HeyWhaTheHay
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:29 am

Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:43 am

I'm still new to this hobby. I kind of got hooked while taking many lunch breaks in my truck outside of In N Out.  Smile
That being said, I saw something the other weekend, something "I" thought was pretty impressive at LAX.

In a period of about 2 minutes ( might have been shorter) I saw 4 aircraft takeoff from runway 24L. (3) SWA 737 and (1 )AA A300( I believe) .
It was truly impressive in my eyes. The second the aircraft on takeoff slightly lifted from the runway, one started it's take off roll. Bang Bang Bang. It was cool.It was about 2pm on a Saturday.
Does this happen often? What are some of the reasons it does and doesn't happen?, barring the runway being blocked.

Sorry for being so naive.

HWTH
 
COERJ145
Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Thread starter):
AA A300

Probably a 762/763 or a 777, AFIK AA operates no A300s from LAX.

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Thread starter):
Does this happen often? What are some of the reasons it does and doesn't happen?, barring the runway being blocked.

Possibly strong headwinds would cause shorter t/o rolls(can someone confirm this?).
 
VHXLR8
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:58 pm

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:55 am

It also depends a lot on how heavy the aircraft is, and how far it is to be flying. A short flight need less fuel (lowering weight), and a lightly loaded flight also needs less fuel, so if you have a lightly loaded aircraft operating a short flight; you're looking at a VERY light aircraft which can take off very fast. I've seen 747s look like they're almost jumping off the runway when they takeoff light!! Also, last week, I was on a ferry flight (767 SYD-MEL), and takeoff roll was incredibly short.

On the other end of the spectrum, watch a fully-loaded 747 taking off from LAX bound for Australia, and you'll wonder if it's ever going to get off the ground!! Throw some high humidity into the equation and you feel like you should be shouting brace commands after about 90 seconds off takeoff!!!! (HNL and SIN are bad for this!)
 
HeyWhaTheHay
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:29 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:21 pm

Thats for all the info , guys. I'm still learning.

Kind of brings up another question, regarding relative weight of an aircraft.

I know that SWA has tons of flights a day the LAS, at some times of the day leaving every 20-30 minutes it seems. Do they sometimes fly the same aircraft back and forth LAX-LAS then LAS-LAX ? If so, do they fuel the aircraft after every flight? Or, since it's such a short flight, do they just keep the tanks "half" full, to keep them light? Or is there a specific amount they HAVE to be carry? Is it based on how heavy the passengers and baggage/cargo is also?

Sorry for all the questions, but if ya don't ask sometimes, ya won't learn anything  Smile


HWTH
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Thread starter):
Does this happen often? What are some of the reasons it does and doesn't happen?, barring the runway being blocked.

Being a LAX regular and talking to some ATC's, i can tell you the following reasons

These fast takeoffs are safe and legal to my understanding after talking to some ATC's. First of all the aircraft in front needs to be 1NM ahead and already rotating, then and only then the following aircraft can be cleared for takeoff. It happens quite often during rushour at LAX around the mid-afternoon period and it is quite amazing to watch, albeit this procedure can only occur when visibility is great enough so that the two aircraft can maintain visual separation. I believe that this occurs at many major airports as this is a necessity with hundreds of thousands of movements each year.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
threepoint
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Reply 3):
If so, do they fuel the aircraft after every flight? Or, since it's such a short flight, do they just keep the tanks "half" full, to keep them light?

This depends on a number of variables such as the economy of flying excessive fuel throughout the day (which increases weight, thus increases fuel burn), the price of fuel at various airports, etc. Much like courier companies for example, often the amount each airline will carry in fuel is proprietary information that they are not fond of sharing. All things being equal, the preference is to fly with only the fuel necessary to perform the mission and maximise the payload (passengers & cargo) to keep revenues as high as possible.

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Reply 3):
Or is there a specific amount they HAVE to be carry?

For commercial flights IFR (flying by reference to cockpit instruments - almost every single commercial flight you're likely to take), the requirements state that each plane must take off with enough fuel to fly to the destination based upon current and forecast weather conditions, execute a missed approach (go through all the maneuvers to land but not actually touch down (poor weather is the chief reason) then divert to a stated alternate airport and then still have enough fuel onboard to fly for 45 minutes at cruise power.

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Reply 3):
Is it based on how heavy the passengers and baggage/cargo is also?

Absolutely, but this affects longhaul flights more so than the 'typical' shorter hops that SWA fly. Aircraft flying near the upper limits of their range find that they often have to lessen the load (fewer passengers and/or less cargo) in order to carry the required fuel to get to the destination without overloading the aircraft.

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Reply 3):
Sorry for all the questions, but if ya don't ask sometimes, ya won't learn anything

Keep asking. It's amazing what you can pick up on this and other forums.

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Thread starter):
Sorry for being so naive.

Not at all. Every member of this website at one point didn't know a single thing about aviation.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:58 pm

There is also the factor of shotgunning the departure vectors for spacing. If you were to listen to the tower controller, I bet he is giving them all different initial departure headings as much as possible. 10 degrees turns into a lot of separation quickly. And keep in mind that they are likely going to be the 1000 feet apart vertically since they are putting on a few thousand a minute.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
HeyWhaTheHay
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:29 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:39 pm

Thabks for ALL the responses. Very informative.

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 6):

There is also the factor of shotgunning the departure vectors for spacing. If you were to listen to the tower controller, I bet he is giving them all different initial departure headings as much as possible. 10 degrees turns into a lot of separation quickly. And keep in mind that they are likely going to be the 1000 feet apart vertically since they are putting on a few thousand a minute.



