SANFan
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SAN Air Service To Canada

Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:16 pm

I'd like to get thoughts from the A.net Expert Panel concerning San Diego and our dingy history of Canada air service.

There was a thread a few days ago (MSY Still On AC Route Map...Why?) that got kind of hijacked onto the subject of SAN and YYZ (a few familiar faces showed up there) and I figured if a dedicated thread was available, more people would see it and additional ideas might come forth.

The main question is: what keeps going wrong with SAN-Canada service? YVR has seen several starts by CPAir, AS, HP and AC/Jazz (and only one is still with us); AC has tried YYZ (and YUL?) before and, according to some, we may be on the verge of losing the service again, later this year. Westjet tried YYC 2 years ago and quietly left town without even a "goodbye".

The routes wouldn't keep getting started if there weren't numbers to support them, right? Why has nothing ever stuck? It makes sense that there would be several markets in Canada that should support service to Lindbergh Field; I would think the mild winters as well as summer (golf, beaches and Mexico) would bring Canadians here and I expect plenty of San Diegans head north for the summer. There should be at least some business travel too.

On the other thread, Longhauler reported that the loads to YYZ are not adequate for the A319 (back on the route as of April 1), the E190 is not really suitable for the stage length of the flight, and that the flight is under review and may disappear in the Fall. A couple of us mentioned that its departure and arrival times are bad but can't be corrected due to lack of UA gate space at the optimum departure time (morning). San747 asked why AC can't or won't change ground handler in order to score better gate availability. (Gates are scarce in the morning but it could be done.)

As AC is currently one half of SAN's foreign flag inhabitants (AM is the other) I would really hate to see the YYZ route abandoned (again!) (I have no idea how the Jazz flight to YVR is doing.) Does anyone at AC know any more about this situation? Should SAN airport people step in (with incentives like waiving RON parking fees or ??) to "encourage" AC to make it work here? AC certainly doesn't have the visibility or impact that BA had but SAN should be ashamed if they let this foreign flag disappear again.

To me it's just a part of the overall int'l travel curse haunting Lindbergh Field. In this case, however, there's no problem with a/c size, runway length, takeoff weight, etc., so to me that's even more reason to try to get MORE Canada service, and make sure we don't lose any of it!

What do you folks think about this? Opinions, rumors, or even facts would be welcome and appreciated.

bb
 
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lindy field
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:12 pm

Hey bb,

Ah, the weekly (if not daily) SAN topic. The subject of the (lack of) Canadian connections to SAN is a good one. To my knowledge, over the last twenty years, SAN has had short-lived Canadian service from:

Wardair - I recall seeing the signs on the terminal in the late 1980s, I never actually saw one of their aircraft at SAN or even a schedule for their operations at SAN.
Canadian - Came in the late 1990s with service (twice daily?) to YVR, first on F-28s and then on 737-200s. I've seen photos of the 737 at SAN, but never any of the F-28s.
Alaska - As far as I know, their YVR service is seasonal now, flights usually operated by an MD-80 or 737-400
Westjet - 737s a few times a week to Calgary in the summer of 2005, disappeared without a trace although Westjet still appears on the terminal maps on the SAN website.
Air Canada - A319s & E-190s to YYZ, apparently on the chopping block, waiting for a possible reprieve
Air Canada Jazz - CR9 to YVR

I find myself wondering if the problem has to do with the San Diego Tourism Board not making enough (any) effort to market the city abroad. Maybe people abroad and elsewhere in the US simply aren't aware of what San Diego has to offer? It seems like a great winter vacation spot to me. Is the city really too cold in the winter? Is the water not warm enough? Honestly, I can't understand why so many people go on vacation in humid, buggy Florida when they could come to San Diego. There's no comparison.

I suppose the same might be said for the Canadian tourism board. I don't know what the public awareness is in San Diego of the attractions of Vancouver or Toronto, but I suspect it's not particularly high. It might be worthwhile to offer incentives for Air Canada to stay but I think it's essential to attract more passengers to the flights.

Cheers,

Edward
 
LAXintl
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:01 pm

Here is a clue... LA


While San Diego and surroundings are a great place (prob the best in CA), they live in the shadow of big brother Los Angeles.

When it comes to vacationing folks, its somewhat rare that SAN is sold as a single destination. Most generally its sold as either a CA package or more specifically, SoCal package centered around LA and all its sights, with side trips to places such as Palm Springs, San Diego and Las Vegas. Funny enough however is that both LAS and PSP do get sold as single destinations. As far as the business traveller, again big brother LA dominates as quite clearly the commerce and demand outstrips anything SAN could produce. And lastly for the local SAN traveller who's market is again only a small slice under the LA shadow still does have lots of Canada options via one stop services thru airline hubs or more importantly up the 5 freeway at LAX.

