LHStarAlliance
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Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:03 pm

Hello ,

Some days ago I was at LHR and on my way back to FRA at night I saw at least 15 747s of BA

What are they doing at LHR if you search for one LH 747 in FRA after 23:00 you´ll not find even one . Also many 777s .

Whats the reason for this ??

Thanks for all answers,

Konstantin
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shamrock350
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:11 pm

It's their main hub so most of the fleet is there and they have lots of 747s and 777s. In fact, LHR is dominated by BA aircraft and in one year they will all be pushed to the west at T5!
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 1):
It's their main hub so most of the fleet is there and they have lots of 747s and 777s. In fact, LHR is dominated by BA aircraft and in one year they will all be pushed to the west at T5!

I know that , FRA is also the main Hub of LH and all 747s / 340s / 330s are flying .

Having tons of 747s and 777s at LHR is dead capital .

Is this maybe mismanagement ?
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donder10
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:33 pm

What time were you at LHR?
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting Donder10 (Reply 3):

between 21:00 and 22:30
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EZYAirbus
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
I saw at least 15 747s of BA

They have 57 747-400s in service

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 2):
Is this maybe mismanagement ?

Not at all, still 42 in the air somewhere earning lots of money for BA

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theginge
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:13 pm

Some of those 747-400's seen will be in for overnight maintenance, others will have arrived in the evening and will be the first departures out the next moring. There is no mismanagement, BA 747's don't just sit on the ground doing nothing all the time. As BA have 57 there is always going to be a small percentage on maintenance. Also for example some on some days there are more BA 747-400 flights than others as well.
 
Norcal773
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:18 pm

I think the same goes for FRA but I think there's a cutoff time for arrivals at LHR meaning they'd either have to be at LHR by a certain time of the night or else not until morning.

Wait until you visit NRT, there's always a TON of JAL 747's at NRT, not to mention NW's!
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A388
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:32 pm

Correct, it has nothing to do with mismanagement at all. BA also has a bigger 747 fleet compared to LH as far as I know which might explain you will see more 747s parked at LHR compared to FRA. KL also has quite a few 747s parked at AMS overnight. As Theginge pointed out, the 747s you saw are the first ones to depart LHR between 05:00 and 07:00. What you saw is just fleet management, combined with local regulations (environment) and maintenance, nothing more and nothing less.

A388
 
spencer
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 7):
I think there's a cutoff time for arrivals at LHR

Yes, correct, there's a curfew at LHR. It's something like 23:30-04:30.
Spencer.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:36 pm

After 2100 BA has the following Longhaul departures from T4

2115 031 HKG B744
2115 057 JNB B744
2115 063 EBB B767
2125 011 SIN B744
2135 015 SIN/SYD B777
2140 109 DXB B777
2145 247 GRU/GIG B744
2150 199 BOM B777
2200 009 BKK/SYD B744
2215 027 HKG B744
2215 083 ABV B777
2230 163 TLV B767
2230 157 KWI B777

Thats 13 aircraft waiting to depart at 2100.
 
cobra27
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:50 pm

LHR is such a big airport, 15 747 doesn't surprises me one bit
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 10):

All A/Cs where waiting on the apron , and 15 was a very cautious number , it´s safe to say that at least 20+ A/Cs were waiting .

Quoting A388 (Reply 8):

At FRA there´s not even 1 LH 747 parked . Maybe some in the Technik Hangers

Quoting Theginge (Reply 6):
others will have arrived in the evening and will be the first departures out the next moring.

This sounds as the most logical answers for me ...
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cobra27
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:12 am

I think that KLM has the most usage of 747's around 18 hours a day, but I am not sure.

But at other ports there are also lot of BA 747 and JAL 747.
BA has also more than 40 777's. One of the greatest widebody fleet in the world. Am almost sure they will expand it with 748 or A380 and A350/787
 
A388
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 13):
I think that KLM has the most usage of 747's around 18 hours a day, but I am not sure.

Our fvery respected member HB-IWC has all the details on aircraft usage. He always gives very interesting details on the aircraft usage of airlines and also compares them.

So HB-IWC please fill us in on these details.

A388
 
jfk777
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:31 am

Given BA's nature to serve many intercontinental destination double and tripple times daily, its no surprise they fly so many 777 and 744's. Most cities in North America & Asia served by BA from LHR are flown to 14 or more times weekly. Many BA 777 and 744 are at LHR in the middle of the day since most flights from Asia and America arrive in the morning and depart in the afternoon.
 
cirrusdriver
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:06 am

I would guess that a portion of it has to do with the maximization of precious landing slots at LHR with aircraft that can carry more pax and freight?
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:23 pm

British Airways is one of the largest operators of 747's in the world. LHR is their main British hub. Virtually every 747 they operate passes through LHR.

LHR is also the main international airport in the UK. Airlines from all over the world fly their flagship aircraft, which in many cases are the 747 aircraft, to London. It "shows them off" by presenting new, modern aircraft in one of the premier cities of the world.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:32 pm

Wow, its shocking to hear that LHR has a curfew. Its hard to believe one of the major transportation hubs in the world has a curfew.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Experimental
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:51 pm

When I left LHR last Thursday morning on BA from T4 we turned away from the terminal behind 3 747-400. later on it became apparent there were a further two behind us. 6 BA 747-400 must have looked fantastic to the aircraft holding on the other side of the runway.

