jholiiday
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RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:03 am

I did some backreading, and I don't understand why BA is the only airline that ordered the 767 with RB211 engines. I know the -524H is interchangable onto the 744 engines, and it would seem that airlines (like CO. with large 757 fleets would benefit from some part sharing, despite their fondness for GE.

[Edited 2007-03-31 00:13:42]
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Captain.MD-11
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:50 am

I may be wrong, but I believe that China Yunnan had 767's with RB211's.
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aa61hvy
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Captain.MD-11 (Reply 1):
I may be wrong, but I believe that China Yunnan had 767's with RB211's.

You're right, I don't know the name of the airline, but the colors are white, maybe a little lime green stripe too?
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1337Delta764
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:58 am

If RR engines were offered earlier on, we could have seen more customers. AA, a major RR customer, ordered the 767 before RR engines were offered. AA however ordered RR engines on their 757s, if the 767 was offered with RR engines from the beginning, then AA would have likely chosen RR for the 767 as well.
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:15 am


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albird87
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:24 am

I thought AA changed some of there 767s to RRs after the purchase of TWA??
 
OceansWorld
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Jholiiday (Thread starter):
I did some backreading, and I don't understand why BA is the only airline that ordered the 767 with RB211 engines. I know the -524H is interchangable onto the 744 engines,

In March 1987 Rolls-Royce and Boeing agreed to consider the 60,600lb-thrust RB.524-D4D engines for the 767. As a resultBA placed an order worth $500 million in August 1987 for 11 B767-300s with options on 15 more. [...] Similar engines also powered the airline's 747-400s.

Source

Quoting Captain.MD-11 (Reply 1):
I may be wrong, but I believe that China Yunnan had 767's with RB211's.

Yes, they had three which are now with MU.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 5):
I thought AA changed some of there 767s to RRs after the purchase of TWA??

No, AA operates a mix of GE- and P&W-powered 767s. In fact, no airline in the United States operates 767s with RR engines.
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AA737-823
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 3):
then AA would have likely chosen RR for the 767 as well.

No, they wouldn't.

AA had a HUGE fleet of GE CF-6 eniges. Their DC-10s all had them. Granted, different variant, but still. There's a lot more in common between a CF-6-50 and a CF-6-80 than there is with an RB-211.
Later, they ended up with a ginormous fleet of CF-6 engines, powering all of their widebody aircraft (MD-11, DC-10-10 and -30, 767, and AB6).

It was a huge surprise when they went for Trents on their 777 fleet. I don't think GE saw that coming a mile away.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
AA had a HUGE fleet of GE CF-6 eniges. Their DC-10s all had them. Granted, different variant, but still. There's a lot more in common between a CF-6-50 and a CF-6-80 than there is with an RB-211.
Later, they ended up with a ginormous fleet of CF-6 engines, powering all of their widebody aircraft (MD-11, DC-10-10 and -30, 767, and AB6).

AA operates 757s with RR engines, however. The RB211-535 (used on the 757) shares something in common with the RB-524 (the RR engine for the 767). RR engines were never offered on the DC-10, MD-11, or A300. As with the 767, if Airbus and McDonnell Douglas offered RR engines on the A300 and MD-11 at the start of their programs, I am totally sure AA would have chosen RR. When AA orders the 787, I am totally positive that AA will chose the Trent 1000.
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BOE773
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
I am totally positive that AA will chose the Trent 1000.

Remember, the same words were written with regards to QF;
and we all know what type they went for, the GEnx for their 787s.
 
ZuluTime
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:34 am

The engines fitted to the BA 767s are RB211-524D4D as opposed to the 757s which have RB211-535E4 or 535C engines depending on which variant (early ones had -535C and later ones had -535E4). It is the same engine core, just operates at higher thrust and temperatures on the 767.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 10):
Remember, the same words were written with regards to QF;
and we all know what type they went for, the GEnx for their 787s.

