LHStarAlliance
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Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:49 am

Lufthansa will make an announcement this spring regarding the long-awaited renewal of its regional fleet, CEO Wolfgang Mayrhuber told ATWOnline last week.

"We are currently in talks with the manufacturers. After that, we will provide details," he said. He did not indicate the size of the order or if it would include aircraft for its Swiss International Air Lines subsidiary.

Currently, LH's regional carriers CityLine, Eurowings, Air Dolomiti and Augsburg Airways operate 145 aircraft comprising 18 RJ85s, 19 BAe 146s, 12 CRJ900s, 20 CRJ700s, 40 CRJ200s, 26 ATR 42s/72s and 10 Dash 8-300s/Q400s.

from : http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8581
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stylo777
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:03 am

I don't think that this will happen but it would be great to see some E170's in LH colours.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 1):
I don't think that this will happen but it would be great to see some E170's in LH colours.

I agree

http://cardatabase.net/modifiedairli...earch/photo_search.php?id=00007767
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stylo777
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 2):
http://cardatabase.net/modifiedairli...earch/photo_search.php?id=00007767

lovely! this is all I could say...  cloudnine 
 
Lite
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:08 am

I think that the Embraer could be a good replacement for a number of the smaller types in the Lufthansa Group fleet, despite the fact that they have a large amount of Bombardier aircraft. The E-Jets have already been ordered by Swiss though have been deferred for some time, and bmi (Lufthansa owns 30% and has the option to buy outright next year) has been shown the E-Jet family as a possible augmentation aircraft for bmi regional or replacement aircraft for bmibaby.
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Aleksandar
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:26 am

Well, somehow I believe LH will continue ordering Bombardier planes.
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eraugrad02
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 5):
Well, somehow I believe LH will continue ordering Bombardier planes.

CRJ-1000's i suppose?
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SailorOrion
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:05 pm

Is there any indication how the CRJ700/900 and the ERJs compare in fuel efficiency these days?

SailorOrion
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:18 pm

as to a decision whether the order will be placed with Embraer or Bombardier, perhaps it will order from both? LH officials have repeatedly stated that they want to source aircraft from two manufactures, so as not to be too dependent from just one supplier. although that was always claimed in combination with orders for the mainline fleet and having Airbus and Boeing in mind, perhaps this is a policy that applies to the regional fleet as well?

rgds
daniel
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saab2000
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:21 pm

This is going to be interesting. The AVRO aircraft are comfortable and appropriate for a half-dozen specialized airports in Europe, but otherwise the EMB-170/175 - 190/195 would be an ideal replacement. They bridge the gap between traditional larger airplanes and so-called 'regional' aircraft very nicely.

I have flown in the EMB-170 and EMB-190 and can guarantee anyone who cares that from a passenger perspective there is simply no comparison with the CRJ products.

I believe that the EMB-170 can do LCY. I am not sure about the larger EMB-190 series, but if so it seems as if there would be no contest.

I guess we have all been over the CRJ vs EMB before. Not quite as bad as A vs B, but still debated.

I would like to see SWISS replace their Avros with EMB products when the time comes.

[Edited 2007-04-14 12:22:51]
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:36 pm

Well I just hope they get rid of that awful "Jumbolinos" .

Konstantin
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saab2000
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 10):
Well I just hope they get rid of that awful "Jumbolinos" .

The "Jumbolino" name came in the 90s and is left over from the Crossair times. The planes themselves are nice though. Comfortable ride. The passengers like them AFAIK, though I think they would like the EMB-190 as a replacement aircraft too. And I am sure the EMB-190 is more efficient than the Avro/Jumbolino.
smrtrthnu
 
sandrozrh
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:27 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 10):
Well I just hope they get rid of that awful "Jumbolinos" .

They are NOT awful at all, actually they are a very comfortable ride. What makes LH's Avros awful is the 3-3 seating. Have you ever flown on a 3-2 layout Avro? I'm sure you'd change your opinion.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:47 pm

I think it is pretty difficult to build a plane that is less efficient than the Avros/Jumbolinos/Quadrapuffs. From what we can see in LHs data, there's no airplane that consumes more fuel per 100pkm in the fleet.

