billreid
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Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:48 am

From Telegraaf, Amsterdam Holland.

SYDNEY - Een meningsverschil tussen de piloot en co-piloot van het Garuda-toestel dat 7 maart neerstortte bij de Indonesische stad Yogyakarta, is mogelijk de oorzaak van de crash. Dat blijkt uit de recorder van de cockpit, aldus een Indonesische onderzoeker.


A disagreement between the pilot and the co-pilot from the Garuda airplane that on 7 March crashed near the Indonesian city Yogyakarta, is potentially the reason for the crash. This is evident from the cockpit voice recorded stated by and Indonesian inspector.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
billreid
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:07 am

Further.

Uit de opnames blijkt dat het toestel nog veel snelheid had en de co-piloot nog een rondje wilde maken in plaats van direct te landen. „Ik ben bang dat het ongeluk gebeurde door verstrooidheid van de bemanning”, aldus Tatang Kurniadi voor de Australische tv-zender Nine Network.

De politie ging er direct al vanuit dat menselijk falen vermoedelijk de oorzaak was van het ongeluk. Direct na het vliegtuigongeluk, waarbij 21 mensen omkwamen, zeiden overlevenden al dat het toestel met grote snelheid de landing inzette. Bijna 120 inzittenden overleefden de ramp.


From the recording it appears that the airplane still had alot of speed and the co-pilot wanted to do a go around in place of a direct landing. "I am afraid that the accident happened because of disorganization from the crew" said Tatang Kurniadi for the Australian TV network Nine-Network.

The police immediately came to the conclusion that human error was the probable reason for the crash. Shortly after the accident, where 21 people died, survivors said that the airplane approach began with high speed. Almost 120 passengers survived the disaster.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
EK156
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:54 am

Was this an ego issue from the pilot or Captian? I mean why didn't he listen to his FO? This is very sad!!!
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:06 am

It sounds to me more like an issue of a high speed approach, as opposed to a disagreement in the cockpit.

If the A/C was coming in hot and possibly high then the co-pilot's suggestion to go around would have been appropriate.

Of course I don't know if he tried to take control or something, which could have exacerbated a bad situation.

All this is speculation until the investigation is completed, I suppose.
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floridaflyboy
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 3):
All this is speculation until the investigation is completed, I suppose.

Exactly. I'll wait to see the transcripts from the CVR before making any conclusions about what happened in the cockpit.
Good goes around!
 
Norcal773
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:19 am

Well, I guess that would confirm what NAV20 was saying all along.

A shame really.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
ikramerica
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:28 am

Don't believe it. It's obviously a flaw in the 737 classic design and they should be banned... and don't tell the Indonesian government otherwise.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):

Apparently there is a rather serious flaw with that model 737, that needs to be addressed. It is regarding an electrical short in the wiring to the wingtip landing lights, which causes the engine on that wing to shut down.

I too will wait for all the data to surface before casting blame.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 8):
Apparently there is a rather serious flaw with that model 737, that needs to be addressed. It is regarding an electrical short in the wiring to the wingtip landing lights, which causes the engine on that wing to shut down.

What has that, if it has real basis, got to do with a plane that had both engines running.

Further despite claims of a dispute between the crew there is also dispute between Indonesian officials and investigators so this story still has more to play. From the Sydney Morning Herald. April 2

....."THE chief investigator of the Garuda plane crash that killed five Australians denies the allegation that the pilot and co-pilot were arguing before the crash.

Cockpit voice recordings recovered from the jet showed the co-pilot wanted the pilot to go around again instead of landing, Tatang Kurniadi of Indonesia's National Transport Safety Commission told Channel Nine's Sunday program yesterday.

But the chief investigator, Mardjono Siswosuwarno, told the Herald yesterday there was "no such … discussion between pilot and co-pilot describing their confusion about what was happening" and that conversations between the two were considered to be "normal"......

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/dis...acts/2007/04/01/1175366080773.html

Cheers
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md80fanatic
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
What has that, if it has real basis, got to do with a plane that had both engines running.

