macilree
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A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:33 pm

Assuming that the EU-US "open skies" air transport agreement is signed, clearly runway slots at LHR will be more keenly sought after than ever. I have just been reading speculation on the Flight International blog that BA may decide to purchase A380 aircraft and obviously the likes of SQ, EK and QF will be looking to operate their A380 aircraft into LHR.

I am also aware that ICAO guidelines for the A380 may require greater time/distance separation from other aircraft during takeoff and landing because of wake turbulence (see ICAO paper from June 2006 but there may be more recent material that I haven't seen). This would seem to imply that existing operators will not simply be able to carryover their slots on a one-for-one basis if they chose to replace existing aircraft with A380 operations. Or is this now a non-issue as Airbus clearly hope it will be (see Airbus media statement)?

Has anyone seen or done any recent analysis of the implications of the use of A380s into LHR on slot numbers and how any reduced number of slots would be (re)allocated? The answer as to how this would be handled may be on the Airports Coordination Limited web site but I haven't found it. Presumably the same issue may arise at other congested major hub airport.

I appreciate that a thread back in May 2006 touched on this issue.

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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:50 pm

They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

During the day, I don't expect any changes, ATC can manage the traffic in a number of ways.
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ikramerica
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:13 pm

Even with the increased spacing, overall capacity increases by about 10% over a 744. I figured it out a while ago. And if the provisional spacing gets reduced over time, the capacity increase over a 744 will be 25-35%.

Of course, cutting F50 and other traffic into LHR would have way more impact on traffic. And it's unclear if carriers with 1 flight would owe any more money for taking up more space. With mixed mode coming soon, overall slots will increase at LHR anyway, and it would make the impact of the A380 spacing less, but still other aircraft would also benefit under mixed mode.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

???

Has it actually met the promised noise standards? I was under the impression it had yet to do so. And personally, hearing a UA 744 land right before the A380 here at LAX, the A380 was no quieter. It actually sounded louder on approach. Just subjective, but we were all shocked that it wasn't as quiet as we expected it would be.
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:41 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):

Has it actually met the promised noise standards? I was under the impression it had yet to do so. And personally, hearing a UA 744 land right before the A380 here at LAX, the A380 was no quieter. It actually sounded louder on approach. Just subjective, but we were all shocked that it wasn't as quiet as we expected it would be.

The promise for arrival was QC2 (92.9 to 95.9 EPNdB) it has exceed the promised and been certified QC 0.5 (86.9 to 89.9 EPNdB) it is a significant reduction below the 744 which is certified in the 95.9 to 98.9 EPNdB range (note these are log scales),

It is certified QC2 for departure, QC0.5 on arrival.
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

When are the curfew hours?

The 787 (and presumably the A350XWB) will also be well within those figures so they could operate 24/7, as well, but I am wondering if those times are desirable enough to passengers to actually want to be used.
 
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
Has it actually met the promised noise standards? (...) Just subjective, but we were all shocked that it wasn't as quiet as we expected it would be

The aircraft is QC 0.5 in London on arrival, when it was originally estimated by Airbus that it would be QC 1.
As a comparison, on departure, the A380 is QC 2 (as the 777, A340-600 and 747-8) and the 747-400 is QC 4.

If you take EPNdB as reference, the A380 will be:
-94 departure (lower than 777 and A340-600)
-89 arrival (lower than 777 and A340-600)

The 747-400 is:
-99 departure
-94 arrival
 
macilree
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:05 pm

I have done a bit more research and found the Flight International report of comments made in a lecture by BA CEO Willie Walsh to the Royal Aeronautical Society on 13 November 2006.

If a one-for-one substitution is not possible I pity the poor schedulers trying to rework LHR slots.

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Bongodog1964
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!
 
Geo772
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):

I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!

No you are right.

Although aircraft do operate at night you can not schedule a departure after 11pm or an arrival before 5am.

If an aircraft is delayed at night then the departure after 11pm has to be done at full power - certainly on the 744 in order to improve initial climb rate. The idea is you make a bit more noise but it goes on for less time.

It is unlikely that the A380 will be treated any differently in this regard.
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vv701
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 8):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):

I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!

No you are right.

Although aircraft do operate at night you can not schedule a departure after 11pm or an arrival before 5am.

