AF Cabin Crew
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BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Sun Jul 30, 2000 8:45 pm

Joanna Walters, transport business editor
Sunday July 30, 2000

British Airways will boost Airbus Industrie's A3XX project by buying up to 10 of the 'superjumbos', a senior source at the manufacturer predicts.
The source at the European aircraft consortium told The Observer he believed BA would sign up this autumn.

A prototype of the giant airliner is expected to be flying by 2004 and to start commercial services a year later.

The source said Airbus was in 'serious, two-way' talks with BA about the A3XX, talks which had gone beyond unsolicited sales pitches.

Airbus already has orders from Air France, Middle East airline Emirates, and US leasing company ILFC. It hopes BA and Lufthansa will soon follow suit, but believes that signing up a major US airline will take longer.

Under previous chief executive Bob Ayling, BA appeared to be turning against the A3XX. He froze orders for the current largest aircraft, the Boeing 747, and instead bought more of the smaller, twin-engined 777s.

New boss Rod Eddington is sticking to smaller aircraft and shrinking capacity by 12 per cent over the next three years, to boost profits. But he has not ruled the superjumbo out, although it seems unlikely BA will sign up for A3XX as quickly as the hard-talking Airbus predicts.

A source close to BA said: 'There are routes we could imagine using the A3XX on, routes where you cannot offer high frequency because there is only a small time window in which you can take off and land at sensible times, such as Australia and Japan.'
Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
XXXX10
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Sun Jul 30, 2000 9:01 pm

I would not be suprised by the above
BA currently operates 5 flights a day LHR-JFK not including the two concorde flights, surely as slots at LHR/JFK are under more pressure and airspace in general gets more crowded many airlines will need a larger plane. BA may be talking to Airbus to spur Boeing on What do you think?

I do not believe the claims that the extra space on the A3XX will be used for gyms/restaraunts etc it will all be for seats- who has a lounge on the 747 now?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:43 pm

I think we will see some sort of "luxury touches" on the A3XX-100 anyway because of this simple fact: Airbus may not allow any airline to put in more than at most 575 seats on the A3XX-100 due to emergency evacuation requirements (i.e., everyone off the plane in 120 seconds using emergency slides) imposed by the Federal Aviation Administration in the USA and the Joint Airworthiness Authority in Europe. This is why Airbus hasn't marketed the idea of a high-density version of the A3XX for the Japanese market because of that concern.
 
Guest

RE: Mmmmm...

Mon Jul 31, 2000 12:03 am

I don't think I would bet on BA getting the A3XX (I didn't say I was sure!)

I think they might well opt for the stretched 747. Just my thought. As someone mentioned above, they may be trying to ruffle Boeing's feathers: but will they respond?

I think this, after having discussed it with someone from LHR ATC (retired). He made a point that BA have a long-standing relationship with Boeing, rather than Airbus. Boeing may give them a better deal.

This, I'm sure, will also have political implications. Whatever you may say about BA and liberal attitudes, the British and American governments have, and always have had, (since the WW) a very strong relationship.

Although BA are now privatised, the British Government, I'm sure, will be keeping a subtle eye on BA's bulk orders. In the interests of preserving their strong relationship with the Clinton Admin., they may lean on BA to "look carefully" at Boeing's offerings.

Perhaps I'm looking into this too much. Heck, they might buy the A3XX after all this!

ts
 
AF Cabin Crew
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 12:17 am

Few facts,

You have to evacuate an aircraft in less than 90 seconds with half of the exits unoperative. When Airbus say they can offer 575 seats in a 3 class config it means that it can offer much more than that.

Also, about BA being a good Boeing friend. Yes, they are, or was it were. Tailscraper, you are talking about the same government that let BA buy a lot of Airbus A32X's ?? Where was the british government when BA placed that bulk order for the european narrowbody ? Where was the government when BA's franchisee GB Airways decided to order the A320 also ?
I do appreciate the fact that BA is trying to ruffle Boeing's feather to see what will happen just like what people were saying when BA did the exact same thing a couple of years ago and finally ordered the Airbuses when everyone was expecting BA to order Boeing products.
Nothing is certain.
I love both Boeing for its incredible 777 and 747-400 and Airbus for its amazing A32X's.

AF Cabin Crew

Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
 
Guest

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 2:33 am

AF Cabin Crew: point taken. I agree with you on the small Airbus'. But it's the long-haulers which sell for more money.

