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Tugger
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Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:28 pm

OK I can't believe this but I was just talking with someone in the cargo industry (freight forwarding) and he was claiming that commercial passenger aircraft are no longed going to be carrying cargo when carrying passengers. Or at least USA flights won't due to security concerns and the inability for containers to be 100% scanned in a cost effective manner.

Now I argued that it couldn't be as airlines needed the additional revenue or the economic model wouldn't work. I find it hard, no impossible to believe but he stated that they (his industry) already don't ship cargo in the bellies of passengers planes.

Anyway long story short... is this true or coming?

No flaming or mean comments please, this a real question as I want o be able to refute this to him.

Thanks,

Tug
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AlexPorter
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:47 pm

Did they tell you this today (April 1st)? It is April Fools' Day, after all. In all honesty, there is no way the airlines would go for this. There are a lot of routes that are cargo-intensive, which would not be able to succeed if not for cargo. I think there would have to be some sort of major incident first for them to ban cargo on passenger flights.
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A342
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:48 pm

I've also read that this is indeed a question mark - but only on flights to/from the USA.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
A342
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 1):
Did they tell you this today (April 1st)? It is April Fools' Day, after all.

Oh come on, would you really tell such a serious, un-funny story ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 3):
Oh come on, would you really tell such a serious, un-funny story ?

You're right. I forgot that unlikely rumors come out of the airline industry year-round.  duck 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting Tugger (Thread starter):
OK I can't believe this but I was just talking with someone in the cargo industry (freight forwarding) and he was claiming that commercial passenger aircraft are no longed going to be carrying cargo when carrying passengers. Or at least USA flights won't due to security concerns and the inability for containers to be 100% scanned in a cost effective manner.

The only that can't be carried aboard passenger aircraft is anything labled as Hazardous materials, or hazmat as commonly referred to.
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philb
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 pm

There are various security concerns re cargo and these have been under review - without total reolution - since Lockerbie. LCCs don't carry freight, on the other hand a number of major airlines only stay in business on some routes due to the money they make from hold freight.

If there is any truth in the story the airlines have lost a battle they have fought for over seventeen years since the idea was first seriously mooted.
 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Pla

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 1):
Did they tell you this today (April 1st)? It is April Fools' Day

I am confident that this is not an April Fool's joke. (but it sure sounds like it could be, I even accused him of it too.)

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 1):
there is no way the airlines would go for this. There are a lot of routes that are cargo-intensive, which would not be able to succeed if not for cargo.

I Agree! I think cargo is absolutely key to airlines. Without it airlines would have to charge significantly more for tickets to cover costs which would cause passenger traffic to drop which would cause prices to increase which...... I just can't imagine it would be possible but then that wouldn't stop brilliant bureaucrat's from making rules that cause things like this.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
The only that can't be carried aboard passenger aircraft is anything labled as Hazardous materials, or hazmat as commonly referred to.

He mentioned that household goods can't be shipped via passenger carrying aircraft. Perhaps he was only meaning international shipments into the USA but he also referred to interstate transport too.

Tug

[Edited 2007-04-02 09:07:55]
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Danny
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting Tugger (Thread starter):
OK I can't believe this but I was just talking with someone in the cargo industry (freight forwarding) and he was claiming that commercial passenger aircraft are no longed going to be carrying cargo when carrying passengers.

Any freight forwarder knows that 75% of worldwide cargo goes on passenger aircraft. It is basically impossible to stop doing that.
 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
The only that can't be carried aboard passenger aircraft is anything labled as Hazardous materials, or hazmat as commonly referred to.

Maybe in the US. But in Canada hazmat can be shipped on passenger flights. With tons of regulations though.

Kris
 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
The only that can't be carried aboard passenger aircraft is anything labled as Hazardous materials, or hazmat as commonly referred to.

hazmat, is carried regularly in the bellies of PAX aircraft. Hazmat suitable for airtravel is classified either Cargo Aircraft Only(CAO) or PAX which can travel on passanger flights.

