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1337Delta764
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Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:58 am

How come the majority of 777s in service do not feature personal air vents? Yes, I know there are a few exceptions, such as Delta, Emirates, and Air Canada. However, the 777s that do feature them are a minority. I don't see the reason why Boeing would offer it as an option rather than as a standard feature. Some 757s and 767s also lack them, such as Delta's ex-ATA and ex-Gulf Air aircraft.
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ikramerica
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:02 am

Because they are very high up, and you are going to end up blowing air on your neighbors. That's my guess.

A lot of carriers don't put personal air on their widebody jets.
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atlflyer
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:19 am

I agree..I love having personal air vents...it is nice to air circulating..especially when you get on a hot plane in Summer!

Boeing better offer personal air vents on the 787!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 2):
Boeing better offer personal air vents on the 787!

It's a customer option on other planes, but I do wonder if the 787 will have them as an option or if they will be done away with.
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
It's a customer option on other planes, but I do wonder if the 787 will have them as an option or if they will be done away with.

The 787 is supposed to offer higher cabin humidity, and maybe more passengers prefer a more humid cabin over personal air vents. Still, I would like to see Boeing offer them on the 787, 747-8, and the 737RS.
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pygmalion
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:47 am

Gasper air is an option on the 777 and an airline would have to request and pay for it. It adds significant weight with all the additional ducting etc. so most airlines don't add it in. On the 777, I doubt if you could reach it anyway from most seats while you were belted in. The 777 zonal control cabin is flow balanced and gaspers just throw off the flow and temp balance anyway.

I doubt you will see gasper air on the 787. The PSU's are high over your head and unreachable from anything but maybe a window seat. There is no bins in the center in business and first and you would have to stand on a seat to reach the PSU.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:49 am

My guess is that it will stay a customer option... though they are so high that they are not convenient to redirect, would likely disturb other people... so unless they found a new place to put them, like in seat backs or something, they aren't really well workable on large, high ceilinged widebodies.
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N231YE
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:52 am

...come to think of it, no widebody I have ever been on has gasper system outlets above each seat

However, the 764 that I was on had very good airflow, so that makes up for this inconvenience
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 7):
However, the 764 that I was on had very good airflow, so that makes up for this inconvenience

Just to let you know, Delta's 767-400s have personal air vents, while Continental's do not.

BTW, I believe that the 767-400 uses the air circulation system of the 777, rather than the one used on older 767s.
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Viscount724
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 6):
My guess is that it will stay a customer option... though they are so high that they are not convenient to redirect, would likely disturb other people... so unless they found a new place to put them, like in seat backs or something, they aren't really well workable on large, high ceilinged widebodies.

And on some widebodies without centerline overhead bins, air vents in the ceiling would be almost impossible to reach and adjust. And as mentioned by FlyDreamliner, on most widebodies the vents would be difficult to aim so they weren't blowing on a passenger next to you (and would require very strong airfllow to do much good).

Early DC-8s had Douglas-built "Palomar" seats with the air vents in the seatback. There was nothing overhead on early DC-8s as the reading light was at one end of the headrest facing forward and a second light aimed at the meal tray was in the seatback next to the air vent and call button. Emergency oxygen masks were also behind a drop-down panel in the seatback At front row seats the controls/masks were in the bulkhead facing you.

Many DC-10s, at least the early ones, not sure if all, also had air vents and oxygen masks in the seatbacks but reading lights were overhead (with controls in the armrest, along with the call button).

DL DC-8 photo from 1976 below with original Palomar seats. You can see the air vent, call button, and one of the two reading lights in the small panel at the end of each seatback. The oxygen mask is behind the large panel next to it. The main forward-facing reading light is at the end of each headrest on the opposite side of the rear-facing control panel.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ellis M. Chernoff



Other views of the DC-8 Palomar seats in following page from UA DC-8 introduction brochure dated 1958, the year before it went into service. Depending on your browser, it may or may not enlarge to be readable if you click on it. From airchive.com which has a lot of interesting memorabilia of this type.

http://www.airchive.com/Memorabilia/United/DC-8%20insert%20comp.jpg
 
N231YE
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
Just to let you know, Delta's 767-400s have personal air vents, while Continental's do not.

