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Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:36 am

Continued from here:
Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year (by Columba Mar 30 2007 in Civil Aviation)
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trent900
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:39 am

Just re-posting my reply from the other thread.....


Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 190):
The 748i outsold the A380 pax version last year.

And was that the 748i's first year for sale? How many orders did the A380 pick-up during its first year? (Not including freighters of course)

D.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:50 am

Quote:

Quoting Zvezda from previous thread:
"The patent issue is just an inconvenience in that Airbus will have to do some engineering. Airbus have an ample sufficiency of good engineers. The engineering challenge is nothing next to overcoming the not-invented-here syndrome."

Didn't Mike Bair say that certain parts of the fuselage mfg process were proprietary, like mandrals? How easy would that be to overcome?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 1):
And was that the 748i's first year for sale? How many orders did the A380 pick-up during its first year? (Not including freighters of course)

Well I suppose if you massage the numbers enough (don't count freighters, only count orders in the first year, do count this, don't count that) you can get any result you want.

What's amazing to me is that since the A380 was introduced in 2000 the 747 has outsold it, 197 to 157. Who would have ever thought?
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gbfra
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
What's amazing to me is that since the A380 was introduced in 2000 the 747 has outsold it, 197 to 157. Who would have ever thought?

If someone had been able to predict the famous wiring problem already in 2000, why not? But you would have needed a crystal ball to predict this in 2000.

On the other hand, it was not so difficult to predict that Boeing would present a modernized version of the B747.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 1):
How many orders did the A380 pick-up during its first year?

The A388 program was launched with 48 passenger and 7 freighter orders in December 2000. I don't know when the plane was formally offered for sale, but those orders were recorded starting in April 2000 so it should be close enough to being her first "year".
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Ye

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 4):
If someone had been able to predict the famous wiring problem already in 2000, why not?

I don't think the dearth of A380 sales can be blamed on the wiring delays. Demand dried up even before the delays were announced.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Didn't Mike Bair say that certain parts of the fuselage mfg process were proprietary, like mandrals? How easy would that be to overcome?

Presumably a different design of mandrel.......
They've been around for centuries.. literally......  Smile

Regards
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 3):
What's amazing to me is that since the A380 was introduced in 2000 the 747 has outsold it, 197 to 157. Who would have ever thought?

What I think is pointless about the sales numbers game is the amount of factors that are ignored. Timeframes, Availability, Commonality with Existing fleets, etc etc etc.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Ye

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 7):
Presumably a different design of mandrel.......

Easier said than done. If it were really that simple, I think Airbus would be going with a monolithic fuselage barrel on the A350X, instead of the panel approach. The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
trent900
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 6):
Demand dried up even before the delays were announced.

Yes, you have a good point here. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few years as airliners start to replace the older 744's etc.

All good fun though. It keeps us lot b**ching about things.

D.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 10):
Easier said than done. If it were really that simple, I think Airbus would be going with a monolithic fuselage barrel on the A350X, instead of the panel approach. The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

See my IM re same..........

Regards
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Didn't Mike Bair say that certain parts of the fuselage mfg process were proprietary, like mandrals? How easy would that be to overcome?

There are engineers who specialize in designing mandrels.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 10):
The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

False. Completely false. CFRP panels have the advantage of greater strength, lighter weight, no corrosion, and no fatigue relative to aluminium panels.
 
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OA260
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:12 am

Name: OA260
Date: 2007-04-01 23:06:36
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 54):
That's not very nice to A380... DC-7 was a big, fast airplane whose engines rarely worked correctly... last time I checked, it's seemingly everything else but the engines that doesn't work right on A380.

Well things certainly seem to be working fine now on the A380 !!!!

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 41):
My opinion will be that most families will prefer the A380 as it's recognised as the largest commercial aircraft at the moment. The kiddies will want to fly on the largest plane, just like they did with the 747

Funny you say that !!! I was out today for a walk and met some neighbours playing with their kids on the beach. They know my connection to the aviation/travel industry and the guy said to me ''whens this new A380 starting to fly, i thinking of taking the kids on it to Australia''. So I just told him what I knew and then he asked his 8 year old son ''do you want to go on the A380'??'' His son seemed so excited and started asking me loads of questions that I was suprised an 8 year old would ask. How far it can fly and how fast it goes. How many people it can take and do they have nintendo on board LOL.....

