd be eaten alive by B6, Virgin America and even the other legacies with their lower unit costs and multiple daily flights....same thing with Willie Walsh's pronouncement today that BA would be interested in serving some transcon markets (JFK to the West Coast, where else?). How is BA going to do this profitably? Base an A320 fleet at JFK? (too expensive)... Use 777s from LHR-JFK to continue to the West Coast (too much capacity and not enough frequencies - AA has 10-11 dailies between JFK and LAX alone).....
 
masseybrown
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 28):
Very few airlines took the government money because there were too many strings attached.

ALL US airlines took the government grant money, pretty hefty amounts intended to compensate for loss of business and security impositions. Few, however, applied for the guaranteed loans and even fewer got them.
 
vinniewinnie
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:52 pm

I haven't seen any comments suggesting that due to this deal European integration will make a huge step forward! Airlines were up to now reluctant to merge because of this ownership issue affecting services to the US! Now European airlines can merge at will which is what the EU really wants!

If BA is ambitious it could definately be a winner of this deal since it is one of the few carriers which has enough strengh the go on a shopping trip!

Btw does this deal affect EFTA as well? because if it does it certainly means that Lufthansa and swiss can fully merge as well!
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 18):
Does the deal affect the non-EU states (Serbia, Croatia etc) which are signatories to the EU Open Skies Treaty?

I would imagine so, this is an European Aviation treaty, negotiatied by the EU, not an EU bound treaty. I would imagine this applies to Norway, Iceland and Switzerland to.

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 19):
AF/KL will be the big winner on the EU side. I imagine AF taking most of the KL North America operations... In addition, this will make their LHR a golden mine due to the "insane" number of slots they owe

I dont think so. AF could have ended KL's US operations by private negotiation. Move over I can imagine there becoming some interesting US cycles... AMS-JFK-MAN-JFK-AMS cycles with aircraft

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
real gold mine can be the BMI investment of LH + SK. They have the slots and can easily use these for US services.

More likely will be a big cash injection by SK and LH into BD. Remember BD only has 3x A330, it will need long haul aircraft (which LH can provide) and BD can offer the slots. However I expect (for good marketing reasons) the BD brand will remain on the aircraft, even though it's LH under the hood. (just like LX).
However it looks like happy days for Star Alliance in london....finally !!!

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 24):
OK, it might be useless for everyone so why do US airlines have the right to cabotage and not European airlines. I am asking out of curiosity, what drove the absence of reciprocity on this item?

EU has a drudge of highly profitable airlines. Some cash rich from Long Haul, others cash rich from budget operations.
US Long Haul airlines are all poverty struck, they wont be able to compete on price or service within the EU unless they invest considerably in EU Specific short haul aircraft.

The other possibility is opening of otherwise non-profitable routes to the US from the EU.
Most nations "2nd/3rd Cities" have a poor air service for long haul (such as BHX, NCL, Marseille, Toulouse, Berlin, Malmo, Gothenburg, Venice, Naples, Krakow, Thessaloniki and so on)

Maybe JFK-NCL-TXL may become a viable operation.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
You think you are comparing EU-US-US to US-EU-EU, but you are really comparing FR-US-US to US-FR-UK.

Whats the difference ? FR-US-US to US-FR (EU) - UK (EU)

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
The EU is not a sovereign nation, it's a group of sovereign nations that prefer to negotiate as a block.

Exactly, it the US thats failing to recognise the EU as one trading block. The EU could have chosen to just re-organise and allow it's EU carriers to operate from any EU airport to the US and not offer the US anything. This would have only lead to a trade war. Instead they offered the US something of very little value and a mass investment in the EU by US airlines that try and a mass injection to the EU of cash, which ultimately may end up abandoned in Europe when they are beaten by EU Competition and European attitudes that Americans just dont understand.

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 26):
Well United just got a good deal from Delta selling the London/New York route authority only to be able to operate it again come next Spring (not that they would).

They certainly did ! The fact that UA dropped JFK-LHR shows that this route isnt the pot of gold everyone thinks this is.

only AI/KU have kept it open and thats only cos of it's own onward feed from their own countries.