Hmmm...I did not know DL fitted gasper system outlets above each seat in their 764s. I guess this makes up for the lack of PTVs in economy, as Hawaiian717 informed me earlier.
 
jholiiday
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:51 pm

Yup - I was on a 764 about a year and a half ago, ATL-LAX-HNL, and it had vents - but they were hard to reach, I had to unbuckle and stand.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 10):
Hmmm...I did not know DL fitted gasper system outlets above each seat in their 764s. I guess this makes up for the lack of PTVs in economy, as Hawaiian717 informed me earlier.
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Max777geek
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Because they are very high up, and you are going to end up blowing air on your neighbors.

they're very noisy as well
 
atlflyer
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 10):
Hmmm...I did not know DL fitted gasper system outlets above each seat in their 764s. I guess this makes up for the lack of PTVs in economy, as Hawaiian717 informed me earlier.

Some of Delta's 764s already have PTVs in economy and eventually all 764s will be fitted with PTVs. All of the 764s have personal air vents on Delta.
 
BN727
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:07 pm

It's got to be rough sitting next to someone who's passing gas and have no personal air vent.
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:27 pm

Many A330/340 aircraft also do not have personal air vents. I guess it is down to customer preference. From recent experience I noticed that BD and LX didn't have them on their A330/340 respectively. Personally I much prefer to have them.
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:11 pm

I prefer the air vents for health reasons.

Five years ago, I was flying LX ORD-ZRH. The girl next to me had a horrible cold, and was coughing and wheezing throughout the flight. I adjusted the air vent to blow air in the area between us, in hopes of limiting the spread of germs from her coughing.

Even though my immune system was weakened because I'd been under extreme stress before the flight, and didn't sleep from 4 AM Minneapolis time until I got to my hotel room in Vevey, Switzerland the afternoon of the next day, I still didn't get a cold from my seatmate. Having fresh air from the air vents didn't save me from getting sick by itself, but I'm sure it definitely helped.
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C133
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:45 pm

Don't know about other airline's fleets, but American's DC-10s originally had small electric fan gaspers in the seatbacks. When they started burning up, away they went.
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Lokey123
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
but I do wonder if the 787 will have them as an option or if they will be done away with.

That is one thing that I was really disappointed about, alas, personal air vents will not be on the 787.
 
Evan767
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Max777geek (Reply 12):
they're very noisy as well

No they're not.
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CYatUK
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:56 am

I have asked an Engineer once about the personal air vents.

He replied that they are not a core part of the system, in fact they hinder "engineered" airflow and for this reason manufacturer's prefer not to install them.

The temperature of the air coming out of the vent matches that of the rest of the cabin which is controlled by the crew. The positioning of inflow ducts (on the ceiling) and outflow ducts (usually at the intersection of the fuselage with the cabin floor) ensure that every part of the plane gets an "even" amount of air and that there are no places with stalled air.
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DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:35 am

I just poked my head into this thread and find it intriguing. The vast majority of my flying is US domestic flying, almost entirely on narrowbody aircraft that have personal air vents. A couple of weeks ago I went to Europe, and was startled to find no personal air vents on the Lufthansa A340-300 on the way home. I had no idea that so many airlines don't install them on jumbos.

FWIW, I much prefer having personal air vents. I needed to leave my window shade open in order to read, because the person in front of me laid their seatback in my lap for virtually the whole flight on a daytime flight. (Personal opinion: LH's A343 Y seatbacks recline way too much for the seat pitch. LH 744 Y was more reasonable) Their seatback blocked my personal reading light. The sun made me hot, and I wanted moving air. I don't care how well air is circulated in general, at times I want my own airflow. There were bins over both aisle and center seats, so vents would be practicable.

End of opinion. Again, an interesting thread.

Jim

[Edited 2007-04-10 19:37:23]
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sdwranglers
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:35 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the L-1011 have a control unit for the gasper air vent installed into the controls on the seat armrest? I recall being on a Delta flight years ago and the control wasn't really working very well. The idea made sense considering the cabin height.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 19):
Quoting Max777geek (Reply 12):
they're very noisy as well

No they're not.

Depends on the particular aircraft you are on. I've been on aircraft where they have been noisy, and some where they've almost whistled.

Quoting Sdwranglers (Reply 22):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the L-1011 have a control unit for the gasper air vent installed into the controls on the seat armrest? I recall being on a Delta flight years ago and the control wasn't really working very well. The idea made sense considering the cabin height.

The other problem is that air needs to move an awful long way to get from the ceiling down to you, and as a result, has to blow pretty hard to make it all the way down. In a claustrophobic CRJ or a stuffy DC-9, they are nice. I newer, airier, well ventilated aircraft, I don't even use mine.

If they are going to be used in widebodies, I think they need to be mounted in the seatbacks so they aren't an annoyance to people next to you.

