adh214
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:07 am

AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:22 am

This evening a friend's flight from MCO to DFW was canceled due to weather in Dallas. He called his travel agent and purchased another ticket on Delta tomorrow. Apparently, American is sold out tomorrow between MCO and DFW.

Is he entitled to a refund from American since he won't be using the ticket and American cancelled the flight?

It would seem only fair that American refund the money. He purchased a ticket to fly at a particular time from MCO to DFW. American cannot fulfil obligation (because of weather) so they should refund his money. Of course American's obligation would end with the refund. They would not have to rebook him or otherwise accomodate him.

If it matters, he was checked in for the flight at the time it was canceled.

Your opinions please.

Andrew
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:29 am

Weather cancellations are an act of God. No refunds. Your friend can try, but I don't think there's any chance.

As for my opinion, well...I think there's a problem with the whole system. Personally, I think cancellations and the inability to get people moving again is horrendous. The storms in Denver, Chicago, Philadelphia, and New York City show that airlines have no contingency plans anymore when things go horribly wrong. Then days later telling people, "we still can't get you out of here" is very sad.
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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Adh214 (Thread starter):
Is he entitled to a refund from American since he won't be using the ticket and American cancelled the flight?

Not generally. Depends on the fare basis.

Quoting Adh214 (Thread starter):
It would seem only fair that American refund the money.

Does AA suddenly control the weather?

AA owes him squat, read the contrct of carriage.


You and your friend don't fly much do you?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
AA owes him squat, read the contrct of carriage.

Sorry, ANC, bit in this case you are incorrect, from AA's contract of carriage:

FORCE MAJEURE EVENTS

AA may, in the event of a force majeure event, without notice, cancel, terminate, divert, postpone or delay any flight or the right of carriage or reservation of traffic accommodations without liability except to issue an involuntary refund. The involuntary refund will be made in the original form of payment in accordance with involuntary refund rules for any unused portion of the ticket.

Then later

Involuntary Refunds
In the event the refund is required because of American's failure to operate on schedule or refusal to transport, the following refund will be made directly to you -

1. If the ticket is totally unused, the full amount paid (with no service charge or refund penalty), or
2. If the ticket is partially used, the applicable fare for the unused segment(s).
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
TPAnx
Posts: 1007
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:53 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:50 am

Is AA willing to transfer his ticket to another carrier?? It's one of the reasons some people fly "legacies" rather than low cost carriers....
As to the "snow days" of tnis past winter, I can relate to the stranded people.(Rule two: When you see the first
snowflake in DC,LEAVE!!) But I really can't see what the airlines are expected to do. As they resume normal operations, they have to honor the tickets of booked passengers --and squeeze in the "holdovers" as best they can. JetBlue, IIRC, chartered some aircraft to get the "holdovers" out. But that's obviously a limited option, as are extra sections on busy routes. My own guidelines...know what the weather's going to be..know what the options are for getting where you want to be, even if it involves backhauling or a very strange routing...keep the FF phone number handy..if you HAVE to be there and it looks "ifffy" , go a day early, if it looks horrible, cancel, and above all,try to be patient, and keep a sense of humor...
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 3):
Sorry, ANC, bit in this case you are incorrect, from AA's contract of carriage:

Cool, I sit corrected.

Learn something new every day.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Does AA suddenly control the weather?

AA owes him squat, read the contrct of carriage.



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 3):
AA may, in the event of a force majeure event, without notice, cancel, terminate, divert, postpone or delay any flight or the right of carriage or reservation of traffic accommodations without liability except to issue an involuntary refund. The involuntary refund will be made in the original form of payment in accordance with involuntary refund rules for any unused portion of the ticket.

Futile Trip.. I just got my refund from the NYC snow storm... the canceled my flight home and could only offer an option that would give me just enough time to connect back to my NYC flight..... it took a little pushing, and some Sup autherizations but it came through..
Why do I fly???
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
Personally, I think cancellations and the inability to get people moving again is horrendous.

