UAEflyer
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A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:26 pm

According to the database here, i can see that the A380 is under heavy testing in Germany only, we all know that LH is the second largest customer (hopefully i am not mistaken), LH took the aircraft to USA, at least once a week the aircraft goes to FRA or MUC.
With the largest order from EK, why we only saw the A380 only one time in DXB? any possibility to do a LHR (for example) trip with EK staff and passengers?
SQ didn't ask for a trip like LH!
Does it mean that LH is special to Airbus  Wink
 
Beaucaire
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:03 pm

The boss of Lufthansa,Mayrhuber ,said yesterday to the large magazine "Der Spiegel" ,that the LH pilots who flew the A380 are absolutely thrilled with the aircraft's performance.
Following Mayrhuber, the aircraft behaves astonishingly ,flies very stable but has the responsiveness of a sports-car.
He is convinced the aircraft will sell very well once entered in Service ...
To Mayrhuber the aircraft fulfills all contractual promises for Lufthansa,exept the late deliveries.
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Thorben
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:17 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
we all know that LH is the second largest customer (hopefully i am not mistaken)

They were until QF and SQ ordered more. Current top 4:

EK: 43 (+2 from ILFC)
QF: 20
SQ: 19
LH: 15

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):

Yes, LH is really satisfied with the A380. Why wouldn't they? All the problems are coming from the manufacturing process, not the aircraft's performance.
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Francoflier
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
the LH pilots who flew the A380 are absolutely thrilled with the aircraft's performance.

So far so good.

Unfortunately, the only performance that interests operators, and that's operating costs, won't be known until the a/c enters service.
Although, so far, all the signs are out there that they will be on target.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
pelican
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:10 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 3):

Unfortunately, the only performance that interests operators, and that's operating costs, won't be known until the a/c enters service.

Well, he also said that the A380 fulfills all contractual promises (as Beaucaire posted) and it will be a big leap. Which is from an operators standpoint a more important statement.

pelican
 
jasond
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
The boss of Lufthansa,Mayrhuber ,said yesterday to the large magazine "Der Spiegel" ,that the LH pilots who flew the A380 are absolutely thrilled with the aircraft's performance.
Following Mayrhuber, the aircraft behaves astonishingly ,flies very stable but has the responsiveness of a sports-car.
He is convinced the aircraft will sell very well once entered in Service ...
To Mayrhuber the aircraft fulfills all contractual promises for Lufthansa,exept the late deliveries.

Didn't really answer UAEflyer's question though did it? His point being (if I am correct) that LH seems to be over represented in the A380 exposure stakes when other operators have a more substantial order on the books.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:45 pm

Quoting Jasond (Reply 5):
Didn't really answer UAEflyer's question though did it? His point being (if I am correct) that LH seems to be over represented in the A380 exposure stakes when other operators have a more substantial order on the books.

Maybe, but first of all, LH was a big customer for all Airbus planes so far, with the exception of the A318. Additionally, LH is German, so I am pretty sure that AF and LH do have a very good connection to Airbus.

Furthermore, FRA - JFK is one of the routes which the A380 really was designed for, so this was a very realistic test. While DXB will see lots of A380s, this airport will handle the A380 without too many problems. Older airports like JFK and FRA, however, might have more problems, so those need to be testet first.

All of that is only speculation, of course, but bear in mind that LH also brought the FAs for the evacuation of the A380.
 
overcast
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:45 pm

Do you think this has something to do with LH being the first European operator of RR powered A380. I'm sure when the EA version goes through route proving it will either or both AF and EK being involved.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:23 pm

Wouldn't it just be pragmatism? If I'm not mistaken, the interior fitting was done in Hamburg, and LH just happens to be based in the same country (and a client of the A380 of course).
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keesje
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:25 pm

I think tests going on in cooperation with LH iso of EK despite having ordered less aircraft have to do with the airlines capabilities & existing extensive contacts with Airbus. Ofcourse EK could do them too, if they hired the people to do it for them  Wink

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PanHAM
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:30 pm

The reason for that could be that LH has invested a lot of work already, the carrier has already today a number of qualified A380 pilots, at least one technical team of about 20 familiar with the A380, has cooperated with Airbus on technical and operational matters. In addition to that, Fraport has done the same on the operations side, has A380 gates ready in place, the plabe could come here tomrrow and would be turned around on 90 minutes if required. An A380 maintenance base is under construction in FRA, in short, both companoies are most advanced and ready for the 380.
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musapapaya
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 1):
Following Mayrhuber, the aircraft behaves astonishingly ,flies very stable but has the responsiveness of a sports-car.
He is convinced the aircraft will sell very well once entered in Service ...
To Mayrhuber the aircraft fulfills all contractual promises for Lufthansa,exept the late deliveries.



Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Yes, LH is really satisfied with the A380. Why wouldn't they? All the problems are coming from the manufacturing process, not the aircraft's performance.

