tonytifao
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:50 pm

A.net

I was just wondering if that dim button on the 787 window will be standard or optional? Also, how does that work? If you guys don't know what I'm talking about, visit the Boeing 787 site.

Thanks,
Tony
 
N231YE
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Tonytifao (Thread starter):
Also, how does that work?

By use of liquid crystal displays.
 
DfwRevolution
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:59 pm

Last I checked: standard feature
 
phoenixflyer
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:22 pm

The windows work by applying an electrical force on the LCD which cause the molecules to line up and the glass becomes clear. As soon as the electrical force is removed then the molecules randomize and the window becomes translucent.
 
centrair
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 1):
By use of liquid crystal displays.

That is impressive. How does the layering of windows work so that the outside temp and condensation don't kill conductivity and functionality of the liquid crystals?

Just an idea...wouldn't it be cool if you could make it so your window also could display data? Look out and it shows little signs of what cities you are flying over and their distance from the aircraft. Or when you fly trans-pac and you are over Alaska they identify the mountains, rivers and glaciers for you. Man that would totally rock.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
tonytifao
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:43 pm

This is some very cool technology, but do you think this could cause lots of maintenance if the LCD start to mafunction and break?
 
DfwRevolution
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
How does the layering of windows work so that the outside temp and condensation don't kill conductivity and functionality of the liquid crystals?

The electro-chromatic filter will be placed between the window glass and the safety glass.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):

Just an idea...wouldn't it be cool if you could make it so your window also could display data?

It would be very cool, but many many orders of magnitude beyond the capability of an electro-chromatic dimming system. The window dimmers are simply displaying a uniform, solid color under the command of a relativly simple control mechanism. To display information on the screen, you are basically talking about a Heads-Up Display (HUD) at every single seat row...

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 5):
This is some very cool technology, but do you think this could cause lots of maintenance if the LCD start to mafunction and break?

The objective is actually a maintenance reduction since the system has virtually no moving parts. If the system does prove buggy, I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing go back to conventional window shades.

[Edited 2007-04-11 06:46:32]
 
rwessel
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
Just an idea...wouldn't it be cool if you could make it so your window also could display data? Look out and it shows little signs of what cities you are flying over and their distance from the aircraft. Or when you fly trans-pac and you are over Alaska they identify the mountains, rivers and glaciers for you. Man that would totally rock

Yes it would - a personal HUD in each window seat.

Unfortunately the dimmer in question is going to be a single very large monochrome "pixel" covering the whole window (it might actually be several large segments). The color LCD on your laptop has millions of individual LCD shutters (three for each pixel), each of which is separately addressed and driven by the display hardware.
 
WestJetYQQ
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:53 pm

Hey, If any of y'all go to Boeing's Future of Flight Museum, the mock up of the 787 fuselage is rather disappointing. The windows are very large, like the ones on the real aircraft, but the tint doesn't work, the seats are arranged like in a ski lounge rather than in an airplane and you can even sit in them. I was not impressed. I'm sure the crystal tinting systems in the real plane will be well working, but don't bother with the ones in the mock-up!  Wink

Cheers
Carson
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
ikramerica
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:44 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
The objective is actually a maintenance reduction since the system has virtually no moving parts. If the system does prove buggy, I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing go back to conventional window shades.

These simple LCDs don't tend to break. I've seen 25 year old LCD pocket calculators, for example, still work despite age and wear. And LCD based timers/lap clocks at tracks and pools, despite being in humid environments, also seem to work forever.

These aren't like the LCDs you use in computer monitors, which are more complex.

But I'd ask QF mechanics if they have trouble with the ones they have in the lavs of their 744s. They use the same technology. In that use, they "open" when you unlock the door, and "shut" when you lock it, though there's also a manual button to "open" it when you are inside.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Glareskin
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
And LCD based timers/lap clocks at tracks and pools, despite being in humid environments, also seem to work forever.

Some of these older technologies are in LED not LCD. This is by the way also a technology with a new future.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
Geo772
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
But I'd ask QF mechanics if they have trouble with the ones they have in the lavs of their 744s. They use the same technology. In that use, they "open" when you unlock the door, and "shut" when you lock it, though there's also a manual button to "open" it when you are inside.

I may not be QF, but BA has an LCD window in one of the first toilets on the 744s. Although it had a few problems early on it has proven to be very reliable in service.

I would expect the system on the 787 to be extremely reliable from the outset.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
eburon
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Phoenixflyer (Reply 3):
The windows work by applying an electrical force on the LCD which cause the molecules to line up and the glass becomes clear. As soon as the electrical force is removed then the molecules randomize and the window becomes translucent.

If the default is to have electrical power keep the window clear, what happens if power is lost (ie an accident) where safety crews would need to look inside? Could it be the other way around (no power = clear window)?
 
474218
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting Phoenixflyer (Reply 3):
The windows work by applying an electrical force on the LCD which cause the molecules to line up and the glass becomes clear. As soon as the electrical force is removed then the molecules randomize and the window becomes translucent.



Quoting Eburon (Reply 12):
If the default is to have electrical power keep the window clear, what happens if power is lost (ie an accident) where safety crews would need to look inside? Could it be the other way around (no power = clear window)?

From the aPPG web site:

Electrochomic technology uses electricity to DARKEN an electrically conductive medium between two layers of glass. Turning off the electricity BLEACHES, or LIGHTENS the medium.
 
ikramerica
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 10):
Some of these older technologies are in LED not LCD. This is by the way also a technology with a new future.

Dude, I know the difference between an LED (a LIGHT) and an LCD. I am talking about the LCD ones. They aren't as common anymore.