Ultimately as with many other San Diego debates, the mere 120mile downtown to downtown distance to Los Angeles continues to hurt the city as airlines clearly would prefer to concentrate resources on the very much larger LA market.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:05 pm

I think we would have to get some input from somebody who is connected to AC network planning. While I'm not at liberty to divulge actual numbers, checked loads on 779/780 (YYZ-SAN-YYZ) for the next few weeks. April is not yet what would be considered peak season, and with the exception of one day, every flight (to & from) is running in the 80% load factor range and higher. I would think that any airline running an operation with these numbers would be happy with these numbers, although I have absolutely no insight into cargo revenue, and the actual numbers of running the operation. If SEA can successfully run a single stand alone flight, I see no reason that SAN is unable to do the same.

Quoting SANFan (Thread starter):
AC has tried YYZ (and YUL?)

There has never been a YUL-SAN connection, nor do I think it would even be considered at this point.
Above and Beyond
 
accargo
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:58 pm

There is no cargo revenue for AC to SAN. AC does not sell cargo space on the Emb to SAN due to belly hold limitations.
Perhaps when the 319 returns we can start selling again, but there is not a lot of demand.

I think part of the problem for AC to SAN may be that the 319 is too big and the EMB only just has the legs to make it but may not be able to handle a full load of pax and all their bags.
 
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longhauler
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:21 pm

Air Canada has placed some restrictions on its EMJ operations that may soon be lifted. I wont go into details here, as they may be company restricted, but they are a result of a few incidents. Embraer has done a stirling job in rectifying the problem.

As a result, during off season, you may well see YYZ-SAN back again in the EMJ route system. Without these restrictions, the route is again viable for the EMJ. I had heard rumours earlier this year about a late YYZ-SAN, with an early SAN-YYZ return, but never heard anything since. Given the information about UAL's severe gate shortage at SAN, that makes sense.
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Bicoastal
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting SANFan (Thread starter):
the E190 is not really suitable for the stage length of the flight

Unsuitable or simply unreliable? The E190 is a lemon. It was consistently late, mostly due to mechanical reasons. Now that the A319 is back on the YYZ-SAN route, on time performance is much, much better.

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
although I have absolutely no insight into cargo revenue, and the actual numbers of running the operation.

AC does not offer freight service on the A319 to San Diego, either. I believe it has to do with customs and bureaucratic constraints on the San Diego end. Do ramp personnel need a customs clearance to handle freight from international flights?

As for the topic, as a native San Diego, the lack of international service to my convenient local airport does not bother me in the least. San Diegans are used to one and two stop service to points on the globe. No big deal. If a business or individual wants a city with extensive air serve then, please, by all means move. We're too crowded as a region already. So if AC and or Jazz suspends service, we'll go back to one stop service to YYZ and YVR. No big deal. Most people travelling Canada-San Diego aren't taking the non-stops now anyway.
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Viscount724
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 1):
find myself wondering if the problem has to do with the San Diego Tourism Board not making enough (any) effort to market the city abroad.

I think one of SAN's problems with respect to Canada service is the fact that it is mainly a leisure market, with little high-yield business traffic compared to LAX/SFO etc. It's easy to fill a flight with tourists if fares are low enough but full flights and profits are not synonymous.
 
accargo
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
AC does not offer freight service on the A319 to San Diego, either. I believe it has to do with customs and bureaucratic constraints on the San Diego end. Do ramp personnel need a customs clearance to handle freight from international flights?

At one point we did. It is more likely the cost of contracting a cargo handler is more than the revenue generated. There are no clearances needed for ramp personnel to handle intl freight, there is however all kinds of paperwork required now,that adds to the cost of setting up a cargo operation in the US.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
I think one of SAN's problems with respect to Canada service is the fact that it is mainly a leisure market, with little high-yield business traffic compared to LAX/SFO etc. It's easy to fill a flight with tourists if fares are low enough but full flights and profits are not synonymous.

I think SAN being a leisure market for Canadians sums this one up. While SAN has some high-tech business travel which makes a direct YVR flight viable, it remains somewhat questionable from places like YYC, YYZ or YUL. After all, my Canadian wife (who loves San Diego BTW since we spent our first weekend together after meeting in a Pacific Beach condo) always points out that SAN is merely a halfway leisure destination (especially during the winter) between Vancouver (YVR) and Cabo (SJD).
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superdawg
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:49 am

I think another issue may be pricing, I am looking at taking my family to SAN but the tickets are usually $100 or more then flights to LAX (from YYC). So for a family of 4 you can save $400 and drive the to SAN for cheaper (assuming you were going to rent a car in SAN anyways) plus you can add on all the added attractions of the Los Angeles area. Or we can assume that people will choose the Los Angeles area over SAN due to the cost savings for the flights. So if this has always been the case (even when there were more direct flights) people may have chosen LAX over SAN and hence lower numbers on the SAN flights.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Superdawg (Reply 10):
I think another issue may be pricing, I am looking at taking my family to SAN but the tickets are usually $100 or more then flights to LAX (from YYC). So for a family of 4 you can save $400 and drive the to SAN for cheaper (assuming you were going to rent a car in SAN anyways) plus you can add on all the added attractions of the Los Angeles area. Or we can assume that people will choose the Los Angeles area over SAN due to the cost savings for the flights. So if this has always been the case (even when there were more direct flights) people may have chosen LAX over SAN and hence lower numbers on the SAN flights.

