Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
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Israir Considers A340 Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:40 pm

Quote:
Israir is in an advanced stage of negotiations with Airbus over the purchase of long-range planes, in addition to the two medium/short-range A-320 jets it has already bought. Israir is interested in the A-340, which could be used on its Israel-U.S. routes.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848308.html

Wording of the article indicates that they are talking about at least two A340s (I would assume -300s). Earlier information talked about A330s, but I could imagine that A340s are cheaper to have at the moment. If coming true I would expect a similar deal to Finnair´s: now A340s (or 330s), later to be replaced with A350s.

In addition the article indicates that Israir has firmed its order for 2+1 A320s.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
manni
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:53 pm

Interesting, would be nice if this happens but perhaps the author of the article messed up the information he got and Israir might still be looking for the A330. Afterall, he's writing that the price for 2 A320s and 1 options is US$280 million. That can't be correct either.
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aminobwana
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
2001, 3924 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted Sun Apr 15 2007 02:53:46 your local time (2 hours 54 minutes 3 secs ago) and read 234 times:


Interesting, would be nice if this happens but perhaps the author of the article messed up the information he got and Israir might still be looking for the A330. Afterall, he's writing that the price for 2 A320s and 1 options is US$280 million. That can't be correct either

This makes no sense. Unless somebody is trying to get rid of the problematic and fuel guzzling A340, it is much
more expensive as the E330 and its long range capabilities are not necessary to fly to the US!
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
Unless somebody is trying to get rid of the problematic and fuel guzzling A340, it is much
more expensive as the E330 and its long range capabilities are not necessary to fly to the US!

Well, try to fly an A330 Tel Aviv - Los Angeles or San Fransico. That´s going to be tight. Anyway, calling the A340 fuel-guzzling is a bit too far away from the truth, it pretty much depends if you as an airline are willing to have higher fuel costs calculated into your biz-plan or not. It is an a.net myth that you can´t earn money with the A340 regardless of the version. If this would be that case a) every operator would by now have switched to a more efficient model and b) nobody would have ordered any new A340 in recent months (there were several business jet orders and the Finnair order plus Air Mauritius last year as well as a Lufthansa repeat order). At least in the case of Finnair it clearly indicates that the airline thinks that overall they will be able to make more money with the A343 than with their current MD-11 fleet.

Plus availability: no B777s are available on short-notice and if they would be damn expensive. Besides, please describe to me why the A340 is supposed to be "problematic"?
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
Basefly
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:39 pm

That would be so cool if The 340Could get a few orders this month....  cheerful 

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):

I wouldn't call the A340-300 or the A340-500 Problematic, alot of airlines still seem to be able to make good money using them.
757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
 
EI321
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
Afterall, he's writing that the price for 2 A320s and 1 options is US$280 million. That can't be correct either.

Perhaps its confusing A320s with A340s

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
This makes no sense. Unless somebody is trying to get rid of the problematic and fuel guzzling A340, it is much
more expensive as the E330 and its long range capabilities are not necessary to fly to the US!

The A343 Problematic? Fuel guzzling? Can you back this up?
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 3):
Well, try to fly an A330 Tel Aviv - Los Angeles or San Fransico. That´s going to be tight. Anyway, calling the A340 fuel-guzzling is a bit too far away from the truth, it pretty much depends if you as an airline are willing to have higher fuel costs calculated into your biz-plan or not. It is an a.net myth that you can´t earn money with the A340 regardless of the version. If this would be that case a) every operator would by now have switched to a more efficient model and b) nobody would have ordered any new A340 in recent months (there were several business jet orders and the Finnair order plus Air Mauritius last year as well as a Lufthansa repeat order). At least in the case of Finnair it clearly indicates that the airline thinks that overall they will be able to make more money with the A343 than with their current MD-11 fleet.

That´s it the A340 is a good A/C and if you´ve fleet commonality it´s far better than order some 777...
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Sukhoi
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:24 am

I know in summer time SK have to think about weight when the plane is 100% full on the A330 ARN-ORD not really a problem but TLV to the US are further away. So an order of A343 makes sense to me.