The QF order was more contested. They operate a mix of RR and GE 747s and 767s. I woudn't say that QF is as loyal as an RR customer as AA or BA are. BA ordered GE engines on their first few 777s, but RR had a rather slow start on the 777, RR's first major 777 engine selection was for SQ. BA, however, on their next batch of 777s, went back to RR. Like AA, I would expect BA to choose the Trent 1000 on the 787.
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ba319-131
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
AA operates a mix of GE- and P&W-powered 767s

- Not anymore, the P&W machines were x TWA, they have all left the fleet.
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BOE773
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
I would expect BA to choose the Trent 1000 on the 787.

Time will tell, but I'd say that GEnx will be the winner with AA.
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ReidYYZ
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
BA ordered GE engines on their first few 777s, but RR had a rather slow start on the 777,

I thought that RR were not yet avail for T7 when BA got them, so the GE models were always to be short term lease. Secondly, Delta764: when refering to 'slow start' is it in sales or manufacturing that you are speaking of?
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 15):
Secondly, Delta764: when refering to 'slow start' is it in sales or manufacturing that you are speaking of?

Kinda both. The Trent's sales skyrocketed after SQ's order, and is now the leading engine on the 777. However, GE is now catching up, as the GE90 is the exclusive engine for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

BTW, Delta has expressed interest in the 787, and I think they will choose GE. In addition to their financing from GE, they are getting some 777-200LRs. Most airlines (except the most loyal RR customers such as AA and BA) who order the 777-200LR ,777-300ER, and 747-8 will probably choose the GEnx for the 787, even if their previous 777s and 747s use RR or P&W engines. I would say that GE also has the edge for United if they order the 787. As for US Airways, it depends if they choose the 787 or the A350. If US Airways continues with the A350 as planned, then they will choose RR by default, as GE has not yet officially confirmed an engine offering for the A350XWB.
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PM
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
The Trent's sales skyrocketed after SQ's order, and is now the leading engine on the 777.

It was the leading engine for several years but it isn't any more either in terms of orders or deliveries.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
However, GE is now catching up

"catching up"?! GE have long ago passed RR in terms of sales and GE deliveries exceeded RR some time last year.
 
fruitbat
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
Like AA, I would expect BA to choose the Trent 1000 on the 787.

Expectations are one thing, clear-headed business evaluations another. AA, BA et al will choose whatever offering they think suits them best, financially and operationally. Contrary to popular belief "Brand loyalty" doesn't exist in Airline boardrooms any more - the market is now too competitive to allow any sort of sentiment. It's up to RR and GE to offer the best product that they can with the best operating economics over the life of the engine to maximise returns for the airline.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
BTW, Delta has expressed interest in the 787, and I think they will choose GE. In addition to their financing from GE, they are getting some 777-200LRs.

At this time, with current industry economics, I believe that GE financing will continue to influence a lot of engine selection (and therefore airfame) decisions - particularly for those airlines currently sheltering under bankruptcy protection who will be looking for long term relatively cheap borrowing / funding to convince other creditors and shareholders that they aren't going to repeat the mistakes of the past.
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LASoctoberB6
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
No, AA operates a mix of GE- and P&W-powered 767s. In fact, no airline in the United States operates 767s with RR engines.

thats probably why i never knew a B767 had RR engines til about a month ago.....
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LTU330
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:57 pm

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 11):
The engines fitted to the BA 767s are RB211-524D4D as opposed to the 757s which have RB211-535E4 or 535C engines depending on which variant (early ones had -535C and later ones had -535E4). It is the same engine core, just operates at higher thrust and temperatures on the 767.