The fact that 8 months on DL is still 1 a day shows that they are not bailing hay whilst the sunshines either.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
ikramerica
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Scotron11 (Reply 5):
Only change I see is the implementation date. From Oct07 until Mar08, the way I read it. Goodo! Finally Bermuda II is laid to rest!! R . I. P.

Sounds reasonable.

Quoting Wheelsatc (Reply 8):
Not really 'open skies' for everyone though. EU airlines still cannot own more than 25% of a US carrier, US carriers can takeover EU carriers and EU airlines cannot fly US domestic services whereas US airlines can now fly whatever they like within the EU.

That is not the definition of open skies anyway, and your analysis is wrong. A US airline can't fly within an EU country (LHR-MAN for example) nor "whatever they like" in the EU, either.

Hopefully, UK posters will stop whining about this if it's a done deal. The red herring arguments are getting tiring.

WIll you all still be complaining with VS grows and you can fly them JFK-CDG? When prices and options for LHR increase and you are no longer at the whim of BA for inter-EU as well as transatlantic travel?

We'll see.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
panamair
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RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 37):
The fact that 8 months on DL is still 1 a day shows that they are not bailing hay whilst the sunshines either.

The service started Nov 15 2006; it has been running for 4 months. In 10 days (April 1), the second daily will start.
 
TropicBird
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:13 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:02 pm

Doesn't the U.S. Congress have to buy into this first before it becomes a reality? Maybe that is why it was watered down, to get their blessing because they were not going to approve the earlier version. Until Congress approves this, I believe it is still an open matter on the U.S. side. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 17):
Once again the USA has got everything it wanted but what has the EU and especially the UK got ? NOTHING . Now we will have those great dinosaurs in LHR being propped up financially by bankrupcy protection. They will be demanding they are given slots taken away from BA next. SOLD OUT ONCE AGAIN

Are you serious, carriers in Europe and British carriers can fly to any US City from any city in Europe now. How is that not getting anything, the US gets access to LHR... thats about it really.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 35):
ALL US airlines took the government grant money,

Wrong, Southwest and Northwest did not take the money, because its not a true grant, it has to be paid back.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting ARGinLON (Reply 22):
Open Skies was all about LHR rights and AF/KL full integration

Let's not leap ahead too far. The U.S. is not the only country where bilaterals govern air traffic. If the AF/KL dual structure was done away with, it would impact every other bilateral France and The Netherlands have signed.
International Homo of Mystery
 
nyc2theworld
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:58 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 37):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
You think you are comparing EU-US-US to US-EU-EU, but you are really comparing FR-US-US to US-FR-UK.

Whats the difference ? FR-US-US to US-FR (EU) - UK (EU)

The UK is still its own sovereign nation. France is still its on sovereign nation. The Head of state of France and the Head of Government in each country is different. Each country in the EU has the opportunity if the will and fight is there to end their association with the EU and negotiate various treaties on their behalf, they still have a political/economic/social structure to fall back on.

The United States is different. There is no "New Jersey Dollar", there is no "New York Department of State" or various other division of a government on a state level that deal DIRECTLY with foreign governments in negotiating treaties. The states have given up many more rights and responsibilities to our federal government to act on their behalf with foreign nations than sovereign nations in Europe have given to the EU. The fact that there is still border controls between some countries in Europe is a prime example of this. There are no border/passport controls between New Jersey and New York.

So to compare the EU, which is a Economic and Monetary Union/Common Market (depending if the country's currency is the Euro) to a sovereign nation its flawed.

Just because the Schengen treaty has eliminated many inter-country borders in Europe, doesn't mean the US has to open its borders as if it was an EU member country.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
 
cainanuk
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:05 pm

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:50 pm

I am just worried about my job. If my employer (BD) moves all our longhaul services to LHR, and ends up abandoning MAN (ala BA) for just a bunch of LHR shuttles, I may be working for a handling agent.
Cainan Cornelius
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8640
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting NYC2theworld (Reply 43):

So to compare the EU, which is a Economic and Monetary Union/Common Market (depending if the country's currency is the Euro) to a sovereign nation its flawed.

Interesting that we are discussing Hybrids these days.

Yes and no to the above. The single member countries have delegated a lot of their sovereignty to the EU commission, the EU commission negotiates on behalf of the member states and the member states are well advised to always have their competent staff at the negotiating table so that they can intervene.