After checking the websites for YYC-SAN vs. YYC-LAX on both DL (via SLC) or UA (via DEN or SFO), you're very correct about the pricing. The catch here is that even Disneyland just to the south in Anaheim is very reachable from SAN or area hotels. The big negative about LAX is the traffic on I-405 or I-5 and how much you like gridlock and being stuck on a Southern California freeway. Having lived in Riverside for 4 years I'll let you know it sucks, and it is much worse now then it was then. When I go to SAN from SLC, or even SNA for even leisure with the family, I'll just snag a DL flight well enough in advance and rent a vehicle rather than even drive the 10-12 hours from SLC and the Wasatch Front.
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AADC10
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
every flight (to & from) is running in the 80% load factor range

Isn't that only slightly above the legacy carrier mainline average (75% or so overall, probably higher on a prime daytime flight)? Also, as is often mentioned on this board, yield management makes sure all of the flights are full, so it is the yield that makes or breaks a flight but it is often difficult to know what the actual yield is. Another problem is that the A319 is not very fuel efficient and that hurts on a relatively long flight like that.

I see that some people expect tourists from Canada to fly directly to San Diego. Don't forget that the entire population of Canada is only slightly larger than that of California by itself so there are not huge concentrated numbers out there and yields for vacationers are almost always low.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 12):
Another problem is that the A319 is not very fuel efficient and that hurts on a relatively long flight like that.

AC flies relatively long legs on the A319, many which are leisure/VFR based.

YYZ-POS/CCS-BGI-ANU-UVF-GND-SJO & now YYT-LHR to name a few. They all can't be marginally profitable.
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VonRichtofen
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 11):
After checking the websites for YYC-SAN vs. YYC-LAX on both DL (via SLC) or UA (via DEN or SFO), you're very correct about the pricing.

Check YYC-LAX on aircanada.com and you'll really see a price difference. I'm getting $319 CAD rountrip including taxes!!


Kris
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 12):
I see that some people expect tourists from Canada to fly directly to San Diego. Don't forget that the entire population of Canada is only slightly larger than that of California by itself so there are not huge concentrated numbers out there and yields for vacationers are almost always low.

 checkmark  Which is why the trans-border market is so important to Canadian Flag carries like AC and WS.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 14):
Check YYC-LAX on aircanada.com and you'll really see a price difference. I'm getting $319 CAD rountrip including taxes!!

That's the one I didn't have time to check during my break. I just focused on some of the big players in the LAX & SAN markets. At least LAX and SAN don't have outrageous car rental taxes as does SEA, MCI or MIA.
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DCAYOW
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:21 am

If pricing is an issue for the consumer - that is a good thing for the airline. So we have a situation here where the flights are full and they are commanding a premium versus LA - sounds like a situation you don't want to leave.

If they want to pull SAN-YYZ (where they are getting a premium and full flights) in favor of ONT-YYZ - have fun. I can tell you what will happen in that scenario - ONT fares are lower than LA in just about every market, Toronto would be the same.
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Coronado990
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:39 am

Here's a few idea's....

LH: FRA-YYZ-SAN

AF: CDG-YUL-SAN

BA: LHR-YYC-SAN

PR: MNL-YVR-SAN

JL: NRT-YVR-SAN
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 17):
Here's a few idea's....

LH: FRA-YYZ-SAN

AF: CDG-YUL-SAN

BA: LHR-YYC-SAN

PR: MNL-YVR-SAN

JL: NRT-YVR-SAN

Funny thing. AC attempted this in their first foray into SLC from YYZ as a JFK alternative to Europe over DL and they ran from here with their tail tucked between their legs after 6 months.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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longhauler
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 18):
Funny thing. AC attempted this in their first foray into SLC from YYZ as a JFK alternative to Europe over DL and they ran from here with their tail tucked between their legs after 6 months.

Being one of the very few "legacy" carriers to post a profit, one has to wonder if maybe that is not a bad thing. AC is no longer a government owned airline and has no business flying somewhere simply to wave the maple leaf! That is one aspect I admire about airlines like WestJet, if its not paying the bills, they yank the route.

So ACE Aviation (parent company of AC) ran from SLC with its tail tucked between its legs ... right to the bank.
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FLYACYYZ
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 18):
AC attempted this in their first foray into SLC from YYZ as a JFK alternative to Europe over DL and they ran from here with their tail tucked between their legs after 6 months.

As an International gateway to Europe DL is stratospheric at JFK versus AC at YYZ. Something to be said for the expression "Cut your losses and run".

AC gave SLC a shot, it didn't pan out, and they bailed. Obviously there was a bit of a gap in market strategy and expectations and operating reality.

As LONGHAULER pointed out, AC is a private company not interested in waving the flag for prestige reasons, unless the potential for profit exists.
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PanAm747
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:10 am

Quote:
LH: FRA-YYZ-SAN

AF: CDG-YUL-SAN

BA: LHR-YYC-SAN

Those are good ideas, but in the end, do they really offer any benefits to San Diego to Europe flyer over United, Delta, or American (or any legacy carrier)?