I was at a loss however at deciding where they were all going at about 11:15. We were going to BAH (slightly delayed), I know there were JFK, DEL and IAD flights leaving. Any Ideas?
 
Norcal773
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 18):
Wow, its shocking to hear that LHR has a curfew. Its hard to believe one of the major transportation hubs in the world has a curfew.

You can Thank the godamn people who complain about the noise. Nothing is worse than landing at LHR at 6am then wait forever for the tug to get there so that you can be towed to your gate. My issue has always been, you can't tell me a plane taxiing will make more noise than a plane that has just landed and deployed reverse thrusters.  boggled 

I believe FRA has the same BS too.
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LHR777
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting Experimental (Reply 19):
I was at a loss however at deciding where they were all going at about 11:15. We were going to BAH (slightly delayed), I know there were JFK, DEL and IAD flights leaving. Any Ideas?

Lets see - around that time, you could have a couple of JFK, a LAX, MIA, BOM, ORD, YYZ.....

I seriously doubt we had 20+ 747-400's sitting around on the ramp after 9pm. Overnight aircraft consists of maybe 4-5 max, out of a fleet of 57 747's. We do have a lot of 747 departures between 9pm and 10.30pm. Also, depending on the day, there may have been issues with loading, re-fuelling, crew transport, cargo delays or any number of other factors that delayed a bank of departures.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 20):
Nothing is worse than landing at LHR at 6am then wait forever for the tug to get there so that you can be towed to your gate. My issue has always been, you can't tell me a plane taxiing will make more noise than a plane that has just landed and deployed reverse thrusters.

Use of reverse thrust is banned before 7am. Aircraft now self-taxi on to the victor pier at Terminal 4 between 6am and 7am. T4 gates 2 and 3 still require tugs, due to the proximity of local housing to these gates. Aircraft also self-taxi onto Terminal 1 gates in the morning.
 
Norcal773
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 21):
Use of reverse thrust is banned before 7am. Aircraft now self-taxi on to the victor pier at Terminal 4 between 6am and 7am. T4 gates 2 and 3 still require tugs, due to the proximity of local housing to these gates. Aircraft also self-taxi onto Terminal 1 gates in the morning.

Thanx for the info. Didn't know reverse thrust is banned in the mornings. Out of curiosity, what happens if runway is wet and an aircraft comes in heavy absolutely needing to use reverse thrust?
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LHRman
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:39 pm

Its not banned.. thats a bit of extremity. The actual statement on the charts is..

Reverse Thrust
Avoid use of reverse thrust between 2330-0600LT except for safety reasons.

Therefore, more often than not the early morning arrivals will not need it because they don't have to get off the runway so quick therefore they can rollout for longer (if landing the 9's BA aircraft won't wanna get off til either S3/4 if landing on 09R or A5/4 if landing on the L).

A big note is that "except for safety reasons" eg: Weather conditions mean that the use of reverse thrust is advisable (precipitation/low vis), or something on the aircraft maybe u/s.

The stands that require a tug out/in at this moment is the Maintainence area, Stands 401/402/403/463/461 & the V Apron. Which for those not all that familiar are the stands at the back left of T4. This is once again between the hours of 2330 -0630LT.

Hope this clears up the matter..
Dave P

P.s I am currently looking into all 74 & 72 departures after 2030 and will try and find out how many at any one time will have been on the ground.

[Edited 2007-04-09 13:41:10]
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LHR777
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 22):
Out of curiosity, what happens if runway is wet and an aircraft comes in heavy absolutely needing to use reverse thrust?

I've often wandered about this! I'd imagine idle reverse, max braking, then reverse thrust if deemed absolutely necessary.

I think it's something like this - Commanders of aircraft are requested to avoid the use of reverse thrust after landing,
consistent with the safe operation of the aircraft, between 2330 and 0600 hours

Meaning, IMHO, if the safety of the landing is in question, then reverse thrust can be used.
 
planesarecool
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 22):
Out of curiosity, what happens if runway is wet and an aircraft comes in heavy absolutely needing to use reverse thrust?

Then it'll use reverse thrust. A noise curfew cannot come in the way of safety, and if it's absolutely necessary then it will be used.

Although there is a curfew in place, it doesn't do so much to restrict departures and arrivals throughout the night. The airport remains 'open' and very rarely will a flight be denied take off because it has been delayed until after 23:29. One example would be last Wednesday's VS200, which was due to depart at 2230, but didn't depart until nearly 3am.
 
BCALBOY
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 25):
Although there is a curfew in place, it doesn't do so much to restrict departures and arrivals throughout the night. The airport remains 'open' and very rarely will a flight be denied take off because it has been delayed until after 23:29. One example would be last Wednesday's VS200, which was due to depart at 2230, but didn't depart until nearly 3am.

I think it does !