I am just glad to hear this. What about Tim Clarks comments about the plane being few tonnes overweight? Which guy should we trust? Mayrhuber or Clark?
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 11):
I am just glad to hear this. What about Tim Clarks comments about the plane being few tonnes overweight? Which guy should we trust? Mayrhuber or Clark?

Both statements maybe perfectly correct, given the way contract guarantees are written. Why not trust Mayrhuber and Clark?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
musapapaya
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 12):
Why not trust Mayrhuber and Clark?

I wish I could but sometimes I just get too tired about Clark who is so noisy all over the media. I love the plane though and I love to fly on one asap.
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
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Francoflier
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 11):
Which guy should we trust? Mayrhuber or Clark?

Neither. I'll believe the figures only.

[Edited 2007-04-09 15:05:53]
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UAEflyer
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting Jasond (Reply 5):
Didn't really answer UAEflyer's question though did it? His point being (if I am correct) that LH seems to be over represented in the A380 exposure stakes when other operators have a more substantial order on the books.

 checkmark 

I still didn't get a proper answer, Could EK or QR ask for a ride to LHR or CDG ?
 
Beaucaire
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:01 am

There are all clients pilot's being taken for rides and training-flights permanantly..
Issu with LH is their historically strong engineering presence in Toulouse.They have since many years set up relations with R&D at Airbus,influencing the specs of many new aircraft.Airbus does trust LH-technics and maybe they have chosen an aircraft with engines different than EK,so there are less aircraft available for training and line-proving flights than with a specific engine-set up.
I would immagine EK have sent their engineers to Toulouse since the very beginning and their competence is not questioned.
But their track-record as "tester" for new aircraft might be less developed than with LH or Air France.
I'm pretty sure that had they requested line-proving flights from Dubai to any destination,Airbus would not have denied.But have they asked ???
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breiz
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 8):
Wouldn't it just be pragmatism? If I'm not mistaken, the interior fitting was done in Hamburg, and LH just happens to be based in the same country (and a client of the A380 of course).

Rightly so. LH cabin personnel is the easiest to get in relation with cabin testing.

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
Does it mean that LH is special to Airbus

And yes, LH is special to Airbus as the flag carrier of one of the founding countries. LH was also behind the design of the A340.

It is also worth noting that despite this apparent close relations between Airbus and LH, no A380 has yet been displayed in full LH cs (to the disappointment of many last year).
 
UAEflyer
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 16):
There are all clients pilot's being taken for rides and training-flights permanantly..
Issu with LH is their historically strong engineering presence in Toulouse.They have since many years set up relations with R&D at Airbus,influencing the specs of many new aircraft.Airbus does trust LH-technics and maybe they have chosen an aircraft with engines different than EK,so there are less aircraft available for training and line-proving flights than with a specific engine-set up.
I would imagine EK have sent their engineers to Toulouse since the very beginning and their competence is not questioned.
But their track-record as "tester" for new aircraft might be less developed than with LH or Air France.
I'm pretty sure that had they requested line-proving flights from Dubai to any destination,Airbus would not have denied.But have they asked ???

well, if it is regarding the presence in TLS, EK is their since Airbus the last delay announcement from Airbus.
If EK asked for route proving and Airbus refused, i can assure that His Excellency Mr. Tim Clark wouldn't stay quiet

Quoting Breiz (Reply 17):
It is also worth noting that despite this apparent close relations between Airbus and LH, no A380 has yet been displayed in full LH cs (to the disappointment of many last year).

I can understand from this that the trust issue between EK and Airbus is in its worst cases, because EK said that we will send our team to TLS and we will get report from them not Airbus about the status of the A380 program (they said the program not their A380s)
 
Sangas
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 13):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 12):
Why not trust Mayrhuber and Clark?

I wish I could but sometimes I just get too tired about Clark who is so noisy all over the media

I'm not convinced Mr. Mayrhuber's tendency to repeat "Forgeardian-like" platitudes and/or rationalisations regarding the troubled A380 program make him any more credible than the less sanguine Mr. Clark. Mayrhuber is merely at the opposite extreme from Clark in his public assessments of Airbus' failed execution of the development/industrialisation phase of the A380 program by consistantly downplaying the impact of the program delays upon LH.
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UAEflyer
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting Sangas (Reply 19):
I'm not convinced Mr. Mayrhuber's tendency to repeat "Forgeardian-like" platitudes and/or rationalisations regarding the troubled A380 program make him any more credible than the less sanguine Mr. Clark. Mayrhuber is merely at the opposite extreme from Clark in his public assessments of Airbus' failed execution of the development/industrialisation phase of the A380 program by consistantly downplaying the impact of the program delays upon LH.

Maybe Clark is winging because he have the largest stake!!
 
