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CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:59 pm

Logan International Airport officials are nearing a deal to move Continental Airlines over to the half-empty $500 million Delta Air Lines Terminal A, which could spur an extensive shuffling of airline gates.

http://www.boston.com/business/artic...al_move_could_start_logan_shuffle/
 
sq452
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:22 am

EXCELLENT!!!!  thumbsup 

About fricking time that this happened. Gates at logan are an ever changing game of musical chairs I must say.

I found the article interesting that the next logical move could be to get NW over to A in order to free up the gates in E.
But given that they have not built customs/immigration facilities at A, I don't know how much northwest would be willing to budge given they are now going with a second AMS flight soon.

They honestly should get officials from NW, AF, AZ, and CO, along with the present tenant DL, and just decide on a way to make terminal A a "skyteam" terminal, add customs/immigration. I figure that with that sort of lineup at A, gates would be maxed out or close to it, and that would give the rest of the airport terminals some room to breath.

Also, the article mentioned new services to Glasgow, Madrid and an airport in Ireland I have never even heard of (Ireland west airport in knock). Can anyone shed some light on this as to who will be operating these routes? Thanks.  Smile
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
boeingbus
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 1):
Also, the article mentioned new services to Glasgow, Madrid and an airport in Ireland I have never even heard of (Ireland west airport in knock). Can anyone shed some light on this as to who will be operating these routes?

It's Fly GlobalSpan....
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
sq452
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 2):
It's Fly GlobalSpan....

For all of the routes?
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
Humberside
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:01 am

FlyGlobespan operating daily flights to Glasgow, stopping a 2/3 times a week in Knock. Think the plan is to use B737-800's

Iberia operating Madrid
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sq452
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 4):
Iberia operating Madrid

Nice...glad to get Iberia into BOS!
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
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airportugal310
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:12 am

Needless to say, for those of us that work here in BOS things are (and have been) getting interesting.

It is of my opinion that FL, especially, needs to be helped in getting better counter and gate/ramp space. They are a busy airline out of here and need to be treated as such.

Of course, space is a limiting factor here. Terminal A is rather spacious, but the rent payments have (at least for my airline) been the make/break deciding factor for relocation.
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
AviationAddict
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 1):
I found the article interesting that the next logical move could be to get NW over to A in order to free up the gates in E.

I don't recall the article saying where NW would be moved to. Terminal A is big, but it's not big enough to house DL, CO and NW. I imagine if NW does move it'd be to CO's old gates in C. But, if that happens, you still have FL stuck in the old terminal D and block any expansion by B6, which according to the article has been promised by Massport to the airline. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.


Also, little off topic, one of the pilots here just told me that Massport has been out in between the 4s/22s for the past few days with heavy equipment which have leveling the land. Does anyone know anything about this? Maybe the long wished for center taxiway?
 
codc10
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:25 am

Will Massport finance a new Presidents Club in Boston? I think this is an important market for CO that would require a CO-branded lounge, rather than shared access with DL in the CRC.

Either way, moving (back) to A would be a wonderful improvement over CO's existing operation at C.
 
sq452
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):
I don't recall the article saying where NW would be moved to.

My mistake, your right, I misquoted meant to write that the next logical step would be to move NW. Which if i had to put money on it, means they would go to A too.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):
Also, little off topic, one of the pilots here just told me that Massport has been out in between the 4s/22s for the past few days with heavy equipment which have leveling the land. Does anyone know anything about this? Maybe the long wished for center taxiway?

Perhaps, that be nice!

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):
Terminal A is big, but it's not big enough to house DL, CO and NW.

I dunno, I think it might, never would know unless we tried! haha.
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bagoldex
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:29 am

They could be doing prep work of some kind, it(centerfield taxiway) is scheduled to go out for bids on August 14.

[Edited 2007-04-10 19:30:24]
 
B752OS
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 4):
FlyGlobespan operating daily flights to Glasgow, stopping a 2/3 times a week in Knock. Think the plan is to use B737-800's

The globe had reported that the flights are seeing solid bookings. For the month of June and July, more than 84% of sets are filled. All flights have sold at least 55% of seats fo far.
 
apodino
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 10):

They could be doing prep work of some kind, it(centerfield taxiway) is scheduled to go out for bids on August 14.

Wow. I thought that project had been canned due to NIMBY opposition. (Really, with the airport surrounded on almost all sides by water, what NIMBY's would actually care about this). If this is true, that would really be good news, but like I said, you can modernize all you want, and it still won't help that airport that much, unless you raze all the terminals and build from scratch.

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 8):
Will Massport finance a new Presidents Club in Boston? I think this is an important market for CO that would require a CO-branded lounge, rather than shared access with DL in the CRC.

Well considering that there are two CRC's in A already, it might be tough to add, unless CO was to use the vacant gates in the west part of the sattellite and make the sattellite CRC a PC, but I don't see what is so bad about a shared access lounge. NW and CO have one in ORD and I think thats an important market for both carriers. My one question is what would happen to the Presidents Club in terminal C. This was a red carpet club years ago until United moved to the old TWA gates, and renovated the old Ambassadors club for the new RCC. Would JetBlue start some kind of lounge and use it? That facility is a prime piece of real estate thats been a lounge for one airline or another the past 25 years at least.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 1):
They honestly should get officials from NW, AF, AZ, and CO, along with the present tenant DL, and just decide on a way to make terminal A a "skyteam" terminal, add customs/immigration.