No departures are allowed in the 2330 to 0600 hours period. I believe one arrival slot is allocated to BD at 0055 hours on a Saturday. Otherwise arrival slots are only allowed between 0500 and 0600 hours during the night time curfew. These slots are severely restricted in number and are all allocated. Net result is that the only airlines that can schedule arrivals at LHR between 0500 and 0600 hours are BA (with seven daily slots), BD (1 slot), CX (1 slot), MH (1 slot), QF (1 slot), SQ (1 slot), UA (1 slot) and VS (2 slots).

If an aircraft 'arrives' before 0500 (with a slot allocated after that time) I believe landing will be refused except in an emergency. And although the night time curfew ends at 0600 hours, no slots are allocated between 0600 and 0620. This period is reserved for landings of aircraft with slots at or after 0620 that have arrived early. (Such aircraft will be refused landing before 0600.) This raises something I have always wondered about. If an airline has a flight with an LHR arrival slot at or after 0620 and the aircraft habitually is ready for landing before 0620, are ATC going to report it? If so to whom? AML? What happens then?
 
LGAtoIND
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:41 am

I guess that explains why nothing seemed to be going on at LHR when I landed there last month. We flew in on UA958 from ORD, which lands at 0555. I was expecting the airport to be bustling, as it was my first time at LHR, but as we touched down there were barely any other movements I could see going on. That also brings up the question on why UA uses their early slot for the ORD arrival and not the IAD arrival?
 
macilree
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:24 am

Airport Coordination Limited has published a three page Briefing Note: EU-US Open Skies and Access to Heathrow dated 26 March 2007.

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[Edited 2007-04-01 01:33:16]
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LeonB1985
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:02 am

Quite a number of aircraft, specifically bizjets, are able to operate in and out of LHR during the curfew hours, since a fairly recent change to night noise regulations. However, obviously these are ad-hoc flights, as opposed to scheduled services.
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sstsomeday
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.

Will the 747-8 be so restricted? Or do they know yet?
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 7):
I was under the impression that at LHR it was a total shutdown nighttime, regardless of noise levels,I may however be totall wrong !!!

QC4 aircraft are banned, the full requirements are available from the UK department of transport http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/aviation/environmentalissues/nighthgs/

As far as I know there is a set noise quota during the 2300-0600 periods (equivalent to about 15 slots now), based upon current noise requirements, with quieter aircraft such as the 380 coming onto the scene, the number of movements to make the night noise quota increases.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 13):
Will the 747-8 be so restricted? Or do they know yet?

No idea, 380, 787, 350XWB should all be in the same boat, 748 may have trouble reaching the 4% climb gradient.
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theginge
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:05 pm

The period between 0600 & 0700 local is always very busy at LHR, almost every day you will see ATC landing aircraft on both runways as the rest of the days capacity is based on having no ATC delay at 0700L so ATC need to land the arrivals on both runways to make this happen.

As others have said the night movements at LHR are strictly enforced and you can only take off after 2329L with permission of the Airport Ops duty manager, sometimes the wish is granted, sometimes it isn't, it depends on a number of factors. The A380 will be no different to this.

The restrictions on movements between 2329L and 0600L are lifted on some occasions, for instance severe ATC delays in the evening caused by things like fog which means there are significant numbers of planes that are waiting to depart after 2330 through no fault of the airline. This also applies in the morning during fog as when LVP's are in force an aircraft shceduled to land after 0600L can land before this time without incurring a night movement penalty.

With regards to the A380 and the wake turbulence category I don't think Airport slots as such have anything to do with this, I think a slot is allocated regardless although someone correct me if I am wrong. It is up to ATC to sort out the spacing.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting Macilree (Reply 11):
Airport Coordination Limited has published a three page Briefing Note: EU-US Open Skies and Access to Heathrow dated 26 March 2007

This is very interesting reading. I didn't know that the number of (air transport?) movements in LHR has been capped at 480.000. This basically means there is now growth for room even with mixed mode and the A380 will fly in and out of the place like there's no tomorrow. (LHR had 477.000 total movements in 2006 according to the ACI).

It's also shown in that document that there is no slot to even accomodate like a handful more flights into the airport.

Concerning the number of movements, LHR is already number 3 in Europe (with CDG and FRA having more movements) and in a few years' time we can expect MAD, AMS and MUC to have more annual movements than LHR.

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macilree
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Theginge (Reply 15):
With regards to the A380 and the wake turbulence category I don't think Airport slots as such have anything to do with this, I think a slot is allocated regardless although someone correct me if I am wrong. It is up to ATC to sort out the spacing.

