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clickhappy
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TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:01 am

TSA missed 90% of bombs at Denver airport, confiscated 100% of $5 coffees.

from Fark

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=67166&
 
cloudy
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:11 am

Just shows that paying people a lot more, adding a lot of beauraucratic overheads and giving them the protections federal employees enjoy won't automatically ead to better security. All it does is increase expenses. Screening is not a synonym for security, anyway.
 
rampart
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:19 am

Sad. Of all the TSA staff I've encountered, Denver's was the most customer-friendly, even going out of their way to help me during the first "liquids scare". I would have hoped that customer service and effective screening weren't mutually exclusive.

-Rampart
 
burnsie28
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:30 am

Well in even a more stupid move by the government, they pubically announced this... sure lets just tell the terrorist that we can't stop these devices. But yet they won't let us know why the put some regulations in place.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:51 am

Wow I'm shocked. And by shocked I mean not surprised at all. The DEN TSA leadership is not particularly bright from personal experience but I'm sure it's representative of the entire country. If you think it's bad now, wait until they're unionized Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ikramerica
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:08 am

Part of the reason security does or doesn't work are the people's desire to not get caught. The fallacy of the "red team" tests is that every one of those people is perfectly willing to get caught because they won't go to jail and they also have the confidence to know that they aren't in any danger. Thus they won't exhibit any suspicious behavior, even under immediate questioning.

It's the old adage, the outcome is changed by measuring it.

This is not to say the TSA is doing a great job. But these types of exercises will undoubtedly create more failures than might occur in reality because of the nature of who are the "red team" to begin with.

Also, with a bomb strapped to your leg, if you think you will get caught, and you're goal is to die a martyr, why would you not just blow yourself up there?

You'd think we'd already have seen such an attack here in the USA, if the intent was just to kill a few people. But the intent is to create a huge, international event that increases support and recruitment back home in foreign lands. And so far, that has not happened. Whether or not the TSA is responsible or it's shear luck, you can debate that, but there is no mistaking that in 5.5 years, there has not been another attack on the air industry in the USA.

In one test, sources told 9NEWS an agent taped an IED to her leg and told the screener it was a bandage from surgery. Even though alarms sounded on the walk-through metal detector, the agent was able to bluff her way past the screener.

While they should have checked the leg better by all means, fast thinking perfect english speaking women are very low on the list of bombing suspects.

These tests seem to be designed as a PC experiment, to take the element of "racial profiling" out of the equation, because "anyone can be a terrorist." This flies in the face of logic. We already harass 80 year old Japanese tourists for no reason for our protection, but now we are devising tests to reinforce that waste of resources.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
graphic
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 3):
Well in even a more stupid move by the government, they pubically announced this...

They didn't publicly announce it. If you read the article, the info was given to 9news by an anonymous source.

Does anybody in the Denver area remember when (I think in 2002) a group of reporters from several of the news agencies (850 KOA, Channel 4) went out to DIA with the sole purpose of busting security, and every one of them was able to get on the ramp without being caught or questioned?
Demand Media fails at life
 
atmx2000
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
You'd think we'd already have seen such an attack here in the USA, if the intent was just to kill a few people. But the intent is to create a huge, international event that increases support and recruitment back home in foreign lands. And so far, that has not happened. Whether or not the TSA is responsible or it's shear luck, you can debate that, but there is no mistaking that in 5.5 years, there has not been another attack on the air industry in the USA.

The truth is we are already screwed if bombmakers are in the country, because there are a lot of easier targets to bomb. Security has to be multilayered, with the first and most important layer being denial of entry, since you can't guarantee that any single layer of domestic security will be even be near 50% sensitive.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:17 am

Why don't they just use thousands of bomb-sniffing dogs? They're a hell of a lot more effective, are less invasive, and have one hell of a track record.

Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
DL4EVR
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:45 am

Another great accomplishment by the TSA!! $6 Billion last year well spent! Keep up the great work Komrade Kip!
We Love To Fly And It Shows.
 
F9Animal
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 6):
Does anybody in the Denver area remember when (I think in 2002) a group of reporters from several of the news agencies (850 KOA, Channel 4) went out to DIA with the sole purpose of busting security, and every one of them was able to get on the ramp without being caught or questioned?

