jycarlisle
Posts: 242
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AF To Start AM Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:02 am

A clip from my e-mail box:


=============================================================================
New Morning JFK Flight, Seattle Our Newest Gateway

New Morning Flight from New York/JFK to Paris starts May 1, 2007

Be refreshed for your meeting or sightseeing the next day, travel hassle free: no rush hour traffic and eliminate jetlag. Travel to Paris from JFK on our new morning flight and you'll also enjoy our great same day short connections to Africa, Middle East and Asia to Bangui, Djibouti, Dubai, Honk Kong, Johannesburg, Libreville, Luanda, Malabo, Pointe Noire, Shanghai, Singapore, Tokyo and many more destinations.

AF 005 DEPARTS NEW YORK/JFK 7:50 AM - ARRIVES PARIS/CDG 9:00 PM (daily except Mon.)
AF 004 DEPARTS PARIS/CDG 9:00 PM - ARRIVES NEW YORK/JFK 11:15PM (daily except Sun.)
Starting 16 June, 2007, they'll operate daily

You'll also travel in the comfort of the New Travel Concept seats with a lie-flat bed and adjustable lower back support, a PC power socket and video on demand in l'Espace Affaires and added space in Tempo.

Seattle Nonstop to Paris and the World starts June 11

Now you can travel nonstop from Seattle to Paris service with easy connections to Air France’s expansive global network throughout Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Africa.

AF041 DEPARTS SEATTLE 4:55 PM - ARRIVES PARIS/CDG 11:40 AM the following day
AF046 DEPART PARIS/CDG 1:20 PM - ARRIVES SEATTLE 2 :35 PM the same day
Flights will be operated using Airbus 330-200

=================================================================================
Cheers,
Jeremy Carlisle
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
dutchjet
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AF To Start AM Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:13 am

It will be interesting to see how AF does with its daylight flight from JFK to CDG and the evening return.....while daylight flights have been offered on certain routes from US biz centers to London, in general, they have not worked to any other European city as most biz and leisure travellers to Europe would prefer not ""to waste"" a day flying to their destination; evening flights from Europe to the US are also difficult as many pax have no intestest in arriving in the US on the westbound journey in the middle of the night. Obvsiously, this new AF service must work almost exclusively on O&D traffic between NYC and Paris.....few connections are possible (maybe some pax that originate in LAX/SFO and catch the redeye to JFK, arrive in JFK in time for the JFK_CDG flight, but even thats a strech.)

TW tried daylight service on the JFK-Paris route about a million years ago (actually, it was probably the early 1980s) and operated 1011s on the daylight flight to Paris and evening return.....the flight lasted one or two summers and was cancelled thereafter, it really did not catch on. That was many years ago, so I give AF credit for trying again.

I do find it odd that the flight does not operate Sunday to JFK and Monday morning to Paris (atleast for the first 6 weeks of service).....I would think that the late Sunday night flight out of CDG would be a very popular alternative for biz people; can spend all day Sunday in Paris with family and fly out in the evening and be fresh for a Monday morning meeting in NYC.

Its going to be interesting to see if AF can make this work....I assume that this service will operate with A332s?
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

AF To Start AM Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:20 am

Dutchjet, you beat me to punch I was just about to ask "Why don't most airlines have a day flight to Europe?" Thanks for answer.

IMO it would make sense to take day flight. Its no different than the LAX-JFK market, nobody has a problem loosing the day on that route to do biz in NYC the next day. I would think by taking the red eyes that you would be a vegtable the next morning for an important meeting in EUrope. But, I guess with the scheer number of evening JFK departures, that's just my mis perception and not reality.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
few connections are possible

Even on the Paris end of things, connections are sparse other than onesie-twosies to some esoteric African destinations, if that. Plus with the additional flying time and time change over London, Paris requires a full day of flying, whereas an 8am departure from NYC and 8pm arrival in London doesn't sound half bad, against a 750am departure from NYC and 9pm arrival in CDG. I really don't think this will work but good luck!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 2):
IMO it would make sense to take day flight. Its no different than the LAX-JFK market,

There is a subtle difference in timing.....the east coast-Europe flights are longer and more time zones are involved.

1. On a JFK-EUrope flight, there is enough time to get a few hours rest, on LAX-JFK, there is time for a nap, nothing more.....that makes the night flights to Europe a better opiton.

2. Daylight from LAX or SFO......you can depart for the east coast up until about noon and be at your destinaton at a reasonable hour. If you depart LAX/SFO at 900. your in NYC for dinner with family or biz associates.....no problem, and the times are very human. Look at the timing for the JFK-Paris service: A 0750 departure means being at the airport at 0630 at the latest.......thus for most its up by 0500 at the latest, out of the door by 0545, etc.....that sucks. And arriving in Paris at 2100 means you wont be out of the airport until 2145 or 2200 (customs/immigration/baggage/etc) and you wont be in your hotel room or home until 2300.....that also sucks. Get my point?
 