We don't know for certain if both engines were running, or were producing equal thrust (the FDR will reveal the truth). Curmudgeon posted an incident report of a 737-400 with the problem I described....which was a basis for discussion, last month, about what could be the reason for high speed and inproper flap deployment during the late phases of the approach.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:38 am

MD80,
I stand corrected but your comment presented in isolation may lead some to give credence to Ikramerica's obviously tongue in cheek comment(It was wasn't it, Ikramerica?)
The fault you mention while serious, damn I would hate for an engine shutdown at that point, is certainly not commonplace.
With hundreds, perhaps thousands of 734 flights a day and many many hundreds of thousands over the years this does not seem to have occured very often.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
avt007
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 10):
We don't know for certain if both engines were running

We don't know anything for certain ,but that's not stopping anyone from rampant speculation. Why not wait for facts before arguing pointlessly? It could have been any number of problems, including incompetence, but at this point there isn't enough hard facts available. As for the pax opinion mon approach speed, I don't beleive any of it. I've flown as a pax for decades, but I still can't tell from looking out the window how the approach is going. I'd prefer to wait for FDR data.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 10):
We don't know for certain if both engines were running, or were producing equal thrust (the FDR will reveal the truth). Curmudgeon posted an incident report of a 737-400 with the problem I described....which was a basis for discussion, last month, about what could be the reason for high speed and inproper flap deployment during the late phases of the approach.

Jeez man! I posted that in a light-hearted vein to show that there are new flaws surfacing all the time in aging airliners. In the millions of hours logged in the last 15 years, there have been exactly three airborne engine failures due to the fuel shut-off valve getting an erroneous "close" signal when the outboard landing light motor operates. This a wiring bundle issue, and the FAA currently has no sense of urgency about it. (because the risk of two engines failing is over the one:ten billion range, and operating those lights is optional)

This airliner was making power on both engines as noted on the FDR. Additionally, an engine failure, even with no flaps at all, is no reason to crash an airplane.

This is simply a case of the captain having a cognitive disconnect...fixating on the landing rather than the reality of a high energy situation. The F/O apparently suggested a go-around but did nothing to take control until it was too late. The exact timing and sequence of events will be released by the Indonesian authorities soon.
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ltbewr
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:01 am

If 'pilot disagreement' could have been a factor in this deadly crash, one has to wonder about the training and update training of the pilots and co-pilots at that airline, especially as to cockpit management and not have a pilot seen as an absolute leader.
 
jasond
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
If 'pilot disagreement' could have been a factor in this deadly crash, one has to wonder about the training and update training of the pilots and co-pilots at that airline, especially as to cockpit management and not have a pilot seen as an absolute leader.

The disagreement could be anything from a simple enquiry by one crew member to the other about the nature of the approach to an all out slanging match between the crew, we don't know yet. My interpretation was that the statement was made by an official involved with the ongoing investigation and was then summarily retracted. By this time however the media has run with the story, as for the truth, we still don't know.
 
LTAC03R
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting BillReid (Thread starter):
The police immediately came to the conclusion that human error was the probable reason for the crash.

LOL!! That's it. We'll just call it a day now. So much for the art of crash investigation.  scratchchin 
The difference between god and a pilot is that god doesn't think he is a pilot.
 
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PipoA380
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:18 pm

Quoting EK156 (Reply 2):
Was this an ego issue from the pilot or Captian? I mean why didn't he listen to his FO? This is very sad!!!

This happened a lot in some major crashes. The fact that the Captain has authority on the FO, and that very often, FOs do not dare to say something to the captain, this can lead to some very bad situations.

I'm thinking of the Tenerife crash, where the FO did not tel the captain that he wasn't sure the tower had given them clearance. And others as well, where same thing happened. I guess cockpit management still has some work to do...
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keesje
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17):
This happened a lot in some major crashes.

 checkmark 

This indeed wouldn´t be the first time authority of senior captains prevented a better judgement of the F/O avoiding an accident. If I recall right Korean had a serious problem with this in the past. Pilots were almost all ex airforce people with much self confidence & a strict cockpit hierarchy.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17):
This happened a lot in some major crashes. The fact that the Captain has authority on the FO, and that very often, FOs do not dare to say something to the captain, this can lead to some very bad situations.

A friend of mine died like this. He had told several of us that if he kept flying with the same Captain(corporate jet) that he would defnitely die. He gave two weeks notice and intended to work through the notice so he'd have a chance for a good reference and ended up flying into a mountain in NW Georgia in the clouds while trying to get the Captain to climb.
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pilotaydin
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 19):
A friend of mine died like this. He had told several of us that if he kept flying with the same Captain(corporate jet) that he would defnitely die. He gave two weeks notice and intended to work through the notice so he'd have a chance for a good reference and ended up flying into a mountain in NW Georgia in the clouds while trying to get the Captain to climb.

damn!......that's just horrible...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
airtran717
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Don't believe it. It's obviously a flaw in the 737 classic design and they should be banned...

Just what flaw might that be? Do enlighten us.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:55 pm

Many of the arguments here are based on the small piece of quote.

Here's the "facts" that I gathered from reading the news:

1. The captain was the one who's doing the landing
2. Captain asked for the flaps to be lowered
3. Flaps did not jam, rather the co pilot did not lower the flaps.

