NoWorries
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P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:54 pm

I know this has been discussed a lot in various threads -- but this seems like new news -- P&W is saying that they can have the GTF ready by 2012. ATWOnline article:

http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8389
 
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PM
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:57 pm

But according to FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL a week or two ago a 12% reduction in fuel consumption won't be enough to interest airlines. The collective opinion quoted by FLIGHT was that it must be "at least 15%". (JAL was even asking for 50%!)
 
NoWorries
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
The collective opinion quoted by FLIGHT was that it must be "at least 15%".

This article recognizes that as well, stating that manufacturers are looking for a 20% improvement in performance. So I'm wondering why make a point of saying that it could be available by 2012. Perhaps Boeing is closer to launching Y1 than previously thought.

[Edited 2007-03-29 15:05:49]
 
nijltje
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:04 pm

Ok but 12% is coming from the engine only...so 8% has to come from the airframe itself sounds possible if Airbus is looking at 5% improvement based on the same frame...
 
EI321
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:28 pm

If teh A320E can get a 6-7% improvement, then 20% must be achievable.
 
NoWorries
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 4):
If teh A320E can get a 6-7% improvement, then 20% must be achievable.

If the A320E + GTF can get close to a 20% improvement then Boeing will have no choice but to launch Y1 in order to stay competitive, whereas I think Airbus can get by with a revised A320 since it has the needed clearance under the wings for the new engine.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 4):
If teh A320E can get a 6-7% improvement, then 20% must be achievable.

Hasn't the A320E been quietly dropped as they found that fitting the winglets (that gave much of the aero gain) meant that the wings needed to be strengthened which meant more weight which cancelled out much of the aero gain?
 
NoWorries
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6):
Hasn't the A320E been quietly dropped as they found that fitting the winglets (that gave much of the aero gain) meant that the wings needed to be strengthened which meant more weight which cancelled out much of the aero gain?

I had heard about the winglet issue and knew that it had to be dropped -- weren't there other aspects to the A320E program that still had some benefit?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6):

Hasn't the A320E been quietly dropped as they found that fitting the winglets (that gave much of the aero gain) meant that the wings needed to be strengthened which meant more weight which cancelled out much of the aero gain?

The A320E was to gain fuel burn reduction through several other improvements including a revised wing/body fairing and improved engines, but I suspect it will be difficult to realize their initial goal now that the winglets have been kiboshed. It doesn't mean we won't see the remaining features implemented for a less dramatic improvement.

There was some speculation that PW might offer the GTF on the A320 series as part of the "Enhanced" program, but if the engine won't be ready by 2012, I can't see how that would happen...

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
JAL was even asking for 50%!

Then JAL can have fun flying kites because that really isn't going to happen anytime soon!  Wink

Quoting Nijltje (Reply 3):
Ok but 12% is coming from the engine only...so 8% has to come from the airframe itself sounds possible if Airbus is looking at 5% improvement based on the same frame...

But Airbus was counting on propulsion upgrades to provide a significant portion of those fuel burn savings. Since the new winglets have been aborted, what sort of airframe improvements Airbus has to offer? There's just no way the wing/body fairing alone will reduce fuel burn that greatly. An OEW reduction would be beneficial, but would likely carry too great a cost given the scope of the Enhanced program.

The implications are different if Airbus and Boeing would consider applying this engine to an all-new aircraft that could benefit from the latest aerodynamics, materials, and systems.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:02 am

How about a concorde style pointy nose to cut through the air more cleanly?  Big grin
 
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Stitch
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:09 am

Even if it won't be "perfect", an A320E with GTFs offering even 15% (which I think Airbus can get 3% out of the airframe with tweaks) would keep her relevant (i.e. - selling) in the face of Y1, just as the A330 continues to hold her own even with the 787 now months away from First Flight.

Yes, Y1 with a 20% reduction in fuel burn will be a massive seller (easily four digits before roll-out) just as that performance has secured ~500 sales for the 787 before her roll-out, but again, that doesn't mean every airline in the world will buy Y1 for the same reasons every airline in the world has not bought Y2 (the 787).
 
EI321
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Even if it won't be "perfect", an A320E with GTFs offering even 15% (which I think Airbus can get 3% out of the airframe with tweaks) would keep her relevant (i.e. - selling) in the face of Y1, just as the A330 continues to hold her own even with the 787 now months away from First Flight.

Yeah but most of the current A330 sales account for delivery slots when there are no 787s or A350s availaible (ie before 2013). The A330 is not winning RFPs against the 787, as airlines are comparing the A350XWB against the 787 now.

