a380us
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Questions About T4 At JFK

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:45 am

so terminal 4 at JFK is a very intresting one in many asspects
but my question is with all the Israeli security for LY and 6H how are there so many airlnes that are not necessarily pro israel located near if not right next to these airlines.
i dont want this to be too political but the airlines that im talking about are
Saudi Arabian Airlines with 2X weekly
Kuwait Airlines with Daily service
Etihad Airways with Daily service
Emirates with 3X daily
Pakistan International Airlines with Daily service
im not sure about those figures but thats about
5 a day and another 5 a week
and LY with 3 to 6 a day and Israir with 3 to 4 a week how does security handle it
and often i see these planes parked next to an LY or 6H plane
are there conflicts between the airlines?

and please dont bash me or any of the countries or airlines
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star_world
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Questions About T4 At JFK

Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:55 am

This is no different to many other European airports where many of these airlines would also co-exist.

But the answer is, of course there isn't. What sort of trouble would you expect??
 
CXA330300
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:22 am

Generally nothing happens. But El Al, Israir, and Egyptair flights are generally parked in a different area than KU or SV. Not the case with the other three.
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting A380US (Thread starter):
please dont bash me or any of the countries or airlines

Does this count?  Wink

PIA and Kuwait don't have daily flights into JFK.

Quoting A380US (Thread starter):
LY with 3 to 6 a day

El Al currently has 8xweekly flights:

Thursday, Monday, Wednesday (LY7)
Sunday, Tuesday (LY7)
Thursday (LY11)
Wednesday (LY11)
Sunday (LY1)

Quoting A380US (Thread starter):
but my question is with all the Israeli security for LY and 6H how are there so many airlnes that are not necessarily pro israel located near if not right next to these airlines.

I have flown in and out of Terminal 4 six times however only twice have I flown in and out of Concourse B which is where El Al and Israir usually park.

You will notice that both Israir and El Al aircraft spend a considerable amount of time on remote stands during their duration at JFK. My flight from Concourse B left around noon so there were no El Al flights departing. I believe that the aircraft are probably guarded when they are on remote stands.

I'm not sure how security is handled inside the terminal during the flights though, sorry.
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rjpieces
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:09 am

I'm sure it's no biggie...EgyptAir even uses El Al check-in counter space on some days.
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ContinentalEWR
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:54 am

El Al aircraft are parked on the apron because some flights arrive in the early AM and depart in the late PM.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 5):
El Al aircraft are parked on the apron because some flights arrive in the early AM and depart in the late PM.

As is normal with other JFK regulars like the Singapore 747-400 and Emirates A340-500 which spend time on the apron.

The EL AL flight to EWR also spends time on the apron because of its early arrival.
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planenutz
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:46 am

I had heard that one of the reasons EL AL is located at T1 at LHR was so that it wouldn't be co-located with certain other carriers at T2 and T3. Same went for South African Airways, who during aparthied years were relegated to T1 so as not to co-locate with other African carriers.
I also understand that at MUC EL AL, Arkia, and Israir use a segregated terminal only reachable by bus. I beleive this is more for security reasons than for issues of co-locating with other carriers.
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a380us
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 3):
El Al currently has 8xweekly flights:


11:50 pm Depart New York (JFK)
Arrive Tel Aviv (TLV) 5:10 pm tip+1 day Sun 22-Apr
Duration: 10hr 20mn
El Al El Al 8

7:55 pm Depart New York (JFK)
Arrive Tel Aviv (TLV) 1:35 pm tip+1 day Sun 22-Apr
Duration: 10hr 40mn
El Al El Al 2


2:30 pm Depart New York (JFK)
Arrive Tel Aviv (TLV) 7:50 am tip+1 day Sun 22-Apr
Duration: 10hr 20mn
El Al El Al 32

well thats already 3 in one day
and you forgot fligth # 32 and 8
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 8):
well thats already 3 in one day
and you forgot fligth # 32 and 8

LY7 is the flight number arriving JFK and LY8 is the flight number departing JFK.  Yeah sure

Looks like I made a bit of a mistake, EL AL has 12xweekly flights.

Sunday and Thursday have 3 flights a day while Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday have 2 flights.

EL AL does not fly into JFK on Friday and Saturday.
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a380us
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 9):
EL AL does not fly into JFK on Friday and Saturday.

well they leave TLV on saturday night and they also have flights (i think 2) that leave JFK saturday night so thats another 2
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 10):

well they leave TLV on saturday night and they also have flights (i think 2) that leave JFK saturday night so thats another 2

There is an LY8 that departs on Saturdays at 23:50, no flights arrive on Saturday though.

I could very well be wrong but I believe the reason for limited or no flights on Friday and Saturday is due to the Sabbath?
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helvknight
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 11):
I could very well be wrong but I believe the reason for limited or no flights on Friday and Saturday is due to the Sabbath?