FoxBravo
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
Obvsiously, this new AF service must work almost exclusively on O&D traffic between NYC and Paris.....few connections are possible



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Even on the Paris end of things, connections are sparse other than onesie-twosies to some esoteric African destinations, if that.

That's not entirely true--although there are not really any connections on the NYC side, and I'm sure many passengers will be traveling to/from Paris, AF does have an 11pm bank of long-haul departures out of CDG to places like JNB, LAD, PNR, DXB and others that could otherwise require a very long layover for those originating in the US. It doesn't hurt that some of these are oil destinations that could add some high-yield traffic to the mix.

Given the success of daylight routes from the US to London, which have a devoted following among both business and leisure travelers, I see no reason why AF should have trouble with one daily morning departure from JFK. In fact, if the flight is marketed properly, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 777 operating it within a year or so.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 5):
That's not entirely true--although there are not really any connections on the NYC side, and I'm sure many passengers will be traveling to/from Paris, AF does have an 11pm bank of long-haul departures out of CDG to places like JNB, LAD, PNR, DXB and others that could otherwise require a very long layover for those originating in the US. It doesn't hurt that some of these are oil destinations that could add some high-yield traffic to the mix

The destinations out of Paris are rather limited.....this flight is primarily about O&D traffic.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 5):
Given the success of daylight routes from the US to London, which have a devoted following among both business and leisure travelers,

London is a much bigger market that Paris......and the fact that travel time to/from London is about one hour less than Paris and that there is 5 hours of time difference between the US east coast and London, and 6 hours of time difference between the US East Coast and Paris makes a BIG difference......the arrival and depature times on the London bound daylight flights much more attractive than the times for the Paris bound daylight flights.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 5):
I see no reason why AF should have trouble with one daily morning departure from JFK. In fact, if the flight is marketed properly, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 777 operating it within a year or so.

Then why hasnt AF tried daylight flights until now? And why have other carriers that attempted the service failed? And why dont other European carriers offer daylight services to places like AMS, FRA, AMS? Simple, the demand is limited. I would be very surprised to see AF upgrade this flight to a 777.....I am curious if the A332 daylight flight will last beyond the summer.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 5):
AF does have an 11pm bank of long-haul departures out of CDG to places like JNB, LAD, PNR, DXB

Wanna bet how many connections those flights, particularly PNR and LAD, will generate? Wink I bet I can count the average PDEW on one hand.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Viscount724
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
It will be interesting to see how AF does with its daylight flight from JFK to CDG



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 5):
I see no reason why AF should have trouble with one daily morning departure from JFK. In fact, if the flight is marketed properly, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 777 operating it within a year or so.

Then why hasnt AF tried daylight flights until now? And why have other carriers that attempted the service failed? And why dont other European carriers offer daylight services to places like AMS, FRA, AMS? Simple, the demand is limited. I would be very surprised to see AF upgrade this flight to a 777.....I am curious if the A332 daylight flight will last beyond the summer.

In fact, this isn't AF's first daylight flight from JFK to CDG. They had a daytime flight for a short period in the latter days of 707 service, probably in the mid to late 1970s. By then the overnight flight was a 747 but they introduced a 707 daytime flight which may have lasted a year or two. I used it once. It had an upgraded inflight product, including Y class. If memory correct, they left the middle seat empty.
 
dutchjet
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):

In fact, this isn't AF's first daylight flight from JFK to CDG. They had a daytime flight for a short period in the latter days of 707 service, probably in the mid to late 1970s. By then the overnight flight was a 747 but they introduced a 707 daytime flight which may have lasted a year or two. I used it once. It had an upgraded inflight product, including Y class. If memory correct, they left the middle seat empty.

Interesting......thanks for pointing that out, I dont remember that flight but do remember the TW service as I mentioned above.

An upgraded Y product with middle seats left empty....those were the good old days.
 
flyguy1
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
TW tried daylight service on the JFK-Paris route about a million years ago (actually, it was probably the early 1980s) and operated 1011s on the daylight flight to Paris and evening return.....the flight lasted one or two summers and was cancelled thereafter, it really did not catch on. That was many years ago, so I give AF credit for trying again.

IIRC, this route was operated around 1993 or so, though it did not last long.
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:50 am

I'd always wondered why AF hadn't introduced a daylight flight to CDG before now, since their Concorde services were daylight. Obviously it was faster, but it was still daylight.