For example, if you're booking San Diego to Frankfurt, you can book on either Lufthansa or United's websites. You can book a ticket entirely on LH or UA (even on each others' website!!), and your Star Alliance miles accrue. You can route yourself via LAX (god forbid - terminal 8 to TBIT!!), SFO, DEN, ORD, or IAD.

Now LH flies a 787 into SAN, but it's still a one-stop. What if the times are not convenient? And what real incentive is there to fly the one-stop over a connection? Personally, I definitely would - but I think the airline would not only have to depend on (a) a full cargo container both ways, (b) a demand for the premium cabin both ways, and (c) full 5th freedom traffic rights between all involved cities to make it worth the time and effort.

I think the problem with San Diego - Canada is the fact that it has been found that a non-stop is only marginally profitable. Hopefully the market will pick up to allow more service to be added, but at the moment, I think the market is bearing what the demand is.
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Noise
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 3):
There has never been a YUL-SAN connection, nor do I think it would even be considered at this point.

I've only heard good things about San Diego, but the YUL-SAN O&D market is rather small and will not see non-stop service in the near future unless there is a huge increase in passengers travelling on this route. The YUL-SAN isn't necessarily tiny, it's just smaller than other YUL-Southwestern markets (LAX, SFO, LAS).
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
As for the topic, as a native San Diego, the lack of international service to my convenient local airport does not bother me in the least. San Diegans are used to one and two stop service to points on the globe. No big deal.

 checkmark 

I think some people just like to spot planes! I have done this flight before on USAIR, it was really not much different than a non stop I think. The stop at PHX was so short I didn't have time to buy a sandwich!

Coach: $342 First: $876 9:35 AM San Diego, CA 7:27 PM Toronto, Canada 42 / 262
Stops: PHX
6 h 52 m
 
Trvlr
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 6):
As for the topic, as a native San Diego, the lack of international service to my convenient local airport does not bother me in the least. San Diegans are used to one and two stop service to points on the globe. No big deal. If a business or individual wants a city with extensive air serve then, please, by all means move. We're too crowded as a region already. So if AC and or Jazz suspends service, we'll go back to one stop service to YYZ and YVR. No big deal. Most people travelling Canada-San Diego aren't taking the non-stops now anyway.

This kind of thinking is, in my opinion, exactly what's wrong with San Diego. We don't want to invest in our infrastructure because we think that somehow, if we make life hard enough for our citizens and their businesses, we'll be transported back to those halcyon days when downtown was a dump, but you could drive from here to LA in just over an hour.

The hangover comes when we suddenly find our tax base has dried up, and we can't even support the people who are still left. How are you going fix that deficit when SAIC is back in Virginia, biotech migrates to Florida, and Qualcomm skips town, too?

San Diego has given up a lot of opportunities because of the inadequacy of its airport facilities. Just look at the paragraph above the one I quoted, and you'll see but one of many examples. To many aviation fans, that simply means a less "exciting" mix of aircraft/liveries/etc at our local airport. But in dollar terms, what we're losing out on isn't chump change. It's this kind of service which can make or break the business climate--and hence, the quality of life--of a city.
 
SANFan
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 1):
To my knowledge, over the last twenty years, SAN has had short-lived Canadian service from:
Wardair - I recall seeing the signs on the terminal in the late 1980s, I never actually saw one of their aircraft at SAN or even a schedule for their operations at SAN.
Canadian - Came in the late 1990s with service (twice daily?) to YVR, first on F-28s and then on 737-200s. I've seen photos of the 737 at SAN, but never any of the F-28s.
Alaska - As far as I know, their YVR service is seasonal now, flights usually operated by an MD-80 or 737-400
Westjet - 737s a few times a week to Calgary in the summer of 2005, disappeared without a trace although Westjet still appears on the terminal maps on the SAN website.
Air Canada - A319s & E-190s to YYZ, apparently on the chopping block, waiting for a possible reprieve
Air Canada Jazz - CR9 to YVR

Thanks for your input Edward. (I don't recall WardAir ever running anything scheduled here; maybe an occasional charter?) The only player you missed (that I'm aware of) is HP/Mesa to YVR. They actually were the instigators of the recent YVR "musical chairs" game. Here's my recap of SAN-Canada's recent history:
>11/1/04 HP announced Express daily Express (Mesa?) flts SAN-YVR to start 3/4/05;
>11/29/04 AS counters w/ mainline SAN-YVR flts to start 2/12/05 (before HP!);
>3/10/05 WS announces summer 737 flt to YYC 3x weekly starting 6/2/06 thru 10/11/05;
>7/18/05 AC/Jazz announces daily CRJ-705 SAN-YVR service to start 12/17/05;
>9/6/05 HP discontinues service ("relocating RJs to the East as part of HP/US merger");
>3/7/06 AC announced SAN expansion with YYZ A-319 service to start 7/1/06;
>3/16/06 AC/Jazz releases new 2x daily YVR schedule (inc RON a/c) starting ~ 6/1/06 for the summer;
>June 2006 AC/Jazz maybe operates double daily YVR service a day or 2 then reverts to previous 1x dly flt; my theory -- due to the summer's drop-dead 11:30pm (arr and dep) curfew at Lindbergh for a runway project but others insist due to lack of gate space at UA for morning flt departure of RON a/c. Smaller RJ now servicing route;
>9/10/06 AS reduces YVR to 3x weekly;
>10/29/06 AS cuts YVR service further to Sat only;
>1/6/07 AS discontinues all n/s YVR service (replaces it w/ 1-stop via SFO DIRECT r/t flt);
>1/8/07 AC changes equipment on YYZ flt to E-190
>4/1/07 AC upgrades YYZ to A-319. Rumor is that flight is under review and may end in Autumn 2007...
This is where we stand now.