ARN (59°39'07"N 17°55'07"E) ORD (41°58'43"N 87°54'17"W) 305° (NW) 4272 mi
TLV (32°00'41"N 34°53'12"E) JFK (40°38'23"N 73°46'44"W) 313° (NW) 5677 mi
TLV (32°00'41"N 34°53'12"E) SFO (37°37'08"N 122°22'30"W) 341° (N) 7422 mi
TLV (32°00'41"N 34°53'12"E) LAX (33°56'33"N 118°24'29"W) 336° (NW) 7574 mi
TLV (32°00'41"N 34°53'12"E) MIA (25°47'36"N 80°17'26"W) 305° (NW) 6603 mi
 
Poitin
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
This makes no sense. Unless somebody is trying to get rid of the problematic and fuel guzzling A340, it is much
more expensive as the E330 and its long range capabilities are not necessary to fly to the US!

The A343 Problematic? Fuel guzzling? Can you back this up?

How about John Leahy, himself:
FI: Airbus To Offer Customers Cash Back On A340s (by Leelaw Jan 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
EI321
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 8):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 5):
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
This makes no sense. Unless somebody is trying to get rid of the problematic and fuel guzzling A340, it is much
more expensive as the E330 and its long range capabilities are not necessary to fly to the US!

The A343 Problematic? Fuel guzzling? Can you back this up?


How about John Leahy, himself:

Yes the A340-500 & -600 have higher fuel burn than the 772LR & 773ER. None of which are related to my question, or are being considered by Arkia by the looks of things.

Im asked Aminobwana to back up this claim of the A340-300 being:

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
problematic and fuel guzzling
 
a380us
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:14 am

i think what israir has beeen doing for the past few months is very intresting
im not how sure how well their doing but their not that big of an airline but have done special things in the aviation industrie in the past few months such as:
Sky Torah- a torah skroll in the Sky RE: Flying Torah (by B707Stu Jan 4 2007 in Civil Aviation)
Airbus for Israel- Israir is the first Israeli airline to sign with Airbus Israir Buys A320 (by Flying-Tiger Dec 20 2006 in Civil Aviation) The First Israeli Airbus (by EL-AL Feb 16 2007 in Civil Aviation)
and now this
so for a small airline they seem to be making news and lots of publicity
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dank
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 9):
Yes the A340-500 & -600 have higher fuel burn than the 772LR & 773ER. None of which are related to my question, or are being considered by Arkia by the looks of things.

Not to mention that while they aren't as fuel efficient as the 772LR and 773ER, respectively, they aren't completely awful in the fuel economy department.

cheers.
 
slz396
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:15 am

Isn't it so that in particular the A340-300 can very well stand the test to its most direct competitor the 772, because it is much lighter, especially on stretches where the bigger capacity of the 772 isn't really needed?
 
EI321
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 12):
Isn't it so that in particular the A340-300 can very well stand the test to its most direct competitor the 772, because it is much lighter, especially on stretches where the bigger capacity of the 772 isn't really needed?

All aircraft will inevitably have unique characteristics that make them better on one mission than another. The A340-300 does not have the same weight disadvantage that the A340-500 does, as its basically an A330-300 with four engines and more fuel tank-age. So for example, on a short flight of around 3000 miles, I presume that the difference in fuel burn between an A340-300 and an A330-300 is very small. The larger wings and other structural reinforcement on the -500 means that it has an OEW some 40 tonnes greater than the -300, despite being only 4.3m longer.

In Israirs, case it would be interesting to work out what the difference in CASM would be between the A340-300E and 777-200ER. I dont have the relevant data at hand to do this though.

[Edited 2007-04-15 20:48:59]
 
Rj111
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 13):
So for example, on a short flight of around 3000 miles, I presume that the difference in fuel burn between an A340-300 and an A330-300 is very small

Not really. SAS used to have an online emissions calculator available to Joe Public which suggest the A333 burned about 10% less than the A343. However, it probably wasn't the most accurate tool.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 13):
So for example, on a short flight of around 3000 miles, I presume that the difference in fuel burn between an A340-300 and an A330-300 is very small.

I'm more thinking of a longer flight where the medium-to-long-ranged A330-300 is reaching its limits (FULL load of fuel, MAX t/o weight...). Then, such a flight is still completely within the A340-300 mission, and where its mission is actually optimized. At least, this is how they have been developed, and the more recent development of the 330-300X did not match the 340-300's range.

