BA
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Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:52 am

I was just browsing the airline gates map and I'm shocked to see that Air Canada is moving to one of the international gates on Concourse A in DEN starting next month from its current gate on Concourse B with United Airlines:



As a result, Mexicana is being moved from gate A43 to A39, a gate also used by Frontier.

Why is AC being moved to Concourse A, let alone an international gate? AC flies to DEN from YYZ (3x daily) and YUL (1x daily) and both of these airports are equipped with US border preclearance facilities, so these flights do not clear immigration and customs in the US.
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airfrnt
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:03 am

I suspect as time goes on, those two gates will be shared among the Star Alliance Carriers. With the news that UA is looking at LHR to DEN service, they will have to have access to a A terminal gate for Customs and Immigration access. That is unless the EU airports start putting in pre-clearence areas (which is not a insane idea).

It also may be indicitive that AC plans on some traffic to non Canadian destinations. Does the Canadian openskies agreement allow DEN to LHR routing? How many slots does AC have in LHR?
 
pacifica
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:20 am

Or maybe Air Canada is considering adding service to DEN from a Canadian airport without preclearance? Although that is highly unlikely if they don't even serve DEN from the likes of YYC, YEG and YVR...but it is a possibility.
 
BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):
I suspect as time goes on, those two gates will be shared among the Star Alliance Carriers. With the news that UA is looking at LHR to DEN service, they will have to have access to a A terminal gate for Customs and Immigration access.

Perhaps this is very much the reason, but still, there isn't really any reason for AC to use them.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):
That is unless the EU airports start putting in pre-clearence areas (which is not a insane idea).

I'm not sure if the EU would accept this unless a reciprocal agreement is reached. As in, pre-clearance areas for the EU in US airports.

Also, it would require quite a bit of infrastructure changes done at EU airports if such an agreement was accepted.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):
It also may be indicitive that AC plans on some traffic to non Canadian destinations. Does the Canadian openskies agreement allow DEN to LHR routing? How many slots does AC have in LHR?

I don't think the new open skies agreement covers cabotage rights. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though...
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threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting BA (Reply 3):
I don't think the new open skies agreement covers cabotage rights.

It doesn't, but this (DEN-LHR on AC) is not cabotage. Cabotage would be AC serving another US city from DEN directly.
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sebring
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:05 am

Since Frontier also has an international gate in addition to its domestic gates, is it not possible that AC's international presence on the chart does not represent the totality of its operations at DEN? Might it not still be using UA domestic gates? With preclearance and code-sharing, there is no way AC is moving into a situation where its customers from pre-cleared flights will also be post-cleared.
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):
is it not possible that AC's international presence on the chart does not represent the totality of its operations at DEN? Might it not still be using UA domestic gates?

One would certainly hope so, as the Star connections to and from UA would otherwise be unnecessarily complicated under the new arrangement.
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N1120A
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:23 am

Edited because I read something wrong.

[Edited 2007-03-25 18:24:49]
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RedTailDTW
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:43 am

DL must have given up one of their gates for AirTran, hmmm.



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Cubsrule
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting BA (Reply 3):
but still, there isn't really any reason for AC to use them.

If UA needs an additional international gate for the LHR flight, that gate will sit unused for much of the day. If scheduling permits, it may be advantageous from a logistic point of view for AC to move to A.

Here's why... all bags arriving from Canada and connecting to a UA flight must be inspected by the TSA. If the only place that that can be done is at the main terminal, it will save UA some time to have to take those bags less far.
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BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 4):
It doesn't, but this (DEN-LHR on AC) is not cabotage. Cabotage would be AC serving another US city from DEN directly.

You're right. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 8):
DL must have given up one of their gates for AirTran, hmmm.

AirTran is moving to a gate currently used by Sun Country.
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easyfriday2000
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:07 am

Well i heard that the only reason we are moving to terminal a in DEN is because we are changing ground handlers there. Whoever ground handles LH will be taking care of us in DEN. But there might be more reasons than that.
 
N1120A
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Here's why... all bags arriving from Canada and connecting to a UA flight must be inspected by the TSA. If the only place that that can be done is at the main terminal, it will save UA some time to have to take those bags less far.

For what reason? They are already inspected.
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BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
If UA needs an additional international gate for the LHR flight, that gate will sit unused for much of the day.

Good point, but this would only be true if this additional gate is being leased for a long-term basis by UA.

