roseflyer
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Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:48 am

Delta is in talks to start service from Cincinnati to Terre Haute Indiana.
http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_story_104222015.html

excerpt:
Terre Haute International Airport authorities have announced they are working on a deal with Delta Airlines to bring passenger flights to Terre Haute.

If everything comes together as Terre Haute leaders hope, the airport at Hulman Field would be a hub for Delta's connection carrier, Big Sky Airlines, and would make air travel possible without driving to Indianapolis.

http://www.mywabashvalley.com/content/fulltext/?cid=3521

It is interesting to see DL being the airline that is trying to expand in the Midwest. United and US Airways have failed at serving Terre Haute in the past. DL has been announcing tons of international destinations and expanding, but there has been little expansion on the home front to new destinations within the United States. Hopefully DL will serve Terre Haute and that the service will be successful. Maybe the city could get a CRJ to ATL one day. I would first have expected UA or AA back to ORD or NW to DTW, but DL will be a awesome addition if they do start service in two to three months.

If Delta does come to Terre Haute, it would be great for the city. It use to have nonstop service to IND with US Airways' hub in the 1990s and service to Chicago as well. New service to the city of 60,000 would be a boost to the economy. The city is home to a number of wealthy residents and also is home to Indiana State University and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology.

[Edited 2007-04-16 04:02:53]

[Edited 2007-04-16 04:09:48]
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Cubsrule
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RE: Delta To Possibly Start Service To Terre Haute?

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:57 am

The interesting part of this is that they might actually pick up a MDW flight or two in the process. I assume that the planes that do the MDW-SPI stuff already go to Terre Haute for m/x, and this might mean that they start selling tickets.
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USPIT10L
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
If Delta does come to Terre Haute, it would be great for the city. It use to have nonstop service to IND with US Airways' hub in the 1990s and service to Chicago as well. New service to the city of 60,000 would be a boost to the economy. The city is home to a number of wealthy residents and also is home to Indiana State University and Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology.

No one has served HUF since United in 1996. US pulled out in 1989.
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mtnwest1979
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
The interesting part of this is that they might actually pick up a MDW flight or two in the process. I assume that the planes that do the MDW-SPI stuff already go to Terre Haute for m/x, and this might mean that they start selling tickets.

Why does GQ do mx in HUF?

As for 'DL' service, it is quite a drop off talking about DL flights, when actually they would be BE1900s. The ordinary pax in Terre Haute will be thinking larger planes, only to be disappointed.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
Rookinla
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:01 pm

This would be good news for Terre Haute for sure! Since my family is from Terre Haute I can comment on this. First I do think that DL can make the B1900D work from HUF-CVG at 3X Daily. I do question the number of wealthy residents though. Every city has a "number" of wealthy residents...The question is: What % of the population could be considered "wealthy"? In Terre Haute not that many compared to many communities still missing air service. HUF's cachement area is not much bigger than the 60K city population I don't believe. This has to be related to aircraft MX I think. Terre Haute is a short drive to IND as well. This now makes the point I have made over and over again very valid. If you have the $ to guarantee revenue...then DL will come. Again the example I have used repeatedly is OCF. A cachement area more than 4 to 5 times the size of HUF's. No air service. I will definitely guarantee you that the percentage of "wealthy" residents is higher as well...more potential passengers to use the service. The difference is simple...The City of Ocala will not guarantee revenue. Stupid move...very smart move for Terre Haute. I applaud you for trying to improve the financial outlook of your city by using air service to bring in bigger business. Congrats and good luck...This new service will be a success.
 
Rookinla
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 3):
As for 'DL' service, it is quite a drop off talking about DL flights, when actually they would be BE1900s. The ordinary pax in Terre Haute will be thinking larger planes, only to be disappointed.

Who suggested that these flights would be Delta mainline flights? Nowhere in that article did it infer that the flights would be mainline. Since HUF has not seen commercial service since the 90s, I don't think that there would be much disappointment with the B1900D aircraft. A small commercial aircraft is better than none at all...Which is exactly what HUF will get if DL/Big Sky doesn't start this service. Besides, if you look at the history of HUF, most of the service was on commuter aircraft of a similar size. This service will work without any doubts.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 5):
This service will work without any doubts.

I'm not so sure about that. There are plenty of other similarly sized cities or large cities that can't make air service work well. Terre Haute use to be a thriving city, but its economy isn't that great anymore. It has a little industry left and has some higher education establishments, but it is still a rather poor city in the midwest.
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SkyyMaster
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
I'm not so sure about that. There are plenty of other similarly sized cities or large cities that can't make air service work well. Terre Haute use to be a thriving city, but its economy isn't that great anymore. It has a little industry left and has some higher education establishments, but it is still a rather poor city in the midwest.