This has been agrued at length, but someoing suggested in another thread that not only was an FIS not planned, but also there was no space reserved for one. Can someone confirm or deny that an FIS in Term A is even possible?
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
COERJ145
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):

I don't recall the article saying where NW would be moved to. Terminal A is big, but it's not big enough to house DL, CO and NW. I imagine if NW does move it'd be to CO's old gates in C. But, if that happens, you still have FL stuck in the old terminal D and block any expansion by B6, which according to the article has been promised by Massport to the airline. It's going to be interesting to see what happen

NW should be shifted down to the Airtran gates(connected to E) if Airtran is shifted to the CO gates(likely if CO moves to A). This would allow NW to keep its ticket counters+checkpoints in E and have an international gate for their AMS flight.
 
LH423
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 13):
Can someone confirm or deny that an FIS in Term A is even possible?

I don't see how this would be possible unless they could fit a small station under the satellite. But the problem there is you then have to build a separate tunnel back out to the landside.

I think Massport screwed the pooch on this one, which was probably their intention all along.

LH423
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AviationAddict
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 14):
NW should be shifted down to the Airtran gates(connected to E) if Airtran is shifted to the CO gates(likely if CO moves to A). This would allow NW to keep its ticket counters+checkpoints in E and have an international gate for their AMS flight.

I can't prove this, but supposedly B6 is going to be taking at least some if not all of the CO gates. Rumor has it that's part of the reason why we (Cape Air, 9K) signed the partnership with jetBlue a few months ago. It would make it easier for us to avoid a forced movment to the very nice but, as AirPortugal310 pointed out, extremely expensive Terminal A. Who knows though, anything is possible at this place! Whenever you think you have BOS figured out something crazy happens and it all goes out the window.

Many years ago it was suggested to Massport that they tear down the central parking and move the garages to another site. The old central parking land would then be used to build a IAD style check-in/baggage claim terminal. This would then allow the current terminals to be transformed into one huge continuous terminal that was entirely screened. It would have been a massive project, but it probably would have made things a lot easier as passengers would be able to connect to other airlines and there would have been no reason for a single "international" terminal because they could have built multiple customs areas. Oh well...
 
Dalmd88
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 12):
Well considering that there are two CRC's in A already, it might be tough to add, unless CO was to use the vacant gates in the west part of the sattellite and make the sattellite CRC a PC, but I don't see what is so bad about a shared access lounge. NW and CO have one in ORD and I think thats an important market for both carriers

There is a vacant room next to the existing satellite CRC. It was to be the International Lounge so it is equal in size to the CRC. CO will be taking gates in the 19-22 area so it would be close by.
 
highflyer9790
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:12 am

BOS needs more gate space to accomdate rapid growth from jetblue and airtran. more E space would help with the Int'l problem.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):
Also, little off topic, one of the pilots here just told me that Massport has been out in between the 4s/22s for the past few days with heavy equipment which have leveling the land. Does anyone know anything about this? Maybe the long wished for center taxiway?

heard that on the ATIS as well...not sure though

BOS needs another west/northwest CATIII 10000' runway Badly!! anyone agree?
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apodino
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 18):
BOS needs another west/northwest CATIII 10000' runway Badly!! anyone agree?

Another one? 15R-33L isn't even CATIII yet. The only CATIII runway in BOS is 4R. What I would like to see is an upgraded ILS on 27 to make it 1/2 mile minimums, and 33L should be replaced by a CATIII ILS. I would also like to see an ILS installed on 4L as well. Strange thing I noticed while looking at things for the CRJ, the CRJ is actually noisier on Landing than Takeoff, yet 4R landings are brought straight in, but 22R-L departures are turned for noise abatement. Are the noise abatment procedures out dated? The planes these days don't seem to make a lot of noise.
 
LH423
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:30 pm

I thought the centre taxiway was being held up by the NIMBYs for the same reasons that 14/32 was held up for so long, citing that mid-field taxiway would increase traffic, blah blah blah

Dunno if there was any legal injunction to stop construction. A mid-field taxiway would help delays by allowing both traffic to queue for both 22s.

What the NIMBYs have to realize is that with the new runway and other modifications designed to help make Logan more efficient and cut delays isn't going to allow the airport traffic to jump tenfold. Fact is, BOS is still running below it's pre-9.11 levels though that will change this year (it was only 1400 passengers off the mark for 2006 from overtaking 2000 as the busiest year) and according to ACI, despite the lawn darts all over the place, aircraft movements are down over 70,000 a year compared to 2000 levels (478 800 in 2000 versus 406 000 in 2006) and the number is continuing to shrink according to Massport's latest stats for February. Actually, not to go off on a tangent but I don't know how this is possible. In 2000 you still have frequent widebodies domestically. DL had lots of 767s off to ATL, AA had the A300s to MIA and SJU and 767s to the west coast, UA also had widebodies to the west coast. It seems that the overall average number of seats per aircraft would have shrunk along with the number of movements but passenger numbers are almost equal. And European widebodies are not the reason either. In 2000 there were almost 1000 more European departures than in 2006. Also, the executive/private movements can't explain this either as there are less than 3,800 fewer executive movements compared to 2000. The only thing I can surmise is that load factors these days are incredibly high. That and cargo. In 2000, almost 375,000 metric tonnes of mail and cargo passed through BOS, in 2006 that number had shrunk to just under 310,000 tonnes. I can't imagine all the cargo carriers are flying equal or increased cargo schedules for 65,000 fewer tonnes of cargo. But overall, the cargo traffic seems pretty much the same from a spotter's perspective. It definitely hasn't changed enough to account for a huge percentage of the roughly 190 fewer daily movements per day.

