DL777LAX
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Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:11 am

I checked an older thread, but it left me with some questions about the commuter division of Aer Lingus.

What was it like? What routes did it operate? What aircraft did it use? Why was it dropped?
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OA260
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Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:14 am

It used to do all domestic flights with F50's and BAE146's and some regional UK flights. It was quite a good service but was dropped as it wasnt making money. It was one of the first things to go when the cut backs came in.
 
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shamrock350
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Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:22 am

Yes it's a shame commuter had to go. I always had great flights on them, you were always treated like a biz passenger even when you were in economy. Now EI don't operate anything smaller than a 174 seat A230.

The aircraft had "commuter" titles on them.


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BrianDromey
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Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting DL777LAX (Thread starter):
What was it like? What routes did it operate? What aircraft did it use? Why was it dropped?

It was pretty much identical to mainline, AFIK. They flew fokker50s and BAe 146's.

(BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA, SOU, LCY, LGW, STN etc) would have been the mainstay, although there are pictures in the databaase of the 146s and Fokker50 in AMS, ZRH, CDG, BRU, FAO and LIN, so they were also used on european routes. At that time EI would not have flow to more than 15 destinations in Europe and the UK, so they appear to have used the commuter division relatively widely throguhout the network.

I suppose it was dropped because there was no real need for it. Although initially commuter flew mainy to the UK by the end it seem to have flow pretty much everywhere mainline might fly.

One of the Irish members Bx737 flew with EI commuter for a good few years, so he might be able to tell us a bit more about its demise.

Brian.
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diesel1
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Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:57 am

Looking a bit further back, Aer Lingus Commuter also operated other prop types as well as the F50

These included the SF340 and Shorts 360
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IIRC the SF340s were the replacement type for the Shorts
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OA260
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 4):
These included the SF340 and Shorts 360

God forgot about the 360!! It used to fly from Dublin to Sligo amongst others. It was like a box, OA used to use them also round the Greek Islands. That was my first and only time on one.
 
diesel1
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 5):

In fact it was the SH330 that Olympic used - I remember seeing them at JTR when holidaying there.
Totally agree about them looking like a box... we nicknamed them 'sheds'
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philb
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:24 am

Aer Lingus Commuter started with a leased Short 330 whilst waiting for the 360s. This was often referred to as the Vomit Comet, a name transferred to the 360s.
 
EI321
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:28 am

Aer Arann basically fed off the demise of Aer Lingus commuter. Ive never thought much of Arann to be honest, they are very average. It would have been nice if EI had been able to sort out the commuter end of things as they already held the PSO contracts but now its too late. They still seem to struggle to fill the A320s on some of the UK routes, with the likes of Jersey being only seasonal (just ask poor old Kaitak). I cant see Mannion going back to smaller aircraft than an A319.
Aer Lingus were seriously considering launching 'Aer Lingus Express' at one stage in the 1990's, basically a LCC offshoot (similar to BAs 'go') in response to Ryanair, but management dropped the plan at the time as apparently they wanted Aer Lingus to remain known as a quality brand. Obviously, eventually the situation got very bad, with the govt having to pump in direct cash (IR£175m IIRC), and the Cahill plan was put into force which sold off most of the airlines non-core business. Then Willie Wonka came in and blitzed the airlines whole cost base. Dont get me wrong, what Walsh did was absolutly nessessary, but sometimes I wonder did he go too far.

[Edited 2007-04-15 01:45:25]
 
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:42 am

With the growth of Aer Arann at the of the nineties, and EI looking to focus in one direction without any extra weight attached, EI dropped Commuter, but in a sense only dropped the F50s, and then brought the 146s into the mainline fleet. So the remaining 8 aircraft were merged back into the main fleet. However this was done in February 2001, so it came before the big cut backs, yet a few aircraft flew around for some time after wearing Commuter titles.
At the time EI arranged a code sharing agreement with Aer Arann on the domestic routes, but has sinced dropped that.
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pelican22
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:50 pm

Commuter,came about after the demise of Avair a small Irish independent,I think Arthur Wignall was a major shareholder or owner,they flew S-330s and B-200s and a B-99 ,it was the first attempt to establish a Domestic and regional network from Dublin,they flew to Derry,Sligo,Belfast and seasonal to IOM and Blackpool,EI had a codeshare on their flights to Belfast, Aer lingus then set up Commuter ,flying a S-330 to compete with Avair.
 
