MSYtristar
Topic Author
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MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:52 am

I was snooping around Air Canada's chunk of the web a few minutes ago and I noticed that our fair city is still listed on the interactive route map for the U.S. Of course, there's no line connecting it to YYZ anymore, but the city is still listed. And no, it's not because it's a code share city. You'd think that after a year and a half of not serving the market AC would at least have the decency to remove it from its route map. It took TA about six months to take MSY off of its route map, and we were quickly gone from F9's and YX's. So AC, I suggest this.

Please restore service to YYZ at some point this year, or if y'all have no intention to, please remove us from your route map and let the memories of the glory days down here fade into the past.

Thank you.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:11 pm

And for those of you who don't know, AC had nearly a 7-year stint here....10/98 to 8/05. A relatively short but sweet run.

AC service to New Orleans started in October 1998 to much fanfare. Initial service was a daily DC-9-30 to YYZ.


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Photo © Thomas Moore



After the AC/CP merger, AC decided to send CP to do the MSY turns. Daily 737-200 service replaced the AC DC-9. Double daily service ( 1x 732, 1x 319) was planned, but never flown. This hybrid aircraft was commonplace here for some time.


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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



Eventually, AC replaced the 732 with a 319. It stayed as such for several years, sometimes being upgraded to a 320 during peak seasons.


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Photo © Andy P. Jung



For the last year of its existence, give or take a couple of months, the service was flown with AC Jazz CRJ-200 aircraft. The flight was weight restricted quite often, usually only able to carry 35 passenger on the roughly 2.5 hour flight. In Summer '05 the route was seeing a mix of CRA's and CRJ's (and even a few 319's again), perhaps signifying a new upgrade in service which was sorely lacking in the market. Of course, that all changed on 8/29/05. And the rest, as they say, is history.


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Photo © Jay Davis

 
c0ex
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:25 pm

Could it be that it is servered by there partner United? Sometimes airlines will put the destinations that there partners only serve. I know CO does that.
theRightchoice
 
MattRB
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:34 pm

It's odd. I'm just checking the map and there are a few places like that (GRR, RIC, CHS, DAY).

Perhaps service might be coming back in the short term as a seasonal deal (hopefully on a E75 instead of the CR2/CRA) and that's why they haven't yet removed it from the map.

Could always drop an email to Customer Service and see if they could find out why it's still there.

Don't know if this could play any part in it:

Some routes or destinations served by Air Canada may not appear on this map due to seasonal service. Routes are subject to change based on demand or seasonal requirements.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
c0ex
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 3):
Some routes or destinations served by Air Canada may not appear on this map due to seasonal service. Routes are subject to change based on demand or seasonal requirements.

thats probally the reason. If the numbers start to pick up, there will probally be a daily flight with a crj-200
theRightchoice
 
N1120A
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:05 pm

Quoting C0ex (Reply 2):
Could it be that it is servered by there partner United?

Not unless you connect.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
and let the memories of the glory days down here fade into the past.

....depressed sweetie? I feel ya.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 1):
Double daily service ( 1x 732, 1x 319) was planned, but never flown.

Planned twice, made it into the schedules once-- and then came SARS.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 3):

Perhaps service might be coming back in the short term as a seasonal deal (hopefully on a E75 instead of the CR2/CRA) and that's why they haven't yet removed it from the map.

Some moron was on here a while back talking about YYZ EMBjet service, as well as YUL and YYC. Remember who that was Steve?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
bmacleod
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:18 am

The E75 would be ideal for YYZ-MSY provided AC sees a sustainable market for it.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Tom in NO
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 1):
For the last year of its existence, give or take a couple of months, the service was flown with AC Jazz CRJ-200 aircraft.

They also graced us a few times with CRJ-700's.

We had an ERJ-175 IAH diversion in here a few months back, so at least we know they still exist  wink 

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 8):
so at least we know they still exist

...or most likely, vice versa
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
WNCrew
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:01 am

Does MSY have the demand to fulfill everyone's dreams of all of these airlines returning to their pre-katrina levels? Seriously I read SOOOO much whining on this board about how airline X had abandoned MSY or how airline Y shafted the MSY market for this other market. It's business! New Orleans is NOT the end-all-be-all destination of the US where everyone should fly to. Stop the whining and accept things for what they are, reality.

And before someone goes OFF on me attacking their home, I am from Louisiana. Born in Jennings, went to elementary in N.O and Lake Charles, went to Middle school in Buras, graduated Highschool in Houma and my family still lives there.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 10):
And before someone goes OFF on me attacking their home, I am from Louisiana.