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
LCCs don't carry freight.

Both Jetblue, and Southwest carry at least some cargo
 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:28 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 8):

Any freight forwarder knows that 75% of worldwide cargo goes on passenger aircraft. It is basically impossible to stop doing that.

This guy has been in the business for 30+ years he knows exactly how things flow. And you may be referring to aircargo but most cargo in the world travels on a ship not a plane. And admittedly most of his material is carried by ship as speed is not of the essence.

Tug
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PanHAM
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):

The only that can't be carried aboard passenger aircraft is anything labled as Hazardous materials, or hazmat as commonly referred to.

It has been said already, that only DGR (Dangerous Goods) classified as CAO (Cargo Aircraft Onöly) cannot be loaded on passenger planes. I write thois to refer to the proper words/abbreviations.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 11):

This guy has been in the business for 30+ years he knows exactly how things flow. And you may be referring to aircargo but most cargo in the world t

I am approaching 40 years in that business and prohibiting cargo on passenger flight would be a most stupid and unacceptable move. I know there are intentions by US lawmakers in that direction but so far intelligence prevailed over stupidity.

To get things straight - Lockervbie was nit "cargo" but passenger baggage. It has since been made impossiblem that passenger fbaggage flies in an aircraft without the passenger who owns to that baggage sitting above in the cabin. It happens regularly that flights are delayed for a few minutes because those bags get offloaded.

Freight Forwarders know their customers, we never accept cargo from unkown people and put this freight unchecked on the mnext flight out. This "known shipper" procedure has been in olace for many years. Since last year, a EU directive with further precautions has been put in place oin all EU countries.

A disctintion is made between "secure" cargo which meets all the criteria and is tendered to the carrier as suc, and cargo that does notmeet this criteria, which is then checked separately by the carrier. After these checks, there is no reason wuatsoever, not to place such cargo on passenger aircaraft.

Furthermore, there are regulations in place to secure all cargo over 68 kgs with band iron or plastic tape, to prevent persons from using such cases as "stow-away". As an old freight dog, who has moved thousands of tons over the years, such non sense regulations can be dreamed up only by people who know absolutely, nothing of what they are talking about. These people are commonly called "Politicians" all over the world.

As mentioned before, so far there is no regulation to restrict freight on passenger aircraft anmd I hope there never will be. There have been talks to check such freight "100 üercent" and some morons even have suggested to open every piece of freight. What such a move would do to international trade is simply explained. It would stop all activities since it simply cannot be done.

Besides, it is absolutley unnecessary, the known shipper regulations and freight forwarders make sure that air cargo is safe.
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zvezda
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:06 pm

If such an inane rule were to be adopted, economic bloodbath could be avoided by requiring that bureaucrats be shipped in the hold with the pets -- at full F fares.
 
philb
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:28 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
To get things straight - Lockervbie was nit "cargo" but passenger baggage.

But Lockerbie highlighted a possible area of danger and concentrated attention on bombs in the hold instead of the then almost singular attention given to potential hijackings.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Freight Forwarders know their customers, we never accept cargo from unkown people and put this freight unchecked on the mnext flight out. This "known shipper" procedure has been in olace for many years. Since last year, a EU directive with further precautions has been put in place oin all EU countries.

... and you know as well as I do that the "known shipper" arrangement, started in the UK in the 1990s, is open to abuse. I had a great deal to do with the discussions in the UK at airline, handler, ground transport provider levels and saw the implementation in action, the changes that had to be made and, even now, the system is by no means foolproof.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
As mentioned before, so far there is no regulation to restrict freight on passenger aircraft anmd I hope there never will be. There have been talks to check such freight "100 üercent" and some morons even have suggested to open every piece of freight. What such a move would do to international trade is simply explained. It would stop all activities since it simply cannot be done.

Correct and, therefore, the system will never be 100% foolproof and safe.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Besides, it is absolutley unnecessary, the known shipper regulations and freight forwarders make sure that air cargo is safe.

