ShortSquat
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:48 am

United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:44 am

This wasn't too unexpected, but the news is just out --http://airlinepilotcentral.com/resources/news/united_pilots_reject_tentative_agreement_20070420224.html
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:50 am

Actually it was out about 3 hours ago

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070420/united_pilots.html?.v=1

-m

 airplane 
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:31 am

I predict another summer of hell at United. Not enough crew, captains refusing to defer minor maintenance items, lots of cancellations. Make alternative plans on other airlines if you really have to be somewhere.

Thank you UAL Board of Directors and Glenn for your exceedingly bad judgement.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 2):
I predict another summer of hell at United.

Even the pilots aren't stupid enough to pull that again!

-m

 airplane 
 
IPFreely
Posts: 833
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 2):
I predict another summer of hell at United. Not enough crew, captains refusing to defer minor maintenance items, lots of cancellations. Make alternative plans on other airlines if you really have to be somewhere.

Will anyone notice a change?  Smile
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):

Even the pilots aren't stupid enough to pull that again!

We won't have to. However, United management is stupid enough to let it happen again. They simply do not have enough crews in place to fly the Summer schedule. Hell, they don't have enough crews in place to fly the schedule they have now! They cancelled SFO-NGO, SFO-KIX, and SFO-SEL a few weeks ago over the span of 2 days for lack of 777 crews. The T/A would have solved their manpower issues by having the widebody pilots fly 96 hours a month and spend up to 340 hours away from base each month! No thank you Glenn. After his 40 million dollar bonus and my 60% pay cut, I will fly the schedule I'm given and do my job EXACTLY as outlined in our ops manual and contract, and nothing more. This Summer is going to suck, but it won't be the pilots fault. We'll probably get blamed, but it won't be out fault.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 2):
captains refusing to defer minor maintenance items

you know actually, a captain cannot legally defer maintenance items. Anything wrong with the aircraft has to be written up. Now, do pilots sometimes do this, yes. But keep in mind, even though they are trying to help the company every time they do this they are putting their liscence on the line.
 
azncsa4qf744er
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:04 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:07 am

l

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 5):
They cancelled SFO-NGO, SFO-KIX, and SFO-SEL a few weeks ago over the span of 2 days for lack of 777 crews. The T/A would have solved their manpower issues by having the widebody pilots fly 96 hours a month and spend up to 340 hours away from base each month! No thank you Glenn. After his 40 million dollar bonus and my 60% pay cut, I will fly the schedule I'm given and do my job EXACTLY as outlined in our ops manual and contract, and nothing more.

United management has been known to make stupid mistakes ALWAYS!!!!
I too would be pissed off too if my CEO is getting close to $40Mil and I'm taking a pay cut......
I can already feel it "SUMMER OF HELL" is creeping at UAL this summer.....





Yet, it's started already with spring breaks. UAL had so many flights cancelled due to lack of crew it wasn't even funny.
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 6):
you know actually, a captain cannot legally defer maintenance items. Anything wrong with the aircraft has to be written up.

Have you ever seen a MEL? Anything with an (O) before the description means that the pilot is allowed to defer the item for maintenance. I don't know if United's MEL has any (O)'s in it, but if they're there, it can be done legally.
Demand Media fails at life
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 8):
Anything with an (O) before the description means that the pilot is allowed to defer the item for maintenance. I don't know if United's MEL has any (O)'s in it, but if they're there, it can be done legally.

No, never seen one. But it has been described to me by a dispatcher I know. Some things can be deferred, some cannot. I understand that. I stand by what I said though. A crew has to make the write up. The the MEL dictates what actions have to be taken.
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 5):
After his 40 million dollar bonus and my 60% pay cut, I will fly the schedule I'm given and do my job EXACTLY as outlined in our ops manual and contract, and nothing more.


But in all fairness the pilot union did get ridiculous and unsustainable raises in the Goodwin era. I know you are going to say "but the company agreed to it". It was agreed to ultimately by Goodwin, who was put in place after the pilots ousted Edwardson because they didn't usually agree with him and saw Goodwin as a better choice.