The figures given when the new EU/US OAA was announced said that TATL traffic will be up 50% in the next 5 years. Not everyone can or will want to fly on the 6pm from JFK, so I give this a better chance of success than in the past.
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jfk777
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:51 am

Air France is trying this because they will have 4 evening flights from JFK to CDG already so one more is realy one too many. AF operates an early 8am departure from CDG to JFK arriving at JFK about 10:30am, so having a late departurerounds out the schedule. They already have a 1pm, a 4pm and a 6 pm for the summer.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
London is a much bigger market that Paris

That's true, but we're only talking about one flight, which would seem in proportion to the size of the market.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
and the fact that travel time to/from London is about one hour less than Paris and that there is 5 hours of time difference between the US east coast and London, and 6 hours of time difference between the US East Coast and Paris makes a BIG difference......the arrival and depature times on the London bound daylight flights much more attractive than the times for the Paris bound daylight flights.

I often hear this argument, but I don't really buy it, and here's why:

First, the daylight US-London market is not limited to NY. For years, morning flights have been offered successfully from IAD, YYZ and ORD, all of which are longer flying time, and ORD has the additional hour of time difference too. First look at the schedule and flying time for the new flight:

AF - 0750 JFK 2100 CDG (7:10)

Now compare those other daytime flights:

UA - 0926 IAD 2155 LHR (7:29)
AC - 0900 YYZ 2100 LHR (7:15)
AA - 0910 ORD 2240 LHR (7:30)

Evidently people have no problem sitting on a plane for 7+ hours during the day, and don't mind arriving at 9pm or later local time. So that leaves the question of the departure time out of JFK, which is earlier than these flights--will people tolerate a 7:50 departure? Well, let's look at the schedules of the NYC-LHR flights:

VS - 0730 JFK 1910 LHR (6:40)
BA - 0750 JFK 1935 LHR (6:45)
VS - 0820 EWR 2000 LHR (6:40)
AA - 0830 JFK 2025 LHR (6:55)
BA - 0845 JFK 2030 LHR (6:45)

Judging by these departure times, especially the first two, it would seem that people have no problem leaving that early in the morning. I would also note that the difference in scheduled flying time to Paris is really only half an hour compared to London. To those business and leisure travelers who have a preference for daytime flights--and we know they exist, based on the number of options to London--leaving at 7:50 am and arriving at 9 pm is not unreasonable at all.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
Then why hasnt AF tried daylight flights until now? And why have other carriers that attempted the service failed?

AF has increased capacity significantly in the NY market in general over the past few years. It could just be that, from AF's perspective, the market hasn't been mature enough until now. But at this point, how many more evening flights can they add? It makes more sense to try offering something a little different. And as Jfk777 pointed out, the late westbound departure is also an interesting option to some travelers.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
And why have other carriers that attempted the service failed?

The only one I know if is TWA, and as I recall it was sort of a halfhearted effort that didn't last very long, and there was not even a possibility of connections beyond Paris.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):

Wanna bet how many connections those flights, particularly PNR and LAD, will generate? Wink I bet I can count the average PDEW on one hand.

Fair enough.  Smile But one or two people up front going to PNR or LAD on business could make a big difference! JNB on the other hand could generate bigger numbers--note that AF will now offer one of the fastest connections between NYC and South Africa.

I could be proven wrong, and this flight could be pulled after the summer schedule. But I think the market is ready for it, and I think AF is certainly the right airline to try it, so I remain optimistic. We'll just have to wait and see who is right!
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):

Your logic and reasoning are excellent......but, I will say it again, the London and Paris markets are very very different....there seems to be the ""intangible"" factor that makes a huge difference in the markets. London just works differently than any other European city......in part due the huge passenger numbers.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
The only one I know if is TWA, and as I recall it was sort of a halfhearted effort that didn't last very long, and there was not even a possibility of connections beyond Paris

Nor are there any ""important"" connections on the AF service, aside from a possible DXB bound pax who declined to fly with EK or a JNB passenger not on the SAA flight....the new AF flight has to work on an O&D basis. TWA's effort did not last very long for one reason...the loads were dismal. TW flew daylight to London for years, as you probably know, and did want JFK-CDG daylight flight to work, but it was dropped due to lack of pax interest. But, that was then and this is now...and so many things have changed, most importantly pax numbers are far greater on the route.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
I could be proven wrong, and this flight could be pulled after the summer schedule. But I think the market is ready for it, and I think AF is certainly the right airline to try it, so I remain optimistic.

I agree.....I am cautiously optimistic as well, as I said above (Post 1), I give AF credit for trying a daylight service on the route, it could just work with the A332....but I really cant imagine the route upgrading to a 777 as you suggested above.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
We'll just have to wait and see who is right!