If the news crew was able to get on the ramp, then it was not entirely the TSA's fault. It is every airport employees job to CHALLENGE, and ensure a secure work environment. Let's face it, it is not just airplanes and airports that are targets to terrorists.

The TSA is not perfect, but they certainly have the opportunity to get better. If a terrorist wanted to target an aircraft, they could do it without even accessing an airport these days. What scares the bejesus out of me is the story of the Akria (I think I spelled that right) plane that had a shoulder fired missile shot at it. That was a real eye opener for me.

If you think the TSA is bad, imagine what the other government agencies lack in. New Orleans was just a taste of our emergency preparedness and reaction abilities to a major terrorist attack or natuaral disaster.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Wow I'm shocked. And by shocked I mean not surprised at all. The DEN TSA leadership is not particularly bright from personal experience but I'm sure it's representative of the entire country

Remember a few years back when a screener ran himself through the X-Ray machine? I believe that was at DEN.
Good goes around!
 
RedChili
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:02 am

Quote:
"There's very little substance to security," said former Red Team leader Bogdan Dzakovic. "It literally is all window dressing that we're doing. It's big theater on TV and when you go to the airport. It's just security theater."

...

Dzakovic, who is currently a TSA inspector, said security is no better today [after 9/11].

"It's worse now. The terrorists can pretty much do what they want when they want to do it," he said.

Totally agree. In my opinion, it's worse today because the security people have to concentrate on confiscating toothpaste instead of confiscating the really dangerous stuff. The new "security rules" appear to be a distraction.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
The fallacy of the "red team" tests is that every one of those people is perfectly willing to get caught because they won't go to jail and they also have the confidence to know that they aren't in any danger. Thus they won't exhibit any suspicious behavior, even under immediate questioning.

True, but you could also argue that a person who has trained for years to become a suicide terrorist would not be scared of getting caught.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
Whether or not the TSA is responsible or it's shear luck, you can debate that, but there is no mistaking that in 5.5 years, there has not been another attack on the air industry in the USA.

Some other possible explanations for the lack of successful attacks:
- Intelligence is doing a better job than pre-9/11.
- The terrorists are too busy fighting the USA in Iraq.
- Al-Qaeda has been decimated in Afghanistan.
- Making preparations for an attack like 9/11 could take up to ten years.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
We already harass 80 year old Japanese tourists for no reason for our protection,

Tell me about it! Last year I met an American tourist in Sweden. He was probably around 75-80 years old, he was a typical American elderly man, and he was almost deaf. When he changed planes in London, they took away the batteries from his hearing aid!!!

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 10):
Akria

Arkia.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
oly720man
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 12):
Some other possible explanations for the lack of successful attacks:
- Intelligence is doing a better job than pre-9/11.


From what I've read, Intelligence was doing a better job before 9/11 as well, but FBI agents weren't allowed to follow up on their investigations that could have stopped the attacks.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,249997,00.html
http://www.judicialwatch.org/printer_2469.shtml
http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/an...-fbi-agent-blows-the-whistle/3706/
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
AviationAddict
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:50 am

Doesn't surprise me, TSA is pretty bad (sorry if anyone here works for TSA). I flew last week and the lady at the ticket counter accidently gave me the wrong boarding pass; three TSA agents checked my boarding pass and ID at the checkpoint and not one of them noticed the discrepency. (This was at BOS). Once they realized I was flying to company headquarters (I work for 9K) all they cared about was shooting the breeze instead of doing their job.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 11):
Remember a few years back when a screener ran himself through the X-Ray machine? I believe that was at DEN.

Sure was!


I wonder if I can dish on the idiocy of the DEN (and other) TSA that I had to deal with at my previous line of work. I don't work for that carrier anymore and the programs I was involved with is done but I'm not sure if it's ok. On the one hand, their unbelievable incompetence should be brought to light, but on the other hand I don't want to end up in Guantanamo Silly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
justplanecrazy
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:13 pm

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 11):

Perhaps he wasn't sure wether he had a brain.
What happened to him?
your pilots today on this 747 flight are captain oliver hardy and assisting will be FO stan laurel.Have a safe flight
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
TSA missed 90% of bombs at Denver airport, confiscated 100% of $5 coffees.