Who operates both? AC. 333X is more focused on Europe while 343 more on Asia. CX. 333 is regional, 333X is flying to Australia, and 343 mostly to Europe. SK. the 343 flies where the 333X can't. The 333X would not be more efficient, they would not have bothered getting both types and would only fly the 343. LH. They got a few 333X recently and fly short Transatlantic flights with them. Again, because as this is well within the 333X range, it probably makes more sense here than the longer-hauler 343.

Besides the engines, what is actually the main difference between a 333X and a 343? How come the 343 can carry more fuel within the same volume? Loss of freight? Re-inforced structures leading to additional weight and making the 333X lighter and more efficient?
When I doubt... go running!
 
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autothrust
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 2):
Unless somebody is trying to get rid of the problematic and fuel guzzling A340,

Funny how myths never end at A.net.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 13):
case it would be interesting to work out what the difference in CASM would be between the A340-300E and 777-200ER.

It has been discussed already and the A343 is more fuel efficient then the 772ER, though it offer less payload and range efficiency.

There are some links Keesje, Zeke posted where accurate CASM Numbers for comparison can be found.


RE: Why So Few 340's Across The Pacific? (by AutoThrust Jan 11 2007 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2007-04-15 22:53:52]
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LAXintl
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 14):
SAS used to have an online emissions calculator available

Still do
http://sasems.port.se/
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magyar
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 1):
Israir might still be looking for the A330. Afterall, he's writing that the price for 2 A320s and 1 options is US$280

So much for the "Airbus giving away..." mantra of Boeingland.  Smile  Smile
 
aminobwana
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:08 am

to Flying Tiger

1) You cannot resell a A340 without huge losses, therefore some airlines does it, other are restrained
2) The problems are, as you know very ell, overfuelconsumption, overmaintenance due to 4 engines,
nose overweight (by the way, i must check my correspondence, to see if Airlines are able to equip
cabin without consulting manufacturer, as many airlines have not the knowledge, and if such problems
do not require a re-certification)
3) The reason that AIRBUS sells the A340 cheap and with short delivery are precisely the stated above
4) If ISRAER cannot wait for a B777, they can lease one with purchase option. As I hear,they plan for
now only to fly to NYC, so they coud lease also a A330 or B767.
5) As you are in Germany, you must have heard that LH bought the the A340-600 (together with the
B747-8i), they had already decided for the B777, but as the purchase of the B747-8i was
ubcomfortable for the German government (due to the A380 problem) , the "suggested" LH to buy
the A340. This was not what LH wanted, but not too bad,as they had the advantage of same-type
with their existing aircrafts, so they accepted said "suggestion"

aminobwaba
 
trex8
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
5) As you are in Germany, you must have heard that LH bought the the A340-600 (together with the
B747-8i), they had already decided for the B777, but as the purchase of the B747-8i was
ubcomfortable for the German government (due to the A380 problem) , the "suggested" LH to buy
the A340. This was not what LH wanted, but not too bad,as they had the advantage of same-type
with their existing aircrafts, so they accepted said "suggestion"

and pray tell where did you get this gem from??
LH initially bought the A346 years before there was a 748 planned and they topped up their order recently because it probably just makes more sense than buying a whole new subtype, 77W, regardless of whether they were getting 748s or waiting for A380s.
 
dank
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
1) You cannot resell a A340 without huge losses, therefore some airlines does it, other are restrained
2) The problems are, as you know very ell, overfuelconsumption, overmaintenance due to 4 engines,
nose overweight (by the way, i must check my correspondence, to see if Airlines are able to equip
cabin without consulting manufacturer, as many airlines have not the knowledge, and if such problems
do not require a re-certification)
3) The reason that AIRBUS sells the A340 cheap and with short delivery are precisely the stated above
4) If ISRAER cannot wait for a B777, they can lease one with purchase option. As I hear,they plan for
now only to fly to NYC, so they coud lease also a A330 or B767.
5) As you are in Germany, you must have heard that LH bought the the A340-600 (together with the
B747-8i), they had already decided for the B777, but as the purchase of the B747-8i was
ubcomfortable for the German government (due to the A380 problem) , the "suggested" LH to buy
the A340. This was not what LH wanted, but not too bad,as they had the advantage of same-type
with their existing aircrafts, so they accepted said "suggestion"