There are no long-term leases for gates A37 (British Airways), A39 (Frontier and soon Mexicana), A41 (Lufthansa), and A43. They are owned by the city and any airline can use them.

This is how Ted operates its Mexico flights. They use one of the city gates.
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BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Here's why... all bags arriving from Canada and connecting to a UA flight must be inspected by the TSA. If the only place that that can be done is at the main terminal, it will save UA some time to have to take those bags less far.

If this is the case, does it mean that UA's Canada flights will be moved to these gates as well? If so, there will be a lot of congestion on these two gates for Air Canada's four daily flights, Lufthansa's two daily flights (which have long turn around times), and United's 17 daily flights.

That's 23 daily flights on two gates, with two of the flights occupying the gates for almost two hours (the Lufthansa flights).
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Cubsrule
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:06 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):

For what reason? They are already inspected.

Ask the government...

Seriously, you've got me, and I know it causes a lot of bags to misconnect at ORD. I would imagine that the situation at DEN is not grossly different.
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FLYACYYZ
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:06 am

AC at one point was almost exclusively handled by United, at all US stations where their own staff was not in place. Over the last year, there was been a sizeable departure from UAL as the handling agent. Not sure whether it was a case of dissatisfaction or the almighty $$$$ and finding alternate arrangements at a more competitive price. I have my own theories.......  Wow!
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airbazar
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting BA (Reply 3):
I'm not sure if the EU would accept this unless a reciprocal agreement is reached. As in, pre-clearance areas for the EU in US airports.
Also, it would require quite a bit of infrastructure changes done at EU airports if such an agreement was accepted.

I'm not sure why the EU would demand reciprocity. They're already setup to handle inbound international connecting traffic without forcing anyone to clear immigration/customs at the first airport. The reason the US allows pre-clearance is because the costs involved in equiping every single airport in the US with FIS and customs facilities.

Also, EU airport would not need all that much in terms of infrastructure changes because they already do immigration screening on every outbound passenger, and airports that offer non-stop service to the US already have an additional security checkpoint which could be easily converted into a full immigration checkpoint. The biggest problem would be how to handle customs for connecting passengers, and for that I don't really have an easy answer  Smile
 
BDL2DCA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 16):
Over the last year, there was been a sizeable departure from UAL as the handling agent.

I thought that part of ACE's investment in the US/HP merger also included a contract for US to ground-handle AC (as well as AC Jazz picking up some US express routes to Canada). Why they moved to A and not C? probably because C is full-to-the-gills.
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easyfriday2000
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:29 am

I know we just changed from United to Us airways in Bos. And i could not say if it is cheaper but i know we were having problems with united ground handling us in BOS. And i do know that the ontime performance in Den for air canada always falls pretty close to dead last in the US. So i would think it has a lot to do with performance. Just my  twocents   twocents 
 
FLYACYYZ
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AC//Back To Madrid?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:45 am

I'm not aware that any passenger check-in functions have actually been transferred to USAirways. I believe the primary transfer of pax functions has been awarded to Penauille-Servisair.

Virtually 100% of AC feed at DEN is United Airlines. Having to make the terminal/concourse switch is going to add time to connectivity. There has to be a good story here.

[Edited 2007-03-26 19:48:22]
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airfrnt
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 20):
I'm not aware that any passenger check-in functions have actually been transferred to USAirways. I believe the primary transfer of pax functions has been awarded to Penauille-Servisair.

Virtually 100% of AC feed at DEN is United Airlines. Having to make the terminal/concourse switch is going to add time to connectivity. There has to be a good story here.

There is a pretty healthy O&D market here as well. I have never not been on the AC YYZ to DEN and not had it sold out.
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 21):
I have never not been on the AC YYZ to DEN and not had it sold out.

Wow, a triple negative. Do you mean your Toronto-Denver flights have always been full?
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airfrnt
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:41 am

Sheepish grin.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 22):

Wow, a triple negative. Do you mean your Toronto-Denver flights have always been full?

Yep.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
The biggest problem would be how to handle customs for connecting passengers, and for that I don't really have an easy answer

They could do it just like Ireland, but that really doesn't solve the problem, as the planes still have to land at an FIS-capable gate. Still, some terminals (CDG 2B-- admittedly not a terminal that handles widebodies or US flights-- comes to mind) are set up such that you clear outbound immigration with luggage, so immigration, customs, and then bag check is not out of the question.
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iahflyer
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:00 am

MAybe they just wanted a gate closer to checkin? Do they use Pea Shooters or Big Birds, if the flights are with pea shooters, why make a few passengers walk a long way?
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UnknownUser
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:19 am

AC switched baggage handlers in DEN. It used to be handled by UA, but is now handled by IAS (Integrated Airline Services).