Also, I honestly can't see why BA would need the A3XX. Plenty of 747's already. 777's where the 747's are too big.

For the most part, I expect the UK government have had no say in fleet choices, as BA are private. My perception might not exist at all. My perception, is that the UK gov't are careful, when dealing with foreign countries. They like to be diplomatic.

Perhaps they couldn't give two hoots about the Airline business. On the other hand, they may want to persuade BA to buy SOME Airbus' and SOME Boeings, for obvious reasons.

If BA do buy the A3XX, I bet you they will be a small batch. i.e. EK.
 
Guest

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 3:47 am

I dont think BA will do this. They have a very large 747-400 fleet, and buying the 747x would just make more sense, in both practical and economic terms. BA, if they buy a super jumbo at all, will opt for the 747x, I think.
 
747-600X
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 4:17 am

You people talk about BA opting for 'the 747X' - may I point out that THERE ISN'T A 747X? Boeing hasn't done much of anything with that for a while and what they have done is far from the officially launched status of the A3XX.
 
Peter
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 4:19 am

I think that BA would probably buy the 747X, because they already have the 747. Also, BA was buying smaller planes, instead of larger ones.
 
777X
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 4:19 am

747-600X,

Boeing is seriously persuing the 747x program, check their web site for details.

Regards
777x
 
Guest

RE: 747-600X

Mon Jul 31, 2000 5:20 am

Hi,

As the poster above mentioned, I do think they will have to do something, other than saying Airbus won't sell'em. As I said, my theory is that BA are trying to tempt Boeing into getting off their ar*es, and do something quick, or they won't have much choice when trying to exploit niche markets, which require special a/c.

BTW, I am neutral as regards Airbus/Boeing. May they both continue to produce great planes bla bla etc.

Rgds
ts
 
Hamlet69
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 5:21 am

I would like to join the group that believes BA may be using this to urge Boeing to go ahead with the 747X. I would also like to remind everyone that the idea that BA is 'serious' about the A3XX comes from a man at Airbus itself, not BA.

747-600X,

Yes, there is a 747X and 747X Stretch. What there isn't is a 747-500/-600. The purpose of the 'X' is to show the plane is there, but not yet being built. Also, Airbus has not 'officially launched' the A3XX. They've 'commercially launched' the aircraft, which means they can offer it to customers. Boeing rarely takes such a step publically. Usually, an order is placed before we even know it is being formally offered to airlines. The fact they pitched it to SQ probably means that it is 'commercially launched' and has been for the past couple of months.

Hope this helps.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
CX747
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 5:33 am

I agree that BA will most likely purchase the 747-400X, 747X and 747X Stretch. From an operations standpoint, it make no sense to order the A3XX. BA currenlty operates 57 747-400s along with an ever growing fleet of 777s. The new 747Xs will be a hybrid between the two. As for the recent A32X order by BA, there were many factors behind the order. First off it was a great deal because BA doesn't have to pay for a large part of the maintenance costs on the engines. Basically they just bring in the A320 and IAE picks up the tab. So, in other words Airbus and IAE gave away the A32Xs. A little politcal side effect could be the recent calling by the French and EU against the U.S. and England on the use of the ECHELON system that caught Airbus bribing head officials. Basically the French are calling for an investigation of the two governments information system. NOt pleasing either government. (There not going to let the EU or French anywhere near it).A little rememberd fact is that on the same day the A32X order was announced and love was claimed between the EU and England, BA once again snubbed the Airbus and the lucrative widebody deals and purchased 16-20 more 777-200ERs.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 5:42 am

Does anybody know how far that does affect the total order-numbers at Farnborough ?
 
Guest

RE: Ab.400

Mon Jul 31, 2000 5:55 am

Hi,

I love this topic for some reason, and thus I am posting through the night, with a coffee for company.

I'm not sure what you meant by the above affecting Farn. orders. Do you mean the political or common-sense approach?

Airbus did out-gun Boeing with orders, raking up $18 billion. The break-down was posted earlier, check out Boeing/Airbus website for details.

This provides further proof that Boeing do need to do something though; Airbus have prooven themselves to be akin a Velociraptor in Jurassic Park.

Very clever, and very vicious.

I get the impression other airlines aren't quite sure what to make of the A3XX/747X. And to be honest, I think EK knew damn well it was going to get massive PR fallout for being the 1st A3XX customer.