Absolutely. Cheers.
 
jycarlisle
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:10 am

RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 12):
They already have a 1pm, a 4pm and a 6 pm for the summer.

Good point.

Even though I didn't like the early departure (5:05PM EST) and arrival time for AF 023 into CDG (approx. 5:15 AM), I must admit that I needed the extra time to pass the horrible customs crowds, find my luggage, the hotel shuttle, and to check into my hotel. (The flight landed at 5:15AM and I didn't make it to my hotel room until 11:45AM.)

The only reason why I took that flight was the fact it was a 772. Big grin
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
panamair
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 12):
Air France is trying this because they will have 4 evening flights from JFK to CDG already so one more is realy one too many. AF operates an early 8am departure from CDG to JFK arriving at JFK about 10:30am, so having a late departurerounds out the schedule. They already have a 1pm, a 4pm and a 6 pm for the summer.

Actually, during the peak summer season, AF has had/and will continue to have 5 evening flights between JFK and CDG:
AF 23 at around 5pm
AF 17 at around 6pm
AF 7 at around 7:45pm
AF 11 at around 9pm
AF 9 at around 10:50pm
not to mention the codeshare on the DL-operated JFK-CDG departing around 6pm. This AM flight is its 6th daily (on its own metal).
 
incitatus
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
Look at the timing for the JFK-Paris service: A 0750 departure means being at the airport at 0630 at the latest.......thus for most its up by 0500 at the latest, out of the door by 0545, etc.....that sucks. And arriving in Paris at 2100 means you wont be out of the airport until 2145 or 2200 (customs/immigration/baggage/etc) and you wont be in your hotel room or home until 2300.....that also sucks. Get my point?

Let me tell you what sucks more  Smile
AF23, the 5 pm departure, sucks more than than AF5, the 7:50am departure. Here is why:

Get through hellish traffic to arrive at JFK at 3:30 pm.

Board on time to find out the airplane is number 26 for departure, spending 50 minutes in line to take off.

Sit among a bunch of happy tourists drinking wine and chatting noisily for the next four hours like they have never heard of jet lag or time zones.

Doze off for 15 minutes at around 10 pm NY time to be awaken by the FA for breakfast.

Arrive in Paris like the previous night did not exist.

I think the morning departure is a good choice for NY-Paris travel and it will do better than AF expects. Frankfurt is absolutely NOT Paris, so Lufthansa is unlikely to try to imitate Air France.  Sad
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panamair
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
AF23, the 5 pm departure, sucks more than than AF5, the 7:50am departure. Here is why:

I know you're talking about the general evening chaos at JFK but AF 23 in my experiences, is often the best flight (of the evening ones) to take because the delays at JFK are nowhere near as bad as the later ones; it almost always pushes back from the gate on time (the aircraft has been there from the morning) and the taxi queue is usually at most 30-40 minutes (unlike the 1 hour+ for the 6-8pm departures)....
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
First, the daylight US-London market is not limited to NY. For years, morning flights have been offered successfully from IAD, YYZ and ORD

and BOS, too. AA flies this one.

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
leaving at 7:50 am and arriving at 9 pm is not unreasonable at all.

No, it's not unreasonable. While arriving at the airport before 6:00 (thus awaking around 4:00 a.m.) sounds uncivilized, remember that you're doing this to travel east six time zones. If you get up at 4:00 a.m. and get to bed at midnight, that's only a 14-hour day - and it's followed by a good night's sleep! Seriously, of the three times I've gone to LGW/LHR, I've done daylight twice. The first times was a PIT-LGW timed similarly to this:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
Let me tell you what sucks more
AF23, the 5 pm departure, sucks more than than AF5, the 7:50am departure. Here is why:

Get through hellish traffic to arrive at JFK at 3:30 pm.

Board on time to find out the airplane is number 26 for departure, spending 50 minutes in line to take off.

Sit among a bunch of happy tourists drinking wine and chatting noisily for the next four hours like they have never heard of jet lag or time zones.

Doze off for 15 minutes at around 10 pm NY time to be awaken by the FA for breakfast.

Arrive in Paris like the previous night did not exist.

This scenario is not fun!

Seriously, I just moved from NYC to CSG (near ATL) last summer ... If I still lived in NYC, this would make Paris so much more attractive as a destination!

Long-live AF5!
 
BigOrange
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:59 pm

I just wish LH would start a daytime flight to Frankfurt. It would save us a lot of headaches in trying to get people to MUC in time for early morning meetings which for some reason our German colleagues like to schedule!
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 536
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 20):
I just wish LH would start a daytime flight to Frankfurt. It would save us a lot of headaches in trying to get people to MUC in time for early morning meetings which for some reason our German colleagues like to schedule!