I have to agree. There's adequate airline service in all directions within a few hours drive. Unless this is an EAS route, which it should not be, I can't see this being successful. If DL were going to have flown into it, the logical time to do so would have been when the CVG hub was at it's peak and using FRJ's. Nothing personal against the BE1, but one or two flights on one of those is not exactly endear first time fliers to come back.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
I'm not so sure about that. There are plenty of other similarly sized cities or large cities that can't make air service work well. Terre Haute use to be a thriving city, but its economy isn't that great anymore. It has a little industry left and has some higher education establishments, but it is still a rather poor city in the midwest.

Terra Haute is now competing with Kokomo for being the slowest part of Indiana economically. The Toyota plant at Princeton is too far to the south
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Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 3):
Why does GQ do mx in HUF?

Sorry, I should have been more clear, but I was illiterate yesterday. GQ doesn't do any m/x at HUF currently, but it would seem that the "hub" to which the article refers would have to be a m/x base. If that's the case, it would be likely that the birds flying the MDW routes would also have m/x done at HUF, and HUF might get a revenue flight to MDW or two out of the deal. Again, I apologize for the confusion. If I'd read the article correctly the first time around, it wouldn't have happened.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ORDTerminal1
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:46 pm

Why Terre Haute when you can start service to LAFAYETTE?! We have an Eli Lilly Plant here...thats gotta mean some premium pax...right? its hopeless.
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deltadc9
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 8):
Terra Haute is now competing with Kokomo for being the slowest part of Indiana economically. The Toyota plant at Princeton is too far to the south

That Toyota plant only served to replace part of the industrial base that has fled southwest Indiana for many reasons.

Chrysler, International Harverster, Arkla, dozens of plastics companies, dozens of furnature companies, and on and on.

Even companies that stayed, like Whirlpool, have shrunk their operations dramatically.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 8):
Terra Haute is now competing with Kokomo for being the slowest part of Indiana economically. The Toyota plant at Princeton is too far to the south

ANY city that is not named Indianapolis in Indiana suffers from that giant sucking sound form the center of the state.

Evansville has had a population of 130,000 or so for over 100 years. Zero growth.

Just not seeing a need for air service to Terre Haute, nobody can even make EVV-IND service work with a King Air sized plane and that is a much bigger target market.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
SBN580
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:32 am

I wonder if I can get them to pick me up in Bloomington on the way to CVG.  scratchchin  Seriously, I hope this works. I am all for restoring service to smaller cities and not have to make a drive as long as the flight to the big city airport.
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deltadc9
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting ORDTerminal1 (Reply 10):
Why Terre Haute when you can start service to LAFAYETTE?! We have an Eli Lilly Plant here...thats gotta mean some premium pax...right?

I dont know about Eli Lilly, but in Evansville, Bristol Myers Squibb has two corporate jets based there (one a tri-jet) along with several other companies with corporate jets there, and other corporations like Vectren time share King Airs etc to avoid relying commercial carriers for many reasons.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 5):
Who suggested that these flights would be Delta mainline flights?

What I meant is, if this service starts under the Delta code, you can be damn sure the newspapers, as well as other news outlets, will say ":Delta to serve Terre Haute" or something along those lines. Heck, look at the title to this thread.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
deltairlines
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:28 am

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this flight was at-risk for Big Sky - several of their BOS markets will be flying as at-risk, meaning that it doesn't hurt DL if it fails, but if the flight is wildly profitable, DL doesn't see any of the money. If the flight is for MX purposes as well (and a HUF-MDW connection), then I would be pretty sure it's at-risk flying under the DL code.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 15):
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this flight was at-risk for Big Sky

That's interesting. Terre Haute will be putting up money for this flight, so it could be Big Sky cooperating with them.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):
That's interesting. Terre Haute will be putting up money for this flight, so it could be Big Sky cooperating with them.

If Terre Haute is putting up money, then HUF fits the mold of markets GQ is looking at from MDW... small markets with no markets and subsidies. If that's the case, MDW might be more likely than CVG (MDW would be flown as GQ).
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Rookinla
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 11):
Just not seeing a need for air service to Terre Haute, nobody can even make EVV-IND service work with a King Air sized plane and that is a much bigger target market.

