at777
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The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:21 am

I really don't want this to happen and hopefully it won't.

I've seen that LH has stopped sending the A343 and started the A333.
Is this the beginning of the end for LH at CLT?

Also...Anymore info on BMI coming to CLT?
It would be nice to see two International carriers here!

Thanks for your comments.

Ashley from CLT
 
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LTU932
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:28 am

Why should it be a downgrade? The A333 has roughly the same seat capacity as most A343s (at least according to Seatguru.com (I know, probably not a very reliable source).
 
walter747
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting AT777 (Thread starter):
It would be nice to see two International carriers here!

You already have two. Big grin
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
LHUSA
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:31 am

I wouldn't have any concerns about LH at CLT.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:32 am

As long as they build BMW's in South carolina there will be LH service
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flyyul
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:32 am

The LH 333 has more F/J seats than the A340-300 so this can be a measure to improve profitability
 
MAH4546
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting AT777 (Thread starter):
I've seen that LH has stopped sending the A343 and started the A333.
Is this the beginning of the end for LH at CLT?

No, it's not. It is right-sizing the market.

Quoting AT777 (Thread starter):
Also...Anymore info on BMI coming to CLT?

They aren't.
a.
 
united319
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 4):
As long as they build BMW's in South carolina there will be LH service

Along with that, the Star Alliance connections. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe that LH serves every major Star Alliance Carrier hub in the USA accept for LAS, and then some

IAD, SFO, LAX, DEN, ORD=UA
PHL, PHX, CLT=US
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LHUSA
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting United319 (Reply 7):
PHL, PHX, CLT=US

No PHX just yet...
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting LHUSA (Reply 8):
No PHX just yet...

They used to serve us here in PHX to FRA (as did LTU to DUS), but left. They again were to serve us or DEN, they chose DEN. Sure sould be nice for another European carrier (other than BA) to Europe. Maybe US will serve FRA.

Who knows and time will ultimately tell.
You can't cure stupid
 
LHUSA
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:09 am

US has apparantley expressed interest in flying PHX-FRA. I think it will be a matter of first come first serve between LH and US to see who services the route. I wouldn't be surprised if PHX-FRA were served as soon as next Winter or Summer 2008.
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 4):
As long as they build BMW's in South Carolina there will be LH service

Actually, that's GSP that they operate into for the BMW stuff. No reason to fly to Charlotte just to have to drive a couple of hours down to Greenville when you can fly into just-as-capable GSP.
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
walter747
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 11):
Actually, that's GSP that they operate into for the BMW stuff. No reason to fly to Charlotte just to have to drive a couple of hours down to Greenville when you can fly into just-as-capable GSP.

From FRA. No. CLT is the biggest airport closest that is a Star Alliance Hub.
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mikeyCpvd
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 11):
Actually, that's GSP that they operate into for the BMW stuff. No reason to fly to Charlotte just to have to drive a couple of hours down to Greenville when you can fly into just-as-capable GSP.

Last time I checked, Greenville-Spartanburg didn't have scheduled n/s pax flights to Europe; thus the original point being made that you can fly into CLT on LH and connect to GSP on a 45 min US-Express flight.
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steeler83
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:44 am

I think PIT will see the A380 before CLT loses LH  Wink
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DeltaAVL
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting MikeyCpvd (Reply 13):

Last time I checked, Greenville-Spartanburg didn't have scheduled n/s pax flights to Europe; thus the original point being made that you can fly into CLT on LH and connect to GSP on a 45 min US-Express flight.

The point was not about passenger service, but about BMW manufacturing. Thus, they have European cargo flights that come into GSP regularly.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 12):
From FRA. No. CLT is the biggest airport closest that is a Star Alliance Hub.

Right, I understand. I guess I worded that a little weird, what I meant is that flights relating to the the BMW manufacturing would not be using CLT, but rather GSP.
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
at777
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 2):
You already have two.

I know LH, but I can't think of the other one. Maybe Jazz?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
They aren't.

Was there not talk of BMI coming? I know I saw it in the paper here in CLT that more than likely they were coming in the next 6-12 months. Maybe i'm wrong then and something happened I didn't see.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting AT777 (Reply 17):
I know LH, but I can't think of the other one. Maybe Jazz?