Umm...

I think early morning meetings in Munich would still be a problem. If a flight JFK-FRA landed at 9:00 p.m., passengers would have to clear immigration and customs (security, too?) and then board a connecting flight to MUC, the last of which leaves at 22:05. This seems a risky connection, at best.

The first morning flight leaves at 6:30 with a 7:25 arrival. That would be more doable, but would require an overnight stay at FRA.
 
bond007
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:17 pm

Yeah I don't buy the 'overnight flight is better' argument !

First of all, few people are doing a full days work before their evening flight to Europe. They are often connecting from elsewhere to ORD, JFK etc., so depart sometime during the day before anyway ... 'wasted day' again. So you arrive at Paris at 8:00am the next morning, by the time you get your bags and clear customs etc. etc. then get your car/train, and arrive at your destination, it's time for a long lunch ... and you are probably working at 20% due to not getting any sleep on the flight anyway. You can't wait to get to the hotel room - miss dinner - and fall asleep from 6:00pm to 6:00am the next day. You might just as well as arrived at 2300 the night before, got 7hrs sleep, and be fresh for your next morning meeting.

Having done overnight flights to Europe for both business and pleasure, I see little advantage to overnight vs daylight flights .. in fact one might argue more advantages for daylight flights. It's more of a 'perceived' advantage, rather than anything else, and the idea of 'losing' or 'wasting' a whole day.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
dutchjet
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 22):
Yeah I don't buy the 'overnight flight is better' argument !

Passengers (and especially business passengers) overwhelming prefer overnight flights on longhaul/multi-timezone segments:

1. From an arrival and depature point of view, daylight only works on select ""shorter"" transatlantic flights....its OK on East Coast to London, but its only marginal on East Coast to Central Europe, and impossible on most other routes as one would be departing at the crack of dawn and arriving in the middle of the night. Even the JFK-CDG timing is so-so...it could work, but lots of pax will not be thrilled with the early AM depature and the late evening arrival.

2. No matter how one analyzes the situation, a daylight flight to Europe is a completely lost day from a business and travel point of view. A pax must leave their homes or hotels in the US at the crack of dawm and will not be in Europe at their home or hotel until very late in the evening. Time is money for biz travellers....thats how biz travellers justify expensive J and F class tickets, they can actually rest on the airplane, arrive in Europe in the morning fit for work after a quick shower. And, for the leisure crowd, an evening flight results in an extra day to spend in Europe or the US.

3. There is a market for daylight flights, but its very limited......East Coast-London works due to better timings (shorter flights, 5 hours time differerence, not 6) and due to huge market that flies between the US and London. This JFK-CDG flight has a chance of working....a reasonable chance as the market is growing.....but overnight flights between the US and Europe will dominate unless and until faster airplanes are developed.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 22):
Yeah I don't buy the 'overnight flight is better' argument !

That's great but the entire market begs to differ seeing as daylight eastbound European flights are the slim minority...and not because they're unbelievably profitable.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
incitatus
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 18):
I know you're talking about the general evening chaos at JFK but AF 23 in my experiences, is often the best flight (of the evening ones) to take because the delays at JFK are nowhere near as bad as the later ones; it almost always pushes back from the gate on time (the aircraft has been there from the morning) and the taxi queue is usually at most 30-40 minutes (unlike the 1 hour+ for the 6-8pm departures)....

Indeed there is a big difference between a 5pm and a 7pm departure. That why I didn't write number #42 for departure.  Wink
I think the difference will narrow as airlines push departures earlier because JFK has been getting more and more movements.
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HB-IWC
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:13 pm

The entire discussion pertaining to a passenger's perceived preference for overnight flights is tenuous at best. Sure enough, the vast majority of transatlantic flights will always be overnight, but these operational setups are dictated by geopgraphical facts rather than by a perceived preference for overnight flights.

On those routes where both daylight and overnight flights are possible, airlines have long been steering away from daylight operations and absorbed increased ground times and lower utilization rates in order to be able to offer passengers the overnight flights they supposedly desired.

Yet, over the past couple of years, there has been an increasing tendency to add daylight longhaul sectors and cash in on the increased utilization of available resources on such sectors as Europe-South Africa, Europe-South America, South East Asia-Europe and even North America-South America, and many of these operations, which have replaced former double overnight patterns, are performing just fine.

As said, the preference for overnight flights is merely perceived, and once the market gets confronted with the daylight alternative, in most cases, that turns out just fine. I would expect a further swing towards increased daylight longhaul flying on the sectors mentioned before, as airlines try to squeeze the most out of the resources that are available to them.