The issue with the A320 is odd, as the fuselage is a good size for short haul. So airbus has two choices, either do an all new design, or keep the A320 fuselage and change almost everything else (new engines; new cabin; A350 cockpit; composite wings, floor, stabilisers, tail, etc).

Airbus has said last year that they will do a composite A320 successor around 2015.

[Edited 2007-03-29 17:30:05]
 
NoWorries
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:33 am

I think it makes good sense for Airbus to pursue A320E - winglets + GTF. It won't be best in class compared to Y1 -- but Boeing and Airbus don't have to walk in lock-step here. At any point in time, one builder is going to better than the other -- as long as they're close, there's a huge market to share. They (Airbus and Boeing) need to push sooner rather than later -- the Chineese, Japanesse, Russians, Indians, et al (or some combination of them) will be on their heels -- they can't wait around and play it safe.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
The issue with the A320 is odd, as the fuselage is a good size for short haul. So airbus has two choices, either do an all new design, or keep the A320 fuselage and change almost everything else (new engines; new cabin; A350 cockpit; composite wings, floor, stabilisers, tail, etc).

I would expect that it may well cope with a A320NG approach unless the composite fuse of Y1 is such a weight and cost saving that the NSR has to be an entirely new design
 
EI321
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting NoWorries (Reply 12):
I think it makes good sense for Airbus to pursue A320E

Remember that the A320E is not a Y1 competitor, its just an A320 upgrade. Airbus have said that they are doing a composite A320 replacement.

Looking at this picture, theres not exactly a huge amount of work going onto the A320 Enhanced.



[Edited 2007-03-29 17:55:41]
 
Devilfish
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 8):
The implications are different if Airbus and Boeing would consider applying this engine to an all-new aircraft that could benefit from the latest aerodynamics, materials, and systems.

If A and B are not satisfied with just a 12% savings, would Embraer be happy enough with it to launch a completely new E-200+GTF? And could Bombardier follow suit with their again-deferred C-Series?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Lemurs
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:40 am

The thing an A320E program would have to content with re:Y1 is what the maintnance needs of a CFRP short-haul jet would mean versus a traditional Al plane. While the costs in the air might be within a few percentage points of each other, Boeing could still take a huge chunk out of Airbuses customer base if they can show a much lower ground cost and maintnace interval for heavy cycle airframes...and that could all be wiped out by an immature powerplant with a tweaky gearbox. It's a big set of variables.

If I'm not mistaken, this is part of the sales success of the 787 versus the 350 to begin with. As proposed by Airbus, they could get the operating efficiency of all the various 350 designs they've pushed near that of the 787, but as long as that aluminum skin was there, they were losing out on the total operating costs picture which drove the A350XWB proposal. Airplane efficency isn't entirely measured in the air afterall. Crew, maint, etc...all have to compete.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
Devilfish
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:22 am

Update:

P&W has begun assembly of its GTF engine demonstrator built around the PW6000 core.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...y-plan-as-pw9000-goes-on-line.html

Quote:
"This initiative, provisionally dubbed the PW9000, forms the basis for a range of new engines to tackle everything from the 10,000lb-thrust (45kN) range new business jet engine to the 30,000lb- class next-generation Airbus and Boeing single-aisle products. P&W hopes the plan will form the platform for generations of engines.

Using a baseline high-pressure core design, the company plans to develop a "flexible scaling strategy" to suit varying thrust requirements, including Bombardier's proposed CSeries airliner. 'We're looking at defining a scaleable core. So what that says is within a range of core sizes we will have the capability of scaling it up and scaling it down,' says engineering senior vice-president Paul Adams."


Could this prompt Bombardier's decision on the C-Series.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...on-cseries-is-still-up-in-air.html

.....or might Embraer be the first to jump the gun?

Absent preliminary PW9000 range test results, it's unlikely that A or B would blink first.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Rheinbote
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RE: P&W Says GTF Ready By 2012

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:40 am

Could be a viable replacement for the CF34 in the lower end of the advertised 10-35klbs thrust bracket. Maybe such an engine could provide a new lease of life to the CRJ? Its tail-mounted engines may prove to be less constraining to larger diameter engines than the ERJ's under-wing pod-mounted design. I guess engine weight would be critical though.
A 25-35klbs engine by 2012 would provide Boeing with an option for another 3+ years headstart on Airbus's, this time in the new single-aisle market.
In any case, this would require something like a somersault backwards for both A's and B's communications departments
"There will be no engine available before 2015"  liar 

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