Not true. They go a long way to helping but there are still ways to defeat the system as, if you are in the industry, you will be aware and these are as open now as they were when I first facilitated a cargo security conference shortly after Lockerbie.
 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
LCCs don't carry freight

Well that's not true.....SWA sure does frieght. http://www.swacargo.com/

AirTran does cargo http://www.airtrancargo.com/
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philb
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:36 pm

Air Tran does do cargo, Southwest does packages
 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 7):
I am confident that this is not an April Fool's joke. (but it sure sounds like it could be, I even accused him of it too.)

It is not. This has been under discussion by politicians for some time, it's not the first time it's been in the news. I've read it a couple of months ago in a serious news report.
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 14):
the system will never be 100% foolproof and safe.

And what is that supposed to tell us? No system will ever be. Do you really think that cargo transportation by aircraft should be banned?

The consequence is obvious: increased shipping costs on many consumer goods, resulting in higher sales prices. Plus increased ticket prices for most international routes. And what do we gain? A protection that is still not 100% foolproof.
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PanHAM
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Pla

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 14):

But Lockerbie highlighted a possible area of danger and concentrated attention on bombs in the hold instead of the then almost singular attention given to potential hijackings.

again, Lockerbie was baggage. Baggage shipped as cargo was handled with special care before Lockerbie. It was either screened or put into a pressure chamber, or stored at least 48 hrs. before flight or a combination of the 3. Boh Lockerbie and the UTA flight that exploded over Chad was State terrorism and Mr. Ghaddafi had paid up, at least in terms of cash., he is not jailed, unfortunately.

. .

Quoting Philb (Reply 14):
and you know as well as I do that the "known shipper" arrangement, started in the UK in the 1990s, is open to abuse. I had a great deal to do with the discussions in the UK at airline, handler, ground transport provider levels and saw the implementation in action, the changes that had to be made and, even now, the system is by no means foolproof.

But it is not abused. You have a highly professional system, with cargo agents, mostly (ATA approved, we know our shippers, people we don't know get the treatment under -see above - we have companies and careers at stake. The system has been refined and is noit the same anymore it was in the early 90s. New regulations came into place last year. The system is safe and proven. Not a single incident has happened. Warehouses and cargo centres are restricted areas, it takes usually a couple of hours, often more than a day until freight gets actually on a plane, just to mnention some precautions..

.

Quoting Philb (Reply 14):

Correct and, therefore, the system will never be 100% foolproof and safe.

much better than the cleaning or loading staff at airports. It is impossible, to physically check every cargo item, as was suggested by some people in the US. Besides that air cargo would grind to a stop, damages to goods would be dramatical. Try opening - and closing - a professionally packed carton, crate or whatever, by people earning minimum wage. That would be a desaster. Open a DGR shipment and you can immediately send it back to the packers, open a radioactive shipment, or an infectuous. Have fun. I could make an endless list.



Quoting Philb (Reply 14):
Not true. They go a long way to helping but there are still ways to defeat the system as, if you are in the industry, you will be aware and these are as open now as they were when I first

The systen hasn't been defeated in decades of air cargo, not in the high times of high jacking and not by terrorists in more recent times,. Guess why, too much hassle. You don't get into airport cargo areas just like that, you don't tender a piece of freight through an agent just like that. If you do, the cargo is delivered as "unsecured" , same if they go direct to the airline. You don't even know which plane the goods get on. On outsider does not have a chance to plant a bomb on a particular .aircraft.

Air cargo is much safer than passenger baggage, be it checked or carry on. Banning air cargo from passenger planes would be the most stupid thing to do. It would not make aviation safer. It would seriously harm international trade and make a lot of business models obsolete, ruin companies - not only freight forwarders but shippers who depend on air freight. Banning air freight from passenger flights would be like suicide in fear of death.

..
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting Tugger (Thread starter):
he was claiming that commercial passenger aircraft are no longed going to be carrying cargo when carrying passengers

Personal effects cargo is not permitted as belly-frieght on pax aircraft operating to/from the USA.

