snn2003
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 7:52 am

United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:33 am

Has anyone seen this video?


I thought it was awful. It bad the F/O look like a dits. The actress just gave up flying when something went wrong, and the controller in the tower panicked when he saw the crash. Why would anyone release this video??
SNN
One way, IAH-RTB please! No return ticket required.
 
WestJetForLife
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:42 am

It's a recreation of a major airline crash. It's from Discovery/National Geographic Channel's "Air Crash Investigation", or "Mayday" up here in Canada.

These people are actors, and the creators of the show are trying to best represent the crash in the most realistic way.

The attitude may not be perfect, but it's a close recreation of the moments before and during the crash. Neither pilot survived the crash, so they cannot tell us how they behaved in the cockpit. It's all best guess.

Cheers,
Nik
I need a drink.
 
EMBQA
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
It bad the F/O look like a dits. The actress just gave up flying when something went wrong,

It's not the best acting, but not far removed from reality. The whole event was over in just seconds when it happened. Very little the flight crew could do.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:44 am

Weird, very ditzy copilot but dont think she could do much
 
graphic
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:51 am

I didn't know Denver was on top of Pikes Peak...
Demand Media fails at life
 
futurecaptain
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:14 am

A few points the writer of the movie missed. I hate to nit-pick, but being in aviation....

Controller: "Cleared for visual approach to runway thirty-five"....No, it's runway three-five.
Controler: "Wind three twenty degrees at sixteen gusting to twenty nine."...No, wind three two zero at one six gust two niner.
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Markhkg
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
Why would anyone release this video??

I think they're trying to base the F/O reaction off the CVR transcript.

http://aviation-safety.net/investigation/cvr/transcripts/cvr_ua585.php

Kind of up to the actress/director to interpret the transcript since the actual audio is very rarely released to the public.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:48 am

That YouTube user has uploaded clips from many of National Geographic's "Air Crash Investigation" and "Seconds From Disaster" shows. He uploaded some new ones yesterday that I need to go watch.
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penguinflies
Posts: 932
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:28 am

I believe this is one of those incidents that the NTSB probed with the 737 rudder-hard over. Final report from ntsb.gov


"NTSB Identification: DCA91MA023 .
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 43000.
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of UNITED AIRLINES
Accident occurred Sunday, March 03, 1991 in COLORADO SPGS, CO
Probable Cause Approval Date: 8/5/1993
Aircraft: BOEING 737-291, registration: N999UA
Injuries: 25 Fatal.

Executive Summary
On March 3, 1991, a United Airlines (UAL) Boeing 737, registration number N999UA, operating as flight 585, was on a scheduled passenger flight from Denver, Colorado, to Colorado Springs, Colorado. Visual meteorological conditions (VMC) prevailed at the time, and the flight was on an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan. Numerous witnesses reported that shortly after completing its turn onto the final approach course to runway 35 at Colorado Springs Municipal Airport (COS), about 0944 Mountain Standard Time, the airplane rolled steadily to the right and pitched nose down until it reached a nearly vertical attitude before hitting the ground in an area known as Widefield Park. The airplane was destroyed, and the 2 flight crewmembers, 3 flight attendants, and 20 passengers aboard were fatally injured.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
A loss of control of the airplane resulting from the movement of the rudder surface to its blowdown limit. The rudder surface most likely deflected in a direction opposite to that commanded by the pilots as a result of a jam of the main rudder power control unit servo valve secondary slide to the servo valve housing offset from its neutral position and overtravel of the primary slide."

quoted directly from ntsb.gov
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:25 am

From the USAir Flight 427 accident report which led to the probable cause on UA 585 -

Although the USAir flight 427 main rudder PCU servo valve had been subjected to
impact forces from the accident and extensive postaccident testing (including repeated
thermal jams), internal examination of the servo valve revealed no evidence of physical
marks that would indicate that a jam had existed. Further, the servo valve slides still
moved freely, and the servo valve was still capable of successfully completing Parker
Hannifin’s acceptance test procedure functional tests.

The Safety Board recognizes that the temperature differential to which the accident
PCU servo valve was exposed under the most severe thermal test conditions was greater
than that expected in normal operation; the hydraulic fluid had not been circulating
through the PCU before the tests began and was therefore not continuously warming the
PCU servo valve housing as it would be in flight if the yaw damper were energized.
Nonetheless, these thermal tests demonstrate that it is possible for the secondary slide of
the servo valve to jam to the valve housing and leave no evidence of physical marks.
These tests also demonstrate that, with the secondary slide thus jammed, it is possible for
the primary slide to overtravel and cause a rudder hardover in the direction opposite to that
commanded without leaving any physical evidence.
 
rootsair
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:45 pm

this 737-200 looks very weird!!
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jeffry747
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:18 pm

The F/O; was that the same guy who played the F/O in the United 232 made for TV movie? It sure looks like him.
C'mon Big B, FLY!
 
pilotaydin
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:25 pm

we've practiced rudder hard overs in the sim....it's a bitch.....the damn thing just locks up to one side and you BETTER be super fast at applying power on the sinking side and pulling out power on the other....

this is one of the main reasons why our SOP has hands and feet at the controls below 10,000 feet  Sad
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:35 pm

Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
the controller in the tower panicked when he saw the crash

Errrm, the Controller shouted "Crash" to alert his colleagues around him, and then slammed on the "CRASH" button which alerts the authorities and scrambles the fire teams.

