raventom
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Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:28 am

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1637270.ece

Has any one else heard of this idea?

Would anyone want to sit facing backwards?

How woud people in the middle get out?
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mustang304
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:03 am

There is a picture at Flight Global:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...aunched-at-aircraft-interiors.html

It is pretty clever, however, you'd have to be creative in assigning seat numbers to prevent confusion. Sitting backwards would be OK, however, the seats would need to be designed to handle a whole lot more stress in the structure. Also you wouldn't be protected from flying objects in a RTO or emergency situation.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:28 am

Nobody will bite on this idea. Customers will revolt if it's put in, and go to other carriers who don't have it. It's not the same as the reverse J class, which plenty of people already hate.

"By saving on the armrest space an extra seat could be fitted in each row. A Boeing 777 could have ten-abreast seating instead of nine-abreast, allowing an extra 21 seats."

It already can...
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Viscount724
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
"By saving on the armrest space an extra seat could be fitted in each row. A Boeing 777 could have ten-abreast seating instead of nine-abreast, allowing an extra 21 seats."

It already can...

But with narrower seats. The reason BA's J Club World configuration has the forward/backward seats is because they wouldn't fit 8-abreast if they all faced forward. The area where your feet go doesn't have to be as wide as the seat itself, so they can use a couple of inches of the foot/leg area for the adjacent seat.

Sitting backwards in the currrent BA J layout isn't a problem for me. I've done it 2 or 3 times on full flights although I prefer the aisle seats facing forward. But I know many people like the window seats and don't mind facing backwards. My main concern re this Y class concept would be the loss of privacy, i.e. having to look at the passenger next to you, and if there was a privacy screen on both sides it would seem like you were sitting in a box. On the other hand the additional 2 inches or so of seat pitch would be an improvement.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:44 am

enables their shoulders to overlap, minimising the width of an armrest between each occupant".

That is the same way they pack sardines.  Yeah sure  crowded 
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cloudboy
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:45 am

Ultimately you would have someone's shoulders sitting a foot in front of you, which is very awkward. You also would still beable to see enough enough of your neighbor that you feel like you are staring at them at too close a comfortable distance.

I think that reverse facing really never catches on enough for people to really like it. Most plaes, particularly smaller ones, fly with a small angle of attack. To some people this can get a bit discomforting, not everyone, but enough to be disuasive.

On the other hand, the rest of the set design I really like. I have always wondered if there is a reason seat backs aren't higher than they are now.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
iowa744fan
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:04 am

Hmmm...two questions come to mind.

1. If Emirates adopts this for their 777s.....will we only see 11 seats across?

2. How long before we at the airlines think to ourselves.....2 extra inches of pitch.....I bet that we could move the seats closer together and add another row....followed by if we move them closer again, we could get two rows....the window seat can still squeeze around the middle seat.
 
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keesje
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:18 am

Theoretical question who be: who would prefer the seat knowing it is safer & seatprice is ~10 % lower.

Southwest had them 20 yrs ago, fun with collegeas / friends family, otherwise...

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Jammin
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:43 am

Interesting idea. I like it. But it does break up the seating of like a couple or a group of friends, but as they say, it might work for parents with kids.

Your neighbor would definitely be too close to your face, privacy screen or not. I'm sure they're going to run some real trials with passengers in a cabin for a few hours to see how they cope.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
Nobody will bite on this idea.

Oh, and one should never easily dismiss innovation. As you know, people mocked the idea of a television when it was first revealed...  Big grin

[Edited 2007-04-11 22:45:18]
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atnight
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Sitting backwards in the currrent BA J layout isn't a problem for me.

I was planning on asking about it... how is BA's backwards seats on take-off? I mean, how exactly do you strap? One thing is having a regular seatbelt when you face foward, but as you take off don't you need a different type of seat belt (like the F/As have on their backward seats)? Thanks for the info...
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Viscount724
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Sitting backwards in the currrent BA J layout isn't a problem for me.

I was planning on asking about it... how is BA's backwards seats on take-off? I mean, how exactly do you strap? One thing is having a regular seatbelt when you face foward, but as you take off don't you need a different type of seat belt (like the F/As have on their backward seats)? Thanks for the info...

It's just the standard seatbelt. No shoulder harnesses etc. like flight attendant jump seats.
 
helvknight
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting Atnight (Reply 9):
was planning on asking about it... how is BA's backwards seats on take-off? I mean, how exactly do you strap? One thing is having a regular seatbelt when you face foward, but as you take off don't you need a different type of seat belt (like the F/As have on their backward seats)? Thanks for the info...