Commercial cargo from "known shippers" is very much permitted as belly-frieght worldwide.
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OOer
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
LCCs don't carry freight



Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
Air Tran does do cargo, Southwest does packages

If it wasn't for cargo WN would lose money every quarter even with the hedges!!!

I remember last year every morning we would have at least 30 cases of fish going out on every flight out of MCO!!!! Sometimes we would have over 3k pounds of cargo.
 
MGASJO
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 20):
Personal effects cargo is not permitted as belly-frieght on pax aircraft operating to/from the USA.

Not true. Personal effects are to be opened and screened fully -100%- in order to be loaded on pax aircraft. This is done very often coming and going to USA.
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Tugger
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Pla

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 20):
Personal effects cargo is not permitted as belly-frieght on pax aircraft operating to/from the USA.

OK! - This could make his comments make sense finally! Thank you!!!
A few follow-on questions then: Why is this so? Why ban "personal effects cargo" and what is its definition? When did this go into effect? And what will prevent the idiots from expanding this? (The answers to the three previous questions may answer this one.)

Tug
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PanHAM
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 23):
OK! - This could make his comments make sense finally! Thank you!!!
A few follow-on questions then: Why is this so? Why ban "personal effects cargo" and what is its definition? When did this go into effect? And what will prevent the idiots from expanding this? (The answers to the three previous questions may answer this one.)

The proper term for "Personal effects" is " Baggage, unaccompanied", or "Baggaged shipped as cargo"
is:

A passengers baggage, inclduing personal wearing appearal and personal artciles, (incldg portable musical instruments, portable type writers,and portable sports equipment, but without machinery, machine or spare parets, money, securities, jewellry, watches,plate and plated ware, furs, film, cameras, documents,tickets, licquors, and artciles of household furnitures and salesman samples.) when shipped as cargo.

Special precautions for unaccompanied baggage are in place for a very long time, I could not say how long, but it was in place before Lockerbie. Again,Lockerbie was accompanied baggage. I am not aware of a single case where air cargo placed by terrorists or other crominals has caused the destruction of an aircraft. There have been cases where improper declared cargo has been the cause, such as the SAA 747 combi en route from Taiwan to JNB. FEDEX has seen a couple of cases where improper declared DGR caused the destruction of a plane or serious incidents. With FX and other integrators, the fault is in the system. You have uneducated clients, no freight forwarder in between who discovers the mistale and no time to check.

Bingo. UPS at Philly last year might have been another case..

. .
To answer the question, what will prevent some people from expending this - nothing, If iditots want to act idiotoic, they just do it. There actually has been legsialtion in process to prevent cargo from passenger flights. Only by Industry Lobby can such a ridiculous, ill informed legislation be held up before it becomes law.
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smylinpilot
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:48 am

For some airlines like America West, carrying passengers is merely a bonus. A large part of thier revenue is actually from the shipping of cargo such as US Mail. Its more profitable to carry cargo. Cargo doesn't complain and doesn't mind being kicked around the tarmac Big grin

smylinpilot
 
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:27 am

Why does it not surprise me to hear this kind of non-sense coming from the US.
No offence to US a.netters but it's always for the USA that rules have to be implemented. Some are good and some are over the top. And this one is way over the top

I really can't imagine that any government will do this to the airlines in the respective nation, as this will be bankruptcy for 85 to 90 % of the airlines concerned. No matter whether you talk about SA)">DL, AC, SK, TP, IB, SA, KQ, NZ or any other belly-carrier, the will face hard times when they should not be allowed to haul freight on the Lowerdeck of their a/c.
I really hope this is an aprils fools' day joke.
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N766UA
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:27 am

The airlines would never let the revenue they make from cargo be snatched away from them. It'll never happen. Mind you some pets, outsized luggage, and HRs are cargo... not gunna tell someone they have to send their loved one UPS!
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 26):
Why does it not surprise me to hear this kind of non-sense coming from the US.
No offence to US a.netters but it's always for the USA that rules have to be implemented. Some are good and some are over the top. And this one is way over the top