voodoo
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:25 pm

Didn't they crash a shed (330/360) near Manchester, or Leeds, or somewhere at some time? '80s? But everyone walked away, 'box' intact!
Some wiki details: >in 1986, when a Shorts 360 hit high-tension power lines after rolling.<[sic]

[Edited 2007-04-17 13:33:45]
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EI321
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:36 pm

Thats right, the most recent EI crash was a Shorts 340 which hit powerlines at east midlands in 1986.
 
diesel1
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 11):

Indeed they did.. @ EMA though. The link has more detail.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19860131-1&lang=en
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OA260
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:52 pm

God didnt know that !!! They were lucky.
 
EI321
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:56 pm

Good riddence to those Shorts. The SAAB's were nicer.
 
Toulouse
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 3):
although there are pictures in the databaase of the 146s and Fokker50 in AMS, ZRH, CDG, BRU, FAO and LIN, so they were also used on european route

Very true, I remember flying an Aer Lingus Commuter BAE 146 from Madrid to Dublin.

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 4):
These included the SF340 and Shorts 360

I really hated those Shorts 330's and 360's.
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:27 pm

The 146s apeared at various airports from time to time. If a flight was half empty it would be better to send a 146 than a 737.
 
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OA260
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:48 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 17):
The 146s apeared at various airports from time to time

I liked the EI 146's. I flew to Cork on one.


 
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 17):
The 146s apeared at various airports from time to time. If a flight was half empty it would be better to send a 146 than a 737.

Would fuel burn have been less with a 146 than a 737?
 
aviopic
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Diesel1 (Reply 4):
Looking a bit further back, Aer Lingus Commuter also operated other prop types as well as the F50
These included the SF340 and Shorts 360

Even further further back they were the very first F27 operator with the first production airframe(cn.10105) delivered on Nov.19-1955. Although not named commuter at the time.

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philb
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
Even further further back they were the very first F27 operator with the first production airframe(cn.10105) delivered on Nov.19-1955. Although not named commuter at the time.

Not only had Aer Lingus Commuter not been thought of when the last F-27 left EI service in 1966 - it was almost 18 years in the future - but the delivery of the first F-27 was November 19 1958
 
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 21):
Not only had Aer Lingus Commuter not been thought of when the last F-27 left EI service in 1966

True, at the time no one ever thought about commuters or even RJ's still they serve the same function back then as the F50 later on.

Quoting Philb (Reply 21):
but the delivery of the first F-27 was November 19 1958

A terrible mistake from me.
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting EINA330 (Reply 19):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 17):
The 146s apeared at various airports from time to time. If a flight was half empty it would be better to send a 146 than a 737.

Would fuel burn have been less with a 146 than a 737?

Actually my assumption is incorrect as the 146 burns more fuel.

Fuel Burn per hour in a 3 hour flight (kg)


Aircraft Type Total Fuel Burn (kg)
737-400 6465
BAE146-200 6669

Aircraft Type Fuel Burn per passenger (gallons)
737-400 44.4
BAE146-200 108.2
 
kaitak
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 12):
Thats right, the most recent EI crash was a Shorts 340 which hit powerlines at east midlands in 1986.

It was a Shorts 360, EI-BEM. That aircraft came down on approach to 09, the opposite end of the runway to where the BMI 737 came down three years later (to the month). The most serious injury in the EI accident was actually to the fire crews, when one of the fire tenders overturned. It's quite an achievement that this is EI's last hull loss and in (now) 46 years of jet operations, it has never had a jet hull loss. Only AY and QF have similar records.

I never got to fly on an EI 360, although I've flown the type with Jersey European (as it was then) and Aurigny, our local airline down here in Jersey. I always like ALC; I flew quite a few times on the Fokker 50s; they were nice - and on the 146s, which were less nice, but I always liked the fact that I usually managed to get the jump seat. Oh, those good old days!
 
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
Even further further back they were the very first F27 operator with the first production airframe(cn.10105) delivered on Nov.19-1955. Although not named commuter at the time.

That was only the prototype. The first production model Fokker F-27 wasn't delivered until 1958.

