UnitedTristar
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UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:10 am

Does anyone know why they started this with a 777?

I think it would have made more since to upgrade one of their 767 flights such as ZRH/MUC/BRU/(GRU maybe not possible due to scheduling) and use the 767 to establish the route.

Doesn't it make more since to make more money on an existing route and take a smaller plane on a route that will likely loose money to begin with as they establish them selfs in the market (as almost all new routes do).

My thoughts:

- There is sufficient cargo demand to push the 777 over the 767

- They are in competition with some one where the product of a 767 is not competitive (more the other routes)

- Some one did not see any finical advantage to putting the larger aircraft on an existing route and instead of training the existing staff at one of the current UA station and then have to train the FCO station personnel they just figured that they can get away only training one staff.

- The range economics of the 767 with payload restrictions wouldn't be as good as the 777

- They see more premium demand for FCO and needed the F/C seats

I just don't know. I am always glad to see UA expanding but this one confused me.

-m

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AeroWesty
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:33 am

Lots of answers to those questions in this previous thread on it when the service was announced:
UA Starts IAD-FCO April 1 2007 (by Panamair Oct 19 2006 in Civil Aviation)
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UnitedTristar
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Lots of answers to those questions in this previous thread on it when the service was announced:

Yes.

Thank you...I had seen that one before I started this thread. It has a few guesses but I was hoping some one had a more definitive answer.

-m

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LAXintl
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:36 am

No guarantee of profitability, however many flights are already heavily booked, with some days even oversold in economy thru the summer. Certainly proves there was demand for the flight.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
nonrev
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:57 am

Will become 767 in fullness of time
 
ARGinLON
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:19 am

As you said, scheduling issues when rotating airplanes may result in an a/c getting priority over another one.
 
AADC10
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:26 pm

Don't forget that there is a large difference in CASM between the 767 and 777. If UA can keep the 772 near filled, it would keep the relative cost down. It can also carry LD-3s. Still, after the summer travel season, they may downguage if they find a better route to use bigger plane. However the former IAD-MXP flight was usually operated with the 772 all year.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 6):
If UA can keep the 772 near filled, it would keep the relative cost down.

Agreed. Wouldn't a 767 have more cost for this route?

MCOflyer
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ContinentalEWR
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:45 pm

United has a code share with Star Alliance partner, Air One, which flies a number of routes from Rome-Fiumicino. That may be why they are putting a 777 on this route. That said, ZRH is also a Star hub, with more connection opportunities offered by LX over Air One at FCO, and the IAD-ZRH flight is a 767-300ER. FCO is a leisure market, with much less in the way of business travel. I would suspect the route will be downgraded to a 763 for the Winter 2007/8 season.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 8):
That said, ZRH is also a Star hub, with more connection opportunities offered by LX over Air One at FCO, and the IAD-ZRH flight is a 767-300ER

yes...which is exactly why I think ZRH would have been a better fit for the 777

-m

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jfk777
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:06 am

Wahington to Rome with a 777 seems too much, but then they are the only ones on the route. Alitalia stopped flying to IAD in 2005. There seem to be better UA markets for a 777, UA may have too many 777A's which can't cross the Pacific or fly from the west coast to Europe so it could may any number of factors. If any one knows how many UA 777's are A or B's I would appreciate it.
 
cba
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 8):
I would suspect the route will be downgraded to a 763 for the Winter 2007/8 season.

Most likely true. Although the demand in J won't be as great as it is for other European routes, if UA can fill Y and most importantly the cargo hold, the route will be a money maker.
 
N1120A
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:47 am

Aside from the fact that United has a rather limited 763ER fleet anyway, there could well be range issues in Rome's hot summers for the 763ER on the westbound.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MCOflyer
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
there could well be range issues in Rome's hot summers for the 763ER on the westbound.

I thought UA's 763ER's could do that run easily. If DL can do JFK-SVO, then UA can do IAD-FCO. Aren't UA's powered by PW 4062 or is it PW4060?

MCOflyer
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N1120A
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 13):
I thought UA's 763ER's could do that run easily. If DL can do JFK-SVO, then UA can do IAD-FCO.

SVO is a whole different set of operating conditions. FCO gets very hot in the summer and can do bad things to aircraft weights.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 13):
Aren't UA's powered by PW 4062 or is it PW4060?