...and that abstains you from (regional/operational) ignorance how?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
N353SK
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 10):
I read SOOOO much whining on this board about how airline X had abandoned MSY or how airline Y shafted the MSY market for this other market.

And I've read SOOOO much more complaining from people saying the exact same things as you  Yeah sure
 
WNCrew
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:24 am

I just don't get WHY people complain about the "emotional" side of air services and NOT remember the operational side. Airlines go where there is money....PERIOD. People ascribe this attitude to the airlines as if they're "neglecting" poor ole' MSY. But that's clearly not how it works. That's not to say it doesn't SUCK, or it doesn't make people mad that things arent the way they were but no sense in acting as if the airlines are abandoning some great GOLD pot! They're not, they're simply going where they can make money and reinstating service as they see fiscally and operationaly feasible.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
WNCrew
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):

...and that abstains you from (regional/operational) ignorance how?

We're ALL ignorant. I never professed to be an airport manager. I'm just pointing out that people seem to have their emotions involved where emotions don't fit in.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 14):
I'm just pointing out that people seem to have their emotions involved where emotions don't fit in.

...apparently, yourself included.

In such a rush to criticize (or worse "analyze", or at least, poorly attempt thereto) that you base your argument nigh solely on the action of a single airline; while seeming to forget that every one of the carriers who've matched/exceeded their pre-Katrina status here are not only exceptionally adept at right-sizing market patronage, but also..................wait on it.................. PROFITABLE.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
MSYtristar
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 10):
New Orleans is NOT the end-all-be-all destination of the US where everyone should fly to. Stop the whining and accept things for what they are, reality.

Dude, two things.

1) I certainly have never claimed MSY to be the end-all-be-all destination of the U.S. Neither has N1120A, Tom in NO, ConcordeBoy, or MSYguy. Where are you getting that one from?

2) Who the $%&# is whining? I was reminiscing, not whining. Besides, us still being on AC's route map interested me, no more, no less.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 16):
Neither has N1120A

...she's still around??
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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longhauler
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:29 am

I was at a Flight Operations meeting a few weeks back, and a question was raised: "With 2 E190s a month being delivered, where exactly will they be going?"

There were many routes mentioned, some that stuck in my mind, and remember, they are just rumour at this point, were: YYZ-ONT, YYZ-AND CURRENT: Austin - Bergstrom International (AFB) (AUS / KBSM), USA - Texas">AUS and YYZ-MSY!

It was also mentioned though, that it may be that YYZ-SAN is on its last legs. It just doesn't have the numbers to support the A319, and while the passengers raved about the E190, it is just slightly beyond the capability of the aircraft to carry 93 passengers AND their bags to SAN ... oh well.

[Edited 2007-04-13 03:30:34]
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
san747
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 18):
There were many routes mentioned, some that stuck in my mind, and remember, they are just rumour at this point, were: YYZ-ONT, YYZ-AND CURRENT: Austin - Bergstrom International (AFB) (AUS / KBSM), USA - Texas">AUS and YYZ-MSY!

It was also mentioned though, that it may be that YYZ-SAN is on its last legs. It just doesn't have the numbers to support the A319, and while the passengers raved about the E190, it is just slightly beyond the capability of the aircraft to carry 93 passengers AND their bags to SAN ... oh well.

A restart of YYZ-ONT sounds compelling, I hope if that happens it can last longer than 3 months. The Inland Empire is a lot bigger now, and ONT is developing as a reasonable alternative airport for LA.

I must say though, that last paragraph about SAN is NOT what I like to hear... Can any other SAN person confirm or deny this? ...Anyway, YYZ-SAN is back on the A319, and if you look at the flight history-

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA779/history (YYZ-SAN)
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ACA780/history (SAN-YYZ)

They even subbed in an A320 last week.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
hockey55dude
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:23 pm

I don't know the numbers, But when I flew YYZ-SAN it was packed. It was an OK flight.
 
san747
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Hockey55dude (Reply 20):

I don't know the numbers, But when I flew YYZ-SAN it was packed. It was an OK flight.

Was it the E-190 or an A319? I've heard the E-190s are great comfort and IFE-wise.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
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longhauler
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:43 pm

The A319 is now flying YYZ-SAN-YYZ for the summer. Not for increased passenger loads, but due to restrictions placed on the E190. Remember, full flights are not necessarily profitable flights. Apparently the decision is pending on whether YYZ-SAN-YYZ continues past the Autumn this year.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
FLYACYYZ
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AC//77W Being Fast-tracked Into Revenue Service

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:46 pm

YYZ-SAN-YYZ needs to adjust its departure/arrival times reminiscent of the original schedule & similar to the YYZ-SEA-YYZ schedule. Evening departure ex YYZ, and morning departure ex SAN to increase connection opportunities to Europe and Tel Aviv.