Very few operations can be planned to op in the 'Night Jet ' period.
Some carriers have historic rights particularly for early morning arrivals from Far East/Oz and US East Coast.
The established carriers have a quota of NJMs which they can use as required to cover delays/early arrivals
but this is policed and when its used upyou can-t operate during this period.


Towards the end of a season when NJMs are running out Carriers actually reschedule for temporary periods to 'save' NJMs , and on an adhoc basis will issue directives to Aircraft Commanders that they shud not land before 0602,
aircraft ready to depart are actually held overseas to comply with this.

On delayed departures , if they haven-t a NJM they have to nightstop ....I-ve seen a Bmed 321 and an Air India ( full 747) nightstop in the last week or so due missed Night Jet Ban and BA often cancel delayed Shorthaul if
it would infringe NJB.

Occasionally in extreme disruption , the ban is varied to assist airlines in clearing back-logs, but that is
only in extreme situations.

Mind you , other European airports have similar situations particularly in Switzerland , Germany and Netherlands !
 
planesarecool
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 26):

What i was trying to say is that although there is a night curfew limiting departures between 23:29-06:00, it doesn't mean that absolutely no flights can depart within this - and what you are saying is actually backing this up. In the past week or so, when those two flights were forced to night-stop, around 30 or so have been allowed to depart after 23:29, having been delayed.

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 26):
Occasionally in extreme disruption , the ban is varied to assist airlines in clearing back-logs, but that is
only in extreme situations.

Such as the fog in December, where over 150 flights departed within the curfew over 3-4 days.
 
BCALBOY
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:14 am

Yes but it is a big restriction.

Bmi can-t decide to improve utilisation by doing a 2330 to PMI returning @ 0530.

Yr post suggested NJB had no impact .....it has major impact @ LHR for carriers !
 
adizzy
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:20 am

I am going to guess and say that this happens since LHR is the home of BA!

Also.....a huge proportion of Long-haul flights to distant areas of the world maybe all leave very close to one another! here is BOS the evening is full of BIG PLANES all departing minutes from each other.....all our international flights to Europe leave around the same time!
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 5):
still 42 in the air somewhere

or on the ground elsewhere ...

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 17):
British Airways is one of the largest operators of 747's in the world. LHR is their main British hub. Virtually every 747 they operate passes through LHR.

Actually, you can remove "virtually" - every 744 in BA's fleet is based at LHR. Every flight a BA 744 flies either starts or ends at LHR. There are tag-ons like SIN-SYD or GRU-GIG, but these are continuations of direct flights to/from LHR (same flight number)

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 17):
LHR is also the main international airport in the UK. Airlines from all over the world fly their flagship aircraft, which in many cases are the 747 aircraft, to London. It "shows them off" by presenting new, modern aircraft in one of the premier cities of the world.

No. Airlines don't spend so much money daily to fly a 747 across an ocean just to "show off" a shiny (??) plane. Airlines fly planes on particular routes because doing so earns the airline a profit. In the case of LHR, which serves one of the world's largest and most prosperous cities, that will often mean a big plane can be filled with higher-yielding traffic.
 
planesarecool
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 28):
Yes but it is a big restriction.

Bmi can-t decide to improve utilisation by doing a 2330 to PMI returning @ 0530.

Yr post suggested NJB had no impact .....it has major impact @ LHR for carriers !

 Confused

I'm not talking about airlines scheduling flights within the curfew, i'm talking about delayed flights departing within the curfew, which are rarely restricted. Read what i said:

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 25):
The airport remains 'open' and very rarely will a flight be denied take off because it has been delayed until after 23:29
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:50 am

Isn't it, that they aren't banned from taking off after 22:59, but get fined, maybe I'm wrong, but I've always understood it was that if an aircraft which was 'too loud' departed after 22:59, the airline could/would be fined.

Quoting LHRman (Reply 23):
The stands that require a tug out/in at this moment is the Maintenance area

Yup, no aircrafts can taxi under their own power anywhere within the engineering base. The only place you'll see planes powering up in the engineering area is the engine test bay by the TBA hangar. On a completely different note, if anyone's interested, a UA 777 was at the BA hangars yesterday (Sunday).

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 24):
I've often wandered about this! I'd imagine idle reverse, max braking, then reverse thrust if deemed absolutely necessary.

I think it's something like this - Commanders of aircraft are requested to avoid the use of reverse thrust after landing,
consistent with the safe operation of the aircraft, between 2330 and 0600 hours

Meaning, IMHO, if the safety of the landing is in question, then reverse thrust can be used

That's basically it. However, theoretically, even if the pilot uses trust reversers when it's not necessary, he'd only get told off if a local resident complains.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
LHR777
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RE: Why So Many 747 At LHR?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting LHRman (Reply 23):
Its not banned.. thats a bit of extremity. The actual statement on the charts is..

Reverse Thrust
Avoid use of reverse thrust between 2330-0600LT except for safety reasons.

You are of course, correct. I suppose we just refer to it at work as the 'night jet ban', consisting of 'take-off and landing ban' and 'reverse-thrust ban'. Of course, in reality, none of these are 'banned'!

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