You can blame the TSA for this, not US a.netters.
 
magyar
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:19 am

What I find somewhat amusing is that when the cargo advantage of the A32X over B737NG comes
up in the weekly AvsB threads here, all the Boeing crowd is quick to point out how unimportant it is
for single aisle operators.
Now it appears that even SWA has a crucial cargo business!!!
 
midex461
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
If such an inane rule were to be adopted, economic bloodbath could be avoided by requiring that bureaucrats be shipped in the hold with the pets -- at full F fares.

I like that idea! This might get the bureaucrats to use some intelligence, especially since not all airlilnes carry pets in the hold!
Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways
 
pdxcof9
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
LCCs don't carry freight



Quoting Aerlinguscargo (Reply 10):
Both Jetblue, and Southwest carry at least some cargo

Don't forget Frontier!! They carry cargo too!!!
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lotsamiles
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:19 am

I miss the days of counter to counter shipments before 9/11. It was very useful to drop a package at the local United Express desk and have a package to my colleague in Seattle in about 3 hours. I did this many times to make same day deliveries of parts, etc. from LAX all over the US. The counter staff simply opened up the package to inspect the contents, thus ensuring it was safe.

I tried to do this recently to ship a package ahead of my arrival in PTY on Copa, knowing they had a nightly flight. However, they sent me to a forwarder who was going to put my shipment on a freighter instead, going out a few days later. UPS and FedEx both quoted 3 business days as well so I ended up carrying it with me instead.

So, from it seems that cargo is still very much a part of pax airlines but it is not as easy as it once was to tap into the system.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Pdxcof9 (Reply 31):
Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
LCCs don't carry freight



Quoting Aerlinguscargo (Reply 10):
Both Jetblue, and Southwest carry at least some cargo

Don't forget Frontier!! They carry cargo too!!!

So clearly, LCCs DO carry freight. From your list, I can't think of one that DOESN'T carry freight.
Good goes around!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 33):

So clearly, LCCs DO carry freight. From your list, I can't think of one that DOESN'T carry freight.

Ryanair and EASY both do not carry freight. Air Berlin does.
It depends on the business model, Air Berlin's is smarter.

.
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floridaflyboy
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
Ryanair and EASY both do not carry freight. Air Berlin does.
It depends on the business model, Air Berlin's is smarter.

I was referring to US LCC's. That's interesting, though, that Easy and Ryanair don't.
Good goes around!
 
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Tugger
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Pla

Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
Ryanair and EASY both do not carry freight. Air Berlin does.
It depends on the business model, Air Berlin's is smarter.

Of course didn't I hear something about Ryanair putting passengers in containers in the belly as a way to increase revenue further....... Big grin

Seriously though, with what has been shared here I am going to have to go back now and find out more. He seemed to imply that it was relatively recent (within the last few years) that this happened. And PanHAM just to give you reference, this guy has been doing this stuff since 1962, starting with moving all the Military, in fact he set up the office/operation for his company at that time in Hamburg (working with Interdean) many years back.

I can't see aircargo being outright banned but there is a push or move to try to make it "100% safe", which is impossible of course. He mentioned that bureaucrats here were at one time trying to make blast-proof containers mandatory but that they were too heavy and the industry successfully fought it off.

Tug
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ekskycargo370
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:13 am

The answer to this topic....biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard!
 
MGASJO
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
Ryanair and EASY both do not carry freight

Given that FR does not carry cargo and I have read somewhere in this forum that they charge to check bags, are those cargo holds always empty??? what a waste!! I know it helps them with super quick turn arounds and such, but since I've worked in cargo for some years, empty space in the hold means less $$$.
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ha763
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:14 am

I work for an airline in cargo and there hasn't been anything said about no cargo on pax flights from my managers or the freight forwarders we deal with. My airline even had a recent meeting with the TSA about cargo screening regulations and nothing was said about this. If anything, it would seem to be specific to that freight forwarder.