Tracks and swimming pools often used large LCD timers, no backlight, for training because they are low power and other technology at the time was problematic (unreliable lights, or wobbly mechanical clocks). They remain on 24/7 in many facilities. I've not seen one fail myself. In scoreboards they often used iridescent additive to the liquid to give it a green tint especially under the lighting at pools (gas discharge and flourescents, mostly), but many were just straight dark grey which is harder to read.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Rheinbote
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:44 am

Had a talk to a Boeing marketing rep and he confirmed the failure mode is 'open'. Question is what happens in case the electrochromic shade fails early into the flight? Would the cabin crew issue sunshade stickers to comfort/protect adjacent passengers?

The showpiece in Boeing's pavillon at Paris Airshow in 2005 had quit functioning only a few hours into the show.  duck 
 
JetboyTWA
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:26 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Lockheed L-1011 have a similar window-shade feature when it first rolled out in the 1970s?

Ryan
 
mptpa
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
That is impressive. How does the layering of windows work so that the outside temp and condensation don't kill conductivity and functionality of the liquid crystals?

An electrical current is applied to "polarize" the LCD which is trapped between 2 layers of the glass. Some polarization need just the current to switch as opposed to continuous power.

I did a light-gun design which used something called "lightvalve" which had 3 layers of dyed Liquid crystal (red and green). When red is agitated, it non-aligns, and makes that layer clear at the same time green is non-alined so the cof the lightvalve is green. The opposite makes the color red. When both are aligned, color is clear, and when both are mis-aligned the color is black (ie no light seen). This light gun was designed to be used in control towers with close to a million candlepower intensity focused within 3 degrees (be able to be seen 2 miles away). The cool thing was it had no moving parts, but it was unworkable because the red dye available 5 years ago was not within the FAA mandated color spectrum. Anyway, thought someone may be interested....
 
Type-Rated
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:19 am

Yes, the L-1011 did have this feature, but it used different technology.
How the L-1011 windows worked was there was a piece of polarized glass between the window and the interior glass. When you turned the knob, it turned the polarized filter either fully "in synch" with the interior pane (open) or 180 degrees out of synch (closed). Polarization is the feature used in sunglasses to remove glare, like you see on top of water during the daytime.
This system didn't last long. Within a few years all were replaced with window shades. I flew on EA's L-1011 a few weeks after it entered service, and I was amazed by how the windows worked. With all the features that plane had, no wonder they called it "The Most Advanced Jetliner In The Sky".
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
EI321
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:26 am

Will the aircraft still have proper shades? I hope so.
 
DfwRevolution
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Question About a Feature on the 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
Will the aircraft still have proper shades? I hope so.

For the time being, there will be no shade. What difference does it make? The electro-chromatic filters will turn completely opaque if desired.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Question About A Feature On The 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:21 am

One issue I can think of is when a 787 needs to be stored outside, either short-term (i.e. pre-delivery) or long-term (i.e. the desert). Currently, window shades are usually closed when an aircraft is stored. But since stored aircraft aren't using electricity, wouldn't the 787 windows be clear? I'd imagine that they'd have to use a black plastic wrap or something and tape it down the row of windows if they didn't want the cabin bleached in the sun during storage.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
EI321
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RE: Question About A Feature On The 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 19):
Will the aircraft still have proper shades? I hope so.

For the time being, there will be no shade. What difference does it make? The electro-chromatic filters will turn completely opaque if desired.

There are times on a plane when you dont want light coming through the window at all, when you want to sleep!
 
boeingfixer
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RE: Question About A Feature On The 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 22):
There are times on a plane when you dont want light coming through the window at all, when you want to sleep!

http://www.dictionary.net/opaque

Not to worry, the LCD dimmed windows will completely block the light.

Cheers,

John
Cheers, John YYC
 
gigneil
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RE: Question About A Feature On The 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:38 am

There is a bar in New York City that has bathroom doors that utilize this technology.... its called Bar 89, its on Mercer.  Smile

NS
 
HughesAirwest
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RE: Question About A Feature On The 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 8):

I was just at Boeing's Future of Flight Museum last week and the window did work. It was a little slower than I expected it did work an I am impressed. With the volume of people, including children, that tour the facility daily I can understand why things need a little TLC sometimes. I am sure if you reported it, Boeing will get the window fixed.

I just flew back to Japan this week and not being able to look out the window during the flight to respect those around me who wanted to sleep or watch a movie, it killed me. Looking out the window allows me to relax and helps me think about upcoming events. With the new window, it will allow you look out the window at less intensity and still respect those around you. From what I understand the FA will have a master over-ride button to dim the windows for reasons stated above.
"One man practicing Teamwork is far better than fifty preaching it."
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: Question About A Feature On The 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 8):
Hey, If any of y'all go to Boeing's Future of Flight Museum, the mock up of the 787 fuselage is rather disappointing.

Yeah it is! I went there over Christmas and it seemed like everything in that museum was pretty much made of plastic. That 747 tail was fairly impressive though. The best part of that place was the gift shop...

About the windows though, I think that passengers are going to absolutely love them if Boeing can get them to work right. If Boeing can't get them to work right, then that could be a huge pain, much like the A380 wiring. I'd hate to see window shades on those big 787 windows!
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
Glareskin
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RE: Question About A Feature On The 787's Windows

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:29 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Dude, I know the difference between an LED (a LIGHT) and an LCD.

I didn't question your knowledge, DUDE. I was merely pointing out that both LED and LCD are older technologies with a lot of new applications. Although dimming windows isn't as new anymore.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...

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