JAAlbert
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AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:28 pm

While perusing the AA reservation site for fun, it brought up two 777 flights leaving JFK, one at 6:10 p.m. (flt. 100) and another 777 flight leaving at 6:35 p.m. (flt 120) both bound for LHR. I understand using smaller planes to increase frequency and give passengers more choice, but what is the logic of two planes leaving to the same destination within a half hour of one another? If one 777 can't carry the demand, wouldn't it be more economical (assuming AA had such aircraft) to operate one 744 or 748 on this route at 6:00 p.m. nightly? Aren't the slots at LHR a fortune?

Any information/thoughts on this from our A.net friends who work for AA or know about such things??
 
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sammyk
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:44 pm

What if those are their only two flights in that situation? No sense in getting a 747 or two just for that.

[Edited 2007-03-27 05:44:53]
 
Feroze
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:45 pm

The same could be said of BA's flight departures (all on 747):

1830
1900
1930
2001
2030
2230

plus the 0840 daytime departure.

It all comes down to customer choice and demand - flexibility is key, especially for those at the front of the cabin - the ones who effectively pay for the flight

[Edited 2007-03-27 05:47:54]
 
commavia
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
I understand using smaller planes to increase frequency and give passengers more choice, but what is the logic of two planes leaving to the same destination within a half hour of one another?

AA packs them in on this route, particularly as we are getting into the spring and summer months. If they can fill the flights, even if they are 25 minutes apart, why not? Sure, scheduling a bit more spaced apart would probably be more ideal, but the slot situation at Heathrow being what it is, they do the best they can with scheduling the flights. In addition, an increased schedule with more flights -- even if they are very close together -- is exceedingly appealing to the business travelers and corporate contracts who call the shots on routes like JFK-Heathrow.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
If one 777 can't carry the demand, wouldn't it be more economical (assuming AA had such aircraft) to operate one 744 or 748 on this route at 6:00 p.m. nightly?

AA doesn't have anything bigger than the 777, though, and they're not going to get a bigger plane for the few instances -- like this -- where it might come in handy.

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
Aren't the slots at LHR a fortune?

Yes, which is why AA will use them however they can get them, even if it means AA100 from JFK scheduled to land at 0625 and AA122 from JFK scheduled to land at 0655.

Hope it helps.
 
gemini573
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:49 pm

You should see BA's triple daily 744 flights ex-HKG. 23:15, 23:40, and 0:35.
 
B742
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting Gemini573 (Reply 4):
You should see BA's triple daily 744 flights ex-HKG. 23:15, 23:40, and 0:35.

Aswell as their SIN flights.
22:55 BA12 744
23:15 BA16 772


Their LHR-SIN flights are even closer:

21:25 BA11 744
21:35 BA15 772

They should realy make BA15 into a early morning arrival into SIN.

Rob!  wave 
 
swiftski
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:58 pm

On Virgin, VS001 and VS009 both leave LHR at 1600. One to JFK and one to EWR.
 
8herveg
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Thread starter):
wouldn't it be more economical (assuming AA had such aircraft) to operate one 744 or 748 on this route at 6:00 p.m. nightly?

AA aren't going to order a few larger aircraft just for this route! It's all about flexibility, which is what First and Business Class passengers particuarly, need between these two business cities!!
 
SailorOrion
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:35 pm

Erm ... neither the A380 nor the 748 is in service at the moment, and a 744 is not nearly big enough to replace two 777 on the route. There are other routes that have similar densities because of very limited windows to operate (like SIN-FRA, LAX-SYD)

SailorOrion
 
Jaws707
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:43 pm

For those of you who still don't think the A380 will be successful, I think this topic does a great job of showing how it will be successful. Sure airlines can increase flights to add capacity, but eventually the airport becomes too full. The only way to then grow is to switch to a larger aircraft. Look at BA's departures, all very close to each other, really cannot add any more frequency, so the next logical step is to switch to an A380.