These are just joe public and not the first that have asked me the same kind of questions. So there is major interest in it on this side of the Atlantic.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 52):
The 787 wont suddenly 'allow' that, its already here. Despite all the hype of point to point, the vast majority of 787 flights will go though at least one hub.

The 787 will of course operate to hubs . UA will use it for ORD hub. I dont think we are going to see AUS to HKG!!!

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 43):
Only kiddies would choose a plane because it's the largest. Adults will choose, based on price schedule, quality of service, frequent flyer program, etc.

Some big kids will also choose it because its the largest but thats just the novelty factor. With regards Adults choosing based on frequent flyer programs then SQ and LH will most certainly get their regular Kris flyers and Senetors onboard. I do think that it will be exciting to see EK and what they do with their A380's.


Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 6):
I don't think the dearth of A380 sales can be blamed on the wiring delays. Demand dried up even before the delays were announced.

I just think airlines want to see how SQ get on and then decide if its for them or not .
 
Danny
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

You meant composite barrels offer no advantage over composite panels? That seems to be right.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
False. Completely false. CFRP panels have the advantage of greater strength, lighter weight, no corrosion, and no fatigue relative to aluminium panels.



Quote:
Initially, Boeing and its partners explored making each barrel of the 7E7's fuselage out of several large composite panels that would be bolted together to form a cylinder. That's the way aluminum planes are made.

"When you got right down to it, there was no advantage," Statkus said. "It was like black aluminum. If it's just a panel here and a panel here and a panel here all bolted down, it's just like metal."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/techno...techtopheds-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
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EI321
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

Ok, I'll let you away with that one considering todays date.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 14):
You meant composite barrels offer no advantage over composite panels? That seems to be right.

Wrong. According to the article:

Quote:
Bolting panels together means the edges of those panels have to be made thicker to accommodate the bolts. Not only would that add weight, but it would also require lots of seams and joints. Those connections would fatigue like aluminum and require regular rounds of expensive maintenance.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Danny
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:07 am

This is just a hypothesis not a fact. Why exactly they claim connections between barrels are supposed to be so much better better that between panels remains mystery.

Chicago Tribune is hardly an expert in composite technology. Most likely they copied that from materials received from Boeing (aren't they based in Chicago?).

Expensive maintenance will be to remove a barrel that got hit in an accident.

[Edited 2007-04-02 00:10:56]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 18):
Expensive maintenance will be to remove a barrel that got hit in an accident.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, as the case may be), any impact strong enough to write-off a CFRP fuselage barrel would write-off an AL structure (as well as a CFRP on aluminum structure).
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 9):
Easier said than done. If it were really that simple, I think Airbus would be going with a monolithic fuselage barrel on the A350X, instead of the panel approach. The panel approach offers no advantage over aluminum.

I think Boomboom is talking about complete barrels vs panels.. I think "ramp rash" is a serious one for the airlines. When deep intrusions occur now, panels are removed to repair structural damage and then (mostly) new panels are put on. I wonder what the procedure will be if trucks start driving into 787s. Incidents like this happen a lot in operation.

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=%22ramp+rash%22+composites&meta=

[Edited 2007-04-02 00:17:17]
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Danny
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Fortunately (or unfortunately, as the case may be), any impact strong enough to write-off a CFRP fuselage barrel would write-off an AL structure (as well as a CFRP on aluminum structure).

The issue is with small structural damage invisible to human eye. I can't believe you would assume that there is no damage and continue flying.
 
2wingtips
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
False. Completely false. CFRP panels have the advantage of greater strength, lighter weight, no corrosion, and no fatigue relative to aluminium panels.

Agreed. However, it's not as advanced as the Boeing approach with composite barrels. You are completely wrong suggesting Airbus is up to speed on composites. They are way behind Boeing in this field and the various posturings on the A350 are ample evidence of this. There will be some corrosion with CFRP panels as they are attached to an aluminium frame. The Airbus reasoning for going with the panels(easier to replaced damaged panels) is particularly lame IMO.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 18):
This is just a hypothesis not a fact. Why exactly they claim connections between barrels are supposed to be so much better better that between panels remains mystery.

Because there's far fewer of them.

Remember when Airbus told us Al-Li was better than composites? That composites were risky, and they wouldn't use their customers as guinea pigs? Then they changed their position. Don't be surprised if they change again and go to monolithic fuselage barrels.