Goodwin was selected and supported by the ALPA members of the BOD. Goodwin was the one who ultimately spent hundreds of millions on imposable ventures such as Avolar, the US Airways merger and United Loyalty Services. United Loyalty Services (ULS) was set up by the former CFO put in place by Goodwin and then that CFO went on to be president of ULS (who actually made more then Goodwin). Most profitable ventures were transfered to ULS such as the Red Carpet Clubs, Mileage Plus, and so on. This is all stuff that was and now, after bankruptcy, is handled by United employees. ULS has their own marketing, HR, PR and so forth that was really quite unnecessary. Why spin those off? Once those large profit centers were moved away UA's margins started to drop. Money for operations and additional capital spending were borrowed from the pensions by Goodwin. Instead of using this money for updating the fleet of the profitable world wide freight division or updating the passenger fleet, he tried to start Avolar. Once again millions down the toilet. Once the freight division started to loose customers due to reliability problems with the DC-10's they once again started loosing money but couldn't afford to replace them now with all the biz jets on order. So by this time UA's credit rating was going in the toilet so he was paying cash for the 777 fleet and buying older aircraft off leases so that the rates wouldn't go up with the lower credit rating. This was a huge mistake. He was spending the liquid assets with little thought of future down turns. Most of these older aircraft were owned when new but sold to lease company's and leased back so they could be returned when retirement was necessary. Now cash was not open for operations so loans were taken out against the aircraft at high rates. Then the pilots were fighting for large pay increases while the balance sheet was damaged and Goodwin was doing his best to cover this up and show profits to keep wall street happy. The airline desperately needed to move routes to smaller express RJ's to help move back to profitability but the pilots scope clause prevented that. He would not give in on the clause of no limits on RJ's. This was the summer of 2000. We all know what happened then. The airline was trying not to hire new pilots and rely on the OT of the pilots until they could put the RJ's in place and downsize the mainline fleet. The pilots were not happy with the idea of unlimited RJ's in the fleet so they passed on OT and refused to fly with differed maintenance on aircraft. This drove passenger away from the airline in drones and ruined the UA name for reliability and depressed the revenue. He signed a large increase for the pilots in exchange for the removal of limits on the number of 50 seat RJ's in the United Express fleet. The thought was that they could decrease costs as a hole by operating more routes at mainline revenue with express RJ's making up the difference pilot salary. It didn't turn out that way. Then 9/11 happened and the airline was desperately low on cash and a ton of owned aircraft with large high interest loans. The airline quickly grounded the 727/732 fleets and tried to sell any thing and everything they could. The airline couldn't sell the fleet that was parked because everyone was downsizing and didn't need the aircraft. Then Goodwin sent out the parish email and he soon perished. United desperately tried to liquidate hard assets and clean up the mess that Goodwin made. They looked around and found some one who was good at what he did, Glen Tilton. He wasn't the cheapest but UA already experienced what a bad CEO can do to the company and was fighting for their life. From Glens point of view he has a great job with a good pension and UA had to provide a very lucrative package to bring him over. From the start he tried to clean up the mess. He knew that contracts made by the company previously were not sustainable. However, there was not enough time. The airline tried for subsidized airline loans from the government but we all know why those didn't happen. United entered into bankruptcy to protect its operation. There was nothing they could do...they were in bankruptcy. There was no changing that. So given the circumstances UA used this opportunity to cleanse the finical state of the airline. Everything from leases on the aircraft to toilet paper contracts were scrapped and re-contracted. When all was done, every stone was turned, UA emerged from bankruptcy.

Glenn saved the airline and deserves every penny he gets in compensation. If Edwardson was in power instead of Goodwin this airline would be in a much better position and pensions would more then likely still be around.

So next time some UA pilot tells me that it was evil management that ruined UA, I just think of what the pilots did to UA because they wanted an easier CEO.

I don't shed a tear for those pilots.