Where was the panic?

Shamu
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OV735
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 13):
we've practiced rudder hard overs in the sim....it's a bitch.....the damn thing just locks up to one side and you BETTER be super fast at applying power on the sinking side and pulling out power on the other....

this is one of the main reasons why our SOP has hands and feet at the controls below 10,000 feet Sad

Just out of curiosity: hasn't Boeing still repaired the problem?
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 15):
Just out of curiosity: hasn't Boeing still repaired the problem?

I believe most 737 operators around the world opted for the repair, although the NTSB/FAA can only require US registered aircraft to have been fixed.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 15):
Just out of curiosity: hasn't Boeing still repaired the problem?

good question, the RPR, rudder pressure reducer system decreases the rudder pressure in the system to 1000 PSI below 1000AGL i think, so as to avoid a major deflection, some of our 400s are still under the process or probably would have mostly completed this update....it's very sad that somehow or way, someone's death up front and actions make us safer down the years...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
EMBQA
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RE: United 585 Video

Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Snn2003 (Thread starter):
The actress just gave up flying when something went wrong,

The whole event was over in less then 6 seconds. From first indication to impact....6 seconds. That's not even enough time for your brain to understand something is not right and react.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
usair320
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RE: United 585 Video

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 5):
Controller: "Cleared for visual approach to runway thirty-five"....No, it's runway three-five.
Controler: "Wind three twenty degrees at sixteen gusting to twenty nine."...No, wind three two zero at one six gust two niner.

As a pilot I agree that these are definently wrong transmissions.
 
F9Animal
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RE: United 585 Video

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:23 am

I would guess that anyone would have different reactions when they are about to die. I certainly would use every curse word known to me if I was in that situation. What else can you do? Really, it was an unfortunate incident.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: United 585 Video

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:47 am

who cares how the actors or actress played the character, the object of the show is not to show what the pilots look like or talk like, it's more of a way to show the complex environment, if they had said niner whatever instead of ninety something, it wouldn't make any difference to someone who is avia-ignorant....

the important parts are the events and how things changed since them....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: United 585 Video

Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 5):
A few points the writer of the movie missed. I hate to nit-pick, but being in aviation....

Controller: "Cleared for visual approach to runway thirty-five"....No, it's runway three-five.
Controler: "Wind three twenty degrees at sixteen gusting to twenty nine."...No, wind three two zero at one six gust two niner.

As a pilot I often here about 50% of the time AC or WS pilots calling it runway sixteen rather then one-six or runway twenty-six right instead of two-six, even tower guys often call it twenty-six rather then two-six, I hear it on the radio all the time. Not saying it is right but perhaps they are trying to accurately portray what happened. Also as far as niner goes here in Canada it is 75% of the time just pronounced nine.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
AceMcCool99
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:58 pm

RE: United 585 Video

Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:47 am

I have seen many videos of that type. They are meant to portray what happened and in no way represent the real emotions that took place at the time. It's a recreation of the events and although factual, us in the business must take some of the sensationalization with a grain of salt.

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 18):
Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 5):
Controller: "Cleared for visual approach to runway thirty-five"....No, it's runway three-five.
Controler: "Wind three twenty degrees at sixteen gusting to twenty nine."...No, wind three two zero at one six gust two niner.

As a pilot I agree that these are definently wrong transmissions

As an Air Traffic Controller, I agree as well. Fact is, not everyone adheres to standard R/T and sometimes deviations will lead to incidents/accidents. We could get a whole new thread started with that one.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: United 585 Video

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:48 am

May all those souls rest in peace.

I thought it was a good portrayal overall. Niner? Why not oner, twoer, threer etc... Some day I hope to land on runway 99.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:54 am

RE: United 585 Video

Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 21):

Wow, I can't ever remember hearing a runway sixteen or anything of the sort. The radio here has always seemed very professional, giving runway numbers and winds using standard terminology.

As for niner, I'll give you that. I'd say about 20% of the time I hear it said nine. The other 80% it is niner.



Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 23):
Some day I hope to land on runway 99.

Well, I do believe you will have to go out and build your own runway for that. Hope the FAA never comes and takes a look at it. Good luck.  Wink
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