Personally, I hope they stick to the composite panel approach, as that will make the A350XWB much less competitive.
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Danny
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
I wonder what the procedure will be if trucks start driving into 787s

Will they have to split aircraft into two pieces to remove one of middle barrels?
 
Danny
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 23):
Because there's far fewer of them.

If there is good technology to connect 10 pieces, it can be used to connect 20 pieces.

edited for spelling

[Edited 2007-04-02 00:24:21]
 
brendows
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
I think "ramp rash" is a serious one for the airlines. When deep intrusions occur now, panels are removed to repair structural damage and then (mostly) new panels are put on. I wonder what the procedure will be if trucks start driving into 787s. Incidents like this happen a lot in operation.

Keesje:
you have been told this before, no barrels will be replaced if a 787 is struck by a truck, and no panels will be replaced on a A350XWB if it is struck by a truck. A damaged spot will be patched up using different techniques, depending on how severe the damage is. The longest panels on the A350XWB, in the way it was (re)launched in December, are even longer than the composite barrels on the 787, what would that mean for the A350 Keesje??? No need to answer...

Quoting Danny (Reply 18):
Why exactly they claim connections between barrels are supposed to be so much better better that between panels remains mystery.

Because you'll have additional connections in a different direction if you're using the panel approach, and that will add weight, and give you more spots that are exposed to pressure and stress.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:40 am

search?hl=nl&q=%22ramp rash%22 composites&meta=>

Quoting Brendows (Reply 28):
The longest panels on the A350XWB, in the way it was (re)launched in December, are even longer than the composite barrels on the 787, what would that mean for the A350 Keesje???

That you can remove it if neccesary & put a new one on?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Ye

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 18):
Why exactly they claim connections between barrels are supposed to be so much better better that between panels remains mystery.

The connections between barrels don't suffer any hoop stresses; connections between panels do.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 22):
You are completely wrong suggesting Airbus is up to speed on composites.

I never suggested that. I suggested that Airbus are not as far behind Boeing in composites as some of the Boeing cheerleaders have suggested.

Quoting Danny (Reply 21):
The issue is with small structural damage invisible to human eye. I can't believe you would assume that there is no damage and continue flying.

An airline would do exactly that. Boeing have designed in sufficient margins that any damage not visible to the naked eye would not weaken the fuselage below safety minimums.
 
WAH64D
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 28):
An airline would do exactly that. Boeing have designed in sufficient margins that any damage not visible to the naked eye would not weaken the fuselage below safety minimums.

Sorry Zvezda, thats crazy. CFRP can be completely destroyed behind the upper skin and still look normal to visual inspection. In the case of majority CFRP hulled aircraft, there will have to be new inspections mandated in the aircraft's certification and mx docs including a full fuselage ultrasound at C and D checks. Any suspected ramp-rash incidents will need to be fully (ultrasonically) investigated before that aircraft can be flown again.
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Ye

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:41 am

Boeing has already developed techniques that can accurately detect defects in the CFRP matrix from the outer surface all the way through to the inner surface. They proved it with the ninth test barrel using the defective mandrel when sub-surface damage in the matrix was detected.

And Boeing has already developed and tested fixes for "ramp rash" as well as showing that far greater impact energies need to be inflicted upon the barrel to generate "ramp rash" in the first place compared to a conventional Al airliner skin. And it's a lot more then the "grab a hammer and take a whack at a piece of CFRP" Boeing has been doing at the sales meetings.

Frankly, it should be deemed "trolling" to keep bringing them up. However, since there are a number of other thoroughly dis-proven topics that keep being trollishly brought up again and again ("the entire EU is a socialist tax sink", for example), I guess it's just a case of "sauce for the goose..." retaliation.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:16 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 29):
Sorry Zvezda, thats crazy. CFRP can be completely destroyed behind the upper skin and still look normal to visual inspection. In the case of majority CFRP hulled aircraft, there will have to be new inspections mandated in the aircraft's certification and mx docs including a full fuselage ultrasound at C and D checks.

Well, that would be true for the A350 too as well as the A380 wings.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):

That you can remove it if neccesary & put a new one on?

Do you think everytime a catering truck hits an A350, or some other incident occurs they're going to replace a panel that's 10 meters long? How long do you suppose that will take? I imagine the plane will be out of service for quite some time.

No, Airbus will patch it, just like the 787.
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2wingtips
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 28):
Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 22):
You are completely wrong suggesting Airbus is up to speed on composites.