Surely if A380 takeoffs require an extra minute of spacing and there are a number of A380 departures in a particular hour then runway capacity per hour must be reduced and slots could not be carried over on a one-for-one basis by existing operators wishing to switch to using A380s at LHR.

This leads one to wonder whether A380 operators will need to scramble for fractions of existing slots or reduce frequency. This would seem to be a potentially significant factor for BA in making a decision between the A380 and the B747-8 if the latter requires the same separation as a B747-400.

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vv701
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:27 pm

There seems to be some confusion between the definitions of the 'night period' and 'night quota period' at LHR.

The 'night' period is from 2300 to 0700 hours. Movements are restricted on the basis of noise levels. In practical terms this means that certain noisy aircraft will not be scheduled to arrive at LHR between 0620 and 0700 hours. (No aircraft are scheduled to arrive between 0600 and 0620 for operational reasons - see Reply 9.)

The 'night quota' period is from 2330 to 0600 hours. During this period (in which the 'night' period restrictions also apply) no departures are allowed and the number of arrivals are numerically restricted to 15 per day in the period 0500 to 0600 hours. (Again see Reply 9 for details.)

The period between 0620 and 0700 - that is the morning period in the 'night' but not the 'night quots' period when scheduled arrivals are allowed - is slot bound.

The net effect of this is that the airlines with landing slots between 0500 and 0600 could substitute the 380 for the aircraft currently in use (which last summer comprised one 340, one 767, two 772s and 11 744s). However the introduction of the 380 would not result in any increase in movements in the 'night' period of 2300 to 0700 hours.
 
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:43 pm

Quoting Macilree (Reply 17):
This would seem to be a potentially significant factor for BA in making a decision between the A380 and the B747-8 if the latter requires the same separation as a B747-400.

That's a big "if" at this time..........

Regards
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 18):


The net effect of this is that the airlines with landing slots between 0500 and 0600 could substitute the 380 for the aircraft currently in use (which last summer comprised one 340, one 767, two 772s and 11 744s). However the introduction of the 380 would not result in any increase in movements in the 'night' period of 2300 to 0700 hours.

It does mean an airline can basically double the number of movements by replacing a 744 with two 380s during the time has it is significantly quieter.

Many people also think "slot" constrained means just means takeoff or landing capacity, many airports including places like LHR and YVR are gate limited as well, we also have enroute slots be it north pacific, north atlantic, or into China where aircraft can wait for significant time now for a "slot" to fly a route.
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vv701
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
The net effect of this is that the airlines with landing slots between 0500 and 0600 could substitute the 380 for the aircraft currently in use (which last summer comprised one 340, one 767, two 772s and 11 744s). However the introduction of the 380 would not result in any increase in movements in the 'night' period of 2300 to 0700 hours.

It does mean an airline can basically double the number of movements by replacing a 744 with two 380s during the time has it is significantly quieter.

No. An airline cannot double the amount of movements at LHR during the night curfew because:

1. No arrivals at all are allowed between 2330 and 0500 hours whether the aircraft is a 380 or any other type.

2. Between 0500 and 0600 hours the number of arrivals is numerically restricted to the number that are currently operating, namely 15 on a weekday. So if they were all 380s the maximum allowed would still be just 15.

3. No arrivals are allowed to be scheduled between 0600 and 0620 because this period is reserved for landing aircraft scheduled to arrive after 0620 hours that arrive early.

4. Between 0620 and 0700 hours the rules are noise based and in theory it might be possible to increase the number of arrivals by using a quieter aircraft. However the airlines have worked this situation to their advantage and - by using appropriate aircraft fill all the slots physically available as if there were no noise restrictions. That is to say you cannot double up the number of landings however quiet the aircraft because aircraft separation would be insufficient.

In the summer 2006 schedules on weekdays between 0620 and 0659 hours 13 744s, 12 772s, 6 340s, 1 330, 3 763s and 1 752 were scheduled to land at LHR. With it currently looking as if separation time for a 744 following a 380 will have to be greater than when a 744 lands after another 744, the replacement of just one of these aircraft with a 380 could result in a reduction in the number of landing slots in this period from 36 to 35.