I agree with many that nearby-LA is a big part of the picture (as always in SD.) Leisure vs business percentages and marketing of the destination in Canada also play a role.

One thing I'm following with interest is what is happening in Palm Springs and its Canadian connections; even closer to LAX than SAN, PSP has AC/Jazz and WestJet (plus Harmony until this month) running multiple flights to YVR, YYC, and YEG during the winter season. Purely a leisure market and I would assume a low-yield market as well, maybe their C of C spends a lot more money on our neighbors to the North?

I do appreciate the discussion and comments here. As usual, San Diego proves to be an enigma, keeping me guessing at what will happen next.

bb
 
san747
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 17):
PR: MNL-YVR-SAN

Likely to happen... Wait for PR to free up an A340 and we're in like Flynt!  Wink

Quoting SANFan (Reply 25):
>4/1/07 AC upgrades YYZ to A-319. Rumor is that flight is under review and may end in Autumn 2007...

Here's a question. Is the YYZ flight really doing that bad as everyone seems to think? It's back to a consisent A319, and a check of FlightAware shows on April 6, they even upgraded the flight to an A320! An AC insider on this thread notes that April, which isn't even a peak time of year, is seeing >80% LF on this flight.

Am I wrong in just taking this for face value? Am I wrong for assuming that the EMB-190 was placed on the route because of the slow winter season and nothing else? I'd like to be as optomistic as possible here without being naive...

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 16):
If they want to pull SAN-YYZ (where they are getting a premium and full flights) in favor of ONT-YYZ - have fun. I can tell you what will happen in that scenario - ONT fares are lower than LA in just about every market, Toronto would be the same.

Except no one wants to fly to ONT. It's one of the most underserved airports in the region, if not the country. I should know, I work there. LAWA is mounting an agressive ad campaign to get people to fly out of ONT, as is ExpressJet, but realistically, most people have a perception (even if it's wrong) that ONT is too far away to be a reasonable substitute for LAX.

And believe me, no one from SAN is going to want to go ONT... I do wish however that ONT would get it's own Canada service, but AC's attempt in 2000 failed horribly.  Sad
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longhauler
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 25):
(I don't recall Wardair ever running anything scheduled here; maybe an occasional charter?)

Wardair used to fly YYZ-SAN-YYZ twice weekly with an A310 in the late 1980's. It ended with the takeover by PWA Corp. The flight was an evening departure from YYZ with a red-eye return. Back in YYZ at 0630.

Quoting San747 (Reply 26):
And believe me, no one from SAN is going to want to go ONT... I do wish however that ONT would get it's own Canada service, but AC's attempt in 2000 failed horribly.

ONT was not intended as a replacement for SAN, just another US destination that was considered. The operating economics of the E190 allow some sort of trial at destinations, where the A319 is simply too expensive an experiment. The per airplane costs of the E190 are about 60% of that of the A319.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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lindy field
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:45 pm

Quote:
Wardair used to fly YYZ-SAN-YYZ twice weekly with an A310 in the late 1980's. It ended with the takeover by PWA Corp. The flight was an evening departure from YYZ with a red-eye return. Back in YYZ at 0630.

Thanks LongHauler for the info about Wardair at SAN, I'm glad my memory hasn't failed me. That must have been the first scheduled A310 service to SAN.

Regards,

Edward
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:56 pm

With respect to AC restoring its original overnighting aircraft schedule, and maximizing connectivity and yields, it sounds like there are severe gate availability constraints at SAN.

Does SAN operate any off-gate operations via PTV's (Bus Operation) to facilitate the overflow??

If so, not sure that AC would be interested in such an operation as it's a bit of pain. During my days of flyings YYZ-SAN, recall seeing several overnighting aircraft parked off-gate.
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Coronado990
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 24):
This kind of thinking is, in my opinion, exactly what's wrong with San Diego. We don't want to invest in our infrastructure because we think that somehow, if we make life hard enough for our citizens and their businesses, we'll be transported back to those halcyon days when downtown was a dump, but you could drive from here to LA in just over an hour.