What is it with AC and Austin, TX?? On its original go-around loads were abysmal. I think on the heels of DFW & IAH, SAT would be the next logical destination in Texas--great tourist and convention destination.

There are still a large number of passengers who fly YYZ-LAX and drive to PSP. ONT would succeed if marketed properly, and promoted as an alternative gateway to PSP.

[Edited 2007-04-13 16:50:00]
Above and Beyond
 
MSYguy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 13):
I just don't get WHY people complain about the "emotional" side of air services and NOT remember the operational side. Airlines go where there is money....PERIOD. People ascribe this attitude to the airlines as if they're "neglecting" poor ole' MSY. But that's clearly not how it works. That's not to say it doesn't SUCK, or it doesn't make people mad that things arent the way they were but no sense in acting as if the airlines are abandoning some great GOLD pot! They're not, they're simply going where they can make money and reinstating service as they see fiscally and operationaly feasible.

I'm sick of this attitude. What you wrongly characterize as "whining" is, in reality, a discussion of the FACTS and a REASONED ARGUMENT. I won't rehash either here. Go look at them from my (and others') prior posts on the topic. If you have a reasoned rebuttal of these facts and arguments, please share it. I'm all for good faith discussion. But STOP accusing me and others falsely of whining and STOP mischaracterizing what we have said.
 
MSYtristar
Topic Author
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 6):
Remember who that was Steve?

If memory serves, his handle was "TIMEAIR".
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 25):
If memory serves, his handle was "TIMEAIR".

hmm, still a (somewhat) active member--- be interested to get a commentary on that "assessment"
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
PExDCA
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 13):
Airlines go where there is money....PERIOD.

There are a lot of people with powder rooms wallpapered in their worthless Braniff, Pan Am, Eastern, Air Florida, Midway, etc. stock certificates who would likey argue that point. In fact, these days some airlines that make a profit on their operations and route structures only do so because of fuel hedges, not necessarily because they make the best choices on routes/service.

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 14):
We're ALL ignorant.

Umm.. Not me.

[Edited 2007-04-14 01:13:26]
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
mainMAN
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 13):
I just don't get WHY people complain about the "emotional" side of air services and NOT remember the operational side.



Quoting WNCrew (Reply 14):
I'm just pointing out that people seem to have their emotions involved where emotions don't fit in.

Is this site just about the sterile operational side of airliners and the airlines that operate them? I don't think so. It's also about connectivity and economic well-being and civic aspiration and tourism and jobs and everything airline routes can tell you about all of this, and this can be a very emotive subject. In my opinion, the fact that MSY has lost AC is plenty to 'moan' about, especially given the exceptional circumstances.

If MSY-YYZ had failed purely dowm to the fact that nobody used it, or enough people used it and paid peanuts for their tickets, then this discussion would probably not have happened.
 
PExDCA
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 16):
I certainly have never claimed MSY to be the end-all-be-all destination of the U.S. Neither has N1120A, Tom in NO, ConcordeBoy, or MSYguy.

I agree... the MSY threads on here have always been based in fact and on first-hand observation. I will also add that given the post-Katrina environment and the unique factors affecting the N.O. area local economy that the MSY air service/facilities discussions are among the most interesting on here and that the incredibly unique factors impacting it make for great discussion/debate. (And for the record, while I am an N.O. supporter, I was not born, nor have I ever lived there.)
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
threepoint
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
...and that abstains you from (regional/operational) ignorance how?

I'm not sure we can question his regional knowledge.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 15):
you base your argument nigh solely on the action of a single airline;

No, he specifically mentioned 'airlines' (plural) at least a half-dozen times.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 6):
sweetie



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 6):
moron

Are these terms of endearment or baited monikers?
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 30):
I'm not sure we can question his regional knowledge.

Newsflash: just did

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 30):
No, he specifically mentioned 'airlines' (plural) at least a half-dozen times.



Quoting WNCrew (Reply 10):
much whining on this board about how airline X had abandoned MSY or how airline Y shafted the MSY market for this other market


...regardless as to how he may view said "whining", such dialogue essentially only revolves around a single airline in question at this airport--- WN.

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 30):
Are these terms of endearment or baited monikers?

Whatever you want 'em to be cher.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
PExDCA
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 30):
Are these terms of endearment or baited monikers?

I'm curious... what kind of bait do you use to catch a moniker? Perhaps a lure would be more effective?  laughing 
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
SANFan
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Thread starter):
I noticed that our fair city is still listed on the interactive route map for the U.S.