Would this also be possible, if all the outbound aircraft were headed LAS, PDX, OAK for instance? Do flights that are headed to these destinations ever take off and circle back from the SOUTH?..instead of north in the right direction.

Granted, this heading would probably add to the flight time, which goes against the premise of this


HWTH
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Reply 7):
Would this also be possible, if all the outbound aircraft were headed LAS, PDX, OAK for instance? Do flights that are headed to these destinations ever take off and circle back from the SOUTH?..instead of north in the right direction

My LAX experience is generally confined to several routes, FAT to the north and either ORD, DFW, STL or an east coast airport. For FAT, we always make an immediate right turn to the north after clearing the coastline by about 1 minute or so. The flight usually crosses the Tehachapi mtns and enters the San Joaquin valley just soth or AS Air Limited (Kenya)">SE of BFL. Vectors are either the Shafter or Porterville VOR, then to FAT I believe.

AS far as others, I have alsways made turns to the south, and as the aircraft gained altitiude over the Inland empire and Palm Springs area then made adjustments for the flights to its' destination.

SO, as far as I can tell if it is a northbound domestic flight, it will make a right turn for climbout to cruise.

Hope all this helps...remember no question is a dumb one..we all learn on here!

Have a great weekend!
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Thread starter):
Does this happen often? What are some of the reasons it does and doesn't happen?,

Yes, almost every day. Requires good visual weather conditions and no SoCal Departure Control restrictions. Acft following a non-heavy (or 757) acft only require visual separation (and whatever minimum spacing LAX tower operates under). We get "maintain visual separation" takeoff clearances from most SoCal airports most days.  Wink

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 6):
There is also the factor of shotgunning the departure vectors for spacing. If you were to listen to the tower controller, I bet he is giving them all different initial departure headings as much as possible.

Probably not with this close of spacing between aircraft. LAX departure procedures are specific and LAX Tower will simply instruct pilots to maintain visual separation with the acft ahead of them.

Quoting HeyWhaTheHay (Reply 7):
Do flights that are headed to these destinations ever take off and circle back from the SOUTH?..instead of north in the right direction.

No. Circling climbouts are for eastbound departures. North, south and west departures fly over the water, then turn north, south or "on course" to the west at relatively low altitudes compared to the LOOP or LAX (climbing circle) departures to the east.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:48 am

For its limited ground size and outrageous demands on incoming/outgoing/travelling over flights, LAX is stunning. You'd think an airport with four runways (okay, three, but that'll be back to four very soon!!) wouldn't be so congested, but it is. But the operations that are in place are amazing. To me it's the equivalent of multi-tasking like an octopus.

As I understand it, WN only flies their jets with enough fuel to reach their destination and alternate, plus a small reserve, the minimum amount mandated. You probably saw a very lightly loaded plane taking off, I'm sure!!

Isn't that In&Out Burger the greatest?  cloudnine 
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
RP TPA
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 1999 9:40 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 8):
For FAT, we always make an immediate right turn to the north after clearing the coastline by about 1 minute or so.



Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 8):
SO, as far as I can tell if it is a northbound domestic flight, it will make a right turn for climbout to cruise.

Sounds like the GORMAN4 departure. Here's the chart:
http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/LAX/DP/GORMAN+FOUR/pdf

You basically fly runway heading until south of Santa Monica, then ATC turns you north to the Gorman VOR. I've flown this several times on VATSIM, never in real life. But since I did fly it on VATSIM, it makes me qualified to talk about it.
 cool 
 
deltamike172
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2001 2:52 pm

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:18 am

Regardless of the situation, the minimum separation for successive departures on the same runway is 6000 and airborne. Once the first plane is 6000 feet down and lifted off, the second departure is cleared to depart, assuming the second flight isn't faster, there isn't any wake turbulence rules to apply, and headings can be used to ensure 3 miles/1000 feet separation 1 minute after departure. In this case, the heavy departing behind a large allows the 6000 rule to be used.

Ground controllers will do their best to sequence departures in a certain order to get the smaller or faster planes out first, then the heavies if possible. Obviously, if its busy, someone has to be behind the heavy.

Additionally, if the second departure isn't given a Position and hold instruction, the tower controller can actually clear the second plane for takeoff from the taxiway before the 6000 feet is established, with the assumption that by the time the second plane is lined up and applying takeoff power, the proper separation is obtained.

DM
 
HeyWhaTheHay
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:29 am

RE: Fast Take Offs At LAX

Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
Isn't that In&Out Burger the greatest?

Isn't that In&Out Burger the greatest?

Heck ya ! One of the required "4 food groups" I do believe  Smile



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
As I understand it, WN only flies their jets with enough fuel to reach their destination and alternate, plus a small reserve, the minimum amount mandated. You probably saw a very lightly loaded plane taking off, I'm sure!!

Since that saturday, I''ve seen a few SWA planes literally JUMP off the runway. They are still perfectly visable across the horizon, when they lift off. ( most in my experience disapear untill only the tail is visable, then start there climb). Of course, this is just from and " In N Out" point of view  Smile They must have JUST had the minimum of fuel....Or some light packers  Wink


Question about SWA......

When they took over quite a bit of LAX Terminal 1...Did they do so because of what looks like a very advantages position for a short haul airline? Being right next to 24L, they can just push back, and hit the gas. Thats got to be an advantage for an airlien that has such tight turn around times, and what must be tight "margins" Is that the case? Or was terminal 1 just available?


Again, thanks for puttin up with me. I've learned SO much from this site !

HWTH