YLWbased
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Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:16 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9AlGBXD_F4

i hv heard ATC that doesn't understand/speak English, now we got a Air China Pilot that had a difficult time communicating with JFK ground.

enjoy.
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
graphic
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:22 am

Wow. That could be dangerous.
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silentbob
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:25 am

That crew shouldn't be allowed to fly into the US.
 
AirCop
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:43 am

Sounds like nothing has change with Air China. When they first started to fly to SFO back in the late 70's, ATC had to give them extra spacing because of this exact problem, I was flying into SFO from ACV on a United Express E-120 in 93? when we had to missed approached due to Air China just stopping on the runway and not turning as requested to the taxi ways.
 
mustang304
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:03 am

I recently did a tour of the SEA tower, and the joke was made that they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).
 
YLWbased
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 4):
they clear a whole lotta airspace whenever China Airlines arrives

correction, is Air China, not China Airlines.

Air China, Bejing (PEK) based airlines of People's Republic of China (PRC)
China Airlines, Taipei (TPE) based airlines of Republic of China (ROC) aka Taiwan
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
AirCop
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:12 am

javascript:void window.open('http://www.airliners.net/discussions/images.inc','Images','left=50,top=50,width=200,height=250,scrollbars,menubar=no,status=no,resizable=no,toolbar=no');
Add Images
[quote=Mustang304,reply=4]China Airlines arrives (also due to language issues).

Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?  blockhead 
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:12 am

My school (Spartan) used to train Chinese pilots under contract for the airlines over there. They caused so much havoc on the radios I am glad to be rid of them.
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Evan767
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:17 am

Haha, this one is just as bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUnVlyyar4M&mode=related&search=
Very entertaining.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
YLWbased
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:52 am

I think is time to give you guys a clear list of Chinese Carriers, so you guys won't mix up CI with CA again

Major Airlines in People's Republic of China:


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Photo © Weimeng


Air China (CA) - Based: PEK


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Photo © Xiao min


China Eastern (MU) - Based: PVG


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Photo © Pearl su


China Southern (CZ) - Based: CAN


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Photo © Tian Xiaofei


Hainan Airlines (HU) - Based: HAK


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Photo © Scott Lindsell


Shanghai Airlines (FM) - Based: PVG


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Photo © Michael Nikel


Sichuan Airlines (3U) - Based: CTU


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Photo © Islam Chen


Xiamen Airlines (MF) - Based: XMN


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Photo © Weimeng


Okay Airways (BK) - Based: TSN


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Photo © Shenzhe


Shenzhen Airlines (ZH) - Based: SZX


Major Airlines in Republic of China (Taiwan):


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Photo © Sneeze Lam


China Airlines (CI) - Based: TPE


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Photo © Ralph Duenas - Jetwash Images


EVA (BR) - Based: TPE


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Photo © K.H.Yim


TransAsia (GE) - Based: TSA


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Photo © M Radzi Desa


Far Eastern Air Transport (EF) - Based: TPE/TSA


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Photo © Alex Pan


Mandarin Airlines (AE) - Based: TPE/TSA


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Photo © Je89 W.


Uni Air (B7) - Based: KHH


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Photo © Dennis Chang


Daily Air (DA) - Based: KHH


Major Airlines in Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of Peoples Republic of China (HKSAR)


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Photo © Mark Tang - HKAEC


Air Hong Kong (LD) - Based: HKG *Cargo Only


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Photo © Chaity


Cathay Pacific (CX) - Based: HKG


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Photo © K.L.Yim


Dragonair (KA) - Based: HKG


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Photo © Je89 W.


Hong Kong Airlines (N8) - Based: HKG


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Photo © Sneeze Lam


Hong Kong Express (UO) - Based: HKG


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Photo © Sneeze Lam


Oasis Hong Kong Airlines (O8) - Based: HKG


Major Airlines in Macau Special Administrative Region of Peoples Republic of China (Macau SAR)


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Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages


Air Macau (NX) - Based: MFM


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Photo © Sam Chui


VIva Macau (ZG) - Based: MFM

[Edited 2007-04-12 21:54:08]

[Edited 2007-04-12 21:58:19]
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting AirCop:
Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any. In the patrol we had DWO (driving while Oriental) wonder if FWO is the same?

Believe it or not they do; FWO is a term I've used a lot. However EV will never make a westener a Captain. Really they only hire expatriates to baby sit the left seaters; or so I've heard.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
mustang304
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 5):

I know the difference. Please don't assume I don't. I was referring to CHINA AIRLINES(CI), based out of Taipei. I worked with both airlines aircraft programs (Air China 777-200 and 747-400, China Airlines 747-400) when I was at Boeing. (As an aside, I also worked on most others 777/747, as I was in certification engineering in payloads). I know the different Chinese (PRC and ROC) airlines.