It's actually the normal lap belt but the seats do not use a normal bolt upright position for take off and landing, instead you are somewhat reclined, whether you are going forwards or backwards.

I would certainly agree with the privacy consideration, both cases my seatmate and I agreed to close the divider (like an old fashioned fan). A pity on the way out, she was quite hot.
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keesje
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:44 am

Another thing BA found out: serving meals (placing the foodtray / drink in front of a passenger) won´t get easier / faster for a person sitting in a window seat, imagine.. those are real operational concerns..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
Another thing BA found out: serving meals (placing the foodtray / drink in front of a passenger) won´t get easier / faster for a person sitting in a window seat, imagine.. those are real operational concerns..

Wow, good question! I think the idea stinks and will refuse to fly any airline that has it. Just think, you are in the direct path of a sneeze.
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Jpax
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:02 am

That is horrendous. The entire flight would be so awkward because the other persons face would be diagonal of your own facing you. Sure, there are 'blinds' for the line of sight so you dont see the other person, but just facing them from a diagonal is a completely awkward situation. The arm rest, too, would be interesting to use.
 
pacifica
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:34 am

honestly as innovative and creative as this idea is, it has too many operational constraints to be useful in an airline setting. but it does get you thinking that maybe there are better ways to arrange aircraft seats on a plane than we currently do.

one thing that definitely caught my eye though...those seats actually look really appealing to me, especially with the privacy screen/headrest that wraps around the sides. i wonder if any airline would consider adding some of those to their current seats, as it would make sleeping on the plane alot easier (no worries of accidentally leaning on your seatmate, etc)...
 
flamedude707
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:56 am

Personally, I think this is a horrible idea. You will, even with the pathetic privacy screens, be staring at your neighbor. Would you rather be face to face with another passenger, or spare a few inches of legroom. I would definitely not fly on an airline with that configuration.
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cloudboy
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:10 am

Don't forget about the elbows, either. The whole attraction for this design is that it allows an extra column of seats. To do that, they have to make the seat narrower - in this case you loose the armrest space. While the armrest takes up space between two passengers, that is only the space for the depth of the armrest. The seat cushion itself is the total distance between the two. In this design, the seat itself will be narrower by the width of the armrest. Not only that, but to make up for the necessary shoulder room, your shoulder is now going to be sticking in front of the passenger next to you. Is that any more room, when you actually have someone's arms sticking in front of you?

The more I look at this, the more I see so many problems. I mean, it's very creative, but I really, really see a whole slew of issues if the release it, particularly if the airlines don't actually say that these seats are narrower.
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ikramerica
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
The area where your feet go doesn't have to be as wide as the seat itself, so they can use a couple of inches of the foot/leg area for the adjacent seat.

That's not what they are doing. They are creating an environment where the middle seat will have two shoulders in your face, and where leaning forward will disturb two people, and where there's a whole new meaning to excuse me.

In J, there's just a lot more space to do this, so it's less intrusive. In Y, it'll be disturbing.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
My main concern re this Y class concept would be the loss of privacy, i.e. having to look at the passenger next to you,

Next to you and on diagonals. I will never fly an airline who uses these seats. Period.

Quoting Jammin (Reply 8):
Oh, and one should never easily dismiss innovation.

Not every new idea is an innovation!

But people are people and you won't get 100% of the flying public to take to this. Most passengers will NOT "sit still" for this configuration on a long haul flight, and since the design impacts every Y customer on the plane, it'll flop.

And it does little good on a short haul narrowbody aircraft.
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Devilfish
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 7):
Theoretical question who be: who would prefer the seat knowing it is safer & seatprice is ~10 % lower.

Ryanair would love it for their planned no-frills A350 or B787 across the Atlantic! As for the passengers, it would come with their choice of flying FR.

Maybe a bit crowded, though somewhat a welcome arrangement if you're lucky enough to be in the middle of four hot chicks. OTOH, a very bad situation with four burly guys instead.  Wink

[Edited 2007-04-12 04:41:44]
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BFS
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:09 am

Seems a bit of a nightmare to me, at least in terms of inflight service. Although BA's Club World cabin has this set-up, in that cabin crew only have to serve a max of 48 passengers (on the 777), and you can take my word for it that passing those meal trays through the privacy screens so many times is a hassle. I shudder to think how it would be with 300 Y-class pax staring at you (in opposite directions).