Quoting Feroze (Reply 2):
The same could be said of BA's flight departures (all on 747):

1830
1900
1930
2001
2030
2230
 
JAAlbert
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
It's all about flexibility, which is what First and Business Class passengers particuarly, need between these two business cities!!

I understand the flexibility argument, but really is flexibility really the issue in having two planes leave less than 30 minutes apart? I think this has more to do with the fact that AA has such demand for LHR flights leaving early evening that it has to send two planes. It spaces them a half hour apart to give LHR ground crew time to bring first one, then the other in.

I agree with Jaws707 that a single plane could trump the frequency concept -- where the planes leave less than 30 minutes apart at least.

Flexibility, being the ability to pull one plane off when demand slackens, however, would mitigate in favor of the two plane schedule.

But if you can fill the planes -- as AA apparently can even in this spring off season -- why not get the biggest plane you can?

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 9):
Erm ... neither the A380 nor the 748 is in service at the moment, and a 744 is not nearly big enough to replace two 777 on the route.

This is true -- I guess even one 380 isn't large enough to replace to 777 either
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):

AA doesn't have anything bigger than the 777, though, and they're not going to get a bigger plane for the few instances -- like this -- where it might come in handy.

 checkmark ...add open skies and more competition......AA preferes flexibility to add/remove flights.....there is basically no need for a plane even larger than a B773ER for AA, and that's pushing it....
"Up the Irons!"
 
BDL2DCA
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 11):

But if you can fill the planes -- as AA apparently can even in this spring off season -- why not get the biggest plane you can?

The issue for AA is that this one single route is the only route in their network which could handle a bigger plane. And that is right now, when the economies in the US and the UK are both doing fairly well.

They would need at most 4 744s or 3 380s to cover some of the frequencies on this route, and that would be VERY expensive. Much more expensive over time than sending an extra 777.

Now, if AA had more routes in its network where it could acquire say 10-20 748s, then maybe we might see it. But there is just no business case to support them acquiring larger aircraft.
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gemini573
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:15 am

I guess it's the reason why you havent't seen any OW carrier (with the exception of QF), order the A380. If you look at the business models of BA, CX, and AA, they are more focused on the number of frequencies as opposed to offering more destinations. Look at CX. I haven't seen them introduce new destinations (exception of mainland China). I have seen them increase frequencies to existing desitnations; ICN, LHR, CDG, FRA, etc.

I'm sure the A380 will do very well for the carriers that have ordered them.
 
BA787
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Feroze (Reply 2):

Another reason why the A380 would work well here Big grin
 
ptcflyer
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:05 am

The real reasons bigger planes are not called for here are RISK and FLEXIBILITY!

You can not cut an A380 in half if there is a serious downturn in travel due to SARS, or terrorism, etc.

You have double the trouble with an inability to recover should there be a mechanical problem!

May not be able to flexibly route a JFK - LHR A380 back to DFW. The plane would probably have to be dedicated to the JFK-LHR route.

If the LHR to JFK market craps out due for some reason... there are relatively few markets that can profitably absorb the lift of an A380. An airline can break up two 777s and fly to a lot of destinations profitably.

The LHR to JFK route may become far less important as passengers that are only using the segment to connect to other flights opt for increasing point-to-point services betweent the US and Europe. (the Middle East, India, and Africa!) I would hate to lock into such a huge investment in lift for one route... that may not maintain the demand levels into the future.

If it is a "light" day, and I need a 777 elsewhere due to some other problem... I can cancel one of 777s, accommodate the passengers... and recover from irregularities with far greater agility.


Of course, in addition to these two HUGE reasons... there are all of the typical reasons:

cost of the small subfleet (spare parts, training, procedures, etc. etc. etc.)
infrastructure improvements gate-side, etc.


Also, with the 787 and A350 coming on line... Airlines figure that their total costs per seat mile will approach that of an A380 .... with greater route dispatch flexibility, range and less RISK!