Currently Air China does not offer service to SEA. China Airlines (CI), does, from Taipei. The tower was referring to the fact that the China Airlines pilots from Taipei have issues with language. They did not mention EVA.

Mustang304

edit: grammer

[Edited 2007-04-12 22:59:07]
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 9):
I think is time to give you guys a clear list of Chinese Carriers,

There was no reason for that post. Several of those carriers don't even fly to the United States.

(Im sure you will argue there is no reason for this post) haha
Slower traffic, keep right
 
Evan767
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 12):
There was no reason for that post. Several of those carriers don't even fly to the United States.

Woah, this man put together all these pictures and information just for us, and all you can do is say, "You wasted your time, we really don't care."

I for one am very impressed at his research and thank him for his hard work. It was very informative and something that I would like to know. There are a lot of those kind of airlines and it get's confusing to know where every one of them is based. Thanks YLWbased.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
PanAm747
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:02 am

It isn't just Chinese carriers.

In one instance, an Aerolineas Argentinas 707 was actually on a collision course with the World Trade Center in 1981. The pilot, not understanding his instructions, and in dense clouds, had descended down to a level below minimums for New York City, and was heading directly towards the north tower.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900125-0&lang=en

In the case of the Avianca 707 crash in Cove Neck, NY, due to fuel starvation, the pilots knew that they were low on fuel, but were unable to phrase it correctly to JFK control. As a result, instead of prioritizing them, ATC sent them into a go-around loop for which the plane had insufficient fuel, resulting in a crash.

I also remember a news program playing a tape of Seattle ATC where an Aeroflot IL-96 could not make himself understood at all. The plane landed safely, but there was no understanding between the tower and the plane.
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Kevin777
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:06 am

Another funny/worrying one about Air China, heard it from a Sterling pilot a few years ago.

He was on approach to 22L at CPH, just lining up like everyone else waiting to get down at the airport. 22L was used for landings, 22 R for take-offs. 22L intersects with the cross rwy, 12-30.

Suddenly, ATC at CPH told him to abort his landing immediately, and climb. Why? An Air China 747 was trying to land on rwy 12! The plane did not respond to any ATC directions for several minutes, and landed nicely on rwy 12. Don't know the aftermath, but quite a story, still.. Maybe the aftermath was that Air China stopped flying on CPH shortly after..???  Wink

Kevin777  Smile
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magyar
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:20 am

This is not funny at all! People can die because of such misunderstandings.
 
folov
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:35 am

Even though i am half asian, I always get pissed off while driving in my neighborhood (asian mostly) We call it ADD (Asian Driving Disorder

[Edited 2007-04-12 23:36:47]
 
Kevin777
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting Magyar (Reply 16):
This is not funny at all! People can die because of such misunderstandings.

Don't get me wrong, I meant funny/worrying in the sense weird/worrying, not funny as in "what a laugh"..
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
YLWbased
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 13):

thanks for you compliment  Smile
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
cgagn
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:19 am

Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.

C-GAGN
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LTU932
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:38 am

This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk. Granted, if you're flying a GA aircraft, that may not be such a concern, but when we're talking about commercial aircraft like a 747 or an A320 for example, and major airports like CDG, ORD and PEK, it is important that they all speak sufficient English and practice it regularly. It's sad that only few countries where English is not the official language, like Switzerland or Germany for example, enforce this rule that ATC communications may only be in English. Just remember the runway incursion incident between this Shorts cargo aircraft and an Air Liberté MD-80 in CDG a few years ago. Had the Shorts pilot understood what ATC was saying to the MD-80 (and communications with the MD-80 was in French), they could have held short and avoid the inevitable disaster, yet France still insists on having ATC communication in both French and English, despite the security problem of ATC being bilingual and the language issues.

Pilots should have a very high proficiency in the English language, same for air traffic controllers (and I'm talking about conversational English, not just an English ATC vocabulary to be used in a country where they don't speak their language). Those who can't speak English or are not willing to properly learn it, should not fly an aircraft or control air traffic. It's that simple. I believe in the same documentary where the CDG runway incursion was shown, it was said that AF made English the only ATC language in which pilots may speak to French ATC controllers, but people protested against this and the plan was dropped.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:58 am

I fly United to, from and in Asia a lot and in the USA. As much as I love Channel 9, it is a real rude awakening to the language problems of pilots around the world, but especially in Asia. In Asia, not only are the pilots difficult to understand, but the ATC employees are just as bad. I cringe when I hear the misunderstandings and many repeats of instructions from ATC to the pilots. Help us all!
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georgebush
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
This is why I think that allowing pilots to speak in their native languages in places, where their native language is spoken, is a security risk.