I think there is a safety aspect to this too - imagine an evacuation with everyone jumping out of their seats and trying to run in different directions.
 
exFATboy
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:55 am

It'll never be accepted as a coach configuration - in BA's business class, the problems are mitigated by privacy screens and the simple fact that you have lots of space.

Also, some people - I'm one, and a few of my co-workers have voiced the same opinion - find it very disturbing on take-off. I actually get slightly nauseuatet - I have no idea why, but I do, and I normally don't have problems with air sickness.
 
N751PR
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:16 am

I'm currently here in HAM attending AIE and was able to check out Freedom. Here's a few pics that I took of the concept model. Enjoy.  Smile













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Rj111
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:53 am

What an appaling idea. Can you imagin having to half-face someone you don't know for 14 hours - talk about awkward eye contact. And how the hell are you supposed to get out without being some kind of buddist yoga master?
 
mayhem
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 19):
Ryanair would love it for their planned no-frills A350 or B787 across the Atlantic! As for the passengers, it would come with their choice of flying FR.

Maybe a bit crowded, though somewhat a welcome arrangement if you're lucky enough to be in the middle of four hot chicks. OTOH, a very bad situation with four burly guys instead. Wink

FR is indeed one of the only companies i see opting for these seats. If they want to offer a € 12 transatlantic flight, well then it could be that you're in one of those seats... For a UK-east coast flight of 6-7 hours, it might be bearable if you pay such a price...

But i must say that the day i do a transatlantic flight facing backwards is still far away... Unless someone offers me to sit upfront on BA  Smile
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:54 am

Big version: Width: 300 Height: 201 File size: 23kb
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Lemurs
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:30 am

Well spoken by a bunch of people sitting and looking at pictures. I am not saying you're wrong, but if you're certain you're going to hate it before you even plant your butt in the seat, you're pretty much going to hate it because you want to.

I'd be interested in at least seeing how it feels and looks before dismissing it out of hand. Some more shoulder room and extra pitch certainly can't be much WORSE than the middle seat in a current 3-3 layout.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
cloudboy
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:11 am

Second picture down. Look at the guy's elbow. THAT'S why this idea doesn't work. It squished the seats together by getting rid of the elbow room. But the elbows have to go somewhere. Now they get stuck in your neighbors side.

If you had the staggered seat design, then your elbow is sitting behind the seat next to you. Hope they don't decide to suddenly tilt their seat back, or open the tray table.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:32 pm

So you really would want to have to stare at two strangers face to face! Atleast in normal seating you can mind your business.
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Lemurs
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 27):
Second picture down. Look at the guy's elbow. THAT'S why this idea doesn't work. It squished the seats together by getting rid of the elbow room. But the elbows have to go somewhere. Now they get stuck in your neighbors side.

Huh? Sure your elbows move into the next space a bit, but at least, with your elbows down in their natural position at your side, you BOTH get elbow room since that position is offset. Compare this to the current layout where you have to get into a passive-agressive fight with the person next to you about who gets the natural elbow resting position for your shared armrest. The end positions get one uncontested elbow a piece, and the middle can get none...

Again, I'm not saying it's great until I try it, but I am amazed anyone could think the current 3-abreast is the best possible solution for elbow room for everyone.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
iwok
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 23):
What an appaling idea. Can you imagin having to half-face someone you don't know for 14 hours - talk about awkward eye contact. And how the hell are you supposed to get out without being some kind of buddist yoga master?

Other than a great excuse for "upskirt" cams, the idea is total garbage. Pretty soon they'll be having us sitting in these...



iwok
 
gffgold
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:24 pm

Perhaps lie the pax flat and stack them 4 high and you'll save floor space that way...or maybe vacuum pack the...

No, no, no, no, no. You'll never get me to fly in those seats if I had a choice. And to the guy who said words to the effect of 'how can you condemn it until you've tried it' , I say: coprophagy.
 
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Vasu
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:45 pm

I think I've gone off the idea after seeing photos of it...

Just a lot more cramped than I'd imagined it to be!
 
anax
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:14 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 25):

lol @ Airfoilsguy !
god is a spotter!!!
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: Window Seat, Aisle Or Back-to-front Sir?

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 18):
there's a whole new meaning to excuse me.

Ewwwwwww!!!!!

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