It is clear that the idea that you could double the number of slots by using 380s is totally fallacious. If this were possible then the 36 aircraft that were scheduled to land at LHR on a single runway in summer 2006 in 40 minutes would total 72 or one 380 every 33 seconds!
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
2. Between 0500 and 0600 hours the number of arrivals is numerically restricted to the number that are currently operating, namely 15 on a weekday. So if they were all 380s the maximum allowed would still be just 15.

I was of the understanding that night movements are based on a noise quota system, and the 15 aircraft at the moment are QC4 from memory, if a switch to a QC0.5 such as a 380 would allow more movements.

I have not seen anything in the UK AIP or from the UK department of transport to confirm your comments.
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vv701
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
I have not seen anything in the UK AIP or from the UK department of transport to confirm your comments.

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=205921&NewsAreaID=2
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=205921&NewsAreaID=2

Thanks for that, it still does not agree with what you were saying, it is actually agreeing with what I was saying, i.e. quieter aircraft can operate, and QC4 (744) are not allowed to operate.
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vv701
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:20 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 24):
Thanks for that, it still does not agree with what you were saying, it is actually agreeing with what I was saying, i.e. quieter aircraft can operate, and QC4 (744) are not allowed to operate.

I think you may have missed or misunderstood this:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
4. Between 0620 and 0700 hours the rules are noise based

I then went on to point out that, in practical terms:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
In the summer 2006 schedules on weekdays between 0620 and 0659 hours 13 744s, 12 772s, 6 340s, 1 330, 3 763s and 1 752 were scheduled to land at LHR.

While this is the period in which noise restrictions are in force it is untrue that 744s are not allowed to operate. Indeed in the 2006 Summer schedules no less than 13 744s (14 up until 2 June) were scheduled to arrive at LHR between 0620 and 0700:

0620 BA056 JNB-LHR
0620 BA092 YYZ-LHR
0620 CX007/037 HKG-LHR (Day 1,4 & 7 only)
0620 CX255 HKG-LHR
0625 BA010 SYD-LHR
0625 BA112 JFK-LHR
0625 SA234 JNB-LHR
0635 BA028 HKG-LHR
0635 BA206 MIA-LHR
0635 VS004 JFK-LHR (operated by a 343 after 2 June)
0645 QF031 SYD-LHR
0650 BA058 CPT-LHR
0655 BA216 IAD-LHR
0655 SA236 JNB-LHR

Separate from the noise restrictions there are, of course, the restrictions on spacing of aircraft. By the time the above schedules are combined with the other existing schedules in this time window comprising the scheduled arrival of 12 772s, 6 340s, 1 330, 3 763s and 1 752 you will find if you make the calculations that there are already more aircraft scheduled to arrive in this period than would be allowed under the spacing rules! How can this be?

The answer here is in the word 'scheduled'. All except one of the scheduled LHR arrivals between 0620 and 0659 are long haul intercontinental flights. Invariably some of these flights, aided either by stronger than normal following winds or weaker tyhan normal head winds, will arrive over southern England early and before 0620. As I pointed out in an earlier reply the period between 0600 and 0620 during which there are no scheduled arrivals (or departures) is used to land these early arrivals. (However it is important to note that if they arrived in the area before 0600 they will have been put in a holding pattern.)

The net result of all of this is that despite the noise regulations operating between 0600 anmd 0700 there is no runway capacity at this time to add another slot. So when the 380 is flying scheduled services there will not be the runway capacity to substitute two 380s instead of, say, one 744. And if a single scheduled 380 was to replace a single currently sheduled 744 the opposite effect - a reduction in arrival slot numbers - might happen. This could happen as the spacing between the 380 and the aircraft following it would need to be greater than the space between a 744 and the aircraft following it.
 
zvezda
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:52 pm

I'd like to see a complete lifting of restrictions during the night quota period for QC0.25 aircraft. That would help drive innovation and enable stricter rules at the shoulder times.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting Theginge (Reply 15):
the rest of the days capacity is based on having no ATC delay at 0700L

Not true. Capacity declarations are hourly from 0500. It has been modelled based on no delay at 0500L.

Quoting Theginge (Reply 15):
With regards to the A380 and the wake turbulence category I don't think Airport slots as such have anything to do with this, I think a slot is allocated regardless although someone correct me if I am wrong. It is up to ATC to sort out the spacing.