Not only a security risk, but a flying hazard! I could easily see the headlines already "Plane crash due to language barriers between pilot and ATC" At least have the pilots coming to the United States English certified. Or any country who is concernd about the safety of their passengers.
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
flyinghippo
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20):
Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.

OH definitely.... Avoid SQ, NH, Thai, CI, BR, JL... Just wondering, how many of them have you flown with?
 
trex8
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20):
Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown?

actually CI never crashed a 727, A320, 734, 738, 741, 747SP. and the caravelle got blown up by a bomb. and their 742F crash was the first of several 747Fs with the engine pylon problem so thats hardly their fault either. all other jet types they have operated they have indeed crashed, except also for the A330, 340
 
phxplanes
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:36 am

I train in the PHX area and there are tons of asian pilots. You cant understand a word they say. I feel bad for the instructors.
 
highflyer9790
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:42 am

landing at a US airport = speak ENGLISH PROPERLY! thats dangerous! he had to take his time to guide the aircraft to the gate.
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LTU932
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 27):
landing at a US airport = speak ENGLISH PROPERLY!

Not just at US airports, but also at UK airports, German Airports, Swiss airports, etc.
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:57 am

Just to be fair to what was said on the radio by Kennedy ground.

I did not hear one radio call from ground that was standard ICAO apart form hold position. Despite what people think ATC in the USA is some of the worst, that rubbish about getting out of the aircraft and doing the taxiway work is a fairly typical sort of banter.

The controller should have said when clarifying the directions, "Negative, taxi Juliet, Alfa hold sort Mike Alfa" and "confirm receipt of ramp clearance" not "have they cleared you into the ramp".

The response to a "confirm" is either "afrim", "negative", or "standby".

At the same time he is yelling at them, they would be trying to contact the ramp controller on the another radio, the pilots are listening and transmitting on 2 frequencies, the controller should be aware of that, every airline does that.

Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.

A sensible controller would have picked up on this years ago when first handling Air China aircraft and would deliberately slow down the delivery of clearances and to use standard phraseology only.

It is always easy to blame Air China, you should hear American pilots stumble their way through ATC in Asia and Russia, the joe cool ATC banter is not appreciated. Standard phraseology should be used for all clearances, readbacks, and position reports, anything else confuses people.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
ual777
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):

It is always easy to blame Air China, you should hear American pilots stumble their way through ATC in Asia and Russia, the joe cool ATC banter is not appreciated. Standard phraseology should be used for all clearances, readbacks, and position reports, anything else confuses people.

Ha! We train Chinese here in San Antonio, and some of them need other students to translate! Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.

Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?
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trex8
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:35 am

to be fair, if the native Taiwanese CI pilots can't "speak" English, its because a fair bunch of them probably graduated from UND! Almost 20% of CIs pilots are non Taiwanese with the largest contingent from Canada (or used to be anyway a few years ago). If there are CI pilots who can't speak good ATC English, and I'm sure there are some, the vast majority must be speaking non standard SEA ATC American English.
 
kiramakora
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20):
Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers.

That is just too bad for you then. The consistently best service are all provided mostly by Asian carriers.
 
YLWbased
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:52 am

just to be fair to all Asian on this forum. Lots of Asian airlines hv a better safety record compare to north american/european airlines. (e.g. CX, KA, SQ, JL, NH, TG, just to name a few) and they DO SPEAK ENGLISH!

second, most of the major airport in Asia do have ATCs that speak proper english. (e.g. HKG, SIN, NRT, BKK to name a few).

and i do agree with Zeke, major airport like JFK should use proper ICAO ATC instructions to avoid miscommunications. i personally have a very difficult time talking to lots of tower across the boarder from Canada, coz they dun use standard ICAO instructions.

But as for this Air China pilot, i do agree that he should be suspended until he could pass an English Test, and i do agree no pilot should be allow to fly if they can't communicate with ATC in english fluently.

Quoting Cgagn (Reply 20):
Just another reason to avoid most of those asian carriers. Isn't it China Airlines (and yes, I know that's a different carrier than Air China!) that have crashed every type they've ever flown? I'll stick with Cathay Pacific if I have to fly an Asian carrier.

Well, wt about SQ, JL, NH, TG, KA? they are all excellent airlines interms of safety. they have a better safety record then Air Canada, First Air, Canadian North.