aminobwaba

You seem to neglect that there are substantial differences between the second generation 340s (345/346) and the 343. The center of gravity issue is a new generation issue (and I'm not sure how much it is an issue with the airlines vs. the manufacturer). The 343 fares well against the 772ER for most applications. It isn't as fuel efficient as the 333 on shorter legs, but when you need more range... Even the 345/346 are not awful fuel consumers compared to other planes (e.g. the 346 is useful as a 747 classic replacement). They aren't as efficient as the current Boeing competition, but that doesn't make them complete dogs. I honestly don't know what the 343 resale values are like, but the 345 has a tough time on the market. Although, a contributing factor is the small number of them (what am i going to do with a couple of 345s?) and nobody sleecting new ones. There's also the fact that ultra long haul is not so profitable for the likes of SQ regardless of whether they switched to the 772LR (I mean, if the profits would be that spectacular with the 772LR vs. the 345, they would dump the 345s even at a bad price and buy 772LRs).

cheers.
 
EI321
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
1) You cannot resell a A340 without huge losses, therefore some airlines does it, other are restrained

This is grade A nonsense, unless perhaps you can provide a source? And yes Israirs case concerns A340-300.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
2) The problems are, as you know very ell, overfuelconsumption, overmaintenance due to 4 engines,
nose overweight (by the way, i must check my correspondence, to see if Airlines are able to equip
cabin without consulting manufacturer, as many airlines have not the knowledge, and if such problems
do not require a re-certification)

What exactly is over maintanance? Over fuelcomsumption (its stated above that the A340-300 actually consumes less than the 777)? and the nose issue you refer to is exclusive to the -600, so irrelelant in Israirs case.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
3) The reason that AIRBUS sells the A340 cheap and with short delivery are precisely the stated above

........ nothing to back up these?

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
4) If ISRAER cannot wait for a B777, they can lease one with purchase option. As I hear,they plan for
now only to fly to NYC, so they coud lease also a A330 or B767.

Current A330/A340 line backlog is 352 @ 8 per month (firm orders only)
Current 777 line backlog is 326 approx @ 7 per month (firm orders only)

So thats 44 months production in the A330/340 back log, and 46 months production in the 777 backlog.
 
manni
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
1) You cannot resell a A340 without huge losses, therefore some airlines does it, other are restrained

 liar  A340, 777, A330 and even 767 every secondhand aircraft on the market manages to find almost immidiately a new airline. The demand is greater then the offer. Remember the reports on the Austrian A330 sale? 35 interested parties! Guess what that does to prices...

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
2) The problems are, as you know very ell, overfuelconsumption, overmaintenance due to 4 engines,
nose overweight (by the way, i must check my correspondence, to see if Airlines are able to equip
cabin without consulting manufacturer, as many airlines have not the knowledge, and if such problems
do not require a re-certification)

 rotfl  Nose overweight! That's a new one. I suppose you are reffering to that article that appeared the other day. As for the other 'problems', if true, how could proffesionals such as AY overlook these and order a bunch of A340s in 2007?

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
3) The reason that AIRBUS sells the A340 cheap and with short delivery are precisely the stated above

That the A340 is cheaper to purchase then the 777 is probably true, but that does not mean the A340 is cheap. Airbus has nothing to win by building an A340 and losing money on it or building them for a margin significantly less then the margin they get on an A330 . Keep in mind that the much more wanted A330 can be build on the same line. About the delivery, Virgin Blue said availability of the aircraft (A346 or 773) would be very important in their decision. They chose the 777 and will start flying with them next year. Not bad. Air Asia somehow said the same thing (A333/2 or 772), it remains to be confirmed what they've ordered. How long do you think it would take to take delivery of an A340 if you ordered it today?