Anyway, I am drifting off the topic and to sleep. Anyone have any thoughts about SQ's intentions? I think EK want a 50:50 split between Boeing/Airbus though.
 
CX747
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RE: Ab.400

Mon Jul 31, 2000 6:00 am

What we have to remember though is that Boeing is still ahead in orders along with dollar value for their current sales. Airbus did "out gun" Boeing at the show, but they are not near Boeing's pace of selling this year. I have been told that many 777-200LR and 300ER orders are to come in the following months.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 7:27 am

Since the first A3XX won´t enter service before 2005/6, it might be that airlines at least want to have a foot in the door at Airbus when it comes to final decisions to place a firm order or not.
 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: Mmmmm...

Mon Jul 31, 2000 11:12 am


>>
This, I'm sure, will also have political implications. Whatever you may
say about BA and liberal attitudes, the British and American governments
have, and always have had, (since the WW) a very strong relationship.

Although BA are now privatised, the British Government, I'm sure, will be
keeping a subtle eye on BA's bulk orders. In the interests of preserving
their strong relationship with the Clinton Admin., they may lean on BA to
"look carefully" at Boeing's offerings.
<<

C'mon. Get real here! AI is partly owned by BAE (20%), there are lots of jobs
depending in Britain on the performance of Airbus. Also, the British
Gov. just began to throw money into the A3XX, how anyone in his/her right
mind would suggest that they would push for the competion?!?

Janos
 
Hamlet69
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 11:22 am

True, but remember BAE Systems also has substantial subcontracting work for Boeing, as well. And, although I don't believe in them, there have been constant rumors that a merger is pending. Even if it isn't true, it shows the level of cooperation between the two companies. Also remember that the U.K. is the largest investor in the U.S., much larger than Japan.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 1:17 pm

Although Hamlet69 did not indicated I assumed he answered my post.
He wrote;

>>
True, but remember BAE Systems also has substantial subcontracting work
for Boeing, as well. And, although I don't believe in them, there have
been constant rumors that a merger is pending. Even if it isn't true, it
shows the level of cooperation between the two companies.
<<

yes, but as far as I know BAE works with Boeing on military projects (JSF, etc.).
So, one would assume the British Gov. would promote US products when
military stuff is purchased and AI products when civilian. That would put
up the smiling face toward all direction and would be in accord with the
British interests (IMHO).

Janos
 
CX747
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Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 1:32 pm

While BAe does have a large share of interest in Airbus, Boeing actually provides more jobs and $$$ for the British aerospace industry than Airbus. As for Airbus having a tendency to be choosen for civilian transports, other than the recent A32X order by British Airways, Boeing has always been the dominant force in British Airways fleet. Recent orders for the A32X are substantial but Airbus will not be making a profit on the sale. They basically wanted to place aircraft in British Airway's fleet. The large fleet of 747-400s and 777-200ERs will in my opninion lead to a 747-400X, 747X and 747X Stretch order.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
pandora
Posts: 393
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BA Not To Buy A3xxs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 3:38 pm

Why did you think BA cancelled orders for 747-400s???

So there's no way B(oeing)A(lways) will buy A3xx!!!
 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 4:07 pm

CX747 wrote:
>>
While BAe does have a large share of interest in Airbus, Boeing actually
provides more jobs and $$$ for the British aerospace industry than
Airbus. As for Airbus having a tendency to be choosen for civilian
transports, other than the recent A32X order by British Airways, Boeing
has always been the dominant force in British Airways fleet.
<<

Stop, stop here! Time out! Who the heck was talking about Airbus
having a tendency to be choosen for BA? All what I said was that
IMHO the British Gov. will not promote the 747X over A3XX, au
contraire. Guys, don't tell me that someone would promote the
747X after subsidysing the A3XX with a billion or so. That is
just does not make sense!!

>>
has always been the dominant force in British Airways fleet. Recent
orders for the A32X are substantial but Airbus will not be making a
profit on the sale. They basically wanted to place aircraft in British
Airway's fleet. The large fleet of 747-400s and 777-200ERs will in my
opninion lead to a 747-400X, 747X and 747X Stretch order.
<<

look, you can have whatever opinion you want. But I would not
rely on it. You was one of the advocate of this 'Farnborough the
777 show' idea, and I am sorry it was rather a huge disappointment.