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OA260
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
I think tests going on in cooperation with LH iso of EK despite having ordered less aircraft have to do with the airlines capabilities & existing extensive contacts with Airbus. Ofcourse EK could do them too, if they hired the people to do it for them

Keesje is that you in the cockpit???
 
cba
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
EK: 43 (+2 from ILFC)

The big question: what the heck does EK plan to do with 45 of these birds? In the age of ultra-long nonstops, is the demand for traffic in and out of the gulf that substantial?
 
LHFADUS
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:20 am

There are several reasons why LH is the "chosen one" among other A380 customers.

1. As already mentioned by others, their "traditional" connection with Airbus: they've helped in developing several busses. Aside of that, they own a large number of busses themselves, from all that Airbus has/had to offer, except the A318 - which leads us to

2. LH's maintenance-capabilities

3. LH's connection with FRA, a (future) major A380-hub, which can very well represent other "older" airports, originally not concipated for aircraft the size of the the A380 - unlike DXB for example

4. LH's staff, which is already, partially well prepared for the A380. LH has several pilots working for Airbus in a sideline, participating in tests, training LH's pilots. The cabin-crew, which performed the evacuation-tests, had to aquire a type-rating for the A380, which no other airline has done, as far as I know. Already having the type-rating, I guess the LH cabin-crew was the only choice for Airbus to "test" their new bird under realistic conditions, on a real flight, with "real" passengers.

Airbus' other option would have been doing those route-provings on their own. But why not make it all much more realistic, preferably with a customer who can fulfill all the criterias mentioned above?
 
GBan
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting Sangas (Reply 19):
I'm not convinced Mr. Mayrhuber's tendency to repeat "Forgeardian-like" platitudes and/or rationalisations regarding the troubled A380 program make him any more credible than the less sanguine Mr. Clark. Mayrhuber is merely at the opposite extreme from Clark in his public assessments of Airbus' failed execution of the development/industrialisation phase of the A380 program by consistantly downplaying the impact of the program delays upon LH

Do you have quotes? I'm just wondering - can't remember to have heard any public statement downplaying the impact of the program delays. Mayrhuber (and other LH officials) repeatedly said that they are very happy with the A380's performance, but I think they did not publicly comment the impact of the delays. I'm sure in that respect they have something to say to Airbus which might not sound too nice...
 
Sangas
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting GBan (Reply 24):
Do you have quotes? I'm just wondering - can't remember to have heard any public statement downplaying the impact of the program delays.

"A380 hold-ups brushed aside"

Quote:
...Mayrhuber brushes off concerns about the news that the programme would see further delays as “teething problems”, pointing out that other major aircraft programmes have suffered these too. “We have to allow for such issues. Obviously it is better if there are no delays, but we have to manage it.”

The extra setbacks in the programme will not have any impact on Lufthansa’s evaluation of whether to buy more of the aircraft, Mayrhuber says. “We buy aircraft on a long-term basis. We’ve seen teething problems on the [Boeing] 747-100, -200 and -400, [McDonnell Douglas] DC-10 and [Airbus] A340 programmes: that’s not something that would have an impact on long-term decisions.”

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...5/a380-hold-ups-brushed-aside.html

Personally, I find characterising what's transpired so far with the A380 program as "teething problems" similar to prior experience with other aircraft both historically inaccurate as well as incredibly Pollyannish.
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autothrust
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:24 pm

Quoting Sangas (Reply 25):
Personally, I find characterising what's transpired so far with the A380 program as "teething problems" similar to prior experience with other aircraft both historically inaccurate as well as incredibly Pollyannish.

Through the delays, Airbus got a long time to test the plane for theething problems unlike any other plane, so im pretty sure Airbus will deliver a very mature plane because its in their interest.Your post isnt proving anything, LH just doesnt hope to get the A380 later.
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UAEflyer
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 22):
The big question: what the heck does EK plan to do with 45 of these birds? In the age of ultra-long nonstops, is the demand for traffic in and out of the gulf that substantial?

we are not into this subject, i personally tired from discussing what would Emirates do with their 45 birds, my advice to you is to wait and see what would happen.
 
Sangas
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 26):
Through the delays, Airbus got a long time to test the plane for theething problems unlike any other plane, so im pretty sure Airbus will deliver a very mature plane because its in their interest.

I'm not sure I subscribe to the theory that it's a foregone conclusion that the supplemental testing required to sort-out the "wiring harness imbroglio/industrialization fiasco" necessarily translates into higher operational reliability/minimization of "teething problems" once MSN003 and other early ships are delivered to operators and enter service. Seems to me that "teething problems," etc., despite rigorous pre-delivery testing, often don't become apparent until commercial service actually commences.
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Burkhard
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RE: A380 Testing In Germany

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:02 pm

Lufthansa offers these services to Airbus ,and out of their own interest. Lufthansa is not only the airline, Lufhansa Technik and other subsidiaries have large interest to start with A380 operations asap to gain competence - to be able to offer the services to other airlines when needed. So while currently this means an investment, it can be expected to turn out on the longer basis. It did so with the A340s at least, where you can see many non Lufthansa 340s in Lufthansa hangars.