Well, I didn't want to go off on a tangent, but I did. Anyone have any idea how this is possible. To lose 72,000 movements a year, have an apparent reduction in domestic widebody flights, yet still maintain near identical passenger totals?

LH423
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jetbluefan1
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 16):
can't prove this, but supposedly B6 is going to be taking at least some if not all of the CO gates. Rumor has it that's part of the reason why we (Cape Air, 9K) signed the partnership with jetBlue a few months ago.

Would these gates in IN ADDITION to the 11 that JetBlue has already signed a lease for, or do they include the 11? It seems to me that since JetBlue is already using 8 gates - and many dots have still not been connected - JetBlue would want more than 11.

Also, with CO's move to A, how many continuous gates would there be for AirTran to utilize?

JetBluefan1
 
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airportugal310
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 19):
Are the noise abatment procedures out dated? The planes these days don't seem to make a lot of noise.

Unless, of course, we are talking about AA & DL's numerous Shady 80's, which TO ME seem louder than any 747's operating out of BOS (BA/AF/LH).

Just an observation.
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commavia
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 18):
more E space would help with the Int'l problem.

Are they ever going to build the second international arrivals area at the end of AA's end of Terminal B, or has that plan now been permanently shelved?
 
LH423
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
Are they ever going to build the second international arrivals area at the end of AA's end of Terminal B

I remember a lot of that expansion of the north side of Terminal B was AA's doing. I remember the announcement to great fanfare (even the governor showed up), but with the downturn after 9.11, AA was already committed to the JFK expansion and shelved the BOS expansion (much in the same way that DL was already committed to Terminal A and shelved the JFK terminal renovations). So, I'm not sure if the FIS area will only be built if AA goes ahead with that construction. I know that that second checkpoint would be situated so it could be accessed from both the AA and US sides. Then again, given how chronically shortstaffed CBP is in Terminal E, I heard that even if Terminal A did have customs controls, CBP wouldn't staff it. I imagine that'd be a similar situation for Terminal B if FIS were to be constructed.

Unfortunately, what Logan lacks the most in (aside from land for growth) is vision. Massport have absolutely no vision, except the ones in their heads of where they're next going on holiday with their 6-digit salaries.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 12):
NW and CO have one in ORD and I think thats an important market for both carriers.

NW and CO do well with shared lounges because both the WC's and PC's have very high standards. (High quality snacks, self service drinks, free Wi-Fi, etc)

The CRC's are nice, but until they get free Wi-Fi and update their snack selection some, they are somewhat inferior to the WC's and PC's.

The fact that DL is making the CRC's no longer free for Platinums is a step in the right direction. Hopefully they will add wi-fi at some point.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
commavia
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 24):
I remember the announcement to great fanfare (even the governor showed up), but with the downturn after 9.11, AA was already committed to the JFK expansion and shelved the BOS expansion (much in the same way that DL was already committed to Terminal A and shelved the JFK terminal renovations).

The way it was described to me, by a former high-up at AA in BOS, was that AA was already set and ready to go with the FIS facilities at BOS, even after 9/11, and it was Massport that put the breaks on the deal. Now, that may make sense if Massport would have been the one primarily paying for it, which I'm not sure about.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 24):
So, I'm not sure if the FIS area will only be built if AA goes ahead with that construction. I know that that second checkpoint would be situated so it could be accessed from both the AA and US sides.

I understood it to be that the new Terminal B FIS would have been shared by AA and US, and both would have gotten use of the facility for their international arrivals. Then again, though, today in 2007, AA and US together add up to -- what? -- maybe 5-6 daily international arrivals, with perhaps a few more during peak summer/winter season, or on weekends? (Not counting AA's YYZ flights, of course, which preclear in Canada.) That hardly sounds like a justification to build a new FIS facility. AA and Eagle could still use some more room down at that end of Terminal B, though, similar to what US now has with its Terminal B expansion.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 24):
Then again, given how chronically shortstaffed CBP is in Terminal E, I heard that even if Terminal A did have customs controls, CBP wouldn't staff it. I imagine that'd be a similar situation for Terminal B if FIS were to be constructed.

Sound's like our government at work!  Smile
 
LH423
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
Then again, though, today in 2007, AA and US together add up to -- what? -- maybe 5-6 daily international arrivals

*begin rant*
Depends on the day, but yes, maximum 10 arrivals between the two. Two LHR, SDQ, MAN, CDG, and maybe a CUN each (does US still have the BOS-MBJ flights?). Everything else, like AUA and BDA, and YYZ preclear so there's they arrive. It would seem like a waste of money. Then again, building FIS in Terminal A is a similar situation. Even if AF and AZ moved over, it's not like DL is magically going to start international service and now that YHZ has US preclearance, the only routes that arrive in Terminal E are YFC, YQB, and YYG. So, you're talking about building FIS in Terminal A for 6-7 daily flights. Maybe eventually DL would add some international service as well, but again, FIS for at most 10 flights. Furthermore, Terminal E to A connections can be done in 10 minute. They're both connected via moving walkways so you drop your bags at the connection desk in Terminal E, take the lift up the moving walkways and in 10 minutes you're at the Terminal A security checkpoint (taking the bus actually takes longer than just walking between the two).