This is actually incorrect. The engines are -524H on the 767. The 524D4D was installed on the 747-236 with B.A. All the 757s with -535C engines have now left B.A and fly mainly with DHL Europe. Also, the core is not actually the same. It has a similar design (3 shaft), but is bigger. Maybe you are getting mixed up with the 524G and 524H, the 524H having a higher thrust rating that is governed by the programming plug on the FAFC, and software within the aircraft.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
RR engines were never offered on the DC-10, MD-11



actually they were 'sort of' offered , ie McD did some studies on a "DC-10-50" for BA with RB211s and they were definitely offered , though never actually flown , on the MD-11 . IIRC Air Europe had 3 RR powered MD-11w on order before they bellied up
 
EI321
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:46 pm

Those RR engines look great on 767s!
 
trex8
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 17):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):The Trent's sales skyrocketed after SQ's order, and is now the leading engine on the 777.
It was the leading engine for several years but it isn't any more either in terms of orders or deliveries.

there was a thread here which claimed that where the airlines have a choice (ie any model except the 773ER/772LR), RR is still ahead

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 14):
Time will tell, but I'd say that GEnx will be the winner with AA.
Buy American and jobs.

21% of the GEnx is from European companies and 15% Japanese. RR has talked about possible Trent 1000 manufacturing and assembly at its RR N America Indianapolis plants. Right now all Trents are still assembled in Derby.
 
WAH64D
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 11):
The engines fitted to the BA 767s are RB211-524D4D as opposed to the 757s which have RB211-535E4 or 535C engines depending on which variant (early ones had -535C and later ones had -535E4). It is the same engine core, just operates at higher thrust and temperatures on the 767.

Not correct, see below.

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 20):
This is actually incorrect. The engines are -524H on the 767. The 524D4D was installed on the 747-236 with B.A. All the 757s with -535C engines have now left B.A and fly mainly with DHL Europe. Also, the core is not actually the same. It has a similar design (3 shaft), but is bigger. Maybe you are getting mixed up with the 524G and 524H, the 524H having a higher thrust rating that is governed by the programming plug on the FAFC, and software within the aircraft.

The BA 767s were delivered with RB211-524Gs. These were swapped out for the RB211-524Hs that were delivered on the later B744s. This was done because the B763s engines operate at higher EPR ratings during cruise.

Many believe that the B767-336ERs were put through BAs "dusking" cabin upgrade programme because the RR powered B767s are a bit of an oddity and don't get good prices on the used market, especially in the 8 exits and no over-wings config that BAs are.

The RB211 and subsequently the Trent has served BA very well. They're more complicated from an mx standpoint than similar offerings from GE but I'd be amazed if BA were to go with anything other than RR on a prospective A380/B787 order.

[Edited 2007-03-31 15:11:57]
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baroque
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 18):
I believe that GE financing will continue to influence a lot of engine selection

GE financing could have been a major factor in the QF choice of GE for the 787s, possibly related to the now stalled buyout - QF management assumed the buyout was a shoe-in at the time of that decision. I am not sure they do now!
Neither Pratt nor RR seems to have the financial muscle of GE, or perhaps with Pratt cares to use it??
 
cardiffairtaxi
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:22 pm

I had the pleasure of flying back on one of these BA RR powered 767's,from TLV-LHR last week.
Great to look out the window and see that RR badge.
 
Lumberton
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
GE financing could have been a major factor in the QF choice of GE for the 787s, possibly related to the now stalled buyout - QF management assumed the buyout was a shoe-in at the time of that decision. I am not sure they do now!

(Apologies for going OT): then they are taking a lot of risk! Look at this (lengthly) article. What caught my eye was this:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...07/03/30/1174761748942.html?page=4

Quote:
Qantas is the second-largest worldwide customer for both Boeing and Airbus's new generation jets. It has 20 of Airbus's superjumbos - the A380 - on order and firm orders for 45 of Boeing's B787s. But there is potential for it to become Boeing's largest customer for the B787s because it has an option to buy another 70.
There is massive demand for aircraft worldwide. And there is at least a five-year wait for aircraft to be delivered. Qantas could sell off the purchase or option rights to its extra 70 B787s for a tidy sum. One aviation industry source notes APA's commitment to add "more than 70 new planes by 2014" does not add up to the number of jets for which Qantas has purchase rights and orders.
"Only half of these have been mentioned by APA," he says.
In a nutshell, Qantas's new owners could exploit rival airlines desperate to grow their fleets, of which there are numerous in the fast growing markets of Asia and the Middle East.