When a consenses is found, at the end of the day, ratification by all member states (plus the countries of the EU common aviation zone) should be (not always is) a formality.
powered by Eierlikör
 
travelin man
Posts: 3203
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 24):
why do US airlines have the right to cabotage and not European airlines



Quoting Wheelsatc (Reply 8):
EU airlines cannot fly US domestic services whereas US airlines can now fly whatever they like within the EU



Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 9):
EU carriers would not be allowed the same rights on domestic routes within the US.



Quoting Jonathan-l (Reply 14):
OK, but AF still cannot fly CDG-JFK-ORD but United can fly ORD-CDG-LHR.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE look up the definition of cabotage. You are very very confused if you think flying LHR-CDG = JFK-ORD. One is cabotage, the other is NOT.

"Domestic" EU does not equal Domestic US. One is a single nation, the other is a collection of nations.

I'm not sure how else to put it.
 
cainanuk
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:05 pm

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 46):
"Domestic" EU does not equal Domestic US. One is a single nation, the other is a collection of nations.

It really is a matter of symantics. If you are an EU passport holder, lHR-CDG IS more or less the same as JFK-ORD. The entry requirements are the same for a US passport holder going to one EU country as they are to another. I know this because I AM a US passport holder living in the EU.
Cainan Cornelius
 
Concorde001
Topic Author
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:30 am

It is being reported that Britain has secured the right to terminate access to LHR if progress on ownership is not achieved by 2010

British Airways has responded to the agreement and below is the press release:

Summary

  • BA wants the UK Government to stand firm on the pledge to withdraw traffic rights if ownership restrictions are not lifted by 2010
  • BA thinks the decision to delay the new agreement until March 2008 is "unnecessary"
  • First priority is to transfer US services from LGW to LHR


Quote:
British Airways has called on the UK government to stand by its right of automatic termination of traffic rights granted in the new air treaty endorsed today between the EU and US if America drags its feet on negotiating further liberalisation.

Access to Heathrow for US airlines is at the heart of the new aviation pact signed by European Union Transport Ministers today in Brussels.

British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh said, "The EU is naïve to believe the US will deliver on the next stage of liberalisation without sanctions so we are pleased the UK government has recognised this and demanded an automatic termination clause. However, the five month delay before implementation is unnecessary.

"With the EU having given away their most valuable negotiating asset - Heathrow - the UK government must stand by its pledge to withdraw traffic rights if the US does not deliver further liberalisation by 2010. Nothing short of an Open Aviation Area by 2010 will be acceptable and we want talks on the second stage to achieve this to start immediately.

"This means delivering a true Open Aviation Area under which airlines from both sides would have free access to each others' market without restrictions and where it will be possible for a US airline to be 100% owned by investors from the EU and vice versa.

"A genuine liberalisation such as this would deliver huge benefits for customers.

"It is disappointing that the EU has missed the opportunity to achieve these long term gains for customers. Instead, this deal will deliver short term gains for the subsidised American aviation industry.

"So far the US has made no meaningful concessions. American carriers can now fly into Heathrow, Europe and beyond while their own backyard remains a no go area for EU carriers and foreign ownership of their airlines remains unchanged.

"We will hold the Government to its word to fight for Britain's interests if America doesn't play ball. Though this is a poor agreement for Britain and Europe, we are ready to exploit the new opportunities this agreement gives us for our customers and our business. Our priority will be to move the Gatwick services to Heathrow that have most connecting traffic, such as the Houston route which serves the oil markets and give our customers the best possible connections."
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Confirmed: EU Gives Go Ahead To EU-US Open Skies

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:41 am

Hang on! The US refused Europe eighth freedom rights. A European airline can't fly A-B-C, where both B and C are in the USA, eg LHR-JFK-LAX. But neither do US airlines have eighth freedom rights. They can't fly JFK-HAM-MUN. What they can do is fly JFK-CDG-HAM. But that isn't eighth freedom, that's fifth freedom. European airlines also have fifth freedom. They could fly MUN-CDG-JFK.

So everyone's equal. Did Europe offer America eighth freedom rights? If they didn't, why should they respect the US to grant them that.

Maybe the eurocrats are just hoping that a United States of Europe will evolve soon enough thereby banishing US airlines from intra-European routes.

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