But they're definitely there to tell you about the Native American imagery of the artwork in your carry on. There! I feel better now. Not!
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
md80fanatic
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:27 pm

TSA scores 10% in DEN? For a job that requires 100% in order to "pass".....they certainly have their work cut out for them.

TSA is like the snickering jock in the back of Algebra class, who turns in his tests with nothing more than his name on the paper.
 
smashme33
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:38 pm

This does not surprise me...don't they usually flunk their tests? After 9/11, so many departments, agencies, and big brothers were added in "response to terrorism", the most useless and bureaucratic being the TSA. The addition of this department did not ensure that things would be better or safer. I think normal people are hassled by TSA at the airport in order to give the impression that they are doing the good job that their own propaganda says they're doing.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
Whether or not the TSA is responsible or it's shear luck, you can debate that, but there is no mistaking that in 5.5 years, there has not been another attack on the air industry in the USA.

I'll debate...TSA is not the reason that there has not been another airline bomb or jet/side of building tragedy in the US. There may not ever be another one, because the terrorists are now just going to let the USA tear itself apart with ridiculous post 9/11 laws, unconstitutional policies, and something that the TSA well promotes...fear(through its propagana).

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 13):
From what I've read, Intelligence was doing a better job before 9/11 as well, but FBI agents weren't allowed to follow up on their investigations that could have stopped the attacks.

I'm quoting this piece above because it speaks volumes about the state of security in the US, and how it can be linked to anyone who would want to abuse and/or profit from it.
 
halls120
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 19):
I'll debate...TSA is not the reason that there has not been another airline bomb or jet/side of building tragedy in the US. There may not ever be another one, because the terrorists are now just going to let the USA tear itself apart with ridiculous post 9/11 laws, unconstitutional policies, and something that the TSA well promotes...fear(through its propagana).

The lack of TSA was not the reason 9/11 happened. 9/11 happened because the terrorists knew that then-existing airline policies made it virtually certain that the act of taking over an airplane in flight would succeed - even if the only weapon the terrorists were armed with were ball point pens held to the throat of a flight attendant.

We have allowed the federal government to create the illusion of security through TSA, when in fact we could have easily upgraded airport security - and made it more effective - for a fraction of the cost.

Instead, we now have another bloated ineffective federal bureaucracy that will only get worse once the democrats unionize it.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
aerlingusa330
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:49 pm

TSA .....Thousands Standing Around
Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
 
halls120
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting AerLingusA330 (Reply 21):
TSA .....Thousands Standing Around

you forgot to add "useless" at the end.  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
SuseJ772
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:16 pm

Wow, I guess people on this board don't think much of the TSA. Frankly, I think they have a very hard job with an incredible challenge: moving thousands of people through a process that should take 20 minutes (*cough* Tel Aviv) in about 30 seconds.

It's like when I watch people on the News complain about "the Airlines." I am always like, look, running an airline is a hard job. First you have to lower fares to play the supply/demand game. Then in order to actually make a thin profit you have to remove elements that aren't necessary. Then you get some jackal on the news complaining about how "flying the airlines these days are so barbaric," but didn't mention that he paid $200 roundtrip ATL-NYC.

I think whether you work for TSA or an airline, you have a hard job. And as a member of the flying public (not TSA or airline employee nor is anyone in my family or friends), I am going to continue cutting them some slack.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
georgiaame
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:23 pm

I had no idea that Denver was such a hot bed of bomber activity. But I like to look at the good job TSA does, rather than dwell on the bad. After all, they were able to find 10%. That should put the fear of god into a determined suicide bomber any day.

Jeez. And we pay these people? And they have the chutzpah to want to be unionized so they can never be fired? Please tell me this is an April Fool's Day story!
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
halls120
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 23):
I think whether you work for TSA or an airline, you have a hard job. And as a member of the flying public (not TSA or airline employee nor is anyone in my family or friends), I am going to continue cutting them some slack.

Good for you. Just remember that their presence in all likelihood won't prevent another terrorist takeover of an aircraft - armed pilots, armed air marshals, different airline policies will do that. Just remember that the critical vulnerability of airline security - under the wing security - hasn't been adequately addressed by TSA. Just remember that YOU are paying for - in terms of salaries and wasted time - for the illusion of security that doesn't really exist.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
aogdesk
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:24 am

You people are all glass half empty people. The good news is that 10% of the bombs were found. We are 10% safer because of it.

