ORDTerminal1
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Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:50 pm

Title is pretty self explanatory.
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ti717
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:59 pm

Yes


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kaitak
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:42 am

It's not quite gone, but it's as near to being history as makes no difference. This is an ex-rule; it has (nearly) ceased to be. Bereft of life it lies. It has joined the choir invisible.

Strictly speaking, the stopover ratio goes from 1:1 to 3:1 today. As of next March, when O/S comes into being proper, it is actually a dead parrot, I mean rule.  Big grin
 
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N328KF
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:46 am

This will probably severely decrease the load at SNN, shifting much of it to DUB. The fact that DUB warrants more demand makes zero sense to me since to SNN area is far more interesting country. But I guess some people would rather go tour the Guinness brewery than drive the Ring of Kerry.

[Edited 2007-03-22 19:05:40]
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ANother
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:02 am

See my reply 105 here. Not until the end of the Winter season 07/08.
 
Humberside
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:26 am

Guess the next questions is how much US service will SNN keep. I could see CO keeping a B752 to EWR
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commavia
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 5):
Guess the next questions is how much US service will SNN keep. I could see CO keeping a B752 to EWR

My prediction is that SNN will retain:

- a daily (perhaps year-round, perhaps going 3-5x weekly in the winter) CO 757 to EWR
- a daily (perhaps year-round, perhaps going 3-5x weekly in the winter) US 767 to PHL
- a daily (perhaps year-round, perhaps going 3-5x weekly in the winter) DL 767 to JFK and/or ATL
- a daily, year-round EI A330 to JFK and BOS

Beyond that, I think SNN will lose all AA service, the remainder of EI service, and any other nonstop U.S. service it now has.
 
whappeh
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
- a daily (perhaps year-round, perhaps going 3-5x weekly in the winter) US 767 to PHL

That flight is already a 757, and I can see it being a 3x weekly 757, I doubt Daily, I don't think the loads were ever that great.
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remcor
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:53 am

Forgive my ignorance, but why is there a rule that makes flights route to Shannon? What's so special about Shannon? I hear it's a nice place around there, but there's no big city nearby.
 
whappeh
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting Remcor (Reply 8):
Forgive my ignorance, but why is there a rule that makes flights route to Shannon? What's so special about Shannon? I hear it's a nice place around there, but there's no big city nearby.

Its to spread economic growth around the country of Ireland. You hit the reason on the head with out realizing it. With out a mandatory reason to go to Shannon, nobody would, and Dublin would reap all the benefits. So in order to fly to Dublin you have to fly to Shannon.
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remcor
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 9):
Its to spread economic growth around the country of Ireland. You hit the reason on the head with out realizing it. With out a mandatory reason to go to Shannon, nobody would, and Dublin would reap all the benefits. So in order to fly to Dublin you have to fly to Shannon.

Seems pretty silly. People either have a reason to go there or they don't. Tourists would go to that region anyway because as a friend told me who recently went to Ireland, "Dublin is is a bit of a dump, so Shannon is closer to the touristy areas." But why mandate it?
 
whappeh
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting Remcor (Reply 10):
Seems pretty silly. People either have a reason to go there or they don't. Tourists would go to that region anyway because as a friend told me who recently went to Ireland, "Dublin is is a bit of a dump, so Shannon is closer to the touristy areas." But why mandate it?

I'm no authority on the subject, so I could be very wrong, but I think it has something to do with the fact that Shannon used to be an important fuel stop on Trans-Atlantic flights back when aircraft didn't have the legs to get from Central/Eastern Europe and the Middle East over to the US and that provided a substantial amount of revenue for the Shannon Airport and the Shannon Area, the laws made it so the Shannon area wouldn't have its flight services dropped out from underneath them simply because aircraft could now over fly the area. Also, the area around the Shannon Airport is some sort of tax free, or used to be tax free, industrial complex (this is the part I'm shaky on, because I can't recall the exact way it was explained to me) and they need the flights for their cargo to help keep costs low.
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boysteve
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
It's not quite gone, but it's as near to being history as makes no difference. This is an ex-rule; it has (nearly) ceased to be. Bereft of life it lies. It has joined the choir invisible.

Strictly speaking, the stopover ratio goes from 1:1 to 3:1 today. As of next March, when O/S comes into being proper, it is actually a dead parrot, I mean rule.

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Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
This will probably severely decrease the load at SNN, shifting much of it to DUB. The fact that DUB warrants more demand makes zero sense to me since to SNN area is far more interesting country. But I guess some people would rather go tour the Guinness brewery than drive the Ring of Kerry.

Can someone explain what the max aircraft size/range that Cork could handle. Is it possible that CO, for example, might entertain an EWR B752 from there rather than SNN?
 