Quoting Philb (Reply 21):
Not only had Aer Lingus Commuter not been thought of when the last F-27 left EI service in 1966 - it was almost 18 years in the future - but the delivery of the first F-27 was November 19 1958

The first F-27 delivered and in service, with Seattle-based US local service carrier West Coast Airlines, was not a Fokker F-27 but an F-27A license-built by Fairchild in the US. The first Fairchild F-27 was delivered July 1958 and went into service in September 1958, two months before EI put the first Fokker-built F-27 into service.

I believe this was the very first F-27 in service:


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West Coast Airlines later merged with two other local-service carriers (the name then used for US regional carriers) to form Air West, which later became Hughes Airwest which then merged with Republic Airlines which then merged with Northwest.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 24):
It was a Shorts 360, EI-BEM. That aircraft came down on approach to 09, the opposite end of the runway to where the BMI 737 came down three years later (to the month).

That was a very unfortunate incident. IIRC the 737-300(or was it -400?) had not been in service long (the frame had leaa than 1000 hrs, IIRC). The new "glass cockpit" technonlgy had not been in service long, and both pilots had relatively few hours on type, resulting (along with some unclear systems) in teh shutting down of teh fully functioning engine.

As stated above EI does have a great record. This can only be down to one thing. Very good maintanence and good pilot training. Incidents such as the A330 near miss at BOS show the talent and skill of the EI crews. You dont have 46 years without a hul loss by pure luck, thats for sure.

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philb
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
The first F-27 delivered and in service, with Seattle-based US local service carrier West Coast Airlines, was not a Fokker F-27 but an F-27A license-built by Fairchild in the US. The first Fairchild F-27 was delivered July 1958 and went into service in September 1958, two months before EI put the first Fokker-built F-27 into service.

...and your point is?

Before "correcting" me, please try and understand the context of what I have written. This thread is about Aer Lingus Commuter. Aviopic was talking about the first Aer Lingus F-27, made an error with the date, which I put right:
 
aviopic
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
That was only the prototype.

We are going of topic but anyway this is not correct.
There were 4 proto's, 2 flying and 2 static(cn's 10101 to 10104)
Remains of proto 1(10101).

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Second flying prototype 10102 which actualy was the third proto  

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As said before 10105 was the first production frame.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
The first production model Fokker F-27 wasn't delivered until 1958.

Yes I know.

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Corrected my typo in reply 22.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
The first F-27 delivered and in service, with Seattle-based US local service carrier West Coast Airlines, was not a Fokker F-27 but an F-27A license-built by Fairchild in the US. The first Fairchild F-27 was delivered July 1958 and went into service in September 1958, two months before EI put the first Fokker-built F-27 into service.

I am sorry but this is also incorrect.
Fairchild started building in 1956 and the first proto made it's first flight on April 12-1958.
On May 9 the first proto was written off due to a gear failure, second proto flew on May 23 with reg. N2027
Sunday June 22 1958 the first Fairchild was delivered to WCA.
In other words a little over a month after the first F27 delivery to Lingus.

Edit: an extra sidenote the airworthiness certificate was obtained at July 30  Wink

[Edited 2007-04-17 22:19:15]
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Viscount724
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 28):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 25):
The first F-27 delivered and in service, with Seattle-based US local service carrier West Coast Airlines, was not a Fokker F-27 but an F-27A license-built by Fairchild in the US. The first Fairchild F-27 was delivered July 1958 and went into service in September 1958, two months before EI put the first Fokker-built F-27 into service.

I am sorry but this is also incorrect.
Fairchild started building in 1956 and the first proto made it's first flight on April 12-1958.
On May 9 the first proto was written off due to a gear failure, second proto flew on May 23 with reg. N2027
Sunday June 22 1958 the first Fairchild was delivered to WCA.
In other words a little over a month after the first F27 delivery to Lingus.

Thanks for the further info. West Coast was the first to put the F-27 in service, correct?
 
aviopic
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RE: Questions About Aer Lingus Commuter

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
Thanks for the further info. West Coast was the first to put the F-27 in service, correct?

You're welcome. West Coast is correct.

Although I got all the dates correct I did mess up my conclusions Viscount724.
It was the FH27 delivered before the F27, I am sorry for the confusion.
Guess I need some sleep  tired 
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