I thought that eventhough the F/O has to give inputs to the Captain, but the last decision is in the captain's hand, especially he's the one doing the landing. Why did the F/O not put down the flaps if the captain asked him to do so.

I am just trying to understand how the cockpit dynamic works. I thought the last decision has to come from the one doing the landing.

We do not know what happened in the cockpit, and what would have happened if the flaps were lowered. Though go around could have saved the airplane and it is the safest alternative, but if that's the case, there would not be any landing.

Who's fault is it, if lowering the flaps would have slowed down the airplane enough, to warrant a safe landing, and the Captain did not realize that the flaps was not properly lowered, under the stress of landing the airplanes?

I am sure part of the blame also lies on the Captain, but I have always thought that because of the Captain's position as the one who's doing the landing, the F/O should have helped him rather than contradict him and create the "arguments", and vice versa.

Cheers,
PP

[Edited 2007-04-02 16:56:49]
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 21):
Just what flaw might that be? Do enlighten us.

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure Ikramerica was taking a sarcastic jab at the Indonesian government's misguided response to the unfortunate recent series of accidents and incidents. Without even waiting to determine the cause, the government has proposed such draconian measures as banning aircraft older than 10 years.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
airtran717
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 23):

Yes, I have discovered that tone in this thread. I follow now. LOL It does typically seem to be the line of thought that it's automatically human error in these cases.... to see a government say it's automatically the plane's error? LOL

717

I have had some experience with Indian pilots... they typically insinuate that they are not wrong about whatever given subject... be it airplanes, or the score of the Red Sox game. Being wrong must be beneath them in some way. I dunno.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:34 am

[quote=FoxBravo,reply=23]I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure Ikramerica was taking a sarcastic jab [quote]
Of course he was, but it was too subtle apparently  Smile
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Morvious
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting PipoA380 (Reply 17):
I'm thinking of the Tenerife crash, where the FO did not tel the captain that he wasn't sure the tower had given them clearance.

True but he did asked the pilot "Isnt he cleared yet?" while the captain replied with an easy, "Yup" and "Oh yes"

I also think that it didn't manner if the co-pilot told the captain that they did not have the clearence yet. With or without these words he would have continued the takeoff roll..
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
LJDRVR
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:54 am

Not sure what's more sad, the police chief officially pronouncing the cause of the accident based on his "investigation", or you amateurs attempting to have a cogent discussion about matters you have no expertise in.

This crew is dead. Why not keep your mouths shut and let the investigators do their jobs? That would be a bit more respectful.
 
airtran717
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 26):
This crew is dead. Why not keep your mouths shut and let the investigators do their jobs? That would be a bit more respectful.

A little harshly worded, but I couldn't agree more. People on a.net have nothing better to do than speculate all day long on issues they either don't have any experience with or ignore the advice, stories, and recounts of other people who DO have experience in this industry. Too many armchair CEO's and self-professed "experts" here.

717
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 26):
This crew is dead.

Nope, the cockpit crew is alive and well.
 
airtran717
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 28):
Nope, the cockpit crew is alive and well.

The point is that people died in this incident. In the ultimate scheme of things, does it matter if it's crew or passengers? Of course not.

717
 
jetfuel
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting LJDRVR (Reply 26):
you amateurs attempting to have a cogent discussion about matters you have no expertise in

How you do you know who is an amateur?
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
F9Animal
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:25 am

I find this hard to believe, as I have always heard good things about Garuda and its pilots. Although it is possible, I would think there would be better CRM. Whatever the case, it was a tragedy, and one that everyone will hopefully learn from. There is certainly no doubt that I would hop on a Garuda flight anyday, as I think they are a fine airline.
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SEPilot
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 21):
Who's fault is it, if lowering the flaps would have slowed down the airplane enough, to warrant a safe landing, and the Captain did not realize that the flaps was not properly lowered, under the stress of landing the airplanes?

I have never flown a 737, but on small planes the feel of flaps going down is unmistakeable. I cannot believe an experienced captain would not know just from the feel whether or not the flaps are down, and approximately how far down. From being a passenger on 737's I certainly can feel and hear when the flaps come down, and when they are extended further.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 32):
I cannot believe an experienced captain would not know just from the feel whether or not the flaps are down, and approximately how far down.

well....fly 180 duty hours a month, 1000 flight hours a year, and 1800 duty hours a year...and you won't know where you are, or what you're doing....you won't even remember during summer, what leg you're on, what your name is, and what airport you're descending into....we see it every summer....

summer schedule has started here at TK....85% of my schedule this month is 5 legs, which means overnights and minimum rest times....TRUST me...you can forget where ya are, and what you're doing my friend....and you're still legal as far as FARs go...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
LJDRVR
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 30):
How you do you know who is an amateur?