Almost certainly. In Israel itself all public transport shuts down Friday afternoon and doesn't start up till Saturday night.

Theoretically it shouldn't be a problem as travelling over water on the Sabbath isn't proscribed in Judaism but of course the pax and crew still have to get to the airport.
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a380us
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 12):
Almost certainly. In Israel itself all public transport shuts down Friday afternoon and doesn't start up till Saturday night.

thats not true
taxis still operate although they may be limited in places like Jerusalem
also buses do close in Jerusalem and Modi'in and i think Tibirus but their still open Eilat and i thin Tel Aviv and Haifa

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 12):

Theoretically it shouldn't be a problem as traveling over water on the Sabbath isn't proscribed in Judaism but of course the pax and crew still have to get to the airport.

its nothing with traveling over the water its more about ... well everything involved such as flying or using a phone.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 11):

I could very well be wrong but I believe the reason for limited or no flights on Friday and Saturday is due to the Sabbath?

that is correct
if im not mistaken i think Continental also doesn't operate on Friday afternoons
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 13):
if im not mistaken i think Continental also doesn't operate on Friday afternoons

According to the schedules Continental still goes 2xdaily on Fridays.
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Indio66
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:49 am

Back in the day, TWA's JFK flight to TLV was nearly always gated next to their flight to CAI (continuing to Saudi Arabia), both leaving at around 10PM.
 
a380us
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 15):
Back in the day, TWA's JFK flight to TLV was nearly always gated next to their flight to CAI (continuing to Saudi Arabia), both leaving at around 10PM.

but israeli airlines must have even more security
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 16):
but israeli airlines must have even more security

As we all know EL AL is known for their top notch security on board their aircraft but I don't think the top notch security is everywhere that the airline flies besides TLV and on board the aircraft. As mentioned I'm sure there is not much of a difference in terms of security at Terminal 4 with EL AL and Israir as there is with Virgin Atlantic or TAM.

Before entering either the B concourse or the A concourse in Terminal 4 there is a security check point and I imagine that is the only security the passengers go through before boarding the flights although there may be second screening at the gate.

[Edited 2007-04-15 22:48:09]
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a380us
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 17):

As we all know EL AL is known for their top notch security on board their aircraft but I don't think the top notch security is everywhere that the airline flies besides TLV and on board the aircraft. As mentioned I'm sure there is not much of a difference in terms of security at Terminal 4 with EL AL and Israir as there is with Virgin Atlantic or TAM.

Before entering either the B concourse or the A concourse in Terminal 4 there is a security check point and I imagine that is the only security the passengers go through before boarding the flights although there may be second screening at the gate.

so to begin i magine youv never gone to israel or not on LY 6H or IZ for that matter
but there is much more security than you think
to start when you arrive your already put into to 3 diffrent "groups" which is technically discrmination but their allowed to do this
then they begin with you
as your waiting in line for check in your "interigated"
they baiscally ask you a few simple qustiones (but they can change by group)
the qustiones are like is it your first time going
why are you going
and so on

then on almost all if not all there is/are air marshal/s

and then their planes are escorted and specially treated such as when the plane on a stand there are officers on board (i think)

so thats that
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 18):
so to begin i magine youv never gone to israel or not on LY 6H or IZ for that matter

That is true, I have never been to Israel. The closest to the Middle East that I have gotten to was Morocco.

Quoting A380US (Reply 18):
to start when you arrive your already put into to 3 diffrent "groups" which is technically discrmination but their allowed to do this
then they begin with you
as your waiting in line for check in your "interigated"
they baiscally ask you a few simple qustiones (but they can change by group)
the qustiones are like is it your first time going
why are you going
and so on

I have heard about this.

Quoting A380US (Reply 18):
then on almost all if not all there is/are air marshal/s

As I previously mentioned.

Quoting A380US (Reply 18):
and then their planes are escorted and specially treated such as when the plane on a stand there are officers on board (i think)

I believe that is true as well.

However I believe there is no difference in security once you pass the security check point for Concourse B until you enter the aircraft.
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a380us
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 19):
However I believe there is no difference in security once you pass the security check point for Concourse B until you enter the aircraft.

for the actual person you may be right unless they need to "talk" to you
but it doesnt mean that the security officers stop working cause you walked through a metal detector and got past it.
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting A380US (Reply 20):
but it doesnt mean that the security officers stop working cause you walked through a metal detector and got past it.

That is absolutely correct however I don't think TSA guards single out passengers flying on LY as they are walking around Concourse B.
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rjpieces
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 15):
Back in the day, TWA's JFK flight to TLV was nearly always gated next to their flight to CAI (continuing to Saudi Arabia), both leaving at around 10PM.