What is an airline to do when all the flights are full in the first place.. case in point- last night and today. Last night, ORD had massive ATC delays (+4 hours for AA); various flights cancelled, but today was a very busy day along with the other airlines; plus they can, even though they aren't suppose to, refuse other airline passengers if they are full (Northwest is the worse and turn away people all the time!!). Where else to reaccommodate? Many evening DFW flights were cancelled today due to the severe storms that passed through early afternoon; we had no space to move people around because the flights were full/oversold to being with. You can't just pull at 777 from the ORD-DEL route, or a 762 from a JFK-LAX route, to provide extra lift for some other segment.

Regardless, it's always about an airline and their "inability" to do anything right, even when the flight is on-time.
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Cool, I sit corrected.

Learn something new every day.

Obviously don't fly much, do you?
I need to get laid
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 8):
Obviously don't fly much, do you?

Not on AA he doesn't.

He's stuck with, well... let's just say... and inferior product.

How's US working out for you Pep? Get you stuck in random cities for a couple days lately?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
adh214
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:07 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Does AA suddenly control the weather?

AA owes him squat, read the contrct of carriage.


You and your friend don't fly much do you?

Wow that is a bit rude for a forum moderator.


All the same, I am not upset with AA. If it is not safe to fly, then don't fly.

Frankly, I don't see how the weather has any impact on this. If you purchase a product, (in this case air travel between MCO and DFW at a certain time on a certain day) the seller should refund the money if they can't deliver it. I can't think of any other products were you would not be entitled to a refund if the product cannot be delivered. Now I am sure someone will say,"Oh but they can deliver it tomorrow." That is not what was purchased. It is gracious for them to offer it but the customer should have the choice of a refund.

It appears from the Contract of Carriage that a refund is fact an option. I will forward this to my friend so he can get some money back.

Thank you,

Andrew
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:53 am

AA did this to me. Due to weather the flight arrived late into ORD so the connection to MIA was late leaving and then i missed my connection down to GCM (on KX). They would reserve me on the morning flight our but this wasnt a new ticket so i nearly ended up in paying a penelty for changing flights and they wouldnt give me a hotel room for the night.
Its great when ur an elite member of there AAdvantage program but still they will treat you like Sh*t.
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 11):
They would reserve me on the morning flight our but this wasnt a new ticket so i nearly ended up in paying a penelty for changing flights and they wouldnt give me a hotel room for the night

AA shouldn't have charged you a change fee on AA's segments due to the off-schedule-operation, however, if you have a connection on another carrier, whether on a combined ticket (on another airline's stock) or a separate ticket, you have to talk to the connecting carrier in waiving a fee due to your hardships in getting to their flight. If the ticket was on AA/001 stock, an agent is more flexible on reroute/reaccommodation options.

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 11):
they wouldnt give me a hotel room for the night.
Its great when ur an elite member of there AAdvantage program but still they will treat you like Sh*t.

Per most airline policies, whether you are elite or not, but at AA, vouchers "should" not be issued when a delay or cancellation is caused by something outside of AA's control.

I'm sorry you feel like your treated as you say you are due to the above circumstances. Most PL and EP members I work with already know about the in-and-out's of off-scheduled-operations policies and usually know they can't get a hotel voucher in such situations. You can always ask the agent for a distressed-rate voucher (discounted).
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 8):
Obviously don't fly much, do you?

Only a couple million miles, no big deal. . . .

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 10):
Frankly, I don't see how the weather has any impact on this.

The weather is the reason the flight cancelled, right? Would the flight have flown if the weather had not been a factor? Seems to me the weather is the major contributing factor.

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 10):
Wow that is a bit rude for a forum moderator.

 sarcastic 

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
Not on AA he doesn't.

US's rules are more ambiguous. They don't reference natural disaster, etc

UA's rules are similar to AA's. Although I believe you need to be a lawyer to read UAs 40 page Contract of Carriage.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
BAxMAN
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:51 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):

You sound like a naive and very easily pleased consumer.

If Justin Timberlake plays Anchorage, but the outdoor concert is cancelled because of snow, you would let Justin keep your money and not expect a refund on your tickets?

I bet check-in agents see you only a couple million miles off when they need to send someone down the creek but keep the paddle for themselves.
I need to get laid
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:15 pm

See my thread from last week
What Are My Rights? [re: ORD Shutdown] (by Swiftski Mar 24 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting Adh214 (Thread starter):
Is he entitled to a refund from American since he won't be using the ticket and American cancelled the flight?