Yup.. 2 international carriers of Lufthansa and Air Canada Jazz..

what shocks me is that Bahamasair doesn't offer some flights to CLT on their medal since they codeshare with US.. but, I wonder a lot of stuff.. so oh well..
Aiming High and going far..
 
Molykote
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting AT777 (Thread starter):
I've seen that LH has stopped sending the A343 and started the A333.
Is this the beginning of the end for LH at CLT?

I am merely speculating here but the equipment swap to the A333 may have simply been an opportunity to optimize the aircraft used to serve the route. I couldn't imagine A343 capabilities were needed to fly FRA-CLT (although I don't know what effect the A333 "downgrade" may have had on cargo revenue if any).
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MAH4546
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting AT777 (Reply 17):

Was there not talk of BMI coming? I know I saw it in the paper here in CLT that more than likely they were coming in the next 6-12 months. Maybe i'm wrong then and something happened I didn't see.

A high-up at bmi, referring to the new US-EU Open Skies agreement, briefly mentioned Charlotte as a possibility. In reality, he was just spewing out random cities. bmi will find plenty of US cities to expand to pending getting new aircraft. Charlotte will most likely not be one of them. It was a one-off comment.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 18):
what shocks me is that Bahamasair doesn't offer some flights to CLT on their medal since they codeshare with US.. but, I wonder a lot of stuff.. so oh well..

Not that surprising. They have a limited fleet and cater to the VFR market. They need their 732s for FLL and MIA flights. US Airways flies CLT-NAS. Bahamasair has no need to.
a.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting MikeyCpvd (Reply 13):
Last time I checked, Greenville-Spartanburg didn't have scheduled n/s pax flights to Europe; thus the original point being made that you can fly into CLT on LH and connect to GSP on a 45 min US-Express flight.

...or just hop on 85 and be in Greer in ~75 minutes.
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flydreamliner
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:20 pm

Yeah, you'd think those BMW types would rather drive...
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
dank
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
Why should it be a downgrade? The A333 has roughly the same seat capacity as most A343s (at least according to Seatguru.com (I know, probably not a very reliable source).

 checkmark  It seems to me that it is probably putting the right aircraft on the route in terms of range, etc. Depending on the seating configuration LH flies 343s and 333s with the same number of seats by cabin(seatguru 333 #1 and 343 #2, for example) and both fleets have different mixtures of premium/economy seating (does any other airline fly so many different configurations of multiple models?). Why fly a 343 on a route that the 333 can handle? If they swapped with a 332, that would have been a different story (I assume all of the 332s are out of the fleet by now?).

Cheers.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting AT777 (Thread starter):
It would be nice to see two International carriers here!



Quoting AT777 (Reply 17):
Quoting Walter747 (Reply 2):
You already have two.

I know LH, but I can't think of the other one. Maybe Jazz?

what about US ? I would have thought that they would have been the most obvious international carrier at CLT or don't you consider CLT-LGW / CLT-FRA / CLT-Caribbean / CLT- Canada / CLT-Central America / CLT-MEX etc to be international flights
 
HB-IWC
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:36 pm

LH decided to keep some A333 aircraft at the MUC hub, so as to keep the cockpit crews based there trained for the type. As such a couple of destinations had to be chosen for MUC-based A333 service, and LH likely made the best fit for both the market and the aircraft rotation schedule.
 
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LTU932
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Dank (Reply 23):
Why fly a 343 on a route that the 333 can handle?

I guess the switch might also come from the fact that LH has more A333s available, so they can shift the A343s to longer routes.

Quoting Dank (Reply 23):
I assume all of the 332s are out of the fleet by now?

Correct. The ex SR A332s (D-AIMA, D-AIMB and D-AIMC) are all with TP now (as CS-TOE, CS-TOF and CS-TOG), while the ex SN A332s (D-AIMD and D-AIME) are with LX (as HB-IQQ and HB-IQR).
 
dank
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 26):
I guess the switch might also come from the fact that LH has more A333s available, so they can shift the A343s to longer routes.