I never suggested that. I suggested that Airbus are not as far behind Boeing in composites as some of the Boeing cheerleaders have suggested.

Your #175 reply in the locked thread clearly implied Airbus were technologically up to speed with composites. Whatever you wish to say, I will add that they are behind Boeing considerably at the moment in this field. They will catch up of course but they were taken back with the 787 and it's barrel CFRP fuselage. I'm sure they have the technical expertise to match Boeing's technological lead. But they are behind at the moment, no doubt.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 29):
CFRP can be completely destroyed behind the upper skin and still look normal to visual inspection. In the case of majority CFRP hulled aircraft, there will have to be new inspections mandated in the aircraft's certification and mx docs including a full fuselage ultrasound at C and D checks.

One advantage of CFRP (for both the 787 and A350XWB) is that it will eventually reach a "fatigue floor" and as such will (supposedly) never fatigue any more, so the intervals between C and D checks will be stretched out longer and will eventually become superfluous as a "regular inspection" item. This is appealing greatly to many 787 customers and no doubt helped spur Airbus to adopt CFRP as a greater part of the A350XWB's frame, as well.
 
StressGuy
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:54 am

Hello All,

I have enjoyed reading this forum for some time now and have finally joined! This is my first post so please correct me if I break any rules.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 28):
An airline would do exactly that. Boeing have designed in sufficient margins that any damage not visible to the naked eye would not weaken the fuselage below safety minimums.

I believe the above quote by Zvezda is correct except for the fact that the damage will have to be invisible at some statistically determined distance "x" away from the composite structure. The structure will have low enough stresses that the delaminations will not grow and furthermore if the damage isn't visible then it is acceptable until the next c or d check.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Ye

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
One advantage of CFRP (for both the 787 and A350XWB) is that it will eventually reach a "fatigue floor" and as such will (supposedly) never fatigue any more, so the intervals between C and D checks will be stretched out longer

Will this be true for the Airbus panel approach? I thought there was a corrosion problem between aluminum and CRFP.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 35):
Will this be true for the Airbus panel approach? I thought there was a corrosion problem between aluminum and CRFP.

The panels themselves should derive the same benefits, being CFRP. As to the fasteners and ribs/stringers (if Airbus chooses to make them out of Al), I imagine will need to undergo examination, but quite possibly not as often if the stresses the panels transmit to them reach a "floor", as well. But I am not a materials engineer so I'm really wild-arse guessing on that.  Smile
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:05 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 31):
Do you think everytime a catering truck hits an A350, or some other incident occurs they're going to replace a panel that's 10 meters long? How long do you suppose that will take? I imagine the plane will be out of service for quite some time.

No, Airbus will patch it, just like the 787.

That will require huge, enormous patches..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WAH64D
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:35 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 31):
Quoting WAH64D (Reply 29):
Sorry Zvezda, thats crazy. CFRP can be completely destroyed behind the upper skin and still look normal to visual inspection. In the case of majority CFRP hulled aircraft, there will have to be new inspections mandated in the aircraft's certification and mx docs including a full fuselage ultrasound at C and D checks.

Well, that would be true for the A350 too as well as the A380 wings.

You are correct, I didn't say otherwise.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
And Boeing has already developed and tested fixes for "ramp rash" as well as showing that far greater impact energies need to be inflicted upon the barrel to generate "ramp rash" in the first place compared to a conventional Al airliner skin. And it's a lot more then the "grab a hammer and take a whack at a piece of CFRP" Boeing has been doing at the sales meetings.

CFRP is not the wonder material its often touted to be on a.net. Trust me, If you drive a set of stairs or a baggage cart into a CFRP hull/wing/panel/whatever, it will be damaged. The increased depth of inspection required thereafter is a compromise of using CFRP materials whether they be produced by A, B or anybody else.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 35):
I thought there was a corrosion problem between aluminum and CRFP.

Solved many many years ago outside of the airline industry, who are actually rather late to the party.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 38):
Trust me, If you drive a set of stairs or a baggage cart into a CFRP hull/wing/panel/whatever, it will be damaged.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Most such impacts occur at very, very low speeds.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
As to the fasteners and ribs/stringers (if Airbus chooses to make them out of Al)

The doublers, joints and stringers will be CFRP on the A350XWB.


Btw, Airbus mentioned they have a technology to keep down the problem of corrosion between AI and CFRP. Could be read at FI.