IAS also handles LH, MX, FL, B6 and YX in DEN. It would make no sense for IAS to have a small set-up on B just to do a few flights. The IAS offices are located in A by the B6 gate.

To clarify since someone brought it up. FL moved to gate C46 from C49 to make way for WN. Good story behind this: FL used to be in C41. In fact, that was not even a year ago. Of course, WN grew very quickly and City of Denver pushed FL out for WN. Now WN has C49 and C concourse will be expanded out just for WN. (Hint hint, lots more WN growth at DEN.) Well, FL originally was going to be put on a city (public use, if you will) gate down at C33. (As you see by the map above, it is not assigned to anyone.) DEN's reasoning was that FL did not have enough flights (4 at the time) to justify having a dedicated gate. That is odd seeing as how YX only has 3-4 themselves. Now FL has 5 daily ATL flights, so at least they can have their own gate with their own computers and what not. I am surprised a MDW flight was not created as that 5th flight, since ATL has become a market very saturated with capacity. The only times I have seen DEN-ATL filled are in the normal peak times, where I am sure it could handle 7-8 flights.

More info on IAS: http://www.iasair.com/index.asp?cid=home
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BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
They're already setup to handle inbound international connecting traffic without forcing anyone to clear immigration/customs at the first airport.

This is true and this is the case for pretty much most of the world.

The reasons why I think the EU wouldn't accept it without reciprocity is for political reasons.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
The reason the US allows pre-clearance is because the costs involved in equiping every single airport in the US with FIS and customs facilities.

True and certainly a wise move. But I believe a US airport still technically needs to be designated an international gateway in order to receive Canada flights.

I remember there was an issue a few years ago when Alaska Airlines wanted to start YVR-SNA. They weren't allowed to because SNA is not designated an international gateway.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
Also, EU airport would not need all that much in terms of infrastructure changes because they already do immigration screening on every outbound passenger, and airports that offer non-stop service to the US already have an additional security checkpoint which could be easily converted into a full immigration checkpoint.

Immigration screening is not so much the issue. As you mentioned, the EU already does immigration screening on every outbound passenger and last time I flew out of FRA, they had set up small movable desks located right before the gate area for US flights to check passports right after the additional security screening.

The issue is customs which as I'm sure you know, does take up some room, not to mention machinery such as the large x-ray machines operated by the Department of Agriculture.

This is why I don't see it very feasible.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
They could do it just like Ireland, but that really doesn't solve the problem, as the planes still have to land at an FIS-capable gate.

Yes, and the reason is because in Ireland, only immigration checks are performed, not customs.

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 20):
Virtually 100% of AC feed at DEN is United Airlines. Having to make the terminal/concourse switch is going to add time to connectivity. There has to be a good story here.

This is my concern as well and I wonder how it will affect AC's performance in DEN.

AC has had an up and down history in DEN.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting BA (Reply 27):

This is my concern as well and I wonder how it will affect AC's performance in DEN.

It won't at all. It's a quick train ride, and it's not like most travelers will check into it before booking.
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briboy
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:07 am

Is there a RCC in A?
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BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
It won't at all. It's a quick train ride, and it's not like most travelers will check into it before booking.

True, it is just a quick train ride, however, DEN is known for allowing 30 minute connections and I'm not sure if it can be done if the connection requires changing concourses.

Quoting Briboy (Reply 29):
Is there a RCC in A?

Nope, another drawback.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting BA (Reply 30):
True, it is just a quick train ride, however, DEN is known for allowing 30 minute connections and I'm not sure if it can be done if the connection requires changing concourses.

Domestic to AC minimum connect time is 35 minutes

AC to domestic is 1:10.
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FLYACYYZ
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AC//Back To Madrid?

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 27):
AC has had an up and down history in DEN.

In terms of what????

Have operated dozens of flights to/from Denver without a glitch.
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dia77
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 32):
In terms of what????

Have operated dozens of flights to/from Denver without a glitch.