AFAIK, this, too, is mere speculation. But why on earth would GE finance a deal to put the "barbarians" and "evil foreigners" in a position to sell delivery positions and open those sales to competition?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
baroque
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 27):

AFAIK, this, too, is mere speculation. But why on earth would GE finance a deal to put the "barbarians" and "evil foreigners" in a position to sell delivery positions and open those sales to competition?

Yep, I just referred to that article on a different thread. It does consider the issue of selling the delivery positions, but it also seems to conclude that the buyout will just not happen.

If GE were in the background for the buyout, any sale could still be conditional on them being GE 787s, so even if the buyout occurred, GE could still have an interest in onsold delivery positions.

On the RR 767s, I have never managed to find one on the times I have flown QF 767s, where do they hide the BA ones?
 
BOE773
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:06 am

It's amazing how many of us have our preferences!
I used to be a Pratt fanatic, now a GE fanatic, next maybe RR!!
 
fruitbat
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 29):
It's amazing how many of us have our preferences!
I used to be a Pratt fanatic, now a GE fanatic, next maybe RR!!

From what i've seen of your posts over the last few months there's as much chance of this as there is of England winning the next Football (Soccer) World Cup......or the Cricket one.......or the Rugby one...... Big grin

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 27):
AFAIK, this, too, is mere speculation. But why on earth would GE finance a deal to put the "barbarians" and "evil foreigners" in a position to sell delivery positions and open those sales to competition?

I'm not sure that GE would finance Airline takovers unless they knew it was a done deal (and this, even to the untrained eye, wasn't).

However I am sure that aircraft financing packages and engine selections are not be unrelated. After all, if GE was your company, and you could do such deals, then you would, wouldn't you?
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CF-CPI
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:40 am

I'm told that there is a weight penalty for hanging the RB211 on the 767 wing. It had to do with the RB211 engine body hanging farther forward and the attendant beefing up of the pylons and mounts to accommodate that. As a result, the 767-336 has slightly less range that other 767-300ER variants. Maybe someone has the exact numbers handy. This may have affected further sales. QF got some second-hand from BA and I can only speculate that they got a good deal, which would have compensated for any increased costs of operation.

Anyhow, the RR powered 767 really has character as far as I am concerned. I rode on one with BA and it was cool to have a 767 buzzing like the Tristar did, and rumbling so nicely as the engines started up.
 
Lumberton
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 30):
However I am sure that aircraft financing packages and engine selections are not be unrelated. After all, if GE was your company, and you could do such deals, then you would, wouldn't you?

I'm still not sure what GE would have to gain by such a scheme here. Their core business is building and selling gas turbines for aircraft. They have succeeded in doing this already in the case of QF. Is there some spectacular return to be realized by meddling in all of this? Can't TP, et al, manage on their own?

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 30):
'Im not sure that GE would finance Airline takovers unless they knew it was a done deal (and this, even to the untrained eye, wasn't).

Even then, I doubt it, but....

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
If GE were in the background for the buyout, any sale could still be conditional on them being GE 787s, so even if the buyout occurred, GE could still have an interest in onsold delivery positions.

Let me float another "conspiracy": RR is behind the buyout to torpedo it's main competitor on this deal.  Wow!
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
AirbusA6
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:04 am

Remember, at the time BA specified the RB211 for their 767s, RR was a poor third in the market, if not fourth behind SNECMA is you bear in mind their share of CF6 and CFM56 sales. They're RB211 sales on the 747 went to a few select airlines, many of which had former colonial links.

As a result, there was little demand for an RB211-524 powered 767 or MD11, QF and NZ both operating GE or PW powered 767s alongside RR powered 747s. Why choose an oddball combination, that will be harder to sell on...