Incidentally, the Europe-India market, somewhat similar to the East Coast US-Europe sectors, albeit with slightly less time zones to cross, has for decades used daylight eastbound operations, and outright horrible arrival and departures times in the Subcontinent, but that has never precluded passengers from flying between the Old Continent and the Subcontinent.

As for the new AF daylight operation, I like to imagine that the airline has done its homework. Advance booking look acceptable, albeit not as strong as the evening flights out of JFK, but I am pretty confident that this flight will last longer than just one season.
 
bond007
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
Passengers (and especially business passengers) overwhelming prefer overnight flights on longhaul/multi-timezone segments:

My point is that much of this is for perceived rather than logical reasons. They don't necessarily 'prefer' overnight flights - they don't have any option BUT fly overnight.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
2. No matter how one analyzes the situation, a daylight flight to Europe is a completely lost day from a business and travel point of view. A pax must leave their homes or hotels in the US at the crack of dawm and will not be in Europe at their home or hotel until very late in the evening. Time is money for biz travellers....thats how biz travellers justify expensive J and F class tickets, they can actually rest on the airplane, arrive in Europe in the morning fit for work after a quick shower. And, for the leisure crowd, an evening flight results in an extra day to spend in Europe or the US.

It matters a heck of a lot how you analyze it. I travel for business to Europe many times a year, and I can tell you that to get to JFK/ORD/PHL/BOS for a 7pm flight, for most pax connecting from somewhere else, that whole day is shot anyway! Even if they live close to JFK, I guarantee not too many are working a full day. Then, most people don't get to their 'business meeting' at 9:00am the following day in Europe. Late morning or lunch might be good ... then dead for the rest of the day because of no sleep.

Overnight flights are great if you live 10 mins from JFK and have a meeting 10 mins from LHR ... if you live anywhere else, need a connecting flight, and have a meeting in Portsmouth, UK .... then 'wasted time' is little different.

Jimbo

[Edited 2007-03-30 16:35:17]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
FoxBravo
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 19):
and BOS, too. AA flies this one.

True, as does BA, both for many years. I left these out only because they are slightly shorter than the routes out of JFK and other cities, but they further underscore my argument regarding the appeal of daytime transatlantic flights.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
Your logic and reasoning are excellent......but, I will say it again, the London and Paris markets are very very different....there seems to be the ""intangible"" factor that makes a huge difference in the markets. London just works differently than any other European city......in part due the huge passenger numbers.

Point taken. I agree that London is in a class by itself among transatlantic destinations from the US due to the size of the market. However, I would argue that the NY-Paris market, which has seen large capacity increases by AF and others over the past few years, is developing to a point where it is starting to look a bit more like the London market. It is certainly much stronger than markets such as IAD and BOS to London which have been able to support morning flights.

Than again, I know very well that in this industry, flights that by "logic and reasoning" should succeed often fail, and vice versa!
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
jacobin777
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
Judging by these departure times, especially the first two, it would seem that people have no problem leaving that early in the morning. I would also note that the difference in scheduled flying time to Paris is really only half an hour compared to London. To those business and leisure travelers who have a preference for daytime flights--and we know they exist, based on the number of options to London--leaving at 7:50 am and arriving at 9 pm is not unreasonable at all.

I recently flew AA142....departed JFK 8:30 am and arrived LHR 2025.....I actually preferred it as I stayed awake during the duration of the flight....got to LHR in the evening...got to my hotel, had a light dinner and went to sleep by 11:00-11:30 p.m....had a very comfortable sleep....woke up the following moring completely fine (and ready to spot.. bigthumbsup  ).....my sleep pattern was competely unaffected...
"Up the Irons!"
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 26):
As said, the preference for overnight flights is merely perceived, and once the market gets confronted with the daylight alternative, in most cases, that turns out just fine. I would expect a further swing towards increased daylight longhaul flying on the sectors mentioned before, as airlines try to squeeze the most out of the resources that are available to them.

What I think SA)">HB-IWC is saying is that Europe-North America is a different geographical reality than the other types of sectors he mentioned.

In the case of SA)">NA-SA, airlines have traditionally used double overnight patterns, which is not optimal a/c utilization. The most efficient way would be overnight southbound and daylight northbound, at least for North American carriers. I haven't analyzed the situation for South American carriers.

However, in the case of SA)">NA-EU, the overnight east/daylight west pattern is, in fact, the most efficient for utilization. A daylight eastbound means that it takes just over one aircraft to do a daily rotation, as the eastbound gets in too late to turn and fly west again to arrive before midnight. This makes it inefficient for North American carriers to operate daylight eastbound flights - the westbound must operate either first thing in the morning (when overnight-flying a/c also need to turn west) or later in the afternoon (meaning ground time at CDG or LHR or LGW is perhaps 20 hours)

On the other hand, it's not such a big deal for the likes of AF, BA, or VS to operate a late-evening westbound, RON, and fly back east. If they have longhaul planes arriving from other places in the afternoon, say from the MidEast or South America or Asia, a plane can leave CDG after supper, arrive at JFK almost at midnight, RON, and return the next day. When the NYC flight arrives in CDG at 2100, it can turn and run to the MidEast or Africa.