While I think Terminal A should have been built with FIS capabilities, it's also a huge investment for little return. Who knows, maybe DL would be flying to a few European destinations by now. Or, they could have the exact same schedule as they do now, and you would have a summertime schedule of three CRJs to Canada, double-daily Air France to Paris (speaking of which, could a 747 actually fit at any of Terminal A's gates?), daily to MXP, and 5x weekly service to FCO (assuming AF and AZ were to move, which they most probably would have).

I think at this point, Massport would be VERY wise to look at ways to expand Terminal E. I remember when the Logan Modernization plan was announced and throughout the building process of the expanded Terminal E, they plans were eventually to build a "west wing" which would have extended out towards the AA hangar. I believe it would have added 3-4 more gates. I'm not sure if this is possible now, given that there's now a building there housing the TSA screening machines, and also such a structure would most likely necessitate the tearing down of the AA hangar. But, the fact is, Massport is in charge of running and airport, and they always go on about wanting to attract new service, but the facilities they give the international airlines are simply not adequate. This year, BOS will have 4 more European flights daily, including one that will arrive and depart at the busiest time of the day for BOS (IB will be departing between 1800 and 1915. In that hour you have BA, LH, LX, EI, AZ, NW, and AZ all departing). There simply isn't enough gate space during that period of the day.

*end rant*

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
The way it was described to me, by a former high-up at AA in BOS, was that AA was already set and ready to go with the FIS facilities at BOS, even after 9/11, and it was Massport that put the breaks on the deal

That wouldn't surprise me. Again, Massport lack anything resembling a vision for what BOS could and should be. They want to market it as a "world class airport" but really it's a Mickey Mouse Club. It's where government officials put their neighbour's best friend's sister's husband who barely got his GED into a nice, cushy 100k/year job. Massport only care about lining their own pockets and they know they can do that better if they put everything into E, neglect everything else, and then bitch at the airlines when things don't go smoothly (I have stories that have happened to me personally and my company, as well as to friends of mine at other airlines, that would make your head spin at how bad Massport is).

For instance, take the lounges. As most international airports in the US, the lounges (even for the international airlines who have higher standards than the domestics) don't really compare to those in HKG, DXB, LHR, etc. But, most at least have windows that you can at least look out of and see natural sunlight. In BOS, that's also true, unless you're flying out on BA, LX, FI, LH, or EI. If you're on one of those airlines, you're put into the bowels of Terminal E. You have to take a lift from the departures down one level where you come out into a corridor that's rectangular in shape and that's INCREDIBLY long and bland and really reminds you of any economy line hotel. None of the lounges have windows (I once went to work in the lounge for my former employer. It was a chilly, but sunny May afternoon. I came back upstairs 2 hours later and it was snowing. But you'd have no idea since there's no view to the outside world). Rather than, while expanding Terminal E, building new lounges that could rival any airport, Massport took the cheap route, left the lounges where they are and simply did a cheap refurbishment of the hallway. In fact, it's so cheap looking part of me is hoping that this is just a temporary measure, but I know it's not. Virgin have actually approached Massport about building a clubhouse on TOP of Terminal E. I personally think that's how it should have been all along. Add a fourth level to the terminal, opening up the ceiling with the lounges overlooking the departure level. Of course, that would have been costly and Massport never would have gone for it.

Again...*end rant*

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
COERJ145
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 27):
This year, BOS will have 4 more European flights daily, including one that will arrive and depart at the busiest time of the day for BOS (IB will be departing between 1800 and 1915. In that hour you have BA, LH, LX, EI, AZ, NW, and AZ all departing). There simply isn't enough gate space during that period of the day.

As I stated in my past post, if Massport got Airtran to go to A along with CO, then they could shift NW down 2 gates to include the Airtran gates. NW right now is hogging E1A/B, E2, E3 and E4. E2, E3, and E4 are connected to customs(from what I know), so if NW took gate 1C/D/E, they would have a gate for their AMS flights (E2), and room for plenty of domestic flights(E1A/B and 1C/D/E). This in turn would free up E3 and E4 for international carriers.
 
ScottB
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 12):
My one question is what would happen to the Presidents Club in terminal C. This was a red carpet club years ago until United moved to the old TWA gates, and renovated the old Ambassadors club for the new RCC. Would JetBlue start some kind of lounge and use it? That facility is a prime piece of real estate thats been a lounge for one airline or another the past 25 years at least.

I wouldn't exactly call it a prime piece of real estate; it has one huge flaw in that it is on the non-sterile side of security. There had been a Crown Room Club in the former Delta, now jetBlue pier of Terminal C; I believe it was turned into a food court. I suspect that if B6 had intentions of opening a lounge facility, they would have done so with the old CRC.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):
Terminal A is big, but it's not big enough to house DL, CO and NW.

 checkmark 

Continental probably needs a minimum of 4 jet gates and two regional aircraft spots, which would only leave two jet gates and one RJ/prop position for NWA. I wonder if they'd try to work out a deal to get two gates in the main terminal for the EWR flights, two in the satellite for IAH & CLE, and a couple of spots at A9-A12 for the Commutair flights.