Subsequently, the successful Trent derivatives on the A330 and 777 have transformed the situation, every RR choice is now a mainstream one, not a minority variant.
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ACdreamliner
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:13 am

not to be podantic, but GE is a whole lot more than Aero engines. If anything, their core business is light bulbs.

quite the company really:
- Store Cards
- Light bulbs
- Insurance
- Heavy industry equipment
- Engines
- Other money products
- Their leasing arm
- GECAS generally

and the list goes on... so really they are a business like every other. Ot to mke money and if they thought this would help then why not?
Where are you going?
 
BOE773
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:34 am

I wonder how much 'Walmartization', (expoitation of lo-cost of off-shore labor) going on at GE and screwing the workforce and society in general on the home sod?
 
474218
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting ACdreamliner (Reply 34):
not to be podantic, but GE is a whole lot more than Aero engines. If anything, their core business is light bulbs.

GE even owns NBC (National Broadcasting Corporation) the television broadcaster.
 
trex8
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 35):
I wonder how much 'Walmartization', (expoitation of lo-cost of off-shore labor) going on at GE and screwing the workforce and society in general on the home sod?

what are you on about? if they were getting the Chinese and S Koreans etc to do the work, you may be on to something. Getting Europeans and Japanese to be revenue sharing partners does not lower their labor costs much. it just gets soemone with the technical know how to fund up to a third of their engines development, or in the case of the CFM56, Snecma forked out most of the development money! I guess RR sending work to Indiana would be considered by the British trade unions sending work to a low cost labor market too! (and they would be probably right on that!)
 
flydreamliner
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting ACdreamliner (Reply 34):
not to be podantic, but GE is a whole lot more than Aero engines. If anything, their core business is light bulbs.

quite the company really:
- Store Cards
- Light bulbs
- Insurance
- Heavy industry equipment
- Engines
- Other money products
- Their leasing arm
- GECAS generally

and the list goes on... so really they are a business like every other. Ot to mke money and if they thought this would help then why not?

GE's core business is most certainly not light bulbs.

They own a huge media empire (NBC Universal, etc.), are one of the largest lending/banking/insurance outfits in the corporate sector, have an aircraft/marine power division, consumer products division (lightbulbs, tvs, cordless phones, computer mice, etc.), electrical goods, wind turbines, powerplant equipment, desalinization gear, medical imaging equipment (MRI, CatScan, etc), a large plastics division, they are the largest manufacturer of railway locomotives, and are one of the largest manufacturers of home appliances. They employ hundreds of thousands, and are one of the largest consistent financial interests in the world.

GE is the largest, most powerful company to have its hand at all in the aerospace industry (even if that isn't the bulk of what they do)

They are spending big to increase the size and profitability of their aero engines, and I'd be surprised if anything stopped them.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
albird87
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
However, GE is now catching up, as the GE90 is the exclusive engine for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

This may be a weird thing to ask but now that the 77W and 77L have got good sales, is there anyway that RR could actually make a Trent varient for 115,000lbs?? I mean if they could do that then there might be sales for BA for these aircraft (or AA).

I guess that RR cant do this and if they did then there might be a problem with GE and Boeing and a law suit. Also the same then for the 748, which again if they could make an engine then BA i think would definately be a buyer.

Its a shame tho that we cant get some good old RRs onto these new aircraft i mean what ever happened to equality!!
 
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PM
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RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 23):
there was a thread here which claimed that where the airlines have a choice (ie any model except the 773ER/772LR), RR is still ahead

It was probably me who wrote it! It may even be true...  Wink

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 29):
now a GE fanatic

You hide it well.  Smile
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:35 am

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 31):
As a result, the 767-336 has slightly less range that other 767-300ER variants. Maybe someone has the exact numbers handy.

 checkmark  . According to the boeing website, RR powered B767s do have less range and burn more fuel. the exact figures can be found at

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/startup/pdf/767_perf.pdf

Hope this helps!  Smile
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
albird87
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:15 am

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:57 am

Out of interest why do BA operate the 4 door 767s?? is this to increase capacity?? must be more weight but im suprised that they are one of the few operators of the 3 Cat III and a Cat II on the 767 (thats only one side)
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Fruitbat (Reply 30):
I'm not sure that GE would finance Airline takeovers unless they knew it was a done deal (and this, even to the untrained eye, wasn't).