As for personnel effects/unaccompanied baggage, we do get them on our pax flights all the time. If it is unacompanied baggage, it always has the special cargo code UBG.

Personally, I would prefer to screen 100% of cargo. It would reduce the headache I have to go through everytime I have to deal with the ever changing regulations and paperwork. However, this is going to require a lot of money. There are x-ray machines are available with 2m x 2.2m tunnel openings. That's almost big enough to fit a pallet built up for the lower deck and would cut the need to open up cargo, except in certain cases.
 
B757FAN
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:16 am

This is a move that doesn't surprise me at all. I used to be a long time employee for a U.S. based Legacy carrier and I worked in the Air Cargo dept. The TSA has been pushing for a ban on Air Cargo for years now. If / When this happens it wont surprise me in the least.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting Tugger (Thread starter):
OK I can't believe this but I was just talking with someone in the cargo industry (freight forwarding) and he was claiming that commercial passenger aircraft are no longed going to be carrying cargo when carrying passengers. Or at least USA flights won't due to security concerns and the inability for containers to be 100% scanned in a cost effective manner.

US airlines have been given new security standards set by the TSA that will require much more screening of freight.

There is too much revenue and revenue potential for passenger airlines to stop carrying freight. They pretty much have to suck it up and pay the extra cost of the extra security. Especially in today's environment. Every sellable inch of an aircraft needs to be on the market.
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PanHAM
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 36):
Of course didn't I hear something about Ryanair putting passengers in containers in the belly as a way to increase revenue furt

738 have no containers loaded in bellies.320s/321s have AKH's. Means that Ryanair might introduce "cellar class"

Quoting Tugger (Reply 36):
Seriously though, with what has been shared here I am going to have to go back now and find out more. He seemed to imply that it was relatively recent (within the last few years) that this happened. And PanHAM just to give you

There have been talks about that. Some politicians who don't know what they are talking about wanted cargo banned from passenger flights. Next stupid request was to physically inspect all freight,meaning, opening up shipments. That is virtually impossible, Goods would be damaged, DGR would not be safe for loading after such an inspecition, and, and ...
What the industry does not need are regulations made by people who know absolutely nothing about the industry.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 36):
He mentioned that bureaucrats here were at one time trying to make blast-proof containers mandatory but that they were too heavy and the industry successfully fought it off.

still on the table. A blast-proof LD3 type container costs $ 20K, a standard costs $ 1K, the blast proof lasts one year, the standard LD3 lasts 8 years, the standard has 153 cubic feet capacity, the blast proof only 104. There you go.
However, the blast poroof was not meant for cargo but for pax baggage.

Again, cargo is much safer than pax baggage. I am repeating myself that the involvement of freight forwarders is a saftey aspect by itself. We know our customers, we know what they are shipping. Customers we don't know get a completey different handling. Furthermore, we are regulated concerning safety, since last year.

I have nothing against x-raying goods, using dogs or explosive sniffers. A shipment delivered as "unsafe" (which it is not, ony the shipper did not comply with "safe" regulations because he might be an unregular shipper) will be x-raed, sniffed or whatever here at FRA and airlines have made sure that cut-off times are still met. Fine.

What I strongly oppose is the opening of any cargo, that simply does not work and such a regulation would be highly unprofessional and of course the total ban of air cargo on pax flights, which would be totally unfounded and unreasonable. What is BS as well is the new regulation by the US that all packages over 68 kgs!!!! must get an additional band iron or plastic tape around to prevent "stow-aways" . Whoever dreams up such BS must have seen too many B and C movies in his life. Totally ridiculous, unfounded, unnecessary step. If some bureaucrats in the US have a stow-away phobia they should send a TSA guy with a CO² detector through a plane.