All that to say, it's less inefficient for European carriers to operate NYC flights like this than it would be for DL or CO. AA does it, but they have so many flights into LHR their ground times aren't that bad, and allow for flexibility in case irrops.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 26):
Incidentally, the Europe-India market, somewhat similar to the East Coast US-Europe sectors, albeit with slightly less time zones to cross, has for decades used daylight eastbound operations, and outright horrible arrival and departures times in the Subcontinent, but that has never precluded passengers from flying between the Old Continent and the Subcontinent.

Right. I believe airlines operated (and still sometimes operate) this way so that an aircraft arriving at LHR or CDG first thing in the morning from North America or India can turn either to North America or India (and correspondingly, pax can connect), and on and on - it streamlines fleet use, though requiring more stands.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
They don't necessarily 'prefer' overnight flights - they don't have any option BUT fly overnight.

Airlines don't fly flights that passengers don't want...at least not for long Silly

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 26):
has for decades used daylight eastbound operations, and outright horrible arrival and departures times in the Subcontinent, but that has never precluded passengers from flying between the Old Continent and the Subcontinent.

That's because they're timed to connect with an enormous amount of flow traffic from accross the Atlantic as well as regional morning arrivals; on the return they are scheduled to arrive first thing in the morning, again for connections onward to the Americas and regional destinations.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
bond007
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
Airlines don't fly flights that passengers don't want...at least not for long

Well of course they do when you need to get from A to B and there are no other options. Most flights I get (over 100/year), are never exactly the times I want them, but that's when they fly .... so that's when I go. Excepting getting the QE2 across the Atlantic, we go when the airlines fly.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
That's because they're timed to connect with an enormous amount of flow traffic from accross the Atlantic as well as regional morning arrivals; on the return they are scheduled to arrive first thing in the morning, again for connections onward to the Americas and regional destinations.

Exactly! So the argument for all these business people leaving the office at 6pm and arriving at the London office for a 9:00am meeting is hardly valid. Sure, there are a few people that have one-day meetings in Europe, but for the majority of pax, a day is 'wasted' whether it's a daylight or overnight flight, especially if you are connecting at one or both ends (as many are).


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 32):
are never exactly the times I want them, but that's when they fly

You'd be surprised how a flight's revenue can dry up with a five minute time difference. Obviously there are a lot more constraints than just "when people wnat to go" but a 0600 departure can make a huge difference compared to a 0555 departure.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 32):
for the majority of pax, a day is 'wasted' whether it's a daylight or overnight flight, especially if you are connecting at one or both ends

The fact is that daylight schedules have been tried just about everywhere (transatlantic, Europe/S. Africa, N America/ S America) and they are overwhelmingly unsuccessful, so much so that airlines generally would rather have a plane sit all day in JNB/GRU/GIG etc rather than fly it back during the day. They only work in markets that are big enough to handle the capacity or need the onward connections.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Even on the Paris end of things, connections are sparse other than onesie-twosies to some esoteric African destinations, if that.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Wanna bet how many connections those flights, particularly PNR and LAD, will generate? I bet I can count the average PDEW on one hand.

= Ok, I actually think PNR, LAD, and some of the other African destinations would do super well for AF premium traffic. I have actually been booked on 3 of these flights - each time connecting to JNB. Will definitely have a trip report if I make them. I absolutely detest AF and hate transiting through CDG more - BUT, might take one of my JNB flights via CDG to see if AF have improved at all since my last sojourn with them.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:35 am

This is a far more interesting discussion than I would have expected.....there are many view points concerning the daylight vs overnight eastbound transatlantic flights. I travel between Europe and the US more than 10 times per year...I accomplish a lot until my evning departure and arrive in Europe at about 800AM the next day, get to the office by 1100AM and put in a reasonable day's work, all without problem. Most travellers seem to agree with this approach, others do not, and thats why choice is a good thing.....but most transatlantic markets cannot support both daylight and overnight service.

An important issue that is not being discussed is hubs and connections........daylight flights from US to Europe must succeed mainly on O&D traffic since they depart too early for inbound connections and arrive too late for many outbound connections....this is a major consideration because once you get beyond flights connecting cities other than NYC, BOS, ORD and WAS with London and Paris and maybe, maybe Frankfurt, there are few flights that work solely on O&D traffic.