American Airlines and other carriers in similar circumstances will be far more productive leveraging smaller wide-bodies. Only until a carrier can fill 10+ A380's year round profitably... will it even become "tempting". The fragmentation out of the US to much of the rest of the world will probably limit the opportunity for such success with the super-jumbos for quite some time to come.
 
HBJZA
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Ptcflyer (Reply 16):

In my point of view it's just another "excuse" to bash the A380. If I follow your thinking, why doesn't AA simply send 10 757's in a row from JFK to LHR and fill them as the demand and if something goes wrong, they can use the "unused" 757 to another destination in their network or simply cancel the "unneeded" flights. Following your logic, the smaller plane with as many frequency as possible is the best option ??? Am I understanding you right ?
 
Geo772
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 10):
For those of you who still don't think the A380 will be successful, I think this topic does a great job of showing how it will be successful. Sure airlines can increase flights to add capacity, but eventually the airport becomes too full. The only way to then grow is to switch to a larger aircraft. Look at BA's departures, all very close to each other, really cannot add any more frequency, so the next logical step is to switch to an A380.

I disagree. Routes like New York - London rely on the huge business market. The reason BA operates so many 744 is that they hold the highest number of premium seats. If the 777 had a higher premium capacity then there is a good chance that the flight would be operated by 777's.

Carriers which rely almost solely on economy class travel are more likely to benefit from a larger aircraft, but only if they can fill it.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:39 am

Lets remember that although the flights leave New York in a row, the departures from LHR are much more spaced out. Flights leave LHr from 0900 up to 1800 to fly to NYC, but are obliged to return in a row because of the LHR NJB, and the fact that no one wants to arrive at LHR before 0600 anyway.
 
desertjets
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting HBJZA (Reply 17):
Following your logic, the smaller plane with as many frequency as possible is the best option ??? Am I understanding you right ?

I think you missed the logic train. It is about right-sizing the equipment the carrier has to the market. Your example of the 757 might actually be a poor fit due to payload limitations on longer flights and a lack of premium seats, not to mention scheduling flexibility.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
MCOflyer
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:45 am

If you have demand to warrant the flights like this, do it. In the end the airlines get the profit from these routes.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
flyorski
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 10):
For those of you who still don't think the A380 will be successful, I think this topic does a great job of showing how it will be successful. Sure airlines can increase flights to add capacity, but eventually the airport becomes too full. The only way to then grow is to switch to a larger aircraft. Look at BA's departures, all very close to each other, really cannot add any more frequency, so the next logical step is to switch to an A380

Exactly, I would not actually be surprised to see UA or NW order some A380s.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
vv701
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 19):
Lets remember that although the flights leave New York in a row, the departures from LHR are much more spaced out.

 checkmark 

So while From JFK

Quoting Feroze (Reply 2):
BA's flight departures (all on 747):

1830
1900
1930
2001
2030
2230

plus the 0840 daytime departure.

From LHR BA's 747 flight departures for JFK are much more evemly spread across the day:

0855
1025
1340
1525
1610
1805
2000
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 10):
For those of you who still don't think the A380 will be successful, I think this topic does a great job of showing how it will be successful. Sure airlines can increase flights to add capacity, but eventually the airport becomes too full. The only way to then grow is to switch to a larger aircraft. Look at BA's departures, all very close to each other, really cannot add any more frequency, so the next logical step is to switch to an A380.

Why not add more frequency? Isn't that what carriers such as AA, BA and CX have been doing?

BA have more than enough slots and enough "slack" in their system...
"Up the Irons!"
 
Jaws707
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 24):
Why not add more frequency? Isn't that what carriers such as AA, BA and CX have been doing?

