ti717
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Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:37 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070327/sftu040.html?.v=90


LONDON, March 27 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA - News) and British Airways have finalized an order for four Boeing 777-200ER jetliners valued at more than $800 million at list prices. British Airways also secured options for four additional 777-200ERs. British Airways said it is using the 777s to expand its long-haul fleet.
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eraugrad02
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:17 am

Wonder why such a small order when they are looking to replace older long haul aircraft? Wonder if Boeing could/would do a deal in a package for say: 777-200/-300 and 747-800.
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:27 am

8 aircraft fit their bridging requirement, right? I assume this fills the RFP for that small segment, and that means no A330, which wasn't likely anyway.

Now the real fun starts, as they also have the RFP for fleet replacement going forward.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:39 am

Yes, BA reversed themselves on the "bridge order winner will determine the replacement order winner" statement and added additional 772ERs without also committing to the 787.
 
BA787
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:42 am

I think this could be a cunning move by BA. This will make Boeing squirm a bit as I think they will be confused abotu what BA are playing at. I still tyhink it's a pretty level playing field as far as BA are concerned
 
jfk777
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:42 am

Now lets get to the real issue, how many 748 is BA going to buy. 4 777 is about as exciting as another flight to Paris, its a non event. The new long haul fleet is a big event, one the whole aviation world is waiting for. Given Wille Walsh's Airbus leanings at Aer Lingus if it wasn't for the problems the A350 and A380 are having I would have bet Airbus.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Yes, BA reversed themselves on the "bridge order winner will determine the replacement order winner" statement and added additional 772ERs without also committing to the 787.

We don't know that. We only know that this order was announced today, and as a bridging order, it's not a lot of fanfare.

This doesn't mean that they have chosen or not chosen the 787, only that they chose not to announce anything at this time.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
This doesn't mean that they have chosen or not chosen the 787, only that they chose not to announce anything at this time.

True. My comment was just that, originally, BA stated that whomever won the bridging order would also win the replacement order. So if the 772ER was chosen, so would the 787 and if the A330 was chosen, so would the A350XWB.

However, when BA determined the 772ER was the better bridging option, period, they had to "break" the link so as to still maintain some upper-hand in negotiations by publically proclaiming they are still evaluating both families.
 
hb88
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5):
Now lets get to the real issue, how many 748 is BA going to buy.

Hopefully zero  Smile

Throwing a cat a amongst the pigeons with the pro-Boeing-militia... personally, if the pax comfort reports from the 380 ELFs and proving flights are anything to go by, Boeing will have to do something pretty stunning with the 748 to beat it.

I also have to say, after seeing the beest at Filton over the last couple of days in all-white livery, it looks like a big, flying milk bottle...
 
Sketty222
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:20 am

I understood that BA had got the 4x 777's only as a bridging order and wil be deciding upon Airbus or Boeing for the main longhaul order.
I was dead against the A380 for BA but after seeing the trip reports etc on here of the proving flights Im now hoping BA get a couple of them.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 8):
if the pax comfort reports from the 380 ELFs and proving flights are anything to go by, Boeing will have to do something pretty stunning with the 748 to beat it.

Completely agree with you!!!

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ebbuk
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 8):
I also have to say, after seeing the beest at Filton over the last couple of days in all-white livery, it looks like a big, flying milk bottle...

Yum yum! Congrats to all at Filton for building wings that have blown all predictions out of the water, and bettered them. A testament to brilliiance and the application thereof!

With regards to BA! A message to Willie Walsh, "You've not eactly handled matters very well since you've been in charge, strikes and crosses (Chritian ones) to name but two. Pensions was not your fault, I get that. Yet you have the opportunity to do something extraordinary, something that will prove what the Board of Directors saw in your potential to make BA even greater than it is. You know what that is? Order the A380! See your dominance in the market place grow to another level as you become even more competitive with other airlines. Think you got it in you?"

What you reckon Willie read it (pun intended)?
 
JAM747
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:34 am

There was a previous thread about BA getting some SAA 747s. Does this 777 order have anything to do with this or is the SAA 747 deal out tof the question now.
 