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 21):
Would these gates in IN ADDITION to the 11 that JetBlue has already signed a lease for, or do they include the 11? It seems to me that since JetBlue is already using 8 gates - and many dots have still not been connected - JetBlue would want more than 11.

Also, with CO's move to A, how many continuous gates would there be for AirTran to utilize?

There currently exist 11 gates in the C25-C36 pier; those would likely be the 11 gates which jetBlue has agreed to lease. There are three gates (C40-42) that extend southwest from Terminal C along the walkway to Terminal B (two of these are really in the Massport administration building). This really isn't much of an improvement over AirTran's current situation since those three gates have their own TSA checkpoint and are quite a distance from the gate they're currently using in the United pier (i.e. not much close than the gates they're using in the former Terminal D). I can see Midwest either moving over into the US Airways half of Terminal B or the former America West/ATA gates in American's half of Terminal B. I'd guess that AirTran would then take the counter space in C now used by CO and YX.

I don't imagine that Northwest is too eager to move into the current AirTran gates in what used to be Terminal D (1C-1E) given that they were pretty ghetto the last time I was through there. They're also a bit of a hike from the check-in area and baggage claim.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 12):
Really, with the airport surrounded on almost all sides by water, what NIMBY's would actually care about this

Surrounded by water, yes, but there are neighborhoods/towns on almost all sides just beyond that water -- South Boston, East Boston, Winthrop.

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 18):
BOS needs another west/northwest CATIII 10000' runway Badly!! anyone agree?

Sure, but there's nowhere to put it. It's exceedingly unlikely that permission would EVER be given to fill in the tidal flats in order to extend 15L/33R. And it would only help in certain weather conditions.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 20):
Anyone have any idea how this is possible. To lose 72,000 movements a year, have an apparent reduction in domestic widebody flights, yet still maintain near identical passenger totals?

Well, part of it is due to increased capacity on narrowbody flights. In 2000, the Florida flights on US Airways (Metrojet) and Delta Express were being operated by 120-seat 737-200's. In 2006, Delta was using MD-88's (142 seats) and 757-200's (199 seats in Song configuration), while jetBlue was using 156-seat A320's. Moreover, at AA, the 767-200 actually holds fewer seats than the 757-200. While Logan has lots of lawn darts today, it also has far fewer turboprops, and most Barbie Dream Jets hold more passengers than your average puddle jumper. The former Business Express presence at BOS acquired by American Eagle in 1999 is down to roughly 40 daily departures. And, as you observed, load factors are significantly higher than in 2000. Delta's load factor in 2000 was 72.9%; it was 78.5% in 2006, even with the company's bankruptcy likely causing people to book away.
 
AviationAddict
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 21):
Would these gates in IN ADDITION to the 11 that JetBlue has already signed a lease for, or do they include the 11? It seems to me that since JetBlue is already using 8 gates - and many dots have still not been connected - JetBlue would want more than 11.

Also, with CO's move to A, how many continuous gates would there be for AirTran to utilize?

As far as I know B6 would take the CO gates in ADDITION to the ones they already have (which would stick us right in the middle of a B6 party).
I don't know what's going on with FL, though.
 
AviationAddict
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 18):

BOS needs another west/northwest CATIII 10000' runway Badly!! anyone agree?

It'd be awesome if they could lengthen 15L/33R to around 10,000 ft., but that'll probably never happen. Too much money and the environmental impact would be huge (can't fill land like they did in the good ole days)! Plus, the two runways might be too close together for that.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 19):
What I would like to see is an upgraded ILS on 27 to make it 1/2 mile minimums, and 33L should be replaced by a CATIII ILS.

I think all major airports should be equipped with the best components possible.
 
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 19):
Another one? 15R-33L isn't even CATIII yet. The only CATIII runway in BOS is 4R. What I would like to see is an upgraded ILS on 27 to make it 1/2 mile minimums, and 33L should be replaced by a CATIII ILS. I would also like to see an ILS installed on 4L as well. Strange thing I noticed while looking at things for the CRJ, the CRJ is actually noisier on Landing than Takeoff, yet 4R landings are brought straight in, but 22R-L departures are turned for noise abatement. Are the noise abatment procedures out dated? The planes these days don't seem to make a lot of noise.

I jumped ahead of myself. i know 33L is not CAT III, however another west/northwest runway is crucial to help ease traffic flow. 27 would be the ULTIMATE improvement, problem is there is no way to lengthen it, because then the the planes will land on yirdell beach instead of passing over it. 4R apporoaches begin on the 045º radial out of PVD at 11,000, and straight in there after.... however, the noise abatement on departure is still in place.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
Are they ever going to build the second international arrivals area at the end of AA's end of Terminal B, or has that plan now been permanently shelved?

shelved...DL was supposed to use A for their int'l expansion, bu then came a date called 9/11.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 24):
remember a lot of that expansion of the north side of Terminal B was AA's doing. I remember the announcement to great fanfare (even the governor showed up), but with the downturn after 9.11, AA was already committed to the JFK expansion and shelved the BOS expansion (much in the same way that DL was already committed to Terminal A and shelved the JFK terminal renovations). So, I'm not sure if the FIS area will only be built if AA goes ahead with that construction. I know that that second checkpoint would be situated so it could be accessed from both the AA and US sides. Then again, given how chronically shortstaffed CBP is in Terminal E, I heard that even if Terminal A did have customs controls, CBP wouldn't staff it. I imagine that'd be a similar situation for Terminal B if FIS were to be constructed.