I guess at the end of the story, the schedules speak for themselves.......the overwhelming majority of US-Europe flights fly overnight. As I said many posts ago, I give AF credit for attempting a daylight flight on the important JFK-CDG run and it will be interesting to see if it succeeds.....they key questions will be if AF can keep the premium cabins on the daylight flight filled with full fare passengers and if the higher-yeilding coach passengers have interest in the flight.
 
bond007
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):
Obviously there are a lot more constraints than just "when people wnat to go" but a 0600 departure can make a huge difference compared to a 0555 departure.

But the reality is, it obviously doesn't matter one jot - that's my point. Again, it's perception not reality, and not based on tangible factors ... just like $49.99 or $50.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
incitatus
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
An important issue that is not being discussed is hubs and connections........daylight flights from US to Europe must succeed mainly on O&D traffic since they depart too early for inbound connections and arrive too late for many outbound connections....this is a major consideration because once you get beyond flights connecting cities other than NYC, BOS, ORD and WAS with London and Paris and maybe, maybe Frankfurt, there are few flights that work solely on O&D traffic.

Exactly. Daylight eastbounds are unlikely to become the latest rage in the transtlantic market. But any market with a total of close to 10 daily departures should be able to support a morning departure.

How about the reverse deal: an overnight westbound with a very late departure? For example, a midnight departure out of England or Italy to come to Miami with the South America arrivals at around 4:30am???
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RIXrat
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:55 am

For rebooking reasons not due to my part, I ended up on AF 9 leaving JFK for CDG at around 2300. After dinner was served, it was time for New Yorkers and those connecting from the U.S. to go to sleep, because of natural sleep time. Everyone was tired and there were no rowdies aboard.

The next day -- I believe it was around 1300 -- we landed at CDG and everyone was fresh and awake. OK, there wasn't very much left of the day after immigration, baggage and the ride into town, but my head certainly didn't fall into the soup on that night's out with a prospective customer and we stayed out pretty late.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 37):
For example, a midnight departure out of England or Italy to come to Miami with the South America arrivals at around 4:30am???

Ethiopian was allegedly going to open its FCO-IAD sector for sale and it leaves around 0430 arriving in IAD at 0810 Smile
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Viscount724
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 37):
How about the reverse deal: an overnight westbound with a very late departure? For example, a midnight departure out of England or Italy to come to Miami with the South America arrivals at around 4:30am???

I believe the only westbound overnight flight from Europe to North America is one of IB's two daily MAD-MEX nonstops that departs MAD at 0150 and arrives MEX at 0635.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 38):
For rebooking reasons not due to my part, I ended up on AF 9 leaving JFK for CDG at around 2300.

Very late depatures from the US east coast to Europe are great......drive to the airport late, after the traffic, a rather calm airport experience, few delays to take off, a quick snack and off to sleep as its a natural bed time, arrive in Europe midday..hotel rooms are ready or it a nice time to get home. Wonderful...I was a regular on the Sabena 2330 flight from JFK to BRU when it operated and found it the most human of ways to travel accorss the Atlantic, I still miss that flight....my biggest problem with the 1800-1900 departures is sleeping, dinner is complete at 2030, who goes to sleep at that time?
 
Indio66
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
Let me tell you what sucks more
AF23, the 5 pm departure, sucks more than than AF5, the 7:50am departure. Here is why:

Get through hellish traffic to arrive at JFK at 3:30 pm.

Board on time to find out the airplane is number 26 for departure, spending 50 minutes in line to take off.

Sit among a bunch of happy tourists drinking wine and chatting noisily for the next four hours like they have never heard of jet lag or time zones.

Doze off for 15 minutes at around 10 pm NY time to be awaken by the FA for breakfast.

Arrive in Paris like the previous night did not exist.

I think the morning departure is a good choice for NY-Paris travel and it will do better than AF expects. Frankfurt is absolutely NOT Paris, so Lufthansa is unlikely to try to imitate Air France

Yes, yes, yes, yes . . . . This guy knows his stuff.

Plus, a business person can work on the plane, and can always crash at the Sheraton CDG and take an early flight to a number of destinations in Europe, ariving reasonably fresh.

Is it for everyone? No.

Can it work - yes, i think that it possibly can.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: AF To Start Am Service On JFK-CDG

Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
I believe the only westbound overnight flight from Europe to North America is one of IB's two daily MAD-MEX nonstops that departs MAD at 0150 and arrives MEX at 0635.

It's tough to do from Europe to N. America since you're simply just not flying far enough to "outpace" the timezones. Even across the Pacific it seems as though late night westbounds have fallen out of favor. I don't think any American carriers even operate any to East Asia (not South Pacific/India) anymore.
E pur si muove -Galileo

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