You can add frequency to a point. Let's look at ORD (O"Hare) for a moment. This airport is so busy it barely accomodates all flights on a good weather day, but if any storm comes in all hell breaks loose. Last Thur for example I was flying ORD-LGA. AA has about 19 daily roundtrip flights between the airports using MD-80's. The night before Chicago got some storms, and a bunch of flights ended up getting cancelled. Mine included. I should have been at LGA at 11:35am, instead I made it to JKF at 8:15pm. ORD has no slack and can backup quickly. Now they working on rebuilding it and expanding it further. In this case, I believe AA should reduce the route to say 12-14 daily roundtrips using some 757's with the MD-80's to keep capacity as is, but just reduce the # of flights.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 25):
This airport is so busy it barely accomodates all flights on a good weather day, but if any storm comes in all hell breaks loose.

...it would have been mayhem regardless if they used the a MadDog, B757 or a B777 (or even an A380)

..actually, they in fact switched one of their flights from ORD-JFK to a B772ER.....and then when operations went back to normal, they downguaged it again....yet again, showing their fleet flexibility and able to ajust "on the fly"....

If there were a need for a larger plane, AA would use it....but as most here correctly point out, pax (especially the "suit & ties") prefer flexibility.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting HBJZA (Reply 17):
why doesn't AA simply send 10 757's in a row from JFK to LHR and fill them as the demand and if something goes wrong, they can use the "unused" 757 to another destination in their network or simply cancel the "unneeded" flights.

Well, that might work, except from the availability of slots at LHR - they aren't easy to get! The 772 is the largest plane AA thinks it can profitably fill to a lot of destinations a lot of the time. Thus, it's the plane deployed to use precious LHR slots. While some would argue AA should buy 773/744/748/388 to better use these slots, AA has apparently decided that those aircraft could not be profitably filled to a lot of destinations a lot of the time.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 19):
no one wants to arrive at LHR before 0600 anyway.

The issue of "wanting" to arrive at LHR before 0600 is not the only relevant factor - LHR has a curfew which significantly limits flights before that time - a flight arriving at LHR needs to depart JFK around 1800/1830 or later.

The real issue is what time pax want to leave JFK - after midnight seems not to be popular. Thus, aside from the odd daylight eastbound t/a, there's a six-hour window in which to depart the US East Coast and arrive at LHR when it's open. It doesn't help slot availability that many flights from East Asia, India, the MidEast, and Africa also "prefer" arriving in the morning at LHR.

[Edited 2007-03-28 00:49:25]
 
highflyer9790
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:01 am

So in total, how many flights leave JFK for LHR everyday? How about the new york are to the london area? (i.e. EWR and JFK, to LHR, MAN, etc.)
121
 
Feroze
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 28):
So in total, how many flights leave JFK for LHR everyday? How about the new york are to the london area? (i.e. EWR and JFK, to LHR, MAN, etc.)

This was discussed in detail in this thread:
RE: London To New York, How Many A Day? (by Planesarecool Mar 18 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Oh, MAN is not in the London area.
 
BCALBOY
Posts: 102
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 17):
Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 10):
For those of you who still don't think the A380 will be successful, I think this topic does a great job of showing how it will be successful. Sure airlines can increase flights to add capacity, but eventually the airport becomes too full. The only way to then grow is to switch to a larger aircraft. Look at BA's departures, all very close to each other, really cannot add any more frequency, so the next logical step is to switch to an A380.

I disagree. Routes like New York - London rely on the huge business market. The reason BA operates so many 744 is that they hold the highest number of premium seats. If the 777 had a higher premium capacity then there is a good chance that the flight would be operated by 777's.

Carriers which rely almost solely on economy class travel are more likely to benefit from a larger aircraft, but only if they can fill it.

This ia exactly the case...i.e.the ba JFKLHR scheduling is designed to meet the needs of and win the Lion's share of the Premium Mkt. On peak days of week these flts are all full in the Premium cabins and often have many empty seats in World Traveller.

The schedule used to more evenly spaced....1830,1900,2000,2100,2200, plus the daylight.