SailorOrion
 
jwenting
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:04 pm

the ARJ is comfortable and quiet, the former important to passengers, the latter to airports (noise abatement) and therefore the landing fees...

4 engines are going to cost a bit in fuel, but if that's offset with lower cost elsewhere it's a tradeoff that's not costing money.

The ARJ is also capable of operating out of far shorter strips than say a CRJ (which is severely underpowered), making it ideal for flights into small airports like London City.
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A342
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:09 pm

Bombardier needs to launch the Q400X / Q500, then IMO LH (through Augsburg Airways) would immediately order at least 15.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
DALCE
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:14 pm

Might the long-awaited and still uncertain F70/F100NG be an option for LH?
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A342
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order

Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 16):
Might the long-awaited and still uncertain F70/F100NG be an option for LH?

LH wants aircraft to be delivered, not hot air. Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but LH won't order aircraft that haven't been launched.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Rainmaker
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:30 pm

Somehow I think this regional jet order could be related to the retirement of the B735. Does anyone know how many are in use at LH's fleet?

Embraer has been targeting an LH's order for many years now. Now that Lufthansa is showing good profitability it's about to happen. I would expect something around 50 190/195.
 
v1valarob
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:37 am

This is a little off-topic, but before I was a member of a.net I asked on the AOPA forums and I didnt get a good response but, how do they get aircraft like Q400's across the pond? Do they package them up and boat them, or do they stop in iceland? Are CRJ's able to get across when not weighed down?

-Rob
 
A342
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting V1valarob (Reply 19):
This is a little off-topic, but before I was a member of a.net I asked on the AOPA forums and I didnt get a good response but, how do they get aircraft like Q400's across the pond? Do they package them up and boat them, or do they stop in iceland? Are CRJ's able to get across when not weighed down?

Without passengers, the range increases significantly. You fly a route like north-eastern Canada - Greenland - Iceland - Scotland or something like this. And if the range is still insufficient, you can add auxiliary fuel tanks. These are removed after delivery.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 12):
They are NOT awful at all, actually they are a very comfortable ride. What makes LH's Avros awful is the 3-3 seating. Have you ever flown on a 3-2 layout Avro? I'm sure you'd change your opinion.

Well to tell the truth not ... but my brother and in his opinion this A/Cs are very uncomfortable .

And the A/Cs look really bad ...

Konstantin
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CRJ900
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 18):
Somehow I think this regional jet order could be related to the retirement of the B735.

Are there any pilot scope clauses that regulate the number of aircraft that LH and LH CityLine can operate respectively, and which may hamper a combined B735/regional aircraft order?

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 9):
I have flown in the EMB-170 and EMB-190 and can guarantee anyone who cares that from a passenger perspective there is simply no comparison with the CRJ products.

I assume that LH earns most of its revenue from business class-pax. On the CRJ the C class-pax has two seats to himself already, so LH may not find it worth the money to pay extra for slightly wider aircraft where seats are only 1 inch wider, plus the airport fees will be higher for the E190/E195 than for the CRJ900/1000 because the aircraft are physically bigger and thus heavier. Most European butts will fit comfortably in a 17" wide Y seat too, as I have read several favourable comments on the web about the CRJ900s "new cabin" with LH.

I do like the E-jets too, but the "wider seats" may not be a big selling point for LH, if the C class-concept continues to involve leaving 50% of all seats free, as there are limitations to what business people are willing to pay for a little extra space on a 90-minute flight. If LH decides to sell one seat per business class pax, then the extra seat width will appear more attractive, but that will then differ from the A32X and B737 cabins where two C pax share a row of three seats.

Bombardier are probably in serious talks with LH, both have benefitted from each other since 1992 when the CRJ100 was launched, and LH continues to show that the airline can still make loads of money despite having no PTVs in Y, flying the "gas-guzzling A346" and flying "those dreaded CRJs"...  Wink

Either way, LH will get the aircraft that suits their needs best.
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sandrozrh
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21):

Well to tell the truth not ... but my brother and in his opinion this A/Cs are very uncomfortable .