Some close to the bid thought by offering whatever premium it was, that it would be a done deal, because nobody, but NOBODY could refuse a bunch of money. But it begins to appear that some looked not to money in March 2007 but to late 2008 or whenever and decide that the bid was not quite so "nice" as holding shares in Qantas. One problem they seem to have forgotten is that taking the money and running, also crystallizes your liability to cap gains tax.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):
Is there some spectacular return to be realized by meddling in all of this? Can't TP, et al, manage on their own?

TP probably could manage on their own, and it appears that the bidder did think that about 5 to 8 billion would appear from somewhere within a year or two and without their doing very much apart from paying tax deductible interest on their lending. Some heavy financial hitters were probably behind the front runners.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 32):
Let me float another "conspiracy": RR is behind the buyout to torpedo it's main competitor on this deal. Wow!

Yes, well I can quash (?torpedo) that by suggesting RR does not have the money to buy a suitable torpedo! Or are you telling me that every time I jump on one of those letters from Bob Mansfield seriously advising me that not following his advice is injurious to my financial health, tear the letter up and throw it in the fire, that RR is secretly planning to "Look after me"? Oh goodie goodie gumdrops! I can barely wait to get my sample Trent 1700 in the mail!  bouncy   crackup 
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 38):
GE's core business is most certainly not light bulbs.

Nope, you're quite right there, we forgot to mention toasters. Toasters, lightbulbs and aero-engines. Thank the lord BA have a predominantly Trent powered B772 fleet.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
coa747
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:11 pm

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:14 am

Boeing made the call to go exclusive with GE on the 777-200LR and 777-300ER and the upcoming 747-8 so Rolls Royce was effectively locked out of this market. The same goes for the new Embraer jets, 170 through 195. Rolls Royce has taken it on the chin lately when it comes to sales campaigns. The 747-400 was also another big loss. Look at the number of 747-400's both pax and freighter produced and then look at how many are rolls royce powered compared to GE, same goes for the 767.
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 45):
The 747-400 was also another big loss. Look at the number of 747-400's both pax and freighter produced and then look at how many are rolls royce powered compared to GE, same goes for the 767.

To be fair, the similar fuel burn but lower purchase price of the CF6 engine has a lot to do with this. However, they also seem to have a penchant for uncontained failures...............

The GE90 is an excellent engine, of that there is no doubt. AFAIK much of that engine is a development of the CFM-56, almost exclusively developed by SNECMA. GE are certainly a commercial force to be reckoned with, whether this is by innovation or assimilation is another matter.

[Edited 2007-04-01 21:26:32]
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4828
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 44):
Thank the lord BA have a predominantly Trent powered B772 fleet.

I'm afraid they don't. They have 16 with RR and 27 with GE. Engines haven't yet been chosen for the four new 772ERs.
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting PM (Reply 47):
I'm afraid they don't. They have 16 with RR and 27 with GE. Engines haven't yet been chosen for the four new 772ERs

Trust me to stick my foot in it, should have done some digging. Almost every time I get on a BA B777-236ER, its one of the G-YMM* reg's with Trent 895s.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
BOE773
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: RB211 Powered 767's

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:04 am

BA will be looking at the fuel consumption in their decision making for the 777-200ERs.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/startup/pdf/777_perf.pdf

According to this Boeing data, the GE90-85B wins out with regard to lowest fuel burn/seat.

GE90-94B consumes 284.8 lbs/seat/3000 mls.
Trent 895 consumes 291.7 lbs/seat/3000 mls.