Intra-Indiana flights and flights from an Indiana city to a major airline hub are two totally different subjects here. First, don't forget that EVV shares a cachement area with OWB...just across the Ky border only 40 miles away. Big Sky is starting DL Connection service OWB-CVG on June 1st. Although the service is only on B1900D aircraft, that is market share taken from EVV. HUF fits the same mould as Owensboro and Cape Girardeau...small communities that can not support a larger aircraft operation. But time will tell if this small-scale service can work...I say yes. These three cities will not have competition anytime soon...very little risk IMHO...especially when you consider that Terre Haute is ponying up a good prtion of the cash and the other two are EAS. I think that you will see GQ add other similar cities from CVG.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 8):
Terra Haute is now competing with Kokomo for being the slowest part of Indiana economically.

No arguments here. I know Terre Haute very well. My family is from there and I've spent much time there...Not exactly the fast lane. But GQ is hoping for 70% LF at HUF. 3X Daily CVG=57 seats each direction daily...Only need about 42 passengers daily...I don't believe that you won't see that number on average. And yes...CVG doesn't have the same number of flights that it used to, but the connection opportunities are still adequate enough to bring the passengers in.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:08 pm

I could see LAF being a little more feasible than HUF, but I'm not in the airline management business either.

What's the drive time (driving reasonable speeds) from Terre Haute to IND?
 
Indy
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:44 pm

Driving the speed limit it is 1 hr 13 minutes from Terre Haute, IN to IND according to Google Maps.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 19):
What's the drive time (driving reasonable speeds) from Terre Haute to IND?

IND is on the west side of Indianapolis, so its a bit shorter of a drive (if IND was on the east side of the city, then Terre Haute would qualify for EAS). Typically when I fly out of IND from Terre Haute, I'd leave 2.5-3 hours before my flight. A flight from HUF would require me to leave less than 1 hour before departure time. If you add on the convenience of free parking, no lines, and predictable security, it is a whole lot more convenient.

Also don't forget that there are no signifcant airports west, north or south of HUF for quite a while. Southern Illinois doesn't have that spectacular of air service, yet there are towns of 2000-3000 people scattered everywhere. Indiana is quite populated too. While rural areas don't generate a lot of air travel, they do some.
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Rookinla
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
Also don't forget that there are no signifcant airports west, north or south of HUF for quite a while.

 checkmark 

Distances from Terre Haute:

Lafayette 102 mi.
Evansville 110 mi.
Bloomington, IL 140 mi.
Champaign, IL 91 mi.
St. Louis, MO 168 mi.
Cincinnati, OH 186 mi.
Lafayette-Indianapolis 63 mi.

These distances are more than far enough for a traveler to choose HUF. Easier and much quicker. As was noted above, figure the smaller towns within a close proximity of HUF (both in Indiana and Illinois) and you should have a market that can sell at least 42 daily seats. Cincinnati was listed to show that this would be a good connecting hub for HUF passengers. It's only 186 mi east so there would not be much backtracking for HUF passengers going west. The same can not be said for GQ's new Cape Girardeau service though... Those passengers would have been better served through a different hub (such as DFW-American Eagle...but I don't think that they bid on the EAS contract). As far as Lafayette service goes, they will have to make a pitch to GQ or another airline and show that they can support the service. Oh...don't forget to bring a stack of cash to the bargaining table. This tends to motivate air carriers these days...
 
Flighty
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:34 am

This is a really neat pricing question.

How cheap does it need to be to fill the planes with some of those who today drive to IND?

Can you break even running Beechcraft at that price in IND?

In my opinion airlines really give the short shrift to cities like this... it's ALL ABOUT PRICING.... if they have the guts to sell $199 Orlando tickets (if need be) to fill the seats rain or shine. And of course the $600 biz tickets. All too often the leisure demand cushion is IGNORED in markets like this.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:04 am

 
Tornado82
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
All too often the leisure demand cushion is IGNORED in markets like this.

As it should be. The idea of providing service to these markets (especially when it's gov't subsidized in some form) isn't to make it cheap for mom and dad to take the kids to see the Mouse in Florida, it's to provide business travel. That's why using SCASD's or local monies for niche leisure airlines like Allegiant bothers me to no end. The government should be trying to spur the business climate, not vacationers taking money OUT of the respective area.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 25):
As it should be. The idea of providing service to these markets (especially when it's gov't subsidized in some form) isn't to make it cheap for mom and dad to take the kids to see the Mouse in Florida

What you say makes perfect sense, but leisure traffic will help these flights work. There isn't enough business traffic alone. But leisure traffic will help fill the planes. With service in place, maybe Terre Haute would be slightly more attractive for businesses. With an airlink, the city might have a better hope of attracting an automotive plant or something in that genre. Leisure travel will help keep the planes filled and justify costs. Airlines can earn money transporting people on vacation.