Exactly. Seems like now that they have more 333s, they can use them on the shorter routes (particularly since equivalent premium density seatings appear to be available in both types).

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 26):
Correct. The ex SR A332s (D-AIMA, D-AIMB and D-AIMC) are all with TP now (as CS-TOE, CS-TOF and CS-TOG), while the ex SN A332s (D-AIMD and D-AIME) are with LX (as HB-IQQ and HB-IQR).

Thanks!

dheers.
 
stylo777
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting United319 (Reply 7):
PHL, PHX, CLT=US

probably you mixed it up with PDX which they serve from FRA
 
PanHAM
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 15):

The point was not about passenger service, but about BMW manufacturing. Thus, they have European cargo flights that come into GSP regularly.

Ad-hoc charters yes, the regular cargo flights go to HSV or ATL, depending which freight forwarder is used. The goods are pre-cleared and trucked to GSP. There are many more German companies than just BMW in that region.

The 333 and the 34P (that's the one in LH's F/C/Y configuration) have exactly the same numb er of seats.
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flyboy7974
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:09 pm

All last year when the word spread that another international carrier was coming to PHX, everybody thought and talked about LH reentering the PHX market. The more and more that people talked about it, you would have thought a press release was imminent, but, nobody thought about PHX's next door neighbor, and the airline announcing new international service was Mexicana.

Every year when I travel with a close friend from the states to visit all his relatives just outside STR, we spend about 2-3 weeks in Germany. His aunt works for LH in a field office, and although she's considered corporate, it's interesting her position not in the main offices. This was over a year ago last time we saw her, but her notion was that LH was greatly disappointed with PHX and the yields that materialized and the poor performance of the Airbus a/c in PHX conditions. It was apparent that LH was satisfied in serving PHX through their alliance carriers and that other opportunities would surface. Well, we've all seen those, the introduction of PDX service a couple years ago, the addition of MUC services throughtout the states and the recent addition of a second daily DTW flight and increased flight frequencies/aircraft upgrades on other routes. She keep mentioning that LH was looking at a secondary US market that offered no European international service because at the time, LH was satisfied with their PDX venture and how the route proved the need for an international airline to a market that usually is shadowed by a larger/closer market (SEA) and the need for growth in the shadowed community, and I'm forgetting what market they were interested in. Offhand, I want to say from memory it was in the southern/midwest region, but I can't find any of my notes that I took when she took us to the airport and around the LH facilities during my last Germany visit.

As for this though, LH has created its own niche in the CLT market, and the A333 is most likely a parallel to customer service vs. the A340 while I'm sure operating costs are much lower.

LH will I'm sure start to review their US operations and yield management with the market about to heat up as Air Berlin is in the midst of purchasing LTU. Air Berlin has made it clear that LTU's international product will be used to change the demographics of the German international products offered. Once the purchase is completed and operations integrated while still flying the 2 airlines, I think Air Berlin will definitely hit the US market using the LTU resources and try to stir the pot internationally as they have already done throughtout Germany
 
SailorOrion
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:13 pm

LH has changed their fleet policy in 2007. Until then all the aircraft were practically based in FRA, and a bunch of them was temporarily based in MUC. Aircraft were regularly swapped between FRA and MUC by putting them on regular FRA-MUC flights.

Now, MUC has its own (long-haul) fleet, consisting of 20 aircraft:

7 34D (A340-600 with 8/60/234), those being D-AIHM through D-AIHR iirc, One is always on standby.
5 34Q (A340-300 with 8/36/197) and
6 34P (A340-300 with 8/48/165) those being D-AI[FD|FE|FF|GM|GN|GO|GP|GR|GS|GT|GX]
one A34Q is always on standby, should some plane go tech. 3 of the 34Q are to be converted to 34P by September.
2 33M (A330-300 wih 8/48/165) those being D-AIKI for MUC-CLT and D-AIKJ for MUC-IAD.

Rumor has it that LH is basing 33M in MUC in order to keep the MUC-based A340/330 crews proficient on that type of aircraft.

So either CLT was moved from a 34Q to a 33M, which would be an "upgrade" (not from a capacity point of view, but from a yield point of view), or it was moved from a 34P to a 33M, which simply is a change in the number of engines, because the interior is identical.