I have said that in other threads and say it here again. Precaution against terrorists should be with the CIA, NSA and whatever agencies there are around. If the knowledge of these agencies had been properly applied and the necessary steps had been taken in time, 9/11 would not have happened.
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Maverick623
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting MGASJO (Reply 22):
Not true. Personal effects are to be opened and screened fully -100%- in order to be loaded on pax aircraft. This is done very often coming and going to USA.

El-wrongo. (Sorry, spent a long day doing Mexico inbounds!  banghead  )

When the facilities exist, the bags go through "sophisticated" X-ray machines that can also detect certain types of substances used in explosives. If TSA sees something suspicious in the X-ray, or if the machine alarms to certain chemical compounds, then they dig through the bag, otherwise the sticker/stamp is put on and the bag goes on it's merry way.

However, in stations such as PHX, there are not enough machines for the int'l arrivals, so TSA does the swab and check. Some bags are opened, some are not. It's completely random, so you'll never know if you're bag is going to be torn apart or simply swabbed until they put the little card in your bag.

Hope that clears up some confusion, although I suspect it will only add more  pessimist 
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PanHAM
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:43 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Hope that clears up some confusion, although I suspect it will only add more

we are not talking about baggage here. Whatever the TSA does, let them do it. Cecking inbound baggage AFTER the flight arrival is for contraband but not for explosives. The TSA is made up of Customs, IRS and security, so the have the right to check inbounds as well.

However the topic of this thread is CARGO. Baggage is cargo only if it is unaccompanied. As long as the owner sits in the same airplane, it is simply baggage.
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Maverick623
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
Cecking inbound baggage AFTER the flight arrival is for contraband but not for explosives. The TSA is made up of Customs, IRS and security, so the have the right to check inbounds as well.

Again, wrong. But as you said:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
However the topic of this thread is CARGO

Thus I will conclude with this:

Cargo will forever be a part of passenger airline service.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
philb
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 18):
And what is that supposed to tell us? No system will ever be. Do you really think that cargo transportation by aircraft should be banned?

Obviously and No.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Lockerbie was baggage. Baggage shipped as cargo was handled with special care before Lockerbie. It was either screened or put into a pressure chamber, or stored at least 48 hrs. before flight or a combination of the 3

No need to repeat yourself. I'm well aware of the cause of the Lockerbie incident. Just how many pressure chambers were there in Europe in 1988, in the mid 1990s and how many are there today?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
But it is not abused. You have a highly professional system, with cargo agents, mostly (ATA approved, we know our shippers, people we don't know get the treatment under -see above - we have companies and careers at stake. The system has been refined and is noit the same anymore it was in the early 90s. New regulations came into place last year. The system is safe and proven. Not a single incident has happened. Warehouses and cargo centres are restricted areas, it takes usually a couple of hours, often more than a day until freight gets actually on a plane, just to mnention some precautions..

The syatem is based on traceability, not infallibilty. The fact that it hasn't been abused is due to diligence and vigilance, not an inherent inbuilt safety factor.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Air cargo is much safer than passenger baggage, be it checked or carry on. Banning air cargo from passenger planes would be the most stupid thing to do. It would not make aviation safer. It would seriously harm international trade and make a lot of business models obsolete, ruin companies - not only freight forwarders but shippers who depend on air freight. Banning air freight from passenger flights would be like suicide in fear of death.

That's stating the obvious. Just because it has, so far, been safe doesn't mean it can't be abused. The Valujet crash was due to a known shipper defeating the system in a non terrorist way. A brain storming session at a conference I ran in London with senior airline/air cargo execs and regulatory representatives from 40 countries in 1997 came up with some very inventive ways to beat the arrangements in being then and led to some tightening. No system is perfect.

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 35):
I was referring to US LCC's

Strangely there is a world outside the USA.
 
dc10bhx
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
I am not aware of a single case where air cargo placed by terrorists or other crominals has caused the destruction of an aircraft.

I can remember an Air Lanka (Before the name change to SriLankan) L1011 being written off on the ground at CMB due to a device hidden in a shipment of fruit or vegetables being sent as cargo. Thankfully the A/c was on the ground at the time. I have been trying to think of any other instances where cargo has been used to disguise such a device but without any success.