Danny
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
My prediction is that SNN will retain:

- a daily (perhaps year-round, perhaps going 3-5x weekly in the winter) CO 757 to EWR
- a daily (perhaps year-round, perhaps going 3-5x weekly in the winter) US 767 to PHL
- a daily (perhaps year-round, perhaps going 3-5x weekly in the winter) DL 767 to JFK and/or ATL
- a daily, year-round EI A330 to JFK and BOS

CO to EWR 5x weekly 757 - agree.
US to PHL - I think US will give up on SNN effective summer 2008.
DL - I think they will keep 5x weekly JFK maybe BOS on 757.
EI should keep daily to JFK and perhaps 5x weekly to BOS.

That's about it.
 
doug_or
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 7):
That flight is already a 757, and I can see it being a 3x weekly 757, I doubt Daily, I don't think the loads were ever that great.

They were miserable.
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Braybuddy
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 11):
I'm no authority on the subject, so I could be very wrong, but I think it has something to do with the fact that Shannon used to be an important fuel stop on Trans-Atlantic flights back when aircraft didn't have the legs to get from Central/Eastern Europe and the Middle East over to the US and that provided a substantial amount of revenue for the Shannon Airport and the Shannon Area, the laws made it so the Shannon area wouldn't have its flight services dropped out from underneath them simply because aircraft could now over fly the area. Also, the area around the Shannon Airport is some sort of tax free, or used to be tax free, industrial complex (this is the part I'm shaky on, because I can't recall the exact way it was explained to me) and they need the flights for their cargo to help keep costs low.

I beg to differ, Whappeh, you ARE an authority on the subject. Got it in one.

Did you know that Shannon was the first airport in the world to have a duty free shop?
 
whappeh
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 14):
They were miserable.

Yeah, that was the only time I've ever non-reved with confidence. I must say, the lack of stress about the return leg was amazing!

And Braybuddy: Glad to know I got it right!
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Braybuddy
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 16):
And Braybuddy: Glad to know I got it right!

The only thing I could add to that is that most European airlines used it as a stop-over, being the most westerly airport before hitting Newfoundland. A KLM Connie crashed in the Shannon esutary sometime in the 1950s.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 12):
Can someone explain what the max aircraft size/range that Cork could handle. Is it possible that CO, for example, might entertain an EWR B752 from there rather than SNN?

According to Google Earth, ORK has a 6900 foot runway. The ramp looks like its serving props, but there's a large building that looks new and appears to have at least one jetway. Is that a new terminal or for cargo?

In comparision, BRS has a 6200 foot runway and is farther from EWR than ORK.
According to a wbsite, Cork (127K) is second in population to Dublin (505K). I have thought it could be a CO 752 market similar to BRS as it would be pretty much a monopoly route.

One would think that ORK would look like a better opportunity for service if SNN had reduced services.

[Edited 2007-03-23 03:20:54]
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whappeh
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 17):
A KLM Connie crashed in the Shannon esutary sometime in the 1950s.

Isn't it still there? I seem to recall being able to see some sort of aircraft off in the river/muck/something right outside the terminal.
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Braybuddy
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:05 pm

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 19):
Isn't it still there? I seem to recall being able to see some sort of aircraft off in the river/muck/something right outside the terminal.

Really? I'd be surprised if it was the Connie, seeing it was so long ago. Maybe it was some other aircraft you saw? Must check it out.
 
Steve332
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 18):
Is that a new terminal or for cargo?

Yes thats the new terminal at ORK

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 18):
Dublin (505K).

Iv live in Dublin and apart from 4 months in Vancouver iv never lived anywhere else. I would have taught that there was a much larger population in Dublin than 505K but according to Wikipedia 505 is correct, I never knew that.
 
rineanna
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:10 pm

Quoting Steve332 (Reply 21):
Iv live in Dublin and apart from 4 months in Vancouver iv never lived anywhere else. I would have taught that there was a much larger population in Dublin than 505K but according to Wikipedia 505 is correct, I never knew that.

Well Wikipedia might have been just referring to the inner city population, but according to the CSO (which I think we can definitely trust!) Dublin had a total population (in all the county) of 1,122,821. Here's the breakdown of how the population is spread throughout Dublin:

Quote:
Dublin 544,075 578,746 1,122,821
of which
Dublin City 237,813 257,968 495,781
Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown 91,337 100,455 191,792
Fingal 97,409 99,004 196,413
South Dublin 117,516 121,319 238,835

Source: http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2002.htm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 20):
Really? I'd be surprised if it was the Connie, seeing it was so long ago. Maybe it was some other aircraft you saw? Must check it out.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but there is a vertical stabiliser of an aircraft on the round-about just outside the airport which can be seen from the terminal. Not sure if that's the connie though. Interestingly, my late grandad worked in the emergency services at Shannon airport during the time of the crash and was involved in the rescue operation immediatly afterwards. I remember him telling me of seeing the bodies being pulled from the aircraft.
 