I heard a lady once say at an airport "town hall" meeting here in San Diego..."we're so close to L.A., do we even need an airport at all"??  banghead 
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PanAm747
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RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:41 am

Quote:
This kind of thinking is, in my opinion, exactly what's wrong with San Diego. We don't want to invest in our infrastructure because we think that somehow, if we make life hard enough for our citizens and their businesses, we'll be transported back to those halcyon days when downtown was a dump, but you could drive from here to LA in just over an hour.



Quote:
I heard a lady once say at an airport "town hall" meeting here in San Diego..."we're so close to L.A., do we even need an airport at all"??

One of the reasons that San Diego is in the financial mess it is currently in is because of the belief of many very long-time residents that:

  • They will wake up one day and find that the military has returned - HUZZAH!! Give three cheers!! - and now every non-native (to be determined by a small group of long-time elite) will be told to move away from "their" paradise. Exclusively military, no-growth, and no visitors.

  • The old manner of doing business - closed doors, sweetheart deals, zero disclosures, and taxpayers to cover the mess - has been tolerated too long.

  • As point out by the airport "town hall" meeting - some people truly believe reverse growth will happen. Why face reality when nostalgia for what was and can never be again is SO much more pleasant?

    Okay, I'm off my soapbox - I love my city dearly, and will defend it to the day I die, but the refusal to do ANY long term planning and the sheer incompetence that is tolerated year after year is sad.

    As for Canada flights, would AC do any better with a red-eye to YYZ? I realize it would be lousy for international connections, but for eastern and central Canada connections it would work well - have a late afternoon arrival into SAN from YYZ (in the late afternoon bank of arrivals), then without having to RON, it could depart around 9:30 PM-ish and return to YYZ, arriving around 6:00 AM. That might not interfere with UA's gate scheduling, would it?

    Also, could AC use the international gates if absolutely necessary?
  • Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
     
    Bicoastal
    Posts: 2446
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:49 am

    Quoting Trvlr (Reply 24):
    The hangover comes when we suddenly find our tax base has dried up, and we can't even support the people who are still left. How are you going fix that deficit when SAIC is back in Virginia, biotech migrates to Florida, and Qualcomm skips town, too?

    Ok, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling. Look on the bright side. Surfers like me will have the waves to ourselves, no traffic, reasonable housing prices, less transplanted New Yorkers with bad attitudes,etc. (Un) fortunately, San Diego will thrive with its just fine airport.

    Quoting San747 (Reply 26):
    FlightAware shows on April 6, they even upgraded the flight to an A320!

    Are AC's 320s containerized in the cargo compartment or open pit? I don't believe UA in San Diego has equipment to handle A320 containers.

    Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 29):
    Does SAN operate any off-gate operations via PTV's (Bus Operation) to facilitate the overflow??

    No.
    Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
     
    Trvlr
    Posts: 4251
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:27 am

    Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 32):
    Ok, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling. Look on the bright side. Surfers like me will have the waves to ourselves, no traffic, reasonable housing prices, less transplanted New Yorkers with bad attitudes,etc. (Un) fortunately, San Diego will thrive with its just fine airport.

    If only this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    Better a chicken little than an ostrich with its head in the sand...

    ---

    Moving back to the topic at hand, I believe that if the E190 has caused as many problems at Air Canada as it has at jetBlue, we're bound to see inconsistency in any route the plane touches. Given the timing of the flight, it looks like the 190 is the best aircraft for the job at the moment. Over at B6, Embraer has been working very hard to fix these problems, so, like a previous poster said, I'm confident that they're making similar progress at Air Canada.
     
    Bicoastal
    Posts: 2446
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:42 am

    Quoting Trvlr (Reply 33):
    this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    The economy is cyclical. San Jose and the Bay Area are booming today...again. San Diego has done the same over the years. Boom and bust are expected phenomena. Let a few companies leave. The void will be filled by something else. It's the natural order of things. We'll never agree on the airport issue. And if you must, housing prices are the biggest impediment to corporate expansion in San Diego. Employees can't afford to live here. The current flattening of the housing market is the best thing to happen here in years. Buy now, if you can.
    Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
     
    Bicoastal
    Posts: 2446
    Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:47 am

    Quoting Trvlr (Reply 33):
    this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    The economy is cyclical. San Jose and the Bay Area are booming today...again. San Diego has done the same over the years. Boom and bust are expected phenomena. Let a few companies leave. The void will be filled by something else. It's the natural order of things. We'll never agree on the airport issue. And if you must, housing prices are the biggest impediment to corporate expansion in San Diego. Employees can't afford to live here. The current flattening of the housing market is the best thing to ha
    Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
     
    Bicoastal
    Posts: 2446
    Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:54 am

    Quoting Trvlr (Reply 33):
    this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    The economy is cyclical. San Jose and the Bay Area are booming today...again. San Diego has done the same over the years. Boom and bust are expected phenomena. Let a few companies leave. The void will be filled by something else. It's the natural order of things. We'll never agree on the airport issue. And if you must, housing prices are the biggest impediment to corporate expansion in San Diego. Employees can't afford to live here. The current flattening of the housing market is the best thing to ha
    Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
     
    Bicoastal
    Posts: 2446
    Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:55 am