B can't even hold its own, let alone the AA LHR evening departure. the place is saturated with lines.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 27):
While I think Terminal A should have been built with FIS capabilities, it's also a huge investment for little return. Who knows, maybe DL would be flying to a few European destinations by now.

They were going to go int'l but massport gave them problems with customs and then they hit a place called bankruptcy and became fixated on JFK..

Quoting LH423 (Reply 27):
I think at this point, Massport would be VERY wise to look at ways to expand Terminal E.

YES! terminal E is fantastic due to its renovations, however its too small. Terminal E should be #1 on the agenda especially if massport wants the anticipated asia service.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 27):
This year, BOS will have 4 more European flights daily, including one that will arrive and depart at the busiest time of the day for BOS (IB will be departing between 1800 and 1915. In that hour you have BA, LH, LX, EI, AZ, NW, and AZ all departing). There simply isn't enough gate space during that period of the day.

Its nutz-o. Unless they have more gates and another runway, int'l service from BOS will eventually have to be contained to only a few more new flights. E has GOT to be expanded.

Quoting LH423 (Reply 27):
Virgin have actually approached Massport about building a clubhouse on TOP of Terminal E.

There is one on top of E. i was most recently at E in January taking LX 53 and i saw a sign directing elligble VS passengers to their club house upstairs...

Quoting ScottB (Reply 29):
Sure, but there's nowhere to put it. It's exceedingly unlikely that permission would EVER be given to fill in the tidal flats in order to extend 15L/33R. And it would only help in certain weather conditions.

Well, most of the time, winds are out of the west. but unfortunately boston harbour is a national preserve so any expansion is forbidden as of right now.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 31):
It'd be awesome if they could lengthen 15L/33R to around 10,000 ft., but that'll probably never happen. Too much money and the environmental impact would be huge (can't fill land like they did in the good ole days)! Plus, the two runways might be too close together for that.

too close for simultanious approach. I say add land and make a 27L thats at least 8000'. but boston harbour is a national preserve so any expansion is forbidden as of right now. however, i do think 4R is adequit for CATIII right now. ironically, CATIII wind conditions here in BOS most of the time favor 4R anyway.

I could rant about Terminal E and a new runway for a long time.... banghead 

highflyer
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AviationAddict
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 32):
I could rant about Terminal E and a new runway for a long time....

We could rant about everything at BOS for a long time...
 
B752OS
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 32):
Its nutz-o. Unless they have more gates and another runway, int'l service from BOS will eventually have to be contained to only a few more new flights. E has GOT to be expanded.

Which is why Massport needs to put FIS in Terminal A badly as has been mentioned. Just think of the relief that Terminal E would see by having AF and AZ moved there, that's 2 daily flights in the late Fall and winter and 4 during Spring and Summer. If NW was to move to A, then the 2 daily AMS flights would also go. That would certainly free up some space in terminal E.


BOS as a non-hub airport has a solid lineup of flights and airlines on the international side, granted that mainly come from Europe.

BA- 3 x daily LHR
VS - 1 x daily LHR
AF-1 x daily (2 x daily in late Spring, Summer and early Fall) -CDG
LX - 1x daily ZRH
LH - 1 xdaily (2 x daily in late Spring, Summer and early Fall) - FRA
LH - 1 x daily MUC - seasonal
AZ - 1 x daily MXP
AZ - 5 x weekly - FCO
NW - 2 x daily AMS (Second daily starts soon)
EI - 1 x daily - SNN
EI - 1 x Daily DUB
AA - 2 x Daily LHR (13 x weekly Winter)
AA - 1 x daily CDG seasonal
AA - 1 x daily MAN seasonal
IB - 5 x weekly MAD
FI - 1 x KEF
GSM - 2 x weekly GLA

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 32):
B can't even hold its own, let alone the AA LHR evening departure. the place is saturated with lines.

Terminal B is a crowded place regardless of the nightly LHR flight. I have taken the both the night time and day time BOS-LHR flight a few times and you make due with what's given. Granted to daylight flight has a little more space to sit in the terminal.
 
highflyer9790
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 33):
We could rant about everything at BOS for a long time...

O hell yessss....

Quoting B752OS (Reply 34):
Which is why Massport needs to put FIS in Terminal A badly as has been mentioned. Just think of the relief that Terminal E would see by having AF and AZ moved there, that's 2 daily flights in the late Fall and winter and 4 during Spring and Summer. If NW was to move to A, then the 2 daily AMS flights would also go. That would certainly free up some space in terminal E.

Thing is, as much as i would like to see more Int'l serivce, the "Terminal C" airlines like Airtran and jetBlue are rapidly expanding, B6, if they had more room, wouldn't hesitate to use a few more gate, as well as airtran. to keep things simple, wouldnt it be easier to have an E expansion and a few more gates near A for the national carriers? keep customs in one area?


highflyer
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Cubsrule
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 29):
I don't imagine that Northwest is too eager to move into the current AirTran gates in what used to be Terminal D (1C-1E) given that they were pretty ghetto the last time I was through there. They're also a bit of a hike from the check-in area and baggage claim.