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 8):
Throwing a cat a amongst the pigeons with the pro-Boeing-militia... personally, if the pax comfort reports from the 380 ELFs and proving flights are anything to go by, Boeing will have to do something pretty stunning with the 748 to beat it.

The comfort advantage of the A320 over the 737 is at least as great as the comfort advantage of the WhaleJet over the JumboJet, yet the 737 holds its own in sales. Why? Because the operating costs are about the same. Looking at the weight and SFC advantages the 747-8 has over the WhaleJet suggests advantage Boeing in the marketplace. Orders so far support that hypothesis. Last year the 747 outsold the Whalejet 72 to 7 -- and 12 of those where 747-400Fs.
 
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
8 aircraft fit their bridging requirement, right? I assume this fills the RFP for that small segment, and that means no A330, which wasn't likely anyway.

I wouldn't rule out the A330 yet. These four 777s won't do much to replace BA's 767s. If BA select the A350 (a big IF, I admit) the A330 could still see service in BA colours.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
BA stated that whomever won the bridging order would also win the replacement order

I'm not sure this was "the bridging order".

My understanding was that:
1. BA would choose either Boeing or Airbus for the major long-haul replacement order.
2. If Boeing was chosen then 777s (more than 4+4) would be ordered to tide them over.
3. If Airbus won then A330s would come in to hold the fort until the A350s arrived.

I don't think any of these decisions have yet been taken.

If anything, the 4 new 777s are just a small increase in capacity pending the major decision later this year.

I could be wrong but my interpretation of events is that these four 777s don't tell us much about BA's longer term plans and that both Airbus (offering the A330, A350 and A380) and Boeing (offering the 777-200ER, 777-300ER, 787 and 748) still have everything to play for.

I might also observe that Boeing's press release http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070327c_nr.html states that: British Airways has a fleet of 43 Boeing 777s making it Europe's largest operator of the popular jetliner. But, if I'm not mistaken, AF already have 44 in service with several more to come soon. Am I wrong or are Boeing a little bit behind the curve?  Wink
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
My understanding was that:
1. BA would choose either Boeing or Airbus for the major long-haul replacement order.
2. If Boeing was chosen then 777s (more than 4+4) would be ordered to tide them over.
3. If Airbus won then A330s would come in to hold the fort until the A350s arrived.

I don't think any of these decisions have yet been taken.

If anything, the 4 new 777s are just a small increase in capacity pending the major decision later this year.

I could be wrong but my interpretation of events is that these four 777s don't tell us much about BA's longer term plans and that both Airbus (offering the A330, A350 and A380) and Boeing (offering the 777-200ER, 777-300ER, 787 and 748) still have everything to play for.

 checkmark  as much as i would like to see the 77W and 747-8 win the order, it is still premature to say who will win the final order.
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Burkhard
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:28 pm

I also see this nice order just gives BA another year of time to decide. I do see as alternative
a) A dozen A380 + two dozens of 777
or
b) three dozens of 748.

BA currently isn't in a state to make any large order. They got this small one through to ensure they do not run out of planes. There will be 744s in Heathrow for a very long time - I bet longer than DC9s with Northwest.
 
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 15):
BA currently isn't in a state to make any large order.

Why would you say that? They have announced that they are on the brink of just such a large order. They even specified which models were under consideration. A significant order seems all but certain in 2007.
 
airxliban
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:06 pm

Presumably these are Trent 800 birds?

Here's the link off the Boeing website:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2007/q1/070327c_nr.html
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AirSpare
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:31 pm

What is this "bridging order business? It seems like an a.net myth?

No where in the article is bridging mentioned, it was a purchase for 4 and 4 options.

My guess is BA has received permission to increase freqeuncies to eith LAD or LOS. I can't remember which, I think they have been trying to do dailies to one or the other. (Or both.)
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 17):
Presumably these are Trent 800 birds?

Not necessarily. BA have 772ERs with both GE and RR and have announced that they are negotiating with both companies. Could go either way.
 
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 19):
BA have 772ERs with both GE and RR and have announced that they are negotiating with both companies. Could go either way.