Their international 3-class aircraft are PW4060 powered (the crippled 2-class domestic/Hawai'i aircraft are PW4052 powered).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:26 am

It was a surpirise to me that they placed a 777 for this route but Laxintl has stated I understand that loads are looking pretty healthy already......yields however are another matter, lets hope they get some bums on seats in F & J, and not just upgrades!
 
roseflyer
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 8):
United has a code share with Star Alliance partner, Air One, which flies a number of routes from Rome-Fiumicino. That may be why they are putting a 777 on this route

UA heavily favours LH as their star alliance partner for connections in Europe. UA and LH share revenue, so any connecting traffic will route through FRA (or MUC) if at all possible. BMI, SAS, Swiss and others don't get anywhere near as much connecting traffic. UA codeshares to a multitude of destinations from FRA and very few from other European airports.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
UA may have too many 777A's which can't cross the Pacific or fly from the west coast to Europe so it could may any number of factors

I think that could be a factor. UA has the low MTOW 772s that have limited range. Yes there are lots of flights to FRA and LHR on 777s, but those routes might demand too much cargo and thus a lower weight 777 is best for FCO. FCO probably can fill the larger economy cabin.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
there could well be range issues in Rome's hot summers for the 763ER on the westbound.

UA operates summer LHR-LAX service on 763ERs, which is 950 miles longer. Rome can be hot, but it is at sea level, so I don't think that could be a reason.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
N1120A
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 18):
UA operates summer LHR-LAX service on 763ERs, which is 950 miles longer. Rome can be hot, but it is at sea level, so I don't think that could be a reason.

TWA used to have trouble at times with their 763ERs on ATH-JFK, which is similar to FCO-IAD.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ual777
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:45 am

The reason is that IAD is UA's gateway to Europe.

IAD-AMS 1x777 Daily
IAD-CDG 1x777 Daily
IAD-FRA 1x744 Daily
IAD-FRA 1x777 Daily
IAD-FRA 1x763 Daily
IAD-MUC 1x777 Daily
IAD-ZRH 1x763 Daily
IAD-FCO 1x777 Daily
IAD-LHR 2x777 Daily
IAD-LHR 2x763 Daily

They have 1 744, 7 777s, and 4 763s leaving IAD and going across the Atlantic daily. This doesn't include KWI which is 3 or 4x weekly.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:49 am

They also fly IAD-BRU with a 763... personally, I am surprised that flight isn't a 777.

NS
 
jfk777
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:25 am

IAD and UA has served each other well, being in Washington with all the international traffic involving the nation's business, no airline until UA served it as it needed to be. PAN AM has IAD to LHR and FRA but that was a 2 747 a day operation with limited results. Dulles always deserved a hub airline given the huge and rich population of northern Virginia.
 
nycfly75
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:33 am

Does anyone see the possibility of an ORD-FCO flight in the near future?
 
panam330
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 23):
Does anyone see the possibility of an ORD-FCO flight in the near future?

Not with the shortage of aircraft UA currently has, unless they play with their schedules or cut a longhaul route. AA flies ORD-FCO currently (seasonal?), and FCO isn't exactly the highest-yielding destination, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
rwsea
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:28 am

To answer the original question, the answer has to lie in aircraft utilization. Given that UA's long-haul fleet is very stretched, they were probably able to work in the IAD-FCO service due to all of the 777 service that already exists (including the new NRT and KWI service). The 763s are much more limited, and there was probably less "slack" time to rotate one to FCO.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:31 am

The fact that Rome is hot in the summer has no bearing on a 767's performance. DL, CO, AC, and for a time, even US have operated 767's or still do on this route and there is no problem. Half of AZ's long haul fleet is made up of 767's. I don't think that is the reason.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Aside from the fact that United has a rather limited 763ER fleet anyway, there could well be range issues in Rome's hot summers for the 763ER on the westbound.

I don't think that is an issue. AA flies 763ER's during the hot summer months from FCO to ORD, which is 800 or so miles farther.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
There seem to be better UA markets for a 777, UA may have too many 777A's which can't cross the Pacific or fly from the west coast to Europe so it could may any number of factors.

I thought all 772's could at least do the LAX-LHR route. If MD-11's can fly Europe to west coast I'd be very surprised if a 772 could not, even if it is an A.

[Edited 2007-03-26 04:58:56]
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BA
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
TWA used to have trouble at times with their 763ERs on ATH-JFK, which is similar to FCO-IAD.

Athens gets a lot hotter than Rome on average.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
bayareablue
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:37 pm

They must have been guessing correctly about a/c size. Summer is a high demand to Europe. I am going to Europe and on the return, I go from FCO to IAD to SFO. I looked on united website and Y class is completely full on the 777 from FCO to IAD. Seems like a pretty popular route to me.
 
cba
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):

TWA used to have trouble at times with their 763ERs on ATH-JFK, which is similar to FCO-IAD.

As previously stated, ATH gets a lot hotter than FCO. Also, I have not heard of DL having any problems with ATH-JFK on their 763's.

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 24):
The fact that Rome is hot in the summer has no bearing on a 767's performance.

FCO gets hot, but we're not talking as hot as DXB, PHX, LAS and so on. I doubt that performance is the reason for the 777 allotment on the route.

Regarding IAD as an intl. hub for UA, it's a great market. Albeit a pretty hefty drive/cab ride from the DC Metro area, it pulls from a rather large O&D market of DC and Northern VA. I'll also throw in Maryland - Montgomery and Prince George counties. BWI is also close, however IAD has much more intl. service and connecting opportunities.
 