    Quoting Trvlr (Reply 33):
    this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    The economy is cyclical. San Jose and the Bay Area are booming today...again. San Diego has done the same over the years. Boom and bust are expected phenomena. Let a few companies leave. The void will be filled by something else. It's the natural order of things. We'll never agree on the airport issue. And if you must, housing prices are the biggest impediment to corporate expansion in San Diego. Employees can't afford to live here. The current flattening of the housing market is the best thing to ha
    Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
     
    Bicoastal
    Posts: 2446
    Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:57 am

    Quoting Trvlr (Reply 33):
    this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    The economy is cyclical. San Jose and the Bay Area are booming today...again. San Diego has done the same over the years. Boom and bust are expected phenomena. Let a few companies leave. The void will be filled by something else. It's the natural order of things. We'll never agree on the airport issue. And if you must, housing prices are the biggest impediment to corporate expansion in San Diego. Employees can't afford to live here. The current flattening of the housing market is the best thing to happen to local economy in years. Buy now, if you can.
    Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
     
    Trvlr
    Posts: 4251
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:02 am

    Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 32):
    Ok, Chicken Little, the sky is not falling. Look on the bright side. Surfers like me will have the waves to ourselves, no traffic, reasonable housing prices, less transplanted New Yorkers with bad attitudes,etc. (Un) fortunately, San Diego will thrive with its just fine airport.

    If only this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    Better a chicken little than an ostrich with its head in the sand...

    ---

    Moving back to the topic at hand, I believe that if the E190 has caused as many problems at Air Canada as it has at jetBlue, we're bound to see inconsistency in any route the plane touches. Given the timing of the flight, it looks like the 190 is the best aircraft for the job at the moment. Over at B6, Embraer has been working very hard to fix these problems, so, like a previous poster said, I'm confident that they're making similar progress at Air Canada.
     
    SJCRRPAX
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:09 am

    Quoting Trvlr (Reply 33):
    If only this city could be like San Jose after the tech bust. Wouldn't that be nice!

    I'm not sure what that is suppose to mean. San Jose is doing OK. I'm a native of San Diego who has been living in San Jose for years because in my occupation San Jose is where most of the jobs are located. I do understand the arguments made by people like bicoastal, truthfully San Diego was a nicer city 40 years ago than it is now, and is a nicer city now than it will be 20 years from now. A few years ago their was no question that I would someday return to San Diego, but now I'm not so sure, San Diego has the weather but in a lot of ways it's no different than LA, San Jose, or Anaheim. I am not sure how important SAN really is to the economic vitality of the city of San Diego. Maybe this is not a fair comparison because SFO is fairly close to SJC, but in all the years of living in San Jose I have never heard of a business not locating here or moving from here because SJC is not adequate. These are some of the reasons I remember being cited, and I would bet San Diego has a similar list. I have never heard anyone site bad airport as a reason. Most companies really don't have all that many people flying around. I could see maybe a huge Japanese company turning down a San Diego Location because the exectutives would be inconvienced because of no direct flights to Japan.

    1. Labor cost too high
    2. Housing cost too high
    3. Office space costs too high
    4. Electricity too expensive
    5. Too much Traffic
    6. Water too expensive
     
    san747
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:54 am

    Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 28):
    Thanks LongHauler for the info about Wardair at SAN, I'm glad my memory hasn't failed me. That must have been the first scheduled A310 service to SAN.

    Wow! One of these guys flew into SAN?


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Gary Watt



    Those were the glory days, huh? In the mid-to-late '80s, we had several 747 services, BCal, and apparently this service!

    Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 32):
    Are AC's 320s containerized in the cargo compartment or open pit? I don't believe UA in San Diego has equipment to handle A320 containers.

    UA flies their own A320s into SAN, so why wouldn't they have the equipment?
    Scotty doesn't know...
     
    san747
    Posts: 4344
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:56 am

    Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 28):
    Thanks LongHauler for the info about Wardair at SAN, I'm glad my memory hasn't failed me. That must have been the first scheduled A310 service to SAN.

    Wow! One of these guys flew into SAN?


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Gary Watt



    Those were the glory days, huh? In the mid-to-late '80s, we had several 747 services, BCal, and apparently this service!

    Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 32):
    Are AC's 320s containerized in the cargo compartment or open pit? I don't believe UA in San Diego has equipment to handle A320 containers.

    UA flies their own A320s into SAN, so why wouldn't they have the equipment?
    Scotty doesn't know...
     
    san747
    Posts: 4344
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:00 am

    Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 28):

    Thanks LongHauler for the info about Wardair at SAN, I'm glad my memory hasn't failed me. That must have been the first scheduled A310 service to SAN.

    Wow! One of these guys flew into SAN?


    View Large View Medium
    Click here for bigger photo!

    Photo © Gary Watt



    Those were the glory days, huh? In the mid-to-late '80s, we had several 747 services, BCal, and apparently this service!

    Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 32):

    Are AC's 320s containerized in the cargo compartment or open pit? I don't believe UA in San Diego has equipment to handle A320 containers.