The early flights 1830,1900 were always oversubscribed with heavy waitlists and BA was losing psgrs who weren-t prepared to wait to 2100,200 to the competeitor services at 1800,1900. Compacting the schedule means there are a lot more premium seats available at the most preferred business times.

As has been mentioned replacing 2 744s with an A380 wouldn-t provide the Premium capacity unless they were configured with 28F 140J and I think Premium cabins of the size loose their exclusive feel ( Thats why a lot of F psgrs actuallly preferred subsonic F to Concorde ....as with 100 seats they didn-t feel special unless sat in row 1/2.)

Also I don -t think there are many other routes which would support that level of Premium capacity on a regular basis and operating a number of sub fleets with capacity variations in an already small fleet of A380s is not sensible .

The higher frequency with lower capacity also gives the traveller flexibility ...if they are 30 mins late due traffic or over-running meeting just get the next one and if an aircraft gets canx due Tech BA can roll psgrs so that nobody gets delayed too long and eveybody gets away.

Daylight longhauls generally don-t do as well as shorthaul and again on routes like Sin Hkg the close proximity of flights is to provide the Premium capacity where it is most preferred and will command the highest yields.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:20 am

The issue is slots and landing times. Nothing to do with size of plane or load factors. This is the world's busiest international route. JFK and LHR are congested.
 
BCALBOY
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 31):
The issue is slots and landing times. Nothing to do with size of plane or load factors. This is the world's busiest international route. JFK and LHR are congested

Srry don -t agree at least so far as BA is concerned.

JFK/LHR is too important - it get what it needs and other things are moved to accomodate.

The current schedule is deliberate , not just the best than can be cobbled together .
 
JAAlbert
Topic Author
Posts: 1549
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 30):
The higher frequency with lower capacity also gives the traveller flexibility ...if they are 30 mins late due traffic or over-running meeting just get the next one and if an aircraft gets canx due Tech BA can roll psgrs so that nobody gets delayed too long and eveybody gets away.

This would be a persuasive argument, if it werent for the fact that -- with respect to AA at least -- virtually every seat is sold on each of its evening flights going out of JFK. With loads like these, a passenger runs a real risk of being stranded at JFK if he misses his intended flight.
 
BCALBOY
Posts: 102
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 34):
This would be a persuasive argument, if it werent for the fact that -- with respect to AA at least -- virtually every seat is sold on each of its evening flights going out of JFK. With loads like these, a passenger runs a real risk of being stranded at JFK if he misses his intended flight.

No because those who turn-up late make space for those who turn-up early and usually end up withy some empty seats on last flt. JFKBA are expert and experienced at managing this. (ie.g. capcity in J is 400 in the evening , 390 booked ,350 travel but not necess on flts they are booked ).

Its only on really peak dates there is log jam and not getting on is a poss.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 33):

Its only on really peak dates there is log jam and not getting on is a poss.

...and that's a good problem to have... Wink

...add open skies and a few other carriers serving other routes (such as EOS and MaxJet), and all of the sudden, capacity is there to meet demand.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 18):
Flights leave LHr from 0900 up to 1800 to fly to NYC, but are obliged to return in a row because of the LHR NJB

Excuse me but what does the NJB stand for? Is it some sort of agreement?

Thanks in advance
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ptcflyer
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RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Geo772 (Reply 17):
In my point of view it's just another "excuse" to bash the A380. If I follow your thinking, why doesn't AA simply send 10 757's in a row from JFK to LHR and fill them as the demand and if something goes wrong, they can use the "unused" 757 to another destination in their network or simply cancel the "unneeded" flights. Following your logic, the smaller plane with as many frequency as possible is the best option ??? Am I understanding you right ?