Hope this helps,

SailorOrion
 
at777
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 24):
what about US ? I would have thought that they would have been the most obvious international carrier at CLT or don't you consider CLT-LGW / CLT-FRA / CLT-Caribbean / CLT- Canada / CLT-Central America / CLT-MEX etc to be international flights

I know USAirways is an International carrier. What I was talking about is another international carrier. Like for instance, AF, BA, MX.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting AT777 (Reply 32):
I know USAirways is an International carrier. What I was talking about is another international carrier. Like for instance, AF, BA, MX.

CLT isn't that big. The metro area is just slightly larger than Milwaukee, for instance, and they have no international carriers. There have been persistent rumors about MX, but they are the only carrier we are likely to see.

Folks seem to be assuming that the move the a 333 is an aircraft performance downgrade, but I'm not sure that's true. LH has some loooooong (painful) takeoff rolls on 36L in the summer, and I wonder if the 333 might be a better fit in terms of takeoff performance in the hot (though not especially high) Charlotte air.
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SailorOrion
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:26 am

Well, I'm not sure what the takeoff performance of the 333 versus the 343 is, but the 343s fly out of MUC with 1500' elevation without much hassle, but then again, there's 3123 feet more runway. But even a full payload, the 4000nm for CLT-MUC (still air distance being even less) should be possible. Then again, 36L has an upward slope of significance, which doesn't really help  Smile

SailorOrion
 
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CV880
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:00 am

If CLT were to extend RW 5-23 to the end of the new 18-36W, that wouldn't ever be a problem, would it?
 
Viscount724
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting AT777 (Thread starter):
I've seen that LH has stopped sending the A343 and started the A333.
Is this the beginning of the end for LH at CLT?

Why do you consider that a downgrade? The 343 and 333 are basically the same aircraft apart from the engines and obviously the longer range of the 343, which isn't needed FRA-CLT. Both types have the same fuselage thus seating capacity should be almost identical depending on the configuration. LH can probably make better use of the 343's range on another route.
 
steeler83
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 36):
The 343 and 333 are basically the same aircraft apart from the engines and obviously the longer range of the 343, which isn't needed FRA-CLT. Both types have the same fuselage thus seating capacity should be almost identical depending on the configuration.

Right. I believe the general configuration of an A343 is 2X4X2 in coach. I looked at US' configuration for the A333, and it's the same...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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LTU932
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
Folks seem to be assuming that the move the a 333 is an aircraft performance downgrade, but I'm not sure that's true. LH has some loooooong (painful) takeoff rolls on 36L in the summer, and I wonder if the 333 might be a better fit in terms of takeoff performance in the hot (though not especially high) Charlotte air.

If US can successfully operate the A333 out of CLT to FRA and/or MUC, then LH shouldn't have problems with them as well. In fact, LH's A333s may perform a bit better than US's, as they are operated with Trent 700 engines, which should have more thrust available than the PW4168A engines on US's A333s.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):

If US can successfully operate the A333 out of CLT to FRA and/or MUC, then LH shouldn't have problems with them as well. In fact, LH's A333s may perform a bit better than US's, as they are operated with Trent 700 engines, which should have more thrust available than the PW4168A engines on US's A333s.

Correct. I'm wondering if the 333 will actually have better runway performance than did the 343 in the summer.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
SailorOrion
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:54 pm

LH's 330 and 33M layout: (330 = A330-300 based in FRA, 33M = A330-300 based in MUC iirc)
http://www.lufthansa.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_436139.pdf

LH's 34P layout: (A340-300 with large C class, MUC based):
http://www.lufthansa.com/cdautils/mediapool/media_436088.pdf

SailorOrion
 
md90fan
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RE: The End Of LH At CLT?

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 18):

what shocks me is that Bahamasair doesn't offer some flights to CLT on their medal since they codeshare with US.. but, I wonder a lot of stuff.. so oh well..

Not really bro  redflag 

Considering US runs 14 weekly flights on the route, with UP codesharing as well.

Besides if UP expands to the US again, you will see more Family Islands-Florida service or maybe a return to Newark.

 checkmark 
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