OOer
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 28):
As previously stated, ATH gets a lot hotter than FCO.

Not really...

Avg. high temps

Rome = July 91
Aug 90

Athens = July 91
Aug 91
 
flyyul
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:28 am

FCO is a volume market. Carriers tend to send their highest capacity airplanes with smaller premium cabins. So How does UA intend to sell the larger F/J cabins?

I suspect that this might be a payload issue. Otherwise, BRU/ZRH would most certainly be the better fit.
 
The777Man
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:41 am

Also note that the flight will be flown by a 777 in the Pacific configuration; F10 C45 Y198. Fewer seats in F and C then the more common 777s UA usually uses at IAD.

I think that it works better to rotate the fleet this way. Possibly the aircraft going to FCO is the one coming from NRT in the afternoon ?

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
flyyul
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:55 am

Eastbound this make's sense as the 777 arrives from NRT at 1510 and can go to FCO at 1815.

The arrival is at 1500 from FCO, so the plane would continue a rotation to LAX/LHR or DEN (the latter unlikely unless mtce).
 
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OA412
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 28):
As previously stated, ATH gets a lot hotter than FCO. Also, I have not heard of DL having any problems with ATH-JFK on their 763's.

Or ATH-ATL for that matter which is quite a bit longer than FCO-IAD.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
mymiles2go
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 32):
Eastbound this make's sense as the 777 arrives from NRT at 1510 and can go to FCO at 1815.

The arrival is at 1500 from FCO, so the plane would continue a rotation to LAX/LHR or DEN (the latter unlikely unless mtce).

That's just the normal 5PM bank time. Virtually all of the internationals for that bank arrive between 3PM and 3:30PM. And virtually all leave between 5PM and 6:30PM.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
If any one knows how many UA 777's are A or B's I would appreciate it.

19 777-200As, 6 of which are configured for domestic ops (N768UA-N781UA, N210-215UA x. N770UA)
32 777Bs. (N782UA-N799UA, x. N789UA, N790UA & N204UA, N206UA, N209UA, N216UA-N229UA)

I

Quoting Cba (Reply 28):
Regarding IAD as an intl. hub for UA, it's a great market. Albeit a pretty hefty drive/cab ride from the DC Metro area, it pulls from a rather large O&D market of DC and Northern VA. I'll also throw in Maryland - Montgomery and Prince George counties. BWI is also close, however IAD has much more intl. service and connecting opportunities.

They also pull in a lot of W. Virginia, Annapolis and Richmond traffic.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
The 763s are much more limited, and there was probably less "slack" time to rotate one to FCO.

I believe this is the most likely reason. More 763s will be going out of service as 2007 progresses to get the new Business (and first?) product installed. The international 767s are based out of ORD and IAD and are very limited due to the international and domestic (ORD/IAD, SFO, SEA, LAX, DEN) routes that they fly, especially out of IAD.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
Given that UA's long-haul fleet is very stretched, they were probably able to work in the IAD-FCO service due to all of the 777 service that already exists (including the new NRT and KWI service).

This could be true, but I would imagine FCO would only get a 777B on occassion (as NRT and KWI require ER models). I'll have to check at work next week to see where Dispatch sends that 777 before and after it goes to KWI. NRT perhaps?

>>>Am I the only one here who thinks that there might be politics involved? Perhaps for this route authority, either the US or the Italian government requires a 777. I think this could be a strong possibility if UA is relying on government related traffic to keep this route busy during the winter.
 
rwsea
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 35):
>>>Am I the only one here who thinks that there might be politics involved? Perhaps for this route authority, either the US or the Italian government requires a 777. I think this could be a strong possibility if UA is relying on government related traffic to keep this route busy during the winter.

No, politics isn't involved. No route authority is needed. And US government traffic would fly the route by default anyway given that it's a non-stop flight from the nation's capital.
 
gigneil
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 20):
no airline until UA served it as it needed to be.

United does not serve Dulles to a fraction of its potential. Adding Asian routes is fun and all, and certainly Dulles supports them, but it could support easily double or triple its transatlantic schedule.

NS
 
BDL2DCA
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
but it could support easily double or triple its transatlantic schedule.

Uh? With what aircraft?

In order for a transatlantic route to be profitable, it needs a significant amount of O&D traffic. There are very few cities in Europe which would fill 50% of a 767 with O&D daily that are not yet served from IAD. Unfortunately for UA, even if they wanted to configure a handful of their 757s for transatlantic ops, IAD is just that much further from Europe that the only thing 757s would get them is more UK and Iberian cities. That's hardly "triple."
146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
 
AA777
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RE: UA's New FCO Service...Why 777?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
Alitalia stopped flying to IAD in 2005

Not true... Alitalia stopped serving IAD sometime in 2006. I remember seeing their 767 at IAD sometime last summer.

-AA777

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