phishphan70
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How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:45 am

hey all! i asked about this in another thread, but no one responded...and if this is posted somewhere else and someone could point me in the right direction, i'd be very thankful! but i am wondering how many 747LCF's we are going to see in Boeing's fleet to handle the rapid production of an aircraft? and is the LCF going to do all of the lifting for the 787, or will other airlines carry cargo for the production? i know JAL and a few other airlines have moved incomplete parts for the 787, but i am curious if this will continue durring production? thanks in advance!
 
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iahcsr
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:52 am

IIRC three will be produced initially... at least one more to follow at some later point.  twocents   scratchchin 
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phishphan70
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 1):
IIRC three will be produced initially... at least one more to follow at some later point.

so this leads me to believe Boeing intends on moving all of the cargo for the 787 on four aircraft. for a company that said it should have atleast ten planes done every month, this seems like a small number to me. do you know any more info about comercial companies carrying cargo for the 78?
 
wedgetail737
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:27 am

There are four planned with one additional as optional, I believe. Boeing has also chosen to use an AN-124 from Volga-Dnepr on an ad-hoc basis as a stop-gap...in case something goes wrong.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:43 am

The initial order was for 3. 2 more were planned for "if needed" but no official updates on them. My guess is they will have to build the 4th soon, but I have not heard of them getting a 744 passenger frame to do so.

I sometimes wonder if they will not try to just use the least they can till the 748 is in production and then send one or two of those over for conversion since the 737RS program will likely need a couple...
 
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iahcsr
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
do you know any more info about commercial companies carrying cargo for the 78?

 sorry  no .. What you see is all I got... However, I'm certain other members will be providing more info soon...  biggrin 
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MCIGuy
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:56 am

Boeong recently said they'd use four 744 LCFs.

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
Boeing has also chosen to use an AN-124 from Volga-Dnepr on an ad-hoc basis as a stop-gap...in case something goes wrong.

Yeah, and I'm not sure about that one. I'd imagine they could move smaller parts, but the fuse sections would fit, would they?
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phishphan70
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 3):
Wedgetail737



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
XT6Wagon



Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 5):
IAHcsr



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 6):
MCIGuy

thanks for all the info guys!!!

Phish
 
trevd
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
The initial order was for 3. 2 more were planned for "if needed" but no official updates on them. My guess is they will have to build the 4th soon, but I have not heard of them getting a 744 passenger frame to do so.

I sometimes wonder if they will not try to just use the least they can till the 748 is in production and then send one or two of those over for conversion since the 737RS program will likely need a couple...

As an update, Boeing has already committed the 4th aircraft to the program and have already purchased the aircraft from MAS.

The first one was a ex-Air China a/c they took in trade (sister-ship to the VIP a/c flown by Saudi investor prince al-wahleed), the next 2 were bought from China Airlines with one already converted. Understand Boeing has an option on another a/c from MAS for a potential 5th LCF. At the rate the 787 is selling, they very well may need it !!
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 2):
so this leads me to believe Boeing intends on moving all of the cargo for the 787 on four aircraft. for a company that said it should have atleast ten planes done every month, this seems like a small number to me.

Wings = RJGG - KPAE
S43, S45 = RJGG - KCHS
S44, S46 = LIBG - KCHS
S47, S48 = KCHS - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
S43-46 = KCHS - KPAE
S41 = KIAB - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
Horizontal Stab = Italy - KPAE (not sure if this one has to use an LCF, anybody know?)

So the lower bound is ~6 round trips or 12 LCF movements per 787 frame. Assume conservatively 1 movement per day for each LCF. That's 30 movements / month x 4 LCF's = 120 movements per month, or 10 frames / month.

Four LCF's is a number that checks out pretty well, on the back of a napkin at least.

(edit: corrected KPAE for KBFI, oops)

[Edited 2007-04-09 08:41:20]
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 9):
Four LCF's is a number that checks out pretty well, on the back of a napkin at least.

I think when full production hits they will likely be able to save some movements by sending 2 complete ship sets of wings in one trip.

I don't know what else they will do to create slack, since the originally plan was to have one LCF be idle (IE spare) for most the month. They I guess were expecting more MX than a normal cargo 747, and they wanted to make very sure there was one laying around to pick up the slack if one needed to be taken out of service for whatever reason.

Clearly they can't run them all at 100% 12 months out of the year.
 
Stealthz
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 10):
They I guess were expecting more MX than a normal cargo 747, and they wanted to make very sure there was one laying around to pick up the slack if one needed to be taken out of service for whatever reason.

Not sure they will be that much more MX intensive than a normal 744F but if you are operating a normal freighter and have issues there are lots of people to call to take up the slack.
If you are operating LCF and one goes down you can't just call Polar or someone and get another one in a few hours.

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phishphan70
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 9):
Wings = RJGG - KPAE
S43, S45 = RJGG - KCHS
S44, S46 = LIBG - KCHS
S47, S48 = KCHS - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
S43-46 = KCHS - KPAE
S41 = KIAB - KPAE (probably two of these per flight)
Horizontal Stab = Italy - KPAE (not sure if this one has to use an LCF, anybody know?)

So the lower bound is ~6 round trips or 12 LCF movements per 787 frame. Assume conservatively 1 movement per day for each LCF. That's 30 movements / month x 4 LCF's = 120 movements per month, or 10 frames / month.

Four LCF's is a number that checks out pretty well, on the back of a napkin at least.

checks out with me, makes me think that some guys at boeing did the same kind of math or something... Wink

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 11):
If you are operating LCF and one goes down you can't just call Polar or someone and get another one in a few hours.

in reply 3 in this thread, it says boeing has choses a AN-124 just incase...but that still doesn't seem like an attractive option for boeing to need to use everytime a plane has a machanical delay, or goes into matinance for a day, i think we'll see some more LCF's as time goes on
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:10 pm

Quoting Phishphan70 (Reply 12):
in reply 3 in this thread, it says boeing has choses a AN-124 just incase...but that still doesn't seem like an attractive option for boeing to need to use everytime a plane has a machanical delay, or goes into matinance for a day, i think we'll see some more LCF's as time goes on

I'm quite sure the AN124 CAN'T take barrel sections.

Now the beluga might depending on how much bigger the shipping structure around the barrels is... but dunno if Airbus would rent one out... lol.

Basicly it very much pays to have a LCF sitting around doing nothing "just incase" since the penalties for delays is high enough that it quickly pays off if it avoids having to pay off a couple of late planes a year.
 
brendows
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 13):
I'm quite sure the AN124 CAN'T take barrel sections.

Correct, the internal height of the cargo compartment is lower than the height of the barrels.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: How Many LCF's Are We Gonna See?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 10):
I think when full production hits they will likely be able to save some movements by sending 2 complete ship sets of wings in one trip.

I doubt it. The wings are pretty thick at the root, and they are the heaviest pieces carried by the LCF.