Janos
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2460
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Mon Jul 31, 2000 4:53 pm

Magyar,

I wouldn't exactly call 63 orders/LOIs a "big disappointment." Compare that to 22 A3XX LOIs. Even more so, compare 63 777s to 35 A330s, -200s at that, a plane the 777 doesn't compete with. A big 0 A340 orders or LOIs.

OTOH, I will agree with you that it could have been alot bigger. Certainly more customers could have been announced (I know of 4 that are very close). However, I imagine Boeing wanted something to announce later on, or contracts simply were not signed in time.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
CX747
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RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Tue Aug 01, 2000 12:10 am

It is true that I thought Farnborough would contain more orders for the 777 from new airlines. But to say that it wasn't a successful show for the 777 is ridiculous as Hamlet69 clearly showed the "numbers". As for BA ordering the A3XX because they recently cancelled 5 747-400s, that is incorrect. The 5 747-400s were cancelled in favor of more 777-200ERs. I have been told that in the near to medium future British Airways will order the 777-300LR.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Trvlr
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Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Tue Aug 01, 2000 12:16 am

If BA wanted more capacity on the LON-NYC routes then couldn't they just change some of their 767 and 777 flights there to 747s?
 
Guest

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Tue Aug 01, 2000 2:34 am

Trvlr

Hi,
I think most airlines would want to carry many people on just one airplane, rather than many people on many airplanes; BA, and all other airlines have to pay each time one of their a/c lands at an airport (even their own base). So, if many people want to fly to a particular place (LHR-JFK), they'd rather fly them all at once in one big plane, to minimise costs.

So, if demand outsrips present supply, there are two choices for BA. More 747's a day, or smaller numbers of bigger 747's or Airbus'.

BA knows that, and needs to make a choice soon for VLA (or so we think). Which one though?...
 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Tue Aug 01, 2000 7:30 am

Hamlet69 wrote:

>>
I wouldn't exactly call 63 orders/LOIs a "big disappointment."
Compare that to 22 A3XX LOIs. Even more so, compare
63 777s to 35 A330s, -200s at that, a plane the 777 doesn't compete with. A big 0 A340 orders or LOIs.
<<

earlier he wrote:

>>
Topic: RE: Farnborough Orders So Far  
Username: Hamlet69 [User Info]
Posted 07-26-00 05:06 and read 267 times.

FLY777UAL,

I hope you know something I don't, because the conference is over, and nothing new came out of it. Still only the 5 announced customers (EK would make 6). Rather disappointing to a huge 777 fan.
<<

are we gonna argue now, what is the difference between "big disappointment" and "rather disappointing"?
also

<<
Topic: RE: Farnborough Orders So Far  
Username: Hamlet69 [User Info]
Posted 07-26-00 23:59 and read 127 times.

I couldn't agree with you more. For all the hoopla leading up to
this show, it has been very disappointing, as all the big news
has come from the leasing companies, and how boring is that? One
thing to point out:
The very knowledgable Russ Short from the Orders forum has
reminded the group that the last time leasing companies placed
this great a number of orders (late '80s), a full 1/3 were NEVER
delivered. I think about this as I look at all those LOIs and
MOUs, which are alot easier to let slide than a firm order is.
<<

I just want to remind everybody that more than 40 out of 63
orders/LOIs for 777LR placed by two leasing companies. In
the case of A3XX it is 5 out of 22.

Janos
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2460
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: BA To Buy 10 A3XXs

Tue Aug 01, 2000 8:07 am

Magyar,

I guess you want an explaination now, don't you:

To me, the entire show was "a big disappointment." With all that was expected beforehand; launches of 767NG program, A330-100X program, possibly 747X program, large customer announcements for 777LR, A3XX and 767-400ERX.

And what do we get; large LOIs from leasing companies. That's it. When I say it was a disappointment to me personally that there wasn't more 777LR announcements, I mean it.   However, I doubt it was a very disappointing show to the 777 program at Boeing, with new (potential) orders for 63 aircraft, almost half of the show total.

So to clarify:
Big Disappointment = me
NOT Big Disappointment = Boeing

As far as the percentage of leasing orders goes, I mean it. The is a definite potential there that alot of those LOIs don't get turned into firm orders, or at least don't get delivered. That said, I believe larger aircraft (A330, 777, A3XX) stand a better chance of seeing the delivery day, simply because there isn't as many outstanding leasing orders already in place.

If you need me to, I'll explain farther.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.

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