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
5) As you are in Germany, you must have heard that LH bought the the A340-600 (together with the
B747-8i), they had already decided for the B777, but as the purchase of the B747-8i was
ubcomfortable for the German government (due to the A380 problem) , the "suggested" LH to buy
the A340. This was not what LH wanted, but not too bad,as they had the advantage of same-type
with their existing aircrafts, so they accepted said "suggestion"

 liar 
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EI321
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
How long do you think it would take to take delivery of an A340 if you ordered it today?

As I pointed out:

Current A330/A340 line backlog is 352 @ 8 per month (firm orders only)
Current 777 line backlog is 326 approx @ 7 per month (firm orders only)

A330/340 backlog: 44 month approx
777 backlog: 46 months approx

........So theres roughly 2 months (14 aircraft) more in the 777 backlog at the moment.

[Edited 2007-04-16 13:54:14]
 
slz396
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RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 15):
I'm more thinking of a longer flight where the medium-to-long-ranged A330-300 is reaching its limits (FULL load of fuel, MAX t/o weight...). Then, such a flight is still completely within the A340-300 mission, and where its mission is actually optimized. At least, this is how they have been developed, and the more recent development of the 330-300X did not match the 340-300's range.

In fact that is fully correct in my view.

The A340(classic) must be seen as the A330ER, but rather than getting the needed increase in thrust from an engine thrust boost, Airbus preferred to get more thrust from installing 4 smaller engines instead, which at the time of conception also helped them overcome the problem of ETOPS restrictions which still heavily weighted on the transpacific long haul for which the standard A330 lacked range and some sort of A330ER was really needed...

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 15):
Besides the engines, what is actually the main difference between a 333X and a 343? How come the 343 can carry more fuel within the same volume? Loss of freight? Re-inforced structures leading to additional weight and making the 333X lighter and more efficient?

I've been explained once that the A340 can carry more fuel in its wingtanks, mainly because the 2 outboard engines actually reduce the bending moment of the wing when it is fully loaded with fuel, because they sort of counteract the bending moment of the weight of the fuel. Therefor the A340 has more fuel tanks installed than the A330 in the same wing volume. All that was needed to support the extra weight was a central main landing gear, but other than that, no real structural differences between an A340classic and an A330 exist.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
It has been discussed already and the A343 is more fuel efficient then the 772ER, though it offer less payload and range efficiency.

That's exactly what I thought too.

The idea the 777 is superior to the A340 is based solely on performance figures from the -LR and -300ER versions in relation to the A340-500 and A340-600/
However, the 777-200 (and if I am not mistaken also the 777-200ER) is outclassed by its direct competitor the A340-300E right up to the end of the latter's payload capacity and only brings benefits if one needs the extra payload.
It just so happens that the fleed needs of the airlines nowadays are more in the 777-300ER category than in the 777-200 category AND that fuel has risen to well over 60 dollars a barrel....

However, I do expect the A340-300 to attract new orders from time to time for many years to come and the interest of a small airline like Israir doesn't come as a surprise to me.

[Edited 2007-04-16 14:17:15]
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 25):
I do expect the A340-300 to attract new orders from time to time for many years to come and the interest of a small airline like Israir doesn't come as a surprise to me.

The difficulty in finding used A340-300s is perhaps also an issue for them.
 
Basefly
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:35 am

RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):

You are kidding right.......??  crazy 
757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
 
slz396
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 7:01 am

RE: Israir Considers A340 Order

Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 26):
The difficulty in finding used A340-300s is perhaps also an issue for them.

that's true...

As Manni has pointed out, the A340 is built on the SAME line as the A330, and Airbus currently can't keep pace with demand for this plane alone, so anybody getting his hands on a new-built A340 is likely paying big money (because they know the plane they are ordering is worth it, in view of its lower CASM against its competitor the 777-200ER) or has a broader deal which includes other airbus planes like the A330 and/or A350XWB (AY comes to mind).

For all the others (SAA is said to be desperately wanting to order some new A340 for delivery asap), well too bad, but don't blame Airbus for making to most efficient use of the limited number of slots on the A330/A340 line they have available and thus giving priority to high profit orders.

The increase of production on the A330/A340 line from 8 to 9 and even a rumoured 10 a month, combined with the expected slow down in interest in the A330 once the 787-8 has its EIS will likely have a modestly positive influence on the A340(-300) sales numbers. Finnair definitely won't have been the last one to order the A340.

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