Not true. In the seasonal capacity declaration modeling, aircraft type mix/wake vortex mix is a very important component in determining the outcome - the hourly average/maximum calculated delay, hence the hourly capacity figure.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
In the summer 2006 schedules on weekdays between 0620 and 0659 hours 13 744s, 12 772s, 6 340s, 1 330, 3 763s and 1 752 were scheduled to land at LHR. With it currently looking as if separation time for a 744 following a 380 will have to be greater than when a 744 lands after another 744, the replacement of just one of these aircraft with a 380 could result in a reduction in the number of landing slots in this period from 36 to 35.

A reduction in capacity is possible but not necessarily true. If the addition of a number of A380 in a particular hour does not increase the maximum and average delay over the threshold for all hours, there will be no reduction of capacity (slots).

Quoting Zeke (Reply 24):
Thanks for that, it still does not agree with what you were saying, it is actually agreeing with what I was saying, i.e. quieter aircraft can operate, and QC4 (744) are not allowed to operate.

Well, you're both correct. The night movement quota is calculated on the basis that movements do not exceed EITHER the noise quota and the movement quota.

Let's take a look -
Movement Quota
2550 movements in the Winter season = 15 daily movements
3250 movements in the Summer season = 15 daily movements

Noise Quota
4140 noise units in the Winter season = 24.4 daily units = 6xQC4 = 12xQC2 = 49xQC0.5 or Infinite QC0!
5610 noise units in the Winter season = 25.9 daily units = 6xQC4 = 13xQC2 = 51xQC0.5

So even though the noise quota lets you land 51 A388s it's limited by the movement quota at 15. I hope that explains everything.
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cloudyapple
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 25):
The net result of all of this is that despite the noise regulations operating between 0600 anmd 0700 there is no runway capacity at this time to add another slot.

36 arrivals in that hour, all heavies at 4Nm approach separation. 36 movements x 4Nm x 25s = 3600s = 1h. But fact is that they won't come nicely spaced. Bunching, especially at the start of the hour, will push average/maximum delay > threshold. To alleviate this TEAM is in use EVERY morning.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 25):
So when the 380 is flying scheduled services there will not be the runway capacity to substitute two 380s instead of, say, one 744.

Not necessarily true. All depends on the traffic profile of that hour and the resultant delay profile. Again if the modeling shows the thresholds are not breached then there will not be any penalty to capacity.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 25):
And if a single scheduled 380 was to replace a single currently sheduled 744 the opposite effect - a reduction in arrival slot numbers - might happen. This could happen as the spacing between the 380 and the aircraft following it would need to be greater than the space between a 744 and the aircraft following it.

Not necessarily true. Of all the hours in the day, the most potential in switching traffic to A388s lies in the first 2 hours eg 0500-0659. During these 2 hours we can TEAM legitimately regardless of the delay situation. We can basically switch all the A388s to land on the departure runway. This is a perfect workaround to deal with any extra separation requirements. If TEAMing reduces spacing demand for the arrival runway, arrival capacity will not decrease.

As for the rest of the day, as it stands now, we can only TEAM if delay > threshold. So might be a bit of a problem if we have a surge in spacing demand due A388s.
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airplanecrazy
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 10):That also brings up the question on why UA uses their early slot for the ORD arrival and not the IAD arrival?

Effective April 21, UA 918 from IAD to LHR is scheduled to arrive at 5:50AM (it used to arrive at 6:20AM). I also see that UA 958 from ORD to LHR is scheduled to arrive at 5:55AM on the same day. Why are there now two UA flights arriving before 6am?

[Edited 2007-04-17 04:45:35]
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting Airplanecrazy (Reply 29):

Effective April 21, UA 918 from IAD to LHR is scheduled to arrive at 5:50AM (it used to arrive at 6:20AM). I also see that UA 958 from ORD to LHR is scheduled to arrive at 5:55AM on the same day. Why are there now two UA flights arriving before 6am?

They are to commission a new control tower this month. They have asked operators to move flights forward so they are not so busy at the morning peak, night time curfew has also been lifted.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
jbernie
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:43 pm

The thing about A380 traffic at LHR i actually having Airlines who have the plane and want to use it for flights to/from LHR as their traffic demands it.

Given the limited # of airlines who will be flying one of these jets and the length of time it will take for Airbus to get significant numbers of these planes in the air it will take a good amount of time for any difference to occur.