Steve332
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 22):
Well Wikipedia might have been just referring to the inner city population, but according to the CSO (which I think we can definitely trust!) Dublin had a total population (in all the county) of 1,122,821. Here's the breakdown of how the population is spread throughout Dublin:

Yeah makes a lot more sense!!

Does anyone know what happened the Connie i.e. How did it crash??
 
rineanna
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting Steve332 (Reply 23):
Does anyone know what happened the Connie i.e. How did it crash??



Quote:
The official investigation concluded that the accident was caused by an unexpected re-extension of the landing gear and the captain's incorrect behaviour in this situation. Viruly, who had been only one year from retirement, rejected the responsibility for the crash and was bitter about his subsequent treatment by KLM. In an interview he later stated that there simply had not been enough time to react.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_633
 
CMHSRQ
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:34 pm

When operating from/to the US to Dublin the Shannon policy goes into effect

quote
To qualify to operate a non-stop service to/from US to/from Dublin, an airline must have operated a non-stop service to/from Shannon, within the same twelve month period as described in paragraph 8. Alternatively, an airline may operate a triangular service with Shannon served on either the inward or outward leg, e.g. US/Shannon/Dublin/US or US/Dublin/Shannon/US. Either way, this means that at least 50% of non-scheduled flights by each airline to/from the US to/from Ireland within the same 12 month period, must operate non-stop to/from Shannon

Paragraph 8

The Department of Public Enterprise will monitor the entitlement of each airline to operate non-stop flights to/from Dublin. The entitlement will apply on a twelve month basis incorporating one summer and one winter season commencing at the start of an IATA summer season, (e.g. the first full 12 month period will be from 27 March 1994 to the 25 March 1995).
Unquote


This policy has been such a pain in the rear end, it even applies to corporate jets operating part 135.
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JoFMO
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:10 pm

Shannon has a good amount of Ryanair flights. Could a 737-900ER fly nonstop to the USA? If yes then I could see them trying flights to east coast.
They basically fly to everywhere in Europe that is part of the single sky. They even announced flights to Morocco when their open sky agreement with the EU was not even fully confirmed. And I would not call Morocco a short particular haul flight. So why not the USA, it is just a little step further that many routes to Morocco are.
 
antonovman
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 22):
Maybe I'm mistaken, but there is a vertical stabiliser of an aircraft on the round-about just outside the airport which can be seen from the terminal. Not sure if that's the connie though

Isn't it still there? I seem to recall being able to see some sort of aircraft off in the river/muck/something right outside the terminal.

Its a tail section from an old B707. Its mounted in the middle of a roundabout outside the terminal building
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:36 am

According to Boeing, a 739ER could make SNN-BOS and SNN-NYC as the range is 3200 nm with 2 aux fuel tanks and SNN-JFK is 2678 nm. One would think that would work as the 739ER's range is 20% farther than the SNN-JFK route.

In comparison, the 752 has a 3900 nm range and CO operates it on 3458 nm TXL-EWR. The range is only 12% more than the TXL-EWR route.
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RobertS975
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:10 pm

FlyGlobeSpan is apprently starting up service between Knock in western Ireland to both BOS and JFK this Spring. That may further erode the value of SNN flights.
 
b52murph
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 11):
Quoting Remcor (Reply 10):
Seems pretty silly. People either have a reason to go there or they don't. Tourists would go to that region anyway because as a friend told me who recently went to Ireland, "Dublin is is a bit of a dump, so Shannon is closer to the touristy areas." But why mandate it?

I'm no authority on the subject, so I could be very wrong, but I think it has something to do with the fact that Shannon used to be an important fuel stop on Trans-Atlantic flights back when aircraft didn't have the legs to get from Central/Eastern Europe and the Middle East over to the US and that provided a substantial amount of revenue for the Shannon Airport and the Shannon Area, the laws made it so the Shannon area wouldn't have its flight services dropped out from underneath them simply because aircraft could now over fly the area. Also, the area around the Shannon Airport is some sort of tax free, or used to be tax free, industrial complex (this is the part I'm shaky on, because I can't recall the exact way it was explained to me) and they need the flights for their cargo to help keep costs low

Even with the reduction/elimination of some scheduled US commercial flights, SNN is also still a major stop-over point for US military charters heading to Continental Europe or the Middle East. I'd still expect you to see a frequent WO M11, Omni D10, or TZ L15 on a stop-over.
 
rineanna
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RE: Does EU Open Skies Abolish The Shannon Stop?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting B52murph (Reply 30):
WO M11,

Unfortunately WO pulled out of SNN last year, favouring Leipzig instead due to cost reasons. But there are still other airlines flying troop charters through SNN.