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 27):
landing at a US airport = speak ENGLISH PROPERLY! thats dangerous! he had to take his time to guide the aircraft to the gate.

not only in US, but ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. amen.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28):
Not just at US airports, but also at UK airports, German Airports, Swiss airports, etc.

as i said, anywhere in the world, including all 6 Continent.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30):
Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?

depends on which airport are you talking about. as i said, HKG, SIN, NRT, BKK, MFM all speaks very good English and they are up with International Standard if not over.
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
Lemurs
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30):
Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.

The problem with that is it proves nothing about how they can fly an airplane in and out of an airport, and worse, it can introduce points of confusion because non-standard language can mean ambiguous instructions. It would be like a hotshot programmer coming into a project that's been written entirely in C++, and deciding that since he's so damned good, he can get back with some assembly here and there. Fine, he can do that just fine, and maybe the guy in the office next to him can read it and understand what he's doing, but the rest of the team is left screwed. If something happens to him, everyone loses because they're not on the same page.

It's one thing to have banter between the correct and effective communications, but it's another to abandon protocol for the banter entirely. It's a protocol for a reason.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
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zeke
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30):
Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.

For your information, in the USA people do not speak English, it is American English, which is different. What seems like a normal sentence to you, may be incomprehensible to an english speaker in South Africa. That is why we have standard ICAO phraseology.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30):
Further, I wonder if the American pilots "stumbling" through ATC calls in Asia/Russia is not due to poor controller comprehension?

Well I heard CO aircraft the other day giving a position report with his fuel on board..... and had to go back and forth 4 times to get the clearance correct.

The world is larger than the USA, people in the USA teach students for the US market, most instructors at the ab-inito stage have any exposure to ATC outside the US, and would not know what ICAO standard phraseology is. Same with US controllers, many have little experience overseas, the American controllers we have at HKG only use standard phraseology, and have a go at the likes of UA, CO etc for not using it, and not reading back clearances correctly.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
cgagn
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting FlyingHippo (Reply 24):
Just wondering, how many of them have you flown with?

I've never flown any asian carrier. I've never even been to asia, but I would very much like to. I don't think a person has to physically fly an airline before they can comment on the safety record....

Perhaps I was a little hasty. I think a good arguement can be made that many asian carriers have had a spotty safety record in the past, however, in recent years many carriers have focused alot of energy on their safety programs and such. Airliner World magazine, in past issues, has specifically mentions Thai and Korean Air as two airlines who have launched new safety programs in recent years. Hearing ATC conversations like the one the original poster mentions certainly would make some people feel a little uneasy. To me, that recording seems like more than just some slight misunderstanding between pilot and ATC.

C-GAGN
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smashme33
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
security risk

why a security risk?

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 23):
Not only a security risk, but a flying hazard! I could easily see the headlines already "Plane crash due to language barriers between pilot and ATC" At least have the pilots coming to the United States English certified. Or any country who is concernd about the safety of their passengers.

It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37):
why a security risk?

OK, maybe not security, but definitely a safety risk. I apologise for the bad choice of words.
 
highflyer9790
Posts: 1189
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:21 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37):
why a security risk?

OK, maybe not security, but definitely a safety risk. I apologise for the bad choice of words.

at least you can speak english properly! no worries...it could be a security risk though...
121
 
smashme33
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:34 pm

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 39):
it could be a security risk though

Once again, why?
 
PlanenutzTB
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:29 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 8):
Haha, this one is just as bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUnVlyyar4M&mode=related&search=
Very entertaining.

I laugh through this entire sound clip, but I also wonder, should I be very scared about flying into and out of JFK. This ATC seemed very stressed out and very out of control of the traffic on the ground at JFK.
I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end.
 
Lexy
Posts: 1265
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:05 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 6):
Just to be fair both China Air and Eva have a number of western pilots in the cockpits whereas Air China doesn't have any.

Agreed. I know for a fact a number of CI pilots are Canadian and US born. I have met them before. Although, there is a "Chinese" component to the flightdeck on some flights, not all are Chinese. Heck, I have even encountered an Australian FO on one of their freighters!
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
apollo13
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:10 pm

I can relate. We were into JFK one time from Beijing and we had the same problem with Air China. We stopped onto the taxiway for what seemed to be like 15 minutes then proceded into the tarmac area for our gate then we slowly moved, then stopped, moved then stopped. It kept going for about 10 minutes. Finally some cars came near us and then we were escorted to the gate. i was one of the last people off the plane and i saw a bunch of people in suits having a chat with the Air China pilots in the jetway. They were not very happy.
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:10 pm

That Air China pilot reminds me of one of my flight instructor based in Virginia. He was full blooded korean and had a very strong korean accent. I had a hard time understanding and learning at the same time, so I switched for a CFI who spoke better english. Unofortunately, according to the chief pilot, he didn't get a lot of students and ended up quitting.

