Boeing7E7
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Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:53 am

Not for commercial aircraft, but runs on a fuel cell none the less....

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070327e_nr.html
 
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:56 am

You are aware that the 787 is fuel-cell ready, right? Even MSN1 will be retrofittable.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
You are aware that the 787 is fuel-cell ready, right?

I'm pretty sure the entire aviation world is aware. This is a fuel cell aircraft, not an APU.

"While Boeing does not envision that fuel cells will provide primary power for future commercial passenger airplanes, demonstrations like this help pave the way for potentially using this technology in small manned and unmanned air vehicles," Escarti said. "It also gives us hands-on experience to complement other fuel-cell studies being carried out throughout the company."

[Edited 2007-03-28 01:01:39]
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:08 am

Phantom Works = military apps.
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Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:13 am

I wonder how long it would take before the technology trickles down to a level that could be affordable by the General Aviation sector. But first, it must succeed.

BTW, I see this thread as more appropriate for Tech/Ops.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
You are aware that the 787 is fuel-cell ready, right? Even MSN1 will be retrofittable.

really? didnt know that....what exactly is a fuel cell though? i think i am confusing it with something else...
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siromega
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:34 pm

Fuel cell is a device which combines hydrogen with oxygen to create electricity. I assume that he means the APU could be replaced with a big fuel cell, but I dont know where they'd store the hydrogen. It would only give off water vapor, which could be used as potable water onboard the a/c.
 
zenarcade
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:47 pm

Pardon my ignorance but assuming this technology eventually reaches the GA market wouldn't the storage and handling of hydrogen be quite dangerous? I'm sure that there would be many other expenses behind the scenes as well, would it really be worth it?

How about the cost of hydrogen compared to jet fuel?
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3201
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

That didn't used to be the case, even a couple of years ago -- a lot of advanced civil R&D was there too. Are you just jumping to conclusions because of the name, or do you really know what you're talking about?
7 hours aint long-haul
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 6):
Fuel cell is a device which combines hydrogen with oxygen to create electricity. I assume that he means the APU could be replaced with a big fuel cell, but I dont know where they'd store the hydrogen. It would only give off water vapor, which could be used as potable water onboard the a/c.



Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 7):
How about the cost of hydrogen compared to jet fuel?

You wouldnt ship Hydrogen around, you would take a feed from a pure water source, split it using the reverse process and store the resultant hydrogen and oxygen in the fuel cell. All on site during the refueling process.

Of course it may never need fully refueling, just topping up - they could store the water created as part of the process and just have an external power source to split it on the ground again, with a little topping up done to replace any loss.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting 3201 (Reply 8):

Well they may have gotten off into some other stuff in the last few years, but everyone knows they've essentially been the Boeing (McD) equivalent to the Lockheed Skunk Works. The X-32 was developed by the Phantom Works.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:30 pm

Many technologies developed first for the military find civilian application...
 
deltadc9
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting 3201 (Reply 8):
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

That didn't used to be the case, even a couple of years ago -- a lot of advanced civil R&D was there too. Are you just jumping to conclusions because of the name, or do you really know what you're talking about?

AFAIK both Phantomworks at MD/Boeing and Skunkworks at Lockmart were developed so that those respective companes could R&D out of the NASA/JPL world spotlight. Never heard of any restrictions re civil vs military.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

Both true and not true. The Phantom Works does do military work, but they also developed the Sonic Cruiser a few years ago, and have been heavierly involved in the B-787 designs.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:57 am

So boeing just modified the Diamond Katana?
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
gigneil
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:59 am

Its a Dimona, not a Katana.

NS
 
Oroka
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 7):
Pardon my ignorance but assuming this technology eventually reaches the GA market wouldn't the storage and handling of hydrogen be quite dangerous?

Fuel cells wont necessarily have to use hydrogen. A recently developed technology uses almost any source of SUGAR to generate 3-4x the power that could be stored in a equivalent sized battery.

http://news.mongabay.com/2007/0326-battery.html
 
KELPkid
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 15):
Its a Dimona, not a Katana.

NS

Marketed in North America as the "Diamond Katana":

http://www.diamondair.com/mainpage.php

 Smile
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Vorticity
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 3):
Phantom Works = military apps.

Not true. Phantom Works is Boeing's designated Research and Development unit. While their ties are closer with the IDS division, they do develop technology for Boeing Commercial Airplanes.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
deltadc9
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 7):
Pardon my ignorance but assuming this technology eventually reaches the GA market wouldn't the storage and handling of hydrogen be quite dangerous? I'm sure that there would be many other expenses behind the scenes as well, would it really be worth it?

Fuel cell powered vehicles are already on the market built by GM and others. The US Army has a fleet of fuel cell chevy pickups, and they are about to unleash new more advanced vehicles ot the general public in the next couple years. Shouldnt be a problem for planes.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:41 am

Quote from the article: "A fuel cell is an electrochemical device that converts hydrogen directly into electricity and heat without combustion. Fuel cells are emission-free and quieter than hydrocarbon fuel-powered engines. They save fuel and are cleaner for the environment." End of quote.

And how do we produce hydrogen? Mostly by burning a lot of coal in electric power plants.

Always remember, hydrogen is not a power source. It's a power storage medium. By spending a lot of power you can create hydrogen, and then you can get some of that power back again by spending the hydrogen in a fuel cell or burning it in a turbine engine.

The hydrogen cycle is like charging and discharging a battery, no more, no less. But the storage medium is potentially less heavy than for instance a lead-acid battery of similar capacity.

Hydrogen fuel cells are as "emission-free" as the power source which produces it. Which is very dirty when produced from a coal fired power plant.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Mir
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RE: Boeing Has A New Toy....

Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 17):
Quoting Gigneil (Reply 15):
Its a Dimona, not a Katana.

NS

Marketed in North America as the "Diamond Katana":

A Dimona is not a Katana. I don't believe Diamond markets the Dimona in the US.

Katana:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © TZ Aviation



Dimona:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Florian Sindermann



One has a much larger wingspan than the other.

-Mir
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