The FL gates are fairly bright and airy now. The concession choices are limited (nonexistent?), but NW's current gates are in equally bad shape, and when the NW security checkpoint is open, it's not a bad walk to the FL gates. It's a bit more of a haul from the main checkpoint, but again, that's also true of the current NW gates.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
LH423
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 28):
This in turn would free up E3 and E4

Actually, E4 has always been common user. LX use that gate on most days. Last year Massport was able to convince NW to give up E3B and AZ's FCO flight used that gate on most days. There actually was a relatively quiet security breach on day on that gate. Since the AZ flight and NW (on E3A) often has simultaneous boardings. One night a passenger on the FCO flight went down the wrong jetbridge and ended up on the NW AMS flight. By the time he realized his error, the AZ flight was already gone. For those of you not familiar with Terminal E, you go through a door which takes you down some steps (Massport is currently updating the gates to have escalators) to what's called the 'satellite' and from there you go down the jetway. On gates 3, 7, and 8 there are multiple jetbridges (A and B) leading off. So when you have two flights boarding at the same time all the passpengers go through the same entrance and then split off to their respective jetways at the satellite. Apparently, neither AZ nor NW had passengers checking to make sure that no one got onto the wrong jetway. So, NW has been accomodating in that aspect, and it's probably what saved AZ and/or EI from having to do hardstand boardings at lot more than they actually had to.

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 32):
ts nutz-o. Unless they have more gates and another runway, int'l service from BOS will eventually have to be contained to only a few more new flights

Or Massport just has to develop a system that will allow more remote parking boardings. Europeans are already used to being bussed to their aircraft at the European hubs so it wouldn't be a huge inconvenience. But they need more buses and covered boarding stairs, and the parking areas at North Cargo would need to be fitted with underground fuel hookups (any aircraft doing a hardstand boarding needs to be filled up by a truck). In fact, two summers ago it wasn't uncommon to see either AZ or EI having to at least offload their passengers at North Cargo and then when a gate freed up they'd move the aircraft to a gate for boarding. I honestly think that Massport needs to seriously look at that, at least as in interim measure, as I see no way that everyone will be able to be accommodated now with IB in the picture (GSM comes in late enough and has a short enough ground time - 1930 arrival and a 2045 departure - that it won't be much of an issue for them).

Quoting B752OS (Reply 34):
FI - 1 x KEF

Actually, FI will be up to 11 weekly flights. There is a new 12:05 arrival with a 14:35 departure four days a week. Trying to tap into the O&D market between BOS and KEF as well as more cargo (no 767 to BOS this summer and from what I've heard the 757s were packed to the gills with cargo).

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 32):
There is one on top of E. i was most recently at E in January taking LX 53 and i saw a sign directing elligble VS passengers to their club house upstairs...

VS currently use the Northwest World Club downstairs on level two, along with AZ and occasionally Air France will send some of their overflow there as well when they know their lounge will be filled. There's no dedicated Virgin lounge at BOS right now. When I left working there, BA were going to consolidate their two lounges to be side by side with a common entrance which would have freed up the BA First lounge and Virgin was looking into filling that space. The president of VS, not SRB but some other guy, came and toured the space and then it was shortly thereafter that the rumour that VS was looking to build a new lounge surfaced. I guess they must have felt the BA space wasn't suitable for their needs.

LH423
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GLAGAZ
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 34):
GSM - 2 x weekly GLA

GLA-BOS will be daily. GLA-NOC-BOS will be 2x weekly...

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
Dalmd88
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 27):
Furthermore, Terminal E to A connections can be done in 10 minute. They're both connected via moving walkways so you drop your bags at the connection desk in Terminal E, take the lift up the moving walkways and in 10 minutes you're at the Terminal A security checkpoint (taking the bus actually takes longer than just walking between the two).

You have a very slow watch. Yes it can be done in 10, I have done it to catch the Massport Logan Express bus. I only did it on a dead run on the moving sidewalks. I would think it would take closer to 20 for the typical walking transit. On top of that add the wait through TSA and it gets longer. I think the movement of the aircraft is one of the things that DL hates. A tow team takes up manpower from the ramp and it adds to the trun time for the aircraft. With FIS at A and B I bet the resident airlines would increase the number of international flights and would free up much needed space at E.
 
highflyer9790
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 37):
Or Massport just has to develop a system that will allow more remote parking boardings. Europeans are already used to being bussed to their aircraft at the European hubs so it wouldn't be a huge inconvenience.

Massport + bussing 300 people + no room + it massport again = NO WAY!

its a miracle BOS is a good as it is. busing passengers, to the average mind, is fine. it really is. but massport will find some way to complicate. plus, with new england weather, its smarter and easier to have a gate.
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Lemurs
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 25):
NW and CO do well with shared lounges because both the WC's and PC's have very high standards. (High quality snacks, self service drinks, free Wi-Fi, etc)

The CRC's are nice, but until they get free Wi-Fi and update their snack selection some, they are somewhat inferior to the WC's and PC's.