I do understand your problem supporting an airline like Allegiant. But Allegiant is still a good thing.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Flighty
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:24 am

I see what you are saying about Allegiant. That seems crazy. But I believe low prices can lead to more revenue... more flights... less subsidy. At least in these $500 fare turboprop markets, there is more money there if you sell a product the people actually want to buy. Can a turboprop survive on $150 MCO fares, no, but it's free money since you're already there for the $500 businessman.

Edit: what Rose said.

[Edited 2007-04-17 22:25:51]
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:47 am

I have to give Terre Haute a big thumbs up for DL service!

When in F/A training for TZ, one of my classmates invited us to her parents at Terre Haute for Thanksgiving of 2002. Her father is an MD pilot for DL, her mother a preacher. He paid to rent a 15 pax van for a group of us to take to the festivities. Between her family and the church congregation, we had quite a treat! Made for a great Thanksgiving.

Good luck Terre Haute!

M
 
LGAtoIND
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:02 pm

IMHO, LAF has a better chance than HUF for airline service. LAF's economy seems to be a bit better, they have big corporations (Eli Lilly, Subaru,etc.) and of course, Purdue University. They are also both roughly the same distance from IND.
 
Rookinla
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 29):
LAF has a better chance than HUF for airline service.

LAF could see service in the future. But for now, Terre Haute is in negotiations with DL/GQ and Lafayette is not. So it looks like HUF will probably win for now.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 29):
IMHO, LAF has a better chance than HUF for airline service. LAF's economy seems to be a bit better, they have big corporations (Eli Lilly, Subaru,etc.) and of course, Purdue University. They are also both roughly the same distance from IND.

However, LAF is closer to more air service. SBN is fairly well-served, GYY is getting there, and MDW is less than 2 hours away.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Tornado82
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):

However, LAF is closer to more air service. SBN is fairly well-served, GYY is getting there, and MDW is less than 2 hours away.

In a Cessna 152 maybe?

I've driven IND-LAF, and LAF-VPZ numerous times. You're hauling (butt) to make it to VPZ from LAF in 1:45... 2 hours won't get you anywhere near SBN nor MDW.. and will just get you in the ballpark of GYY. You're looking for 3 hours or more to MDW from LAF with traffic considerations.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 32):
You're looking for 3 hours or more to MDW from LAF with traffic considerations.

...and 2 easily once the all of the construction is done in the fall. The point is that LAF has 3 airports with commercial service within about the same distance as HUF-IND (I thought there was an easier way to drive to SBN; I obviously need an Indiana geography review). And, FWIW, IND-LAF is a significantly shorter and easier drive than IND-HUF.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Tornado82
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):

...and 2 easily once the all of the construction is done in the fall.

If Barden's boats up in Gary are giving odds with 2 hours as the over/under... I'll put $500 on the over, regardless of any construction. And I drive quite fast.  checkeredflag 
 
indywa
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:45 am

Most definately more than 2 hours...I drive frequently between IND and MKE, so trust me. Anyway, I just wonder how Big Sky is going to put 1900's in CVG. IIRC I thought all the ones flying for DL were going to BOS.
 
ATAIndy
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 11):
Just not seeing a need for air service to Terre Haute, nobody can even make EVV-IND service work with a King Air sized plane and that is a much bigger target market.

Very true, Indiana leaders have been trying for years to get intrastate service back, but all they got was that very short fling with Chicago Express.

http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=22629

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 25):
That's why using SCASD's or local monies for niche leisure airlines like Allegiant bothers me to no end.

I totally understand your beef with Allegiant, but the case with HUF is different. If HUF got air service, it would most likely be to CVG or possibly MDW, not LAS or other leisure markets. This still attracts business travels who can then connect to other destinations along with those who want to see, as you said it, "the Mouse in Florida."

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 29):
IMHO, LAF has a better chance than HUF for airline service.

I don't think I agree 100% with you there, for reasons already mentioned, however I would love to see LAF service!

-Feister
Boiler up! - Next flights: IND-MIA, MIA-IND
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 34):

If Barden's boats up in Gary are giving odds with 2 hours as the over/under... I'll put $500 on the over, regardless of any construction. And I drive quite fast.

Mapquest says 1:40. It's about 1:25 if you drive 80 on 65, which is definitely feasible. 65 isn't bad for traffic, though 90 and 94 definitely (and adimtedly) can be.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
milesrich
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RE: Delta Looking At New Service To Terre Haute IN

Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:02 pm

HUF had little service before deregulation; AL B-99 via BMG from ORD. TW actually operated DC-9's into HUF for a short period of time in 1967-68 after retiring their L-749's, but then pulled out.

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