Rule out any airline that doesn't have any A380s on order
Rule our any airline that doesn't have the volume to require more than a 747 for the flights
Consider that if some airlines offload some 747s in bringing in their A380s then you might see some Airlines changing a 767 to a 747 that they got cheap.

example: Qantas, has two 744's flying in from Sydney each day, i think they also do two code shares with BA. Bringing in an A380 can't change their demand from 2 slots to 1, it just increases the number of seats available. Now they might go with one A380 and then MIGHT have JQ fly a 787 or Airbus (A330?) in in the slot they free up as the JQ flight will be the cheap seats. Another long term view is they fly an A380 in with all economy seating and they use their proposed 787-8/-9 hybrid for only the first/business class px.

Regardless of what they do the A380 doesn't really do anything to free up slots for another airline other than themselves to play with types of flights.

Now if you have an airline that runs say two 767s into LHR and the timing of those flights is reasonably close, then they might be able to offload a slot by flying an A380 or B748.

The other factor to consider.... regardless of what jets an airline has, are they really going to want to give up slots at an airport like LHR and maybe risk not being able to get that slot back if/when traffic increases to the point that a single A380 or B748 flight cannot handle the traffic. Maybe if a majority of airlines agreed to move up to a larger jet size to free up a lot of slots in general but we are talking business, not charity here.
 
jacobin777
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 1):
They actually open up slots for carriers, as the the A380 can operate into LHR 24/7, where as the 744 is not allowed to operate during night time curfew.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 14):
As far as I know there is a set noise quota during the 2300-0600 periods (equivalent to about 15 slots now), based upon current noise requirements, with quieter aircraft such as the 380 coming onto the scene, the number of movements to make the night noise quota increases.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
It does mean an airline can basically double the number of movements by replacing a 744 with two 380s during the time has it is significantly quieter.

...all these reasons will actually decrease the reason to purchase an A380 (especially if CASM is better with other aircrafts)-after all, the supposed purpose of the A380 being built was to get a better CASM than the B744 (which it shouldn't be even compared to now anyway) and to fly into slot-restricted/constrained airports such as LHR.....the B748's, B787's and A350's will be able to achieve (if not improve) the same noise requirements of the A380......

though not as valuable as mid-day slots...early morning LHR is where a lot of the "international action" is at...


the SQ's, QF's, TGs, SA's, AA's of the world have early morning LHR arrivals......I suspect the DL's and possibly CO's of the world to have early morning arrivals also...

...that being said I doubt the CAA will allow a majour increase in flights during restricted curfew hours and I doubt any of the carriers who's intent it is to fly the A380 into LHR will switch...

.but this would be another "thorn" on the side of the A380......
"Up the Irons!"
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 32):

.but this would be another "thorn" on the side of the A380......

Think it would be wise to listen to people like Cloudyapple and myself who have actually looked at the issue...

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 28):

Not necessarily true. All depends on the traffic profile of that hour and the resultant delay profile. Again if the modeling shows the thresholds are not breached then there will not be any penalty to capacity.

All you are doing is throwing about the usual anti-A380 mantra that you have been using for some time...some original material would be nice.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:38 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
Has it actually met the promised noise standards? I was under the impression it had yet to do so. And personally, hearing a UA 744 land right before the A380 here at LAX, the A380 was no quieter. It actually sounded louder on approach. Just subjective, but we were all shocked that it wasn't as quiet as we expected it would be.

Ignore Ikra it's another of his anti european rants

Quoting VV701 (Reply 9):
(Such aircraft will be refused landing before 0600.) This raises something I have always wondered about. If an airline has a flight with an LHR arrival slot at or after 0620 and the aircraft habitually is ready for landing before 0620, are ATC going to report it? If so to whom? AML? What happens then?

BA0 12 and BA016 routinely arrive between 04.15 and 05.55
QF009 routinely arrives 0525 as does SQ322.

I arrived only a few weeks ago at 05.45 on an SQ flight, and UA's old JFK flight regularly came in at 5.30-6am.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
airplanecrazy
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 30):
They are to commission a new control tower this month. They have asked operators to move flights forward so they are not so busy at the morning peak, night time curfew has also been lifted.

So are there any curfew rules now? What do the local residents think of all of the new early arrivals?
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Runway Slots At LHR

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting AirplaneCrazy (Reply 35):

So are there any curfew rules now? What do the local residents think of all of the new early arrivals?

AFAIK during the commissioning phase, they have been lifted. Don't know what the residents think, they know the bought property near an airport.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar

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