Further to PanHam's comments, we as forwarding agents in the UK must undergo ongoing training with regards to security procedures which includes both hand search techniques and current legistlation in place around the industry.
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PanHAM
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 46):
cause of the Lockerbie incident. Just how many pressure chambers were there in Europe in 1988, in the mid 1990s and how many are there today

the one in Frankfurt was recebtly scrapped because there are much better means to handle the situation.

Quoting Philb (Reply 46):
The syatem is based on traceability, not infallibilty. The fact that it hasn't been abused is due to diligence and vigilance, not an inherent inbuilt safety factor.

you have a point here, however, with the new regulations set into effect in Europe over the past months, air cargo would be a "hard" target. There is simply too much hassle to be "successful" which is an additional safety point

Quoting Philb (Reply 46):
That's stating the obvious. Just because it has, so far, been safe doesn't mean it can't be abused. The Valujet crash was due to a known shipper defeating the system in a non terrorist way. A brain storming session at a conference I ran in London with senior airline/air cargo execs and regulatory representatives from 40 countries in 1997 came up with some very inventive ways to beat the arrangements in being then and led to some tightening. No system is perfect

contrary to the guys who were involved in handling the oxygen generators, terrorists are intelligent. If that shipment had been handled through a freight forwarder, the crash would never have happened. "Oyxgen Generators" rings all bells with trained staff (which is mandatory to run an agency) and proper packaging and declaration would have been requested by the FF.

Quoting Philb (Reply 46):
Strangely there is a world outside the USA.

I always say that there is another planet outside the USA

Quoting Dc10bhx (Reply 47):

I can remember an Air Lanka (Before the name change to SriLankan) L1011 being written off on the ground at CMB due to a device hidden in a shipment of fruit or vegetables being sent as cargo. Thankfully the A/c was on the ground at the time. I have been trying to think of a

don't take that as an example. Sri Lanka is involved in a civil war, the "Tamil Tigers als managed to explode several aircraft a couple of years ago and most recently they bombed the "military section" of CMB. google earth the place and you will see how close that is to the "civilian" part.

Quoting Dc10bhx (Reply 47):
Further to PanHam's comments, we as forwarding agents in the UK must undergo ongoing training with regards to security procedures which includes both hand search techniques and current legistlation in place around the indust

so must we in Germany. The UK regulations might be different from ours because the EU scope might give some room. I would apply "hand searching" of cargo only to personal effects in presence of the customer. I would not touch a professionally packed carton. You have to do that on imports sometimes, OK, but then there is usually only a short onward transport. The potential damages are too big.

Besides, who pays us for that? We have to charge at least Euro 60,00 an hour plus material. Try to get that from your customer in this competetive business.
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dc10bhx
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RE: Cargo No Longer To Be Carried On Passenger Planes?

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
don't take that as an example. Sri Lanka is involved in a civil war, the "Tamil Tigers als managed to explode several aircraft a couple of years ago and most recently they bombed the "military section" of CMB

The UL L1011 is actually quoted as a terrorist act during the training material. If memory serves me right this actually happened prior to the rise of the Tamil Tigers that were around in the late 80s and 90s.

With regards to the hand search principle I agree with the option being available to check on a personal effects shipment whilst in their presence, but we are also allowed (if required) to carry out a hand search on a commercial shipment. This is normally only done as a last resort. My favoured option for all shipments would be x-ray or sniffer.

Please also bear in mind that since the 70s here in the UK anything being shipped to BFS (Norther Ireland) had to be security screened via sniffer or hand search due to the troubles happening then. The security aspect of airfreight is not a new thing (even since Lockerbie) nor should it be trated as an irrelevance. I would hope that anyone involved in the movement of both passengers and cargo by airfreight will accept that for security reasons procedures have got to change to keep up with advances in technology. What is new today will be old hat and a distant memory next year.
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