AA's policy is to refund a wholly unused ticket if the passenger's originating flight cancels for ANY reason.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
Weather cancellations are an act of God. No refunds.

Wrong.

If you get to a connecting point (like ORD or DFW with AA) and are faced with a cancelled connecting flight, you may choose to return to your point of origin (assuming there is an available flight) but you are charged for the flights to/from the connecting point. frequently there is no value left in the connecting flight coupons (electronic or paper).
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 14):
You sound like a naive and very easily pleased consumer.

Quite the contrary my good sir.

I'm not naive, and damn sure not easily pleased.

I just don't get my panties in a wad over an act of nature that I cannot control and could not foresee.

That said, I did review the Contract of Carriage for the airlines I generally use. I believe Adh214 will have to work at getting a refund. I'm sure his friend is due the $$$, having read the contract, but AA will pull the same garbage on him as every carrier pulls on everyone else - "Well we rescheduled you for flight 9999, and you opted to go elsewhere. It's not our fault you didn't give us a chance to . . . . " ad naseum. You know how it works, or at least you should since you're a slightly less than menial BA staff.

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 14):
If Justin Timberlake plays Anchorage, but the outdoor concert is cancelled because of snow, you would let Justin keep your money and not expect a refund on your tickets?

Ha Ha Ha

Apples and Oranges.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:02 am

Adh,

Your friend is entitled to a refund, however, he should settle it immediately. In the case of a cancellation, AA will automatically rebook you on the next flight out, subject to availability, if they cancel a flight. If that flight doesn't work, you can call them and they will book you on a competitor flight, again subject to availability. If either of those options don't work with your travel plans, they will provide a full refund, even with non-refundable tickets.

The key, as with most things, is don't delay in contacting the airline.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:30 am

AAdvantage is half decent. I flew MIA-GIG, the 767 was CANX for MTX, jumped a AA 767 to GRU, ended up in GIG 4 hours late, on the return GIG-MIA, another 767 CANX for MTX. They tried like hell to get a part sent to GIG from GRU on a GOL flight, the crew went illegal and highly pissed walked out of the flight deck (the part wasn't on the GOL flight anyway).

Everyone on the flight got a hotel voucher, my room for taht night was already paid on Copacabana so I went back to the beach. Everyone one the fCANX flight said they were treated really well and their hotel was great.

Anyway, I wrote a complaint to AA on their website and gave me 20,000 miles as a courtesy, the original r/t ticket was 40,000 miles plus USD160. So I am not sure if being Plat has anything to do with it, but AA has always treated me well. They've bought me three nights in MIA so far this year.

ANCFlyer, I never had to fight with AA over anything about money, they have always been generous and courteous.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
adh214
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:07 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 18):
The key, as with most things, is don't delay in contacting the airline.

Thanks for the tip. A further update on this issue:

American reservations phone lines have been tied up continuously since this started. This is not surprising as Dallas has had some bad weather over the last few days. (again no anger just is what it is, they can't control the weather). The gate agent at MCO offered rebook on a flight Saturday evening. The only problem is that the friend needs to be back in Dallas on Saturday afternoon for a family event. Further, he does not want to wait around Orlando for two days.

The gate agent said a refund was not possible which is probably just AA's way of not giving up the revenue. I will tell him to pursue it with American when he gets home. In all likelyhood, his company's travel agent will work it out.

Now for my opinion on this issue, the gate agent should be able to just process the refund when they were asked for it instead of telling him no. The contract of carriage makes it clear that he is entitled to a refund. It is possible that it is AA's policy to say no to all refund requests at the airport and then only pay out on the ones that get escalated.

Andrew
 
lincoln
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:22 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 20):
The gate agent said a refund was not possible which is probably just AA's way of not giving up the revenue.

Luckliy this has never happened to me, but if it had I would have asked the agent to grab a copy of the contract of carriage (airlines are required, by law, to have copies available for inspection wherever their tickets are offered for sale -- including airports) and we (or a supervisor and I) would sit down and read it together to make sure we both understood the airline's end of their contractual obligation to the passenger.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
dallasnewark
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:33 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Does AA suddenly control the weather?

AA owes him squat, read the contrct of carriage.


You and your friend don't fly much do you?