I don't, Jetfuel. But the fact that you're making an issue about it leads me to believe you probably are. If you had any expertise you'd be busy laughing at people who make such commnets as "I've never flown a 737, but..." (No offense meant Sir; yours was an honest question, blue skies.)

This board is funnier than any sitcom.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 33):
TRUST me...you can forget where ya are, and what you're doing my friend....and you're still legal as far as FARs go...

But if you were in the middle of a very tricky approach and ordered your copilot to lower the flaps, you don't think you wouldn't realize it if he (or she) didn't? I find that hard to believe. Your point in general is well taken, however.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:41 am

Pilotaydin:

You cannot remember routine, uneventful flights. But if one particular flight ended in a rice paddy with your aircraft on fire...chances are good that you would never forget that one.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 35):
But if you were in the middle of a very tricky approach and ordered your copilot to lower the flaps, you don't think you wouldn't realize it if he (or she) didn't? I find that hard to believe. Your point in general is well taken, however

that's a good issue you're standing on...see i dont know what they talked about on the deck, but sometimes the captain asks for weird things at weird stages, ive had it happen plenty of times...like sometimes at decision height, they ask "where are we parked" haha, and well you know what, i just make up a number and blurt it out, because im not about to look at the note i just took down or turn my head to my chart to remember....sometimes their minds are somewhere else....and they have get there itis or they are just zoooooned out on another planet and my job is to bring them back into line, no questions asked...being a copilot tests your self confidence, you gotta speak up and put your foor down sometimes...

i dont know what happened on Garuda....and it's sad, because obviously appraoch and take off are the most critical stages and things happen damn fast, but if you dont complete checklists or lag during callouts...something is bound to go wrong....again, im waiting to see what is up in detail...

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 36):
You cannot remember routine, uneventful flights. But if one particular flight ended in a rice paddy with your aircraft on fire...chances are good that you would never forget that one.

yes... you are right, routine things are forgotten or confused and blurred in, but those are the ones that end up causing things that you don't forget....aviation is rough..
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 36):
Pilotaydin:

You cannot remember routine, uneventful flights. But if one particular flight ended in a rice paddy with your aircraft on fire...chances are good that you would never forget that one.

That is after the fact though. He would not have guessed that his airplane would ended up in a rice field.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 38):
That is after the fact though.

All memory is "after the fact".

When something big happens.....like the space shuttle blowing up, everything directly leading up to the event is remembered long term by the reference to the event and the traumatizing effects it had on you. Everyone (in the USA) remembers what, who, where, when they were when they first heard about the 9-11 attacks.

I feel these two pilots remember exactly what problems they were having, what had been said during this time and to whom. I'm certain, barring any physical injury to the head, that the entire approach is remembered in blistering detail. Why we haven't heard from them, or any of the CVR, in the last month is certainly odd.

I know.....it takes time to create a believable truth, one that not only the aviation novices can accept but also the hardened veterans (like some on this board).
 
Gammagirl
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:42 am

Interesting reading in this mornings Sydney Morning Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/pla...peed/2007/04/06/1175366474352.html

According to the preliminary factual aircraft accident report, the plane hit the runway at 410 kmh and although the co-pilot suggested a go-around at a late stage, there was no evidence of an argument.

If the following is true, I foresee more strained relations to come  Sad

"The Indonesian Transport Minister, Hatta Radjasa, has tried to block the release of the "preliminary factual aircraft accident report", insisting that Australian authorities should threaten the families of the five Australian victims with up to two years' jail if they disseminate it."
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:05 am

From the article:

The Indonesian Transport Minister, Hatta Radjasa, has tried to block the release of the "preliminary factual aircraft accident report", insisting that Australian authorities should threaten the families of the five Australian victims with up to two years' jail if they disseminate it.

Nice! I have not the faintest idea about newspapers in Australia, but is the Sydney Morning Herald considered to be a reliable newspaper? If yes, then I really wonder how they found out. This is either brilliant journalism or sleaze - I have no idea which one.

The Herald has obtained a full copy of the document from sources in Jakarta. It contains all the technical details of the crash, but makes no final analysis.

Would they care to post it here maybe? Unlikely of course, but the fact that it has been leaked would suggest that we might have a chance to find out what it says...
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
Gammagirl
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RE: Pilot Disagreement Caused Garuda Crash.

Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:33 pm

A clarification, it seems:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/...ATSB/2007/04/07/1175366524674.html

Not suppressed, merely delayed as a courtesy to those families affected.