IMHO, you are way too over sensitive for A380 bashing. The same issues apply to the new 747. As someone else pointed out... you have to factor in premium seat capacity, payload, etc. A 757 can serve Western Europe to Eastern US only... and is not flexible to serve the many markets in Europe, LA, and Pacific like the 777 or A340. Fragmenting below the mid-market wide-body is equally unproductive. Continental has found a niche with the 757. Delta is following suit from East Coast hubs.. But clearly, smaller narrow bodies are not the standard answer.

Normally, in order to justify a sub-fleet, an airline, like American, would have to justify at least 10 frames. I would argue that the inherent risk of the A380 or 747 would require a much larger number of frames to justify the investment. Standardizing on the mid-range sized work-horse of the 777/A330/A340 is better for now.... and then accept the new generation composite crafts with new lower per seat mile costs. Little reason to take on the risk of the big birds. If you need more markets to justify the A380... then you also have to make more infrastructure investments at more airports to allow this to happen.

Again, Markets like JFK - London / Frankfurt / Paris -- look really busy. However, as the carriers push for more direct point-to-point services... the capacity needs of these hub-to-hub markets are at risk. Every new flight between the US and Africa, the US and India, the US and the Middle-East, the US and smaller cities within Europe will shift traffic off these sectors and decrease the need for A380 capacity in the short to intermediate term.

The incremental value of consolidating two 777 into one larger aircraft is way significantly off-set with the increase in risk, decrease in flexibility / agility.
 
aq737
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2000 10:47 am

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:32 pm

NW has three flights soon between HNL and NRT (2 744 and 1 333) that depart within an hour of one another.

Aq737
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 35):
Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 18):
Flights leave LHr from 0900 up to 1800 to fly to NYC, but are obliged to return in a row because of the LHR NJB

Excuse me but what does the NJB stand for? Is it some sort of agreement?

Night jet ban.
LHR is basically closed from 2330 to 0600. Every airline that operates to LHR is allowed a small number of flights in this period. When I worked for GF we had 3 flights/day, and were allocated 10 flights/YEAR in the NJB. These were used for the odd tech dealy.
BA being the largest slot holder at LHR has many more, around 8-10 per night. Six of these are used for long haul scheduled arrivals every morning, the rest are used for disruption. This is carefully managed to ensure it lasts the year.
 
aussiestu
Posts: 752
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:32 pm

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 38):
When I worked for GF we had 3 flights/day, and were allocated 10 flights/YEAR in the NJB

Were these like slots and could be possibly sold to other airlines? It would appear rare for GF to use the NJB slots unless something had been delayed greatly leaving the Middle East or gone tech at LHR. Now if they could sell those unused slots on the open market then what a great money earner???
 
Jaws707
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:45 am

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 25):
This airport is so busy it barely accomodates all flights on a good weather day, but if any storm comes in all hell breaks loose.

...it would have been mayhem regardless if they used the a MadDog, B757 or a B777 (or even an A380)

I don't think it would have been as bad if there were fewer flights. For example, lets assume ORD is shut down for 4 hours. In these 4 hours AA delays 10 MD-80 flights. When the airport reopens they cannot get all 10 flights out because ORD is at capacity normally and now all these airlines are trying to get the other 4 hrs of flights out. Therefore AA has to cancel 6 flights, due to a lack of capacity at the airport.

Other option. AA has 5 flights each holding twice as many people during those 4 hrs that are delayed. When the airport is reopened there are fewer flights overall because everyone is using larger airplanes and AA can get more flights out. Lets say AA ends up cancelling 1 or 2 flights. The situation still wouldn't be perfect, but I think this example shows how incorporating a little slack into the system using larger aircraft and less frequency makes any weather problems easier to handle.
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting Ptcflyer (Reply 36):

That wasn't a quote from me for the record.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 40):
I don't think it would have been as bad if there were fewer flights. For example, lets assume ORD is shut down for 4 hours. In these 4 hours AA delays 10 MD-80 flights. When the airport reopens they cannot get all 10 flights out because ORD is at capacity normally and now all these airlines are trying to get the other 4 hrs of flights out. Therefore AA has to cancel 6 flights, due to a lack of capacity at the airport.