I've got a theory for you 'tristar: the person (in charge of the AC route map) who has left MSY ON the map is the same one who has NEVER put SAN on the map! They've been serving San Diego since late 2005 (YVR on Jazz) and early Summer 2006 (YYZ) and have never bothered to show us on the map. It's probably some clerk or janitor who is responsible for up-keeping the map and it's not a real top priority. Doesn't reflect positively on AC if you ask me...

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 23):
YYZ-SAN-YYZ needs to adjust its departure/arrival times reminiscent of the original schedule & similar to the YYZ-SEA-YYZ schedule. Evening departure ex YYZ, and morning departure ex SAN to increase connection opportunities to Europe and Tel Aviv.

As you may or may not know, unfortunately UA handles AC at Lindbergh Field and, from what I understand, despite requests from AC, UA will not, due to their own very busy morning schedule in SAN, give the Canadians gate space when they want and need it for a well-timed YYZ departure. (UA has 8 departures from SAN between 6:30 and 8:30 a.m. at its 5 gates.) The same is true for the YVR service; in fact last summer, Jazz had scheduled 2 Vancouver flights (a morning and a late afternoon) instead of the one mid-day that is still operated, and the plan was scuttled at the last minute (or after only a few days) due to lack of gate availability.

There is no question that the YYZ-SAN-YYZ flight is surviving mostly on YYZ-based O&D plus very few intra-Canada connections (due to the early a.m. YYZ departure and late return arrival) and maybe a few SAN-originating O&D pax. They are missing European connections and many Eastern Canada connections which would probably provide enough traffic to make the flight quite successful.

I was very happy to see the AirBus again flying SAN-YYZ starting April 1 but I figured loads were much better for the summer; I didn't realize the service was in jeopardy. (I know AC was flying the E-190 on the SEA-YYZ and PHX-YYZ routes as well but I guess the stage length wasn't as critical in those cases.)

I don't know how hard AC has tried to make other arrangements at Lindbergh but I do think it would be a real shame if SAN lost one of its 2 foreign flags (the other is AM) because of this apparently un-solvable problem. Come on, SDCRAA, get busy and work something out; losing a large and important portion of our meager, existing int'l routes is NOT your goal!

bb
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:08 am

The SAN connundrum never ceases to amaze me. Any flight I have ever operated whether it be A319 or E190 has been virtually 100% full. Yes, the loads dipped post 9/11, and slightly dip during the winter season, but have the sense that SAN & SEA operate with similar load factors and revenue.

As far as UA goes, AC has switched handling contracts over in many US stations such as DEN/MCO/LAS & DFW to name a few. They are not the only game in town, and am sure that other arrangements could be made if AC did indeed wish to change its departure/arrival times. How about USAirways or if they operate out of SAN -- Penauille-Servisair, Globeground or Swissport?

Many people including myself consider San Diego to be the jewel city of the US, and would hate to see YYZ lose the connection.
Above and Beyond
 
san747
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 34):
As far as UA goes, AC has switched handling contracts over in many US stations such as DEN/MCO/LAS & DFW to name a few. They are not the only game in town, and am sure that other arrangements could be made if AC did indeed wish to change its departure/arrival times. How about USAirways or if they operate out of SAN -- Penauille-Servisair, Globeground or Swissport?

Many people including myself consider San Diego to be the jewel city of the US, and would hate to see YYZ lose the connection.

I wonder that myself... Why doesn't AC move to either another part of Terminal 1, or even better, somewhere in Terminal 2, so that Canadians getting their first impression of San Diego don't have to go through the rathole of T1... Get a contractor to handle them at SAN!
Scotty doesn't know...
 
AAflyguy
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RE: MSY Still On AC Route Map...why?

Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:46 am

I think a nonstop YYZ-PSP during season would be successful, if marketed properly. I certainly hope that this marketing by certain carriers to use ONT as an alternative to PSP will diminish as the popularity of direct service into PSP continues to improve, and proves to be sustainable and viable. My belief is that with the success of the AC Jazz YYC-PSP service, AC will return to PSP next winter and offer more service than it did this past winter, albeit likely staying in Western Canada. However, as the dominant carrier @ YYZ, AC might be wise to initiate nonstop service before WS does so, even on a somewhat less than daily basis to test the true market strength. WS has already stated its intention to increase PSP service in the fall, and I think that will mean daily YVR, daily YYC, and a split daily between YEG and YWG. WS has done incredibly well in PSP, and AC coming in and also being successful speaks to the market potential into PSP from Canada.

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