AC has added and dropped flights in the past. They added Montreal about 6 years and dropped it soon after (it started up again a few months ago). AC had 5 daily flights between DEN and YYZ at one point, but now I believe its down to 3. AC used to fly to YVR and YYC from DEN also, but those flights have all switched over to UA.
 
dia77
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 33):
AC had 5 daily flights between DEN and YYZ at one point, but now I believe its down to 3.

Actually it looks like they are back up to 5 on some days, but many of those are operated by ERJs.
 
BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 34):
Actually it looks like they are back up to 5 on some days, but many of those are operated by ERJs.

Two of the flights are operated by UA.
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FLYACYYZ
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:01 pm

Airlines make ongoing adjustments for a variety of commercial and revenue based rationale. It would be like saying that American Airlines who is the largest foreign carrier serving Toronto, and probably operates the highest number of flights to a non-US station, has had an "up and down history".

In years past, they have served JFK, EWR, SJU & SFO. YYZ has seen AA widebody service come and go, and downgauges from mainline to AAEagle service on bread and butter routes like YYZ-LGA, to cite a few examples.

I know this is an extreme example, but AC has maintained an ongoing presence since touching down at DEN. I would presume that relinquishing certain routes has been at the urging of UA and Star Alliance related criteria.
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mariner
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting UnknownUser (Reply 26):
Now WN has C49 and C concourse will be expanded out just for WN. (Hint hint, lots more WN growth at DEN.)

Sorry, not so. Yes, DIA is building an eight gate extension of C, but it is not "just for" Southwest:

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_5519817

Southwest will continue to add flights in Denver this year, but Kelly is hesitant to make a firm commitment on new gates to be built at Denver International Airport. Other airlines may compete for the eight or more additional gates DIA plans to build on Concourse C, where Southwest operates.

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airfrnt
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting BA (Reply 27):

This is my concern as well and I wonder how it will affect AC's performance in DEN.

AC has had an up and down history in DEN.

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to. I am a regular on the YYZ to DEN flights the operate for the last two years, and outside fo a tornado problem at YYZ once, have never had any problems with them.
 
BA
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 38):
I'm not quite sure what you are referring to. I am a regular on the YYZ to DEN flights the operate for the last two years, and outside fo a tornado problem at YYZ once, have never had any problems with them.

As DIA77 pointed out, AC has had a history of adding flights/routes and quickly discontinuing them.

YEG and YWG were operated by what was then one of AC's regional subsidaries, Air BC (now integrated into Air Canada Jazz), and these routes were relatively quickly discontinued, especially YWG. YEG lasted longer but was eventually dropped as well.

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And as DIA77 mentioned, they started YUL about 6 or 7 years back (forgot exactly when) and in less than a year discontinued it.

The YYZ route has stayed pretty much stable. It's been 3x daily for as long as I can remember, though it operated on A319s before UA started up its own flights and is now operated by ERJ-190s except in the summer when some flights are upgraded to A319s and A320s.
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JoePatroni
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:38 am

Well, we're all familiar with that "rumor mill" but I've heard (from a reliable source) that in this case, UA dropped the AC contract. AC was left to find another ground handler for DEN. As it was, AC was having a few problems with UA in DEN especially when it came to on-time performance.

DEN is the only station in which AC uses IAS as a ground handler. A mix of LH and IAS employees handle passenger check-in and OPS.

I think AC will be really happy with this new ground handler in DEN.

JP
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robsawatsky
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):

For what reason? They are already inspected.

Ask the government...

Seriously, you've got me, and I know it causes a lot of bags to misconnect at ORD. I would imagine that the situation at DEN is not grossly different.

I do not believe that bags originating from a Canadian airport that have undergone the pre-clearance procedures require re-inspection in the US before continuing onward. If that was the case wouldn't it also apply to CDN-US direct flights that make an intermediate US stop before carrying on to the final US destination, which defintely does not happen?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Air Canada Moving To Concourse A In DEN

Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 41):
I do not believe that bags originating from a Canadian airport that have undergone the pre-clearance procedures require re-inspection in the US before continuing onward. If that was the case wouldn't it also apply to CDN-US direct flights that make an intermediate US stop before carrying on to the final US destination, which defintely does not happen?

The TSA has to inspect them. Again, I don't know why (and I don't honestly know what the story is with intermediate US stops). I'm not sure what to do to convince you, but if you go to ORD and walk between Terminals 1 and 2, you can see the (well-marked) belt that bags from Canada must go to TSA on down on the ramp.
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