Then i really wonder what he'd expect, I've flown on LX's Avros a countless times and still think that they are comfortable planes to fly on.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 21):
And the A/Cs look really bad ...

Airlines dont care about looks when they order planes, just because you think the Avro looks pants doesnt make it an awful aircraft at all.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 23):
Airlines dont care about looks when they order planes, just because you think the Avro looks pants doesnt make it an awful aircraft at all.

That´s right , it was more a personal opinion ...

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 23):
Been on a.net for over three years, but re-registered.

Was your Username ZRHnerd or something similar ??

Konstantin
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EI321
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:04 am

Just a question - do the LH 146s have poor cabin air quality (even smell of fumes) sometimes?
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 6):
CRJ-1000's i suppose

Can these horrible long and narrow planes do LCY? This THE most important argument for LX.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 10):
Well I just hope they get rid of that awful "Jumbolinos"

As already said, with the 2-3 seating of LX, these aircrafts are even more comfortable than the A 320. They are really great to fly and I love them very much as a passenger. In the 3-3 LH configuration they are most cramped and absolutely horrible.
 
DALCE
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:44 pm

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 18):
Somehow I think this regional jet order could be related to the retirement of the B735.

They are not yet to replace, delivery started in the '90s and they have still some years to go.
The 733's will be replaced first as they are older. ( del since 1986 )
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LTU932
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
LH won't order aircraft that haven't been launched.

Then why did LH order the 747-8I and actually become the launch customer of the type? Sorry for the OT, but my point is that LH did order an aircraft model that was technically not launched, and their order launched the 747-8I (I know the 747-8 was already launched at the time, but only as freighter, not as PAX aircraft, so LH did order the -8I when it wasn't launched). So, if the aircraft fits their requirements and the terms of purchase are right, I'm sure LH would be willing to take the risk in becoming a launch customer for a new aircraft.

And one question: why would LH not buy from Embraer and instead just go with anything from Bombardier no matter what when it comes to RJs?
 
legacy135
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 9):
This is going to be interesting. The AVRO aircraft are comfortable and appropriate for a half-dozen specialized airports in Europe, but otherwise the EMB-170/175 - 190/195 would be an ideal replacement. They bridge the gap between traditional larger airplanes and so-called 'regional' aircraft very nicely.

I have flown in the EMB-170 and EMB-190 and can guarantee anyone who cares that from a passenger perspective there is simply no comparison with the CRJ products.

I believe that the EMB-170 can do LCY. I am not sure about the larger EMB-190 series, but if so it seems as if there would be no contest.

I guess we have all been over the CRJ vs EMB before. Not quite as bad as A vs B, but still debated.

I would like to see SWISS replace their Avros with EMB products when the time comes.

 checkmark 
I absolutely agree.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 12):
They are NOT awful at all, actually they are a very comfortable ride. What makes LH's Avros awful is the 3-3 seating. Have you ever flown on a 3-2 layout Avro? I'm sure you'd change your opinion.

 checkmark 
This is true as well. The Jumbolino in the 3-2 layout is pretty nice. Talking about the 3-3 version, I recently used it on LH from FRA to BSL (operated by Eurowings). I had business class, and what they do, is not selling the middle seat in business. This way it was "so - so", but taking a third passenger in the middle seat in consideration makes it in my opinion worse than a fully loaded CRJ. What we have to keep in mind as well, is that the "Jumbolino" is not really a fuel efficient aircraft. I recently read an interview about LX, which said that an RJ100 from ZRH to WAW will burn as much fuel as an A320 (might have been an A319, don't remember).

I think the key point in the LH/LX regional order will be the LCY capability. None of the CRJ's can go LCY. The E170 can. Sure, the Q300's can do it as well, but nobody wants to fly from Southern Germany or Switzerland on a Q300 as far as LCY. Those are high yield routes and I am sure, they will play an important role in the final decision.