...because something like this doesn't happen to often during the year..

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 40):
Other option. AA has 5 flights each holding twice as many people during those 4 hrs that are delayed. When the airport is reopened there are fewer flights overall because everyone is using larger airplanes and AA can get more flights out. Lets say AA ends up cancelling 1 or 2 flights. The situation still wouldn't be perfect, but I think this example shows how incorporating a little slack into the system using larger aircraft and less frequency makes any weather problems easier to handle.

....and what about rest of the odd 359 days when the system is performing smoothly and pax prefer frequency? How will the extra seats get filled with bums on a larger plane?
"Up the Irons!"
 
Jaws707
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:45 am

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 42):
Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 40):
Other option. AA has 5 flights each holding twice as many people during those 4 hrs that are delayed. When the airport is reopened there are fewer flights overall because everyone is using larger airplanes and AA can get more flights out. Lets say AA ends up cancelling 1 or 2 flights. The situation still wouldn't be perfect, but I think this example shows how incorporating a little slack into the system using larger aircraft and less frequency makes any weather problems easier to handle.

....and what about rest of the odd 359 days when the system is performing smoothly and pax prefer frequency? How will the extra seats get filled with bums on a larger plane?

Problems at ORD occur way more often than 5 days a year. Anytime there is a thunderstorm things like this happen. There wouldn't be extra seats. The amount of seats would be the same. Simply put a few fewer flights, but enough to allow flexibility on larger aircraft. Like I said earlier one example would be to change ORD-LGA from 19 daily rountrips on MD-80's to 12-14 daily roundtrips on a combination of MD80's and 757's. That way each airport has some more slack, and I think 12-14 daily roundtrips is more then enough conveniance.

I'm not saying AA needs the A380 or will get it anytime soon. I'm just trying to show as routes continue to grow, bigger planes will be necessary.
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 24):
You can add frequency to a point. Let's look at ORD (O"Hare) for a moment. This airport is so busy it barely accomodates all flights on a good weather day, but if any storm comes in all hell breaks loose.AA has about 19 daily roundtrip flights between the airports using MD-80's.
....
I believe AA should reduce the route to say 12-14 daily roundtrips using some 757's with the MD-80's to keep capacity as is, but just reduce the # of flights.

Good in theory - but AA will lose the slots if they go unused. Then someone else will pick up the slots and congestion is just as bad.

Not sure how dealing with 350 passengers on 3 canceled MD80s compares to 350 passengers on two canceled 757s.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Jaws707 (Reply 43):

Problems at ORD occur way more often than 5 days a year. Anytime there is a thunderstorm things like this happen. There wouldn't be extra seats. The amount of seats would be the same. Simply put a few fewer flights, but enough to allow flexibility on larger aircraft. Like I said earlier one example would be to change ORD-LGA from 19 daily rountrips on MD-80's to 12-14 daily roundtrips on a combination of MD80's and 757's. That way each airport has some more slack, and I think 12-14 daily roundtrips is more then enough conveniance.

...I fly into/out of ORD almost twice a month (many times 2x/month)....in the past 5-6 years, I've experienced maybe two delays...3 maximum...

..oh yes, Iived in north Chicago suburbs for 3+ decades..so I am familiar with Chicago/ORD...in fact, I have planes (including heavies) flying right over my parent's home.... bigthumbsup 
"Up the Irons!"
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:14 am

RE: AA JFK-LHR 777 Flights Minutes Apart.

Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:57 am

Having taken AA on that route a lot, more than half the time we sit on the tarmac outside the tight area between the main part of LHR's terminal 3 and the outer wing. I've had this wait be as much as an hour for a gate to vacate or just to clear the tight traffic in this area. Yet, the drivers picking me up get the message the plane has landed, but we're no where near getting off of it.

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