(Yes....I'm being sarcastic........just in case you're getting ready to flame)
 
smashme33
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:34 pm

RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting AerLingusA330 (Reply 21):
TSA .....Thousands Standing Around

  

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
We have allowed the federal government to create the illusion of security through TSA, when in fact we could have easily upgraded airport security - and made it more effective - for a fraction of the cost.

  

Yep, now that the feds have taken over, we can all be "officially" harassed. It's a shame that the US government has played on the fears and sensitivities of Americans(who were convinced that they needed to be more "secure") in order to gain more control of their everyday lives.

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 23):
And as a member of the flying public (not TSA or airline employee nor is anyone in my family or friends), I am going to continue cutting them some slack.

I won't cut TSA or airlines any slack as both have the money and power to do good things and make concrete, positive changes for the good of the public, but they refuse.

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 23):
Then you get some jackal on the news complaining about how "flying the airlines these days are so barbaric," but didn't mention that he paid $200 roundtrip ATL-NYC.

A $200 fare can't buy me out of a critical point of view, which is what they hope for. Besides, you had better believe that someone is paying a hefty premium to fly another route on the same airline.

[Edited 2007-04-03 18:31:42]
 
YYZYYT
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
Part of the reason security does or doesn't work are the people's desire to not get caught. The fallacy of the "red team" tests is that every one of those people is perfectly willing to get caught because they won't go to jail and they also have the confidence to know that they aren't in any danger. Thus they won't exhibit any suspicious behavior, even under immediate questioning.

It's the old adage, the outcome is changed by measuring it.



Quoting RedChili (Reply 12):
True, but you could also argue that a person who has trained for years to become a suicide terrorist would not be scared of getting caught

I would add, to a dedicated suicide bomber, there is also no fear of getting caught: just different outcomes that all lead to the same place...

I can believe the story. I travel with children, strollers and car seats. One at least THREE occassions since 911, security has taken a stroller around the checkpoint without screening it at all. And I am not talking about a search that was only perfunctory (also common), I am talking about passing it through the machine to the screener, who lays it aside and waits for the machine to stop screaming... than I go through, have my belt buckle examined in minute detail, following which the screener hands the stroller to me, without as much as looking at it.

Also, there is a carry pouch on the stroller that contains a number of sharpened plastic sticks (the kind that have little flags attahed) and a metal pin approximately 3 inches long (that I use to collapse the stroller, the mechanism is broken). That pouch has been hand-searched at lease 25 times, and the contents taken out and put through the machine 3 or 4 times, but there has never been as much as an eyebrow raised at either item. Yet, we have had nail clippers and apple juice confiscated.

Go figure.
 
remcor
Posts: 301
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RE: TSA Missed 90% Of Bombs At Denver Airport

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):

These tests seem to be designed as a PC experiment, to take the element of "racial profiling" out of the equation, because "anyone can be a terrorist." This flies in the face of logic. We already harass 80 year old Japanese tourists for no reason for our protection, but now we are devising tests to reinforce that waste of resources.

I think the debate about whether racial profiling is PC or not is moot. Using racial profiling to single out certain ethnic groups is simply bad security. It's stupid in fact. It assumes that the terrorists cannot recruit anyone from a demographic that does not fit inside the racially profiled box.

So we tell our TSA agents to look for Arab men. Great... then perhaps they might not notice the blonde woman with fair skin (which could either be a ethnic Persian or Uighur, who have light skin, and in the case of Uighurs often green eyes and/or red or blonde hair), or the black african person, or the old asian looking man. How many TSA agents would be able to spot an ethnic Chechen?

Oh, and all of a sudden now Muslims are the ONLY people who we want to keep off of airplanes? There HAVE been domestic hijackings here as well, as well as hijackings and bombings committed by practically every major ethnic group.

So in addition to making patriotic, law-abiding segments of our society feel like second-class citizens, we'd be opening ourselves up to getting kicked in the nuts while protecting our ass.

[Edited 2007-04-03 19:44:41]

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