Do you happen to have TWA's TLV schedule handy? I'd be curious what time their flights were compared to CO today...

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 17):
As mentioned I'm sure there is not much of a difference in terms of security at Terminal 4 with EL AL and Israir as there is with Virgin Atlantic or TAM.

Not at the TSA checkpoint, but El Al has heavy security around their check-in area.

Don't forget that many terrorist attacks have been carried out against El Al check-in counters during the years...Most recently in the summer of 2002 at LAX.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/07/04/la.airport.shooting/
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PA101
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:20 am

In regards to the topic - I've flown from T4 on EK to HAM on Saturday, April 14th myself and was wondering about that too - not because of the airlines or the crews. I'm sure they are professional enough not to bother about another airline/crew. But looking around in the terminal area, I saw quite a lot of orthodox Jews and obviously Muslim people sitting in the restaurant area. Thus, I've been wondering if they ever had clashes between passengers awaiting their flights and giving comments to each other...
 
a380us
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting PA101 (Reply 23):
In regards to the topic - I've flown from T4 on EK to HAM on Saturday, April 14th myself and was wondering about that too - not because of the airlines or the crews. I'm sure they are professional enough not to bother about another airline/crew. But looking around in the terminal area, I saw quite a lot of orthodox Jews and obviously Muslim people sitting in the restaurant area. Thus, I've been wondering if they ever had clashes between passengers awaiting their flights and giving comments to each other...



also the mosque shul and two chapels are located right next to one another
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jfk777
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:41 am

Terminal 4 and before it the IAB have housed the world's who's who of airlines. They have all peacefully coexisted for almost 60 years, as Idlewild and then JFK. A similar situation exists between China Air, from Taiwan, and Air China from China; airlines have to operate to certain airports and be good neighbors regardless their politics. Airlines are a business or strategic links for countries and dealing with apartteid, Israel or renegade provinences should not get in the way of an important flight.

Could you imagine if the mainland Chinnesse government told the USA if you let China Air or Eva fly to the USA, Air China won't, a very empty threat which would only hurt Air China's interest.
 
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mats
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:47 am

El Al serves many destinations worldwide, and it often shares terminal space with airlines from nations that are not on good terms with Israel.

I have flown on El Al out of Terminal 4. It's true, El Al does have a security interview for its passengers. But the TSA checkpoint did not change, and there was no additional inspection prior to boarding the 747-400.

I did pass by an Egyptair flight to Cairo en route to my El Al gate.

El Al guards its gate areas (especially after the LAX tragedy) and closely guards it aircraft. Other than that, El Al uses the airport just like anyone else.

The security is actually more obvious (and intrusive) for Tel Aviv-bound passengers on US carriers. Delta and Continental have a frisking and hand baggage inspection at the gates for TLV flights.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting Mats (Reply 26):
Delta and Continental have a frisking and hand baggage inspection at the gates for TLV flights.

Is this true? I didn't know it...Who does it, airline security? Do they do this for any other flights?
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apodino
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Mats (Reply 26):
Delta and Continental have a frisking and hand baggage inspection at the gates for TLV flights.

And the other day, the Israeli air force nearly shot down a Continental 777 just because of lost communications. They don't mess around in Israel, which is one reason I would never want to go there.
 
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mats
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:07 pm

RJPieces,
I believe it's a private security firm in Newark and Atlanta. I don't know if this is done for other flights.

Continental and Delta flights from Tel Aviv to the USA do not have any obvious additional screening procedures. All flights from Ben Gurion Airport have the same passenger screening interviews, baggage inspections, etc.
 
Indio66
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 22):
Do you happen to have TWA's TLV schedule handy? I'd be curious what time their flights were compared to CO today...

Sorry, I do not have a schedule. They both left JFK around 10PM. The Cairo flight departed Cairo at around 1AM and arrived at JFK at 6:00. I remember having to wait on the plane at JFK until they opened customs at 6:00AM one time.
 
B767300ER
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RE: Questions About T4 At JFK

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:57 am

The CAI flight left at 10:00 PM while the TLV flight left at 10:30 PM. Normally both used Flight Wing 1 at the TWA JFK Terminal 5. Except when there was a DOT alert the TLV flight would depart from Flight Wing 2 to avoid any difficulties.
I can recall two such incidents. Anyone who remebers Flight Wing 2 was much smaller and on one of the ocasions that I worked the flight it was still a 747-200 so the area was quite jammed. Normally the lst departure from Flight Wing 2 was around 7:00 PM and after that only late arrivals would be scheduled there, usually MD-80's. The only passenger conflict I witnessed was between a delayed Royal Jordanian flight out of Flight Wing 1 and passengers on flight 888 to CAI. P.A.
Police had to be called. Hope this answeres your question.