Cheers
Legacy135  Wink
 
A342
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28):
Then why did LH order the 747-8I and actually become the launch customer of the type?

I should have expressed myself differently. I meant to say: LH won't order an aircraft from a company that has a rather obscure future, with the status of the project being very uncertain. This is the case with the Rekkof product. With the 748i, it was rather a question of "when", not "if".

Quoting ZRH (Reply 26):
Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 6):
CRJ-1000's i suppose

Can these horrible long and narrow planes do LCY?

No chance.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
CXfirst
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:55 pm

Which of the regional planes that LH has, need replacements the most?

Hope embraer gets a large order Big grin

-CXfirst
 
A342
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 31):
Which of the regional planes that LH has, need replacements the most?

Well, it's not their aircraft, but those of their partners.

I'd say the BAe-146, it is getting old and it's fuel burn is less than satisfactory, to say the least.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 16):
Might the long-awaited and still uncertain F70/F100NG be an option for LH?

i highly doubt that that is a solution. even the Sukhoi jets is far from being order by LH, i assume.

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 18):
Somehow I think this regional jet order could be related to the retirement of the B735. Does anyone know how many are in use at LH's fleet?

i would have thought so, too. but LH would run into trouble if they were to replace mainline aircraft with regional aircraft (even if they had the same size), in the sense of shifting parts of its fleet to its subsidiaries. and the title of the press article suggests it is really about regional aircraft, so it probably is an order for aircraft only to be employed by its regional affiliates.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 22):
Are there any pilot scope clauses that regulate the number of aircraft that LH and LH CityLine can operate respectively, and which may hamper a combined B735/regional aircraft order?

yes, there is a scope clause. it basically says that aircraft with more than 70 seats must be operated by LH mainline. however, CL, EW and EN all operate many aircraft seating more than that limit. there are special rules in place which allow a limited number of larger regional jets to be operated despite the scope clause.

Quoting DALCE (Reply 27):
They are not yet to replace, delivery started in the '90s and they have still some years to go.
The 733's will be replaced first as they are older. ( del since 1986 )

i agree.

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 31):
Which of the regional planes that LH has, need replacements the most?

all the four-holers in Lufthansa's regional fleets are up for replacement. they burn lots of fuel and the leases are expiring in the foreseeable future. also, i think the recent phase out of some CRJ 200s is likely to continue if new aircraft arrive.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:58 pm

It was rumored over the last few weeks that LH converted the Swiss order for E170 into ones for the E195 which will replace the Avros and Bae 146 with Eurowings and Air Dolimiti.
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columba
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order

Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 18):
Somehow I think this regional jet order could be related to the retirement of the B735.

I was wondering about that as well.
I think the Embraer is the most possible solution. The design of the CSeries is not done and there is a big question mark on that project. LH said that they won't order another stretch of the CRJ but still that does not has to mean a thing.
The Sukhoi Superjet is also very unlikely. LH is a conservative airline and would hate tabloids as "LH buys unsafe Russian aircraft" Although we know that this is not true but many people don't especially in the media.

On Wednesday there is a shareholder meeting maybe we know more then !!!

[Edited 2007-04-16 21:38:27]
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 35):
The Sukhoi Superjet is also very unlikely. LH is a conservative airline and would hate tabloids as "LH buys unsafe Russian aircraft" Although we know that this is not true but many people don't especially in the media.

Yea forget the Super Jet , it´s to risky , LH has a name as one of the safest airlines in the World ordering a Russian Airplane could be fatal ...
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LipeGIG
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:08 am

Announced by Embraer !

LH goes Embraer (and Bombardier also as per press info). Embraer in fact will change their 15 E170 and 15 E195 sold to LX and will sell now 30 Embraer 190 to LH

As per Embraer press release "it will not change their back log and the final agreement will be made during the next weeks.

Felipe
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YULspotter
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RE: Lufthansa Nears Major Regional Aircraft Order ATW

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:42 am

According to this article, it's 15 more CRJ-900s & 30 E-190s for LH.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070417/lufthansa_new_jets.html

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