I know that and that is why I asked the question, but I was suggesting that they might be RR because the YMM* series of BA 772s were delivered more recently than the VII* series, and the former are equipped with Trent 800s.
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 20):
I was suggesting that they might be RR because the YMM* series of BA 772s were delivered more recently than the VII* series, and the former are equipped with Trent 800s.

Indeed and I suspect RR have the edge but the YMM* and the VII* fleets serve different routes. Which engine BA choose might depend on where they want to fly these planes.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 18):
What is this "bridging order business? It seems like an a.net myth?

No where in the article is bridging mentioned, it was a purchase for 4 and 4 options.

BA in the past has said they were looking at a "bridge" order between their current generation widebody twins and their next generation, which they did not expect to start taking delivery of until 2013. The 777-200ER and A330-300 were both mentioned as the two options being considered.

So it may very well be that these 772ERs are just for immediate expansion (though I have not read any such statements to that effect in the past six months on this board), but that BA also took additional options means I would not be surprised if BA will only take 772ERs up until they take delivery of their next generation widebody twins (be it the 787 or the A350XWB) so, technically, the 772ER will serve as a "bridging order".  Smile
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:39 pm

Wasn't this announced earlier? If not, congrats to BA and Boeing on another successful order.

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
But, if I'm not mistaken, AF already have 44 in service with several more to come soon. Am I wrong or are Boeing a little bit behind the curve?

Correct Sir. They have 44 in service with more to come I think.

http://airfleets.net/flottecie/Air%20France-active-b777.htm

MCOflyer

[Edited 2007-03-28 15:40:24]
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StarGoldLHR
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:44 pm

BA is in a mess.
Soon it will lose it's strangle on New York to London. The masses of 747's on this route will be downsized to 777's or 787's quite quickly.

However I would expect BA to offer a large capacity on long haul routes SFO/LAX/SEA/YVR/BKK/SIN/SYD/HKG as an A380 requirement.

I expect an A380 order, and a larger 787 order.

A350 doesnt fit BA's long haul fleet currently, and familiarity of the 787 and 777 will make sense.
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presidential
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For F

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
The comfort advantage of the A320 over the 737 is at least as great as the comfort advantage of the WhaleJet over the JumboJet, yet the 737 holds its own in sales.

What comfort advantage ???

I will take the leather seats on a Souwest flight any day over a NWA or USAir A320 .... I have always understood comfort to be dependent on how an airline configures the airplane ....

Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 9):
personally, if the pax comfort reports from the 380 ELFs and proving flights are anything to go by,

I am sure all the 'passengers' were all very un-biased and neutral with respect to Airbus  Yeah sure
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 24):
I expect an A380 order, and a larger 787 order.

I too believe that there is a very real chance of this order splitting between the two manufacturers. I guess only time will tell.
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:43 pm

I would not rule out the A380 for British Airways future long haul fleet, but I think that with this order for four additional B777 aircraft Boeing might propose BA a sweet deal for a batch of 10-15-maybe-20 B747-8 jumbo's.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 24):
However I would expect BA to offer a large capacity on long haul routes SFO/LAX/SEA/YVR/BKK/SIN/SYD/HKG as an A380 requirement.

I don't think LHR-SEA would justify the need for the A380, it would be easier to fill a B772, B787-10 or A350XWB (if BA buys either of the latter two) than a B748 or A380 on that route. I would add NRT, JNB (high season) and CPT (high season) to your list.

I would expect to see the B748 on the following routes out of LHR to start with: JNB and CPT off high seasons, GIG, GRU, MIA, and maybe Osaka ans Beijing.

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Birdseed
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For F

Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting PM (Reply 21):
Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 20):
I was suggesting that they might be RR because the YMM* series of BA 772s were delivered more recently than the VII* series, and the former are equipped with Trent 800s.

Indeed and I suspect RR have the edge but the YMM* and the VII* fleets serve different routes. Which engine BA choose might depend on where they want to fly these planes.

BA's RR and GE 777s serve the same routes; it's just that there are a few routes which can only be flown by the RR aircraft due to more restrictive single engine drift-down performance requirements.