It's not something small to dismiss either. BOS is a big business travel market for CO, with many people using them for commuter service to/from EWR. Those people who pay for Pclub access in that market want that WiFi and upgraded service...the CRC is a noticable step down. Of course, if it makes sense for other reasons, CO may decide they can handle whatever cancelations to Pclub memberships they take...
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
B752OS
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 41):
It's not something small to dismiss either. BOS is a big business travel market for CO, with many people using them for commuter service to/from EWR. Those people who pay for Pclub access in that market want that WiFi and upgraded service...the CRC is a noticable step down. Of course, if it makes sense for other reasons, CO may decide they can handle whatever cancelations to Pclub memberships they take...

Now I know DL has 2 crown clubs in terminal A, do you, or anyone, know how large and nice they are? I would assume they would be pretty decent given that it is a new terminal and all. Couldn't CO also use one of those clubs? CO does not have that large of a operation out of BOS, aside from the somewhat large commuter network, they only have mainline flights to EWR, IAH and CLE. Speaking of which, how does CO do on the BOS-IAH flights?

I also wonder if they could perhaps add on more room in terminal A to accomodate another club if NW was also to move in. In any event, I am sure that B6 anf FL would enjoy having more space in terminal C to grow.

The Globe did an interview with the CEO of FL some time ago and he mentioned that BOS was going to see growth and that they hoped to be north of 35 flights by this year.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 42):
The Globe did an interview with the CEO of FL some time ago and he mentioned that BOS was going to see growth and that they hoped to be north of 35 flights by this year.

FL makes a lot of grandiose claims. Ask the folks at DFW how it worked out for them.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 42):
Now I know DL has 2 crown clubs in terminal A, do you, or anyone, know how large and nice they are?

All CRC's, regardless of how new they are, have inferior snack selections to PC's and WC's, and do not have free Wi-Fi.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
Lemurs
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
All CRC's, regardless of how new they are, have inferior snack selections to PC's and WC's, and do not have free Wi-Fi.

Right...it's not that they're not nice. I''ve been in very nice CRC's. They're just not PC's or WC's. The WiFi thing is huge for me, since I tend to structure my business trips around the idea of getting to the airport earlier than normal to avoid traffic on streets at the location, and standby on earlier flights if I get a day off early. Having free WiFi at the PC is a huge deal for me. If I am flying from a location with only a CRC, I'll often change my tactics around some. Not every flyer is like that of course, but I don't think I am an unusual PC member, either.

The other thing I have noticed is that CRC's are always noticeably more crowded than PC/WCs. I'm not sure why that is exactly, but someone mentioned once that Delta sells year memberships in return for 25,000 or 50,000 miles or something like that? That would certain swell the ranks of almost any club. Regardless, there have been a few times where the CRC felt more crowded than the gate area I just left, which is not the club experience I am looking for. The larger and more hub-like the operation, the more true this is. Not sure how BOS qualifies there for DL though.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 42):
The Globe did an interview with the CEO of FL some time ago and he mentioned that BOS was going to see growth and that they hoped to be north of 35 flights by this year.

Im sure FL would be alot bigger in BOS had it not been for B6's expansion!
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 45):
The other thing I have noticed is that CRC's are always noticeably more crowded than PC/WCs. I'm not sure why that is exactly, but someone mentioned once that Delta sells year memberships in return for 25,000 or 50,000 miles or something like that?

I know you can buy CRC memberships with miles, but i can't remember how many it costs.

Also, CRC's used to free for platinums on DL, however, that is now changing. The CRC's will align themselves with CO and NW and charge platinums for memberships.

This is a step in the right direction. Hopefully free Wi-Fi will be soon to come.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
deltairlines
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:49 am

The BOS CRC does offer free wi-fi now. Went through there about three months ago and asked for one of the broadband cards and the agent informed me it was all free wi-fi now.

Snack selections are still quite poor though. NW does offer much better selections (I've only been in the SEA President's Club, and that was for 10 minutes, so I can't really comment on PCs). It's 70,000 miles/year for general, 60,000 for Silver, 50,000 for Gold, 40,000 for Plats. Add another 20,000 miles to each to make it a joint account for spouses.

Both CRCs in BOS are amongst the nicest in the system that I've been to. SEA and the ATL C gates CRCs compare to them. Very open and airy, lot of room to spread out and relax. 2 televisions at each, workstation areas as well. Sam Adams and Coors Light are the beers. Never been really crowded at each one when I've gone through, even on Monday mornings - I'd assume part of this is that BOS is an outstation for DL, so not many layovers there, and people can show up, go to the gate and hop on the plane instead of waiting at the CRC. Still a good place to kill delays, or grab a drink before the flight.

Ejmmsu, you're at Wake Forest? We'll have to meet up at Benson or something for lunch or something (I'm a junior here).
 
boswashsprstar
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RE: CO Likely To BOS Terminal A By Year's End

Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 16):

Many years ago it was suggested to Massport that they tear down the central parking and move the garages to another site. The old central parking land would then be used to build a IAD style check-in/baggage claim terminal. This would then allow the current terminals to be transformed into one huge continuous terminal that was entirely screened. It would have been a massive project, but it probably would have made things a lot easier as passengers would be able to connect to other airlines and there would have been no reason for a single "international" terminal because they could have built multiple customs areas. Oh well...

LAX had basically the exact same thing on the drawing board, but last I knew I think it was scrapped there as well. A shame, because both airports have a lot of similar problems (from a passenger perspective), and both would be tremendously helped by such a restructuring--though at both, the amount of money required would be just unbelievable.