That's a pretty harsh statement. Working for financial institution I can tell you that he would have a very good chance with the Chargeback Department to get a refund.

Bad weather is an act of God, but if they can't get him out the next day when the weather is fine, they violate their contractual obligations, therefore making him eligible for a refund.
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ViveLeYHZ
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:10 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:48 pm

Frankly, I don't think an airline should issue a refund due to weather (unless the ticket itself is refundable), but rather offer travel at a later time or issue the passenger flight credit. It is out right unfair for AA, or any other airline for that matter, to assume the full financial ramifications of "an act of God" event, such as bad weather. The passengers must understand that they're taking a chance with weather just as much as the airline.

I had my fair share of weather delays and cancelations with AC, but everytime that happens, I use my credit card insurance for a hotel or stay with friends til the weather clears. (in fact, I find bad weather makes the trip more memorable).

I have only flown AA once last Christmas to MCO, the flight down was uneventful, but the flight back was anything but. My brother and I showed up at the check-in counter 30 minutes before departure time (bad idea in MCO on January 2nd), only to be told that we cannot board (we had luggage). I honestly expected AA to make me pay through the nose for showing up late, instead the ticketing agent was apologetic, and she issued me and my brother a new set of tickets for the following day without charge. It proves that everything is possible when you talk nicely to airline agents, with a handful of thank-yous, and some sorrys here and there.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we (unfortunately) live in a culture of blame, the minute something goes wrong we start pointing our fingers. We can't point the finger at the weather (it does not care if we did), so we pick on the airlines.

my two cents ...

ViveLeYHZ
 
EDICHC
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting ViveLeYHZ (Reply 23):
I guess what I am trying to say is that we (unfortunately) live in a culture of blame, the minute something goes wrong we start pointing our fingers. We can't point the finger at the weather (it does not care if we did), so we pick on the airlines.

As customers we do have the right to complain. I get fed up with this bulls**t Act of God nonsense that airlines hide behind. If pax hold a confirmed reservation to get from A to B on such a date and the carrier fails to operate the flight, the contract has been broken by the carrier and a refund should be given regardless of cause. Adverse weather happens, it is not some mysterious Act of God, it is a natural phenomenon and a case of when, not if it will happen. The airline industry must be the only one in which it expects the consumer to carry the risk for a factor which repeatedly does happen.
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HPAEAA
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 24):
The airline industry must be the only one in which it expects the consumer to carry the risk for a factor which repeatedly does happen.

very true, and in some cases cause, look at ORD or NYC, both happen to be over scheduled which in turn causes ATC delays to be more frequent... perhaps if the carriers scheduled less then there would be less cancelations.. I know, no one carrier can just drop service, another carrier would pick it up, but perhaps slot control needs to be tighened.... does anyone happen to know the method for calculating the amount of additional slots?
Why do I fly???
 
Go3Team
Posts: 3156
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:19 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:03 pm

Damn, I was in Dallas, Thursday afternoon to Friday AM, and the weather wasn't that bad. It may have got a little heavy around midnight, but that was after the OP was made. I'd hate to see what happens when it really gets bad.
Yay Pudding!
 
sccutler
Posts: 5568
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:29 pm

Mercy me, i am no great AA defender, but when the bad WX stranded us in SFO last December, and AA could not accommodate us for two days, they rebooked us on UA (after I fond the flight). It was tough to get through to reservations, but once through, done-deal.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
iad51fl
Posts: 161
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:21 pm

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 7):
but today was a very busy day along with the other airlines; plus they can, even though they aren't suppose to, refuse other airline passengers if they are full

LOL... um they are full  Smile Why shouldn't they refuse the passenger? If they accept the passenger, then the flight is oversold it becomes their problem.

Chris
Enjoying the view of KIAH approach end of 27. 29.980548, -95.271201
 
SiouxATC
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:17 am

RE: AA Weather Cancellation Refunds

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:06 am

ANC knows everything right? 19,000 and some odd posts....... Give me a break.

But in this situation I think that it will be a real big headache to try to get something back from AA, IMO they dont owe anything. Same thing happened to me flying out of DFW and my flights got cancel due to weather. They ended up putting me on YX on the last flight of the day to get me to my final destination, I was just happy to be out of the airport, let alone asking for a refund on my unused AA ticket.

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