Personally I think BA were sensible not to have a small order for A330s - the 777 makes much more sense and I expect engine choice will come down to little more than cost. The big order in the summer will be interesting though. I'm hoping they will go for more 777s (a mix - some 200s, 300s, and maybe LRs), many 787s, and ideally nothing with four engines. (And if not the 787, then the A350!)
 
hb88
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Presidential (Reply 25):
Quoting PM (Reply 13):
"The comfort advantage of the A320 over the 737 is at least as great as the comfort advantage of the WhaleJet over the JumboJet, yet the 737 holds its own in sales."

What comfort advantage ???

Space, quiet, storage room. Other than that, they're pretty much on a par.

Quoting Presidential (Reply 25):
Quoting Sketty222 (Reply 9):
"personally, if the pax comfort reports from the 380 ELFs and proving flights are anything to go by,"

I am sure all the 'passengers' were all very un-biased and neutral with respect to Airbus

... sigh... I know it's hard to resist the temptation to take an easy shot sometimes, but perhaps you weren't aware that most of the pax on the recent route proving trials and media circus flights have been media, customers and non-Airbus people.
 
hb88
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 8):
"Throwing a cat a amongst the pigeons with the pro-Boeing-militia... personally, if the pax comfort reports from the 380 ELFs and proving flights are anything to go by, Boeing will have to do something pretty stunning with the 748 to beat it."

The comfort advantage of the A320 over the 737 is at least as great as the comfort advantage of the WhaleJet over the JumboJet, yet the 737 holds its own in sales. Why? Because the operating costs are about the same. Looking at the weight and SFC advantages the 747-8 has over the WhaleJet suggests advantage Boeing in the marketplace. Orders so far support that hypothesis. Last year the 747 outsold the Whalejet 72 to 7 -- and 12 of those where 747-400Fs

You are quite right. But I was talking purely from the point of view of a passenger.
 
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For F

Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Presidential (Reply 25):
Quoting PM (Reply 13):
The comfort advantage of the A320 over the 737 is at least as great as the comfort advantage of the WhaleJet over the JumboJet, yet the 737 holds its own in sales.

What comfort advantage ???

I will take the leather seats on a Souwest flight any day over a NWA or USAir A320 .... I have always understood comfort to be dependent on how an airline configures the airplane ....

You hit the wrong button. It wasn't me that made the comment you quoted.  Angry
 
vv701
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 1):
Wonder why such a small order when they are looking to replace older long haul aircraft?

This order has nothing to do with fleet replacement. A decision on fleet replacement required that they first had the specification of the A350 1000. Airbus sent this to them earlier this week.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 5):
4 777 is about as exciting as another flight to Paris, its a non event.

Except that today BA operates Europe's largest 777 fleet of 43 aircraft (which now will become 47 or 51) and the world's largest fleet of 57 744s.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 23):
Wasn't this announced earlier?

Yes. Their intention to order 4 and to secure options on a further 4 was announced in February when they announced the 'order' but it was not signed until now.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 24):
BA is in a mess.

Except they were the world's most profitable passenger airline in 2006 and they very recently issued an Investor Update that stated that in 2008 they expected to achieve their long term strategic objective of a 10 per cent profit margin. UK Company Law now requires them to issue a Profit Warning as soon as there are any indications that this will not happen.

So it looks like that if 'BA is in a mess' every other airline excepting only FedEx is in a worse mess.
 
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:06 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 32):
BA operates Europe's largest 777 fleet of 43 aircraft

Actually, second largest. AF have 44.  Wink
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Boeing And British Airways Complete Deal For Four

Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:18 pm

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 24):
BA is in a mess.
Soon it will lose it's strangle on New York to London. The masses of 747's on this route will be downsized to 777's or 787's quite quickly

Wishful thinking on your part I'm afraid; LHR will always have runway capacity constraints; which gives an incentive to operate planes carrying larger numbers of passengers. In addition how is BA in a mess ? BA through its financial policies over the last 5 years has managed to drag itself out of the financial mire, without defaulting on its debts, wiping out its shareholders, or digging into a government begging bowl. If the same financial constraints had applied on the other side of the Atlantic BA and VS would really dominate on the UK - US routes, as the majority of the opposition would have been closed down long since.

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