I flew form ORD-NRT last month, and on approach to NRT, mainly heard british, canadian, and australian pilots on the radio, even flying for Cathay, JAL, Korean, etc. I had a hard time understanding the controllers, tho.

I hear a lot of U.S. regional pilots with piss poor english. Gotta love channel 9.

[Edited 2007-04-13 05:12:54]
 
CaptainJon
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:21 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 8):
Haha, this one is just as bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUnVlyyar4M&mode=related&search=
Very entertaining.

i was about to paste that link! that is very scary. i have listened to KJFK and have had heard some interesting stuff. usually people cutting in line and hte controller wasnt amused. but this is a mess! i wonder how bad EWR is!
 
tsaord
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:46 pm

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:23 pm

Gosh....I can't be an ATC person those audio clips just drove me crazy. Too many voices and repeats lol.

I would like to fly without a concern in the world, but, languages barriers can cause a problem I see. I wonder how many mishaps have happened over language at ORD. Things SEEM to run smoothly lol.

[Edited 2007-04-13 05:40:18]
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
SkyGazer
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:51 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some Englis

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 30):
Personally, I think that the 'joe cool' ATC you speak of is a good thing because it truly shows whether or not a pilot truly understands the English language.

Understand English to what extent? While most of us will agree that having a higher level of comprehension of the English language will generally make things safer, and prevent hazardous misunderstandings like this one, surely having all pilots from non-English speaking backgrounds fluent in conversational English like most of us here is not always practical?

Instead, like Zeke says, all ATCs and pilots around the world should be properly trained in and adhering to standard ICAO terminology, which is obviously designed for clear and effective communication. Welcome to my RU list Zeke.

In the case of the the piece in the OP, when the CA pilot asks for confirmation to hold short of Hotel, he gets a mouthful of a response from the controller, "Yes you do unless you come out of the plane and open up all those closed taxiways and finish the construction over there.", which is totally unnecessary. All the extra crap would have done is add confusion, as the CA pilot probably didn't take in a word of it. How hard it is it to respond with a clear "affirmative"?

Anyone even with the smallest bit of experience in with dealing with people with limited English abilities would know that getting your point across by saying only as much as needed (and as little as possible sometimes without cutting vital bits out) is the way to go if you want them to understand properly.
Types flown: B738, B772ER, B773, B77W, B744, A310, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A388
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting YLWbased (Thread starter):
i hv heard



Quoting AirCop (Reply 3):
Sounds like nothing has change with Air China.



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 7):
They caused so much havoc on the radios I am glad to be rid of them.



Quoting YLWbased (Reply 9):
think is time to give you



Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 10):
EV will never make a westener a Captain. Really they only hire expatriates to baby sit the left seaters; or so I've heard.



Quoting Mustang304 (Reply 11):
edit: grammer

Of course, what's irony is seeing the lapse in grammar and spelling here.  Wink

Quoting Zeke (Reply 29):
Instead of speaking clearly and slowly he gets angry and raises his voice and speaks faster "this is a question blah blah", raising his voice does not add in the clarity of the content of the message.

Well, try not to blame ATC too quicky. I've seen and heard at least 2 Air China goes through language issues at JFK. In all fairness, it might have been the same pilot on different occassions. At one point, it was so obvious that the Air China 747 wasn't going anywhere, so ATC actually made the UA 757 behind the 744 taxi in front of the Air China and make him follow the UA off the runway and back into the queue.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
georgebush
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English.

Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 37):
It can work both ways. US carriers could learn the languages of the places that they go, too. There would definitely be less of a language barrier if the pilots would learn French, Chinese, etc.

No it cant. English, as far as I am concerned, is the official language of aviation. It shouldn't matter what part of the world you are in, for safety, security, whatever! It is a lot less confusing if everyone speak the same language. It wouldn't matter to me if that language were French, German, Spanish, but its not. It is English and its the language spoken by most every (should be every) pilot worldwide.

If pilots have to switch languages when switching air spaces, should the Captain jump over to the right seat when they hit British airspace too??

Quoting Smashme33 (Reply 40):
Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 39):
it could be a security risk though

Once again, why?

If you have people on the radio speaking all different languages how will they be able to communicate with certain law enforcement officials should a problem arise on board??
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