Honestly, if the plane is well ventilated, I guess I just don't understand a need for them.
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Vorticity
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:33 am

For people who are slightly claustrophobic (like myself). The illusion of having some control over your environment can be very calming, even if the gasper does not actually provide improved air quality. It's well proven that perception matters more than reality sometimes.
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Tugger
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 21):
The sun made me hot, and I wanted moving air.

I agree 100%, the side with the sun on it can be much warmer to sit and the air is nice to have. I don't care what people say about "modern air circulation systems" being better able to move the air properly and that personal air vents just screw with the air flow, temperature is very subjective and there are times when I just need the air.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
Depends on the particular aircraft you are on. I've been on aircraft where they have been noisy, and some where they've almost whistled.

Usually they are whistling because they are partially closed, when open all the way they tend to be pretty quiet but they do still make noise (and multiplied by the 100 other seats around you it can be a fair amount of additional noise).

I think a good idea would be a small air tube that directs a thin "beam" of air down to the passengers space, which after travelling 3-4 feet is wide enough to be nice. You could make this virtually silent and it could have a velocity adjustment in the armrest. It would add weight and complexity of some level though.

I assume that first class has personal air controls. How do they handle that?

Tug
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting BN727 (Reply 14):
t's got to be rough sitting next to someone who's passing gas and have no personal air vent.

I had that happen last Christmas! Some guy sitting next to me (who didn't even remotely understand English)
kept breaking wind so loud the people across the aisle heard it. Then he would laugh each time he did it! Finally after three go arounds of stinking up the place I gave him a elbow to the ribs. That stopped him for the rest of the flight!
The personal air vent on CO saved the day!
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gigneil
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:00 am

All UA 777s have personal air.

NS
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
The 787 is supposed to offer higher cabin humidity, and maybe more passengers prefer a more humid cabin over personal air vents.

I use vents to blow air in my face if someone rips a nice, juicy, dripping, wet fart. Having higher cabin humidity and no air vents will only enhance the smell.

Quoting Sdwranglers (Reply 22):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the L-1011 have a control unit for the gasper air vent installed into the controls on the seat armrest?

That rings a bell. I remember adjusting that on a flight years ago. It worked pretty good, IIRC.
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n757kw
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Sdwranglers (Reply 22):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the L-1011 have a control unit for the gasper air vent installed into the controls on the seat armrest?

Yes, I remember DL L-1011s had those useless vents in the ceiling with the control in the arm rest, I think it was labeled as AIR. I remember hitting the button and hearing this clicking noise in the ceiling. However, it did not really help for the center seats (before the center overheads were installed). The ceiling was so tall that I doubt if it was blowing at full blast you would feel anything. The lights did not seem any better. The window seats you could feel the air sometimes.

Sometimes I wonder if it was just something to make you feel like you were cooling off. The vents are great in narrowbody aircraft, but in a widebody not as much. My biggest problem is on many international flights the plane is kept too warm, for my taste, everyone else is under blankets. I would love to have a fan.

N757KW
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Spoke2Spoke
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 20):
He replied that they are not a core part of the system, in fact they hinder "engineered" airflow and for this reason manufacturer's prefer not to install them.

I have also heard this. If the cabin is too hot or cold, the crew would be able to bring the temperature back across the aircraft to an acceptable level quicker if the personal air vents are closed. I've known flight attendants to close them in order to let the central circulation work faster. However...

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 21):
I don't care how well air is circulated in general, at times I want my own airflow.

And this is the opinion of many travellers, maybe most. I would love to be in the discussion at an airline about this topic when choosing options on a new fleet type. If I were in charge, I'd stow away my logical and rational thoughts and check the box next to the personal vents. Why be rational when my passengers in my seats aren't?
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Tugger
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 30):
bring the temperature back across the aircraft to an acceptable level quicker if the personal air vents are closed.

As I noted earlier, a "comfortable temperature" is SUBJECTIVE on a personal level. What is cold to one person is too hot for someone else and just perfect to others! Big grin

Which is probably another reason why you also stated:

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 30):
I'd stow away my logical and rational thoughts and check the box next to the personal vents.

I must admit there have been times when I am sweating a bit and afraid that I will start to not smell pleasant and having the airflow cooling me off is very nice (to me and ultimately to the others around me). Fart jokes aside, be able to control your personal environment just a little bit is a very nice thing to be able to do.

Tug
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jetjeanes
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RE: Why No Personal Air Vents On Most 777s?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:39 am

No center aisle on the 777 at Air Canada are built into the side panel on the seats, but are positined for me at my height
it blows up my nose.
i can see for 80 miles