IIRC Airbus also did a partnership with a japanese company wich is specialised to build-in special damage sensors into composite.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 41):

The doublers, joints and stringers will be CFRP on the A350XWB.

During their 2006 XWB industrial launch presentation, those items were not CFRP.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 42):
During their 2006 XWB industrial launch presentation, those items were not CFRP.

I'm not sure about this i could swear they did, however why FI is claiming that?

“Faliure is not an option.”
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:45 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 43):
I'm not sure about this i could swear they did, however why FI is claiming that?

Interesting, I could be wrong then - I could have sworn that they werent CFRP according to the Airbus presentation.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 38):
CFRP is not the wonder material its often touted to be on a.net.

But neither is it the brittle material that will be dented in a soft breeze it is also often touted to be on a.net.  Wink

Quote:
Trust me, If you drive a set of stairs or a baggage cart into a CFRP hull/wing/panel/whatever, it will be damaged.

As Zvezda notes above me and I and others have noted nearly countless times before, it depends on the impact speed and location. Boeing is reinforcing the areas around doors and access panels with this kind of impacts in mind and they have scores of decades of "ramp rash" data with to draw from in figuring out where most impacts will occur and what the worst "average" will be.

Quote:
The increased depth of inspection required thereafter is a compromise of using CFRP materials whether they be produced by A, B or anybody else.

Yet portable systems can check for it then and there, so it's not like you need to tow the plane to a hangar and spend a week going over it after every bump.  Smile


In the end, I can't help but be convinced of the minimal risks by the actions of the airlines themselves. If they truly believed CFRP was going to raise maintenance costs and lower dispatch reliability, they wouldn't be ordering the 787 in droves and telling Airbus to use it, as well, instead of Al-Li.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
In the end, I can't help but be convinced of the minimal risks by the actions of the airlines themselves

 checkmark 
Actions always speak louder than words......  Smile

Regards
 
SEPilot
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 18):
This is just a hypothesis not a fact. Why exactly they claim connections between barrels are supposed to be so much better better that between panels remains mystery.

This has been covered in previous posts, but the point is two-fold: first, the length of joint is much shorter leading to far fewer fasteners, shorter lap length that has to be sealed and reinforced and lower stress on the joints because of the lack of hoop stress. The end result is a lighter structure that requires less maintenance.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
In the end, I can't help but be convinced of the minimal risks by the actions of the airlines themselves. If they truly believed CFRP was going to raise maintenance costs and lower dispatch reliability, they wouldn't be ordering the 787 in droves and telling Airbus to use it, as well, instead of Al-Li.

This really tells the story. The airline business is one of the most risk-averse businesses on earth; either Boeing has pulled off the biggest snow job in history or they really have a superior product with the 787. Boeing believes, and has convinced the airlines, that CFRP will be lighter, last longer, and require less maintenance than aluminum. Nobody has presented even a credible case that they are wrong. Time, of course, will tell, but I'm convinced that they are right.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 37):
That will require huge, enormous patches..

Why, if the area that's damaged is small?

Quoting Danny (Reply 25):
If there is good technology to connect 10 pieces, it can be used to connect 20 pieces

And the 20 piece one will weigh twice as much.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus CEO Sees 20 New Orders For A380 This Year 2

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 47):
This has been covered in previous posts, but the point is two-fold: first, the length of joint is much shorter leading to far fewer fasteners, shorter lap length that has to be sealed and reinforced and lower stress on the joints because of the lack of hoop stress. The end result is a lighter structure that requires less maintenance.

Just a couple of points of order (IMO)

I'm a big a fan of the monolithic barrel approach vs. the "panel" approach (over the panel approach).
However:-
I don't believe the extra length of joints on the panel approach leads to massively higher weight. I believe the weight difference will be pretty marginal (maintenance too, in that respect).
The difference WILL be there, even if its a small one......(see above.. Wink )


The hoop stress issue is a bit of a red-herring.
The "skin" of either of these structures is nowhere near rigid enough to self-support in its given shape.
Hence the fact that both of the structures do indeed have internal framing.
The "hoop" stress on the longitudinal joints is therefore entirely limited to the foot or so spacing between the frames (just like our submarines  Smile )
The frames will take most of that particular stress, not the skin lap joint.

All that said, I think it's an academic discussion, as I see little chance of seeing an A350XWB with "panels" at the end of the day  Smile.

Regards

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