    UA flies their own A320s into SAN, so why wouldn't they have the equipment?
    Scotty doesn't know...
     
    Coronado990
    Posts: 1312
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:24 am

    Quoting San747 (Reply 43):
    Those were the glory days, huh? In the mid-to-late '80s, we had several 747 services, BCal, and apparently this service!

    Yup. In the late 1980's I'd thought we'd be much further along in the international scene then we are now.

    Looking at the UA gates in SAN, I can see that two SFO flights RON here and take up two overnight gates. Maybe it's time to run an hourly shuttle between SAN-SFO using UA Exp out of the Lindbergh Commuter terminal with the CR7 (can't believe I'm even suggesting this). This would free up a couple of gates at Terminal-1 for AC in the morning...one to YVR and one to YYZ .

    Or...if the YVR flight can leave at 6:30am and the YYZ flight later at 8:00am, then AC could conceivably use the same gate by keeping one RON at the hardstand and towing it over. I'm sure UA could use the extra free gate for something like an earlier flight to IAD at 6:30am.
    Uncle SAN at your service!
     
    SANFan
    Topic Author
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:27 am

    Quoting LongHauler (Reply 27):
    Wardair used to fly YYZ-SAN-YYZ twice weekly with an A310 in the late 1980's. It ended with the takeover by PWA Corp. The flight was an evening departure from YYZ with a red-eye return. Back in YYZ at 0630.

    Thanks from me too, LongHauler; I sure missed that whole chapter in SAN-Canada service!

    Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 29):
    With respect to AC restoring its original overnighting aircraft schedule, and maximizing connectivity and yields, it sounds like there are severe gate availability constraints at SAN.

    I did a quick count the other day FLYAC' and found the number of RON a/c at Lindbergh every night somewhere in the low-50s (not including Commuters); keep in mind SAN has 41 gates (not including the CT). That means currently, about 10 mainline jets have to be towed and remotely parked every night! That also implies that Lindbergh is one hoppin' neighborhood between 6:30 and 9 every morning!

    However, AirTran marches into town and apparently has snagged gate 26 (in T2East) and has an RON on its schedule starting July 10 (with their 3rd ATL flight!) So apparently things can be done and I don't see why that shouldn't include AC...

    As usual, we don't know the whole story: is the YYZ flight really doing poorly (yields?) as it is; has AC tried to make changes in their SAN arrangements; would they really like an RON a/c with a peak-time morning departure from SAN; how is the YVR service doing and would they like that schedule changed as well?

    bb
     
    Trvlr
    Posts: 4251
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:35 am

    Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 40):
    I'm not sure what that is suppose to mean.

    The comment was not intended to address the direct effect of inadequate aviation infrastructure on a city. Rather, it was intended to illustrate the effect of a broader economic downturn on a city. San Jose and many parts of the Bay Area suffered extremely high office vacancy rates after the tech bubble burst, even while housing prices remained high. Anecdotally, however, you'll find many people who see a silver lining in the fact that traffic on the 405 is much better than it used to be. Hence the comparison in response to the quoted post.

    Bringing the analogy back to San Diego, I'd rather see the 5/805 merge expansion completed than see boarded up windows downtown.
     
    FLYACYYZ
    Posts: 1820
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:39 am

    This post is getting alot of mileage!! The fact that the route/flight is underperforming is merely speculative on our part.
    These and other similar posts must generate alot of amusement to folks in various airlines' Network Planning departments.

    Next week there will be a thread highlighting that YYZ-SAN is AC's most profitable route!!  biggrin 
    Above and Beyond
     
    DCAYOW
    Posts: 542
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:44 am

    Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 40):
    I am not sure how important SAN really is to the economic vitality of the city of San Diego.

    Why don't you ask the Convention Center Corporation and the cruise ship industry this question? The convention center uses the airport's proximity in its sales pitches.

    I think TRVLR is right, just look at QUALCOMM. The only thing keeping QUALCOMM here is FAMILY TIES, once QUALCOMM gets management that is not tied to the Jacobs family - anyones guess where they might move. Nobody thought Gateway would move either, yet they did.
    Retorne ao céu...
     
    Trvlr
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    RE: SAN Air Service To Canada

    Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:45 am

    Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 44):

    Looking at the UA gates in SAN, I can see that two SFO flights RON here and take up two overnight gates. Maybe it's time to run an hourly shuttle between SAN-SFO using UA Exp out of the Lindbergh Commuter terminal with the CR7 (can't believe I'm even suggesting this). This would free up a couple of gates at Terminal-1 for AC in the morning...one to YVR and one to YYZ .

    That might not be a bad idea, especially considering UA's CR7s have a premium cabin. However, judging from the reaction on FlyerTalk, a lot of AA frequent flyers were disappointed to see AA's ERJ flights to SJC move to the commuter terminal, because they didn't have access to an Admirals Club anymore.

    In retrospect, it would be interesting to see what American's FF's currently think about the tradeoff between the comfort of the main terminal and the convenience of the commuter terminal.

    As a side note, United is consistently running 11 flights every weekday between SAN and SFO. That's up from 9-10 last year.

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