-m



[Edited 2007-04-21 05:14:07]
 
GlobalATL
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:00 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:04 pm

Is it any wonder why nothing gets done for the common good. Aren't airlines in business to serve the transportation needs of the flying public?
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:41 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:09 pm

Guess I was the only one to click to learn what the heck T/A was and discover it wasn't what I thought.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:21 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 10):
Glenn saved the airline and deserves every penny he gets in compensation. If Edwardson was in power instead of Goodwin this airline would be in a much better position and pensions would more then likely still be around.

First, something you did several years ago does not deserve continued compensation in perpetuity. Second, a pilot's job is to fly a plane, a CEO's is to run a company. Until pilots are getting paid bonuses at over 1000% of their yearly salary for doing their job well, neither should the CEO.
 
zvocio79
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:33 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 6):

you know actually, a captain cannot legally defer maintenance items. Anything wrong with the aircraft has to be written up. Now, do pilots sometimes do this, yes. But keep in mind, even though they are trying to help the company every time they do this they are putting their liscence on the line.

Pilots can not deffer items on their own, it is the maintenance controlled that deffers the item, and only if its on the MEL book and requieres not maintenance action.
may be the pilots are making up stories......you know how it is when they don't wanna go flying.
 
ual777
Posts: 1507
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting Zvocio79 (Reply 14):

Pilots can not deffer items on their own, it is the maintenance controlled that deffers the item, and only if its on the MEL book and requieres not maintenance action.
may be the pilots are making up stories......you know how it is when they don't wanna go flying.

Ummmm, I defer stuff all the time. If it is not on the MEL, defer it. BTW, for those who don't know, MEL= Minimum Equipment List.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:25 pm

All I would say is that if the Pilots do start buggering around which I dont think they will, I think that there are a lot of FA's that will be really pissed off with them!. I travel a lot on UA and have chattedd to hundreds of FA's, the majority of which felt they got screwed over big time compared with the Pilots. I always remember a story on a flight from LHR to ORD and was discussing this not long after all groupd had taken a large cut........The FA was saying that a pilot got on her flight doing the pre checks and that they were all discussing company matters and the Captain said that he was well pissed off as it meant he may have to give his second home up in Maui...........you can imagine how well that comment went down when some FA's were wondering how the hell they were going to maintain their first property!!! In saying this, IMHO , I think a lot of Pilots have realised that the wages they earned were outrageous and hopefully common sense will prevail this time....I hope!
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 15):
If it is not on the MEL, defer it. BTW, for those who don't know, MEL= Minimum Equipment List.

Every airline I've worked for, if the item isn't in the MEL you can't defer it.
Fly fast, live slow
 
cirrusdriver
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:29 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Even the pilots aren't stupid enough to pull that again!

No????????? June 1st. Mark it...............
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting Tozairport (Reply 5):

We won't have to. However, United management is stupid enough to let it happen again. They simply do not have enough crews in place to fly the Summer schedule. Hell, they don't have enough crews in place to fly the schedule they have now! They cancelled SFO-NGO, SFO-KIX, and SFO-SEL a few weeks ago over the span of 2 days for lack of 777 crews. The T/A would have solved their manpower issues by having the widebody pilots fly 96 hours a month and spend up to 340 hours away from base each month! No thank you Glenn. After his 40 million dollar bonus and my 60% pay cut, I will fly the schedule I'm given and do my job EXACTLY as outlined in our ops manual and contract, and nothing more. This Summer is going to suck, but it won't be the pilots fault. We'll probably get blamed, but it won't be out fault.



Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 10):
They looked around and found some one who was good at what he did, Glen Tilton. He wasn't the cheapest but UA already experienced what a bad CEO can do to the company and was fighting for their life. From Glens point of view he has a great job with a good pension and UA had to provide a very lucrative package to bring him over. From the start he tried to clean up the mess. He knew that contracts made by the company previously were not sustainable. However, there was not enough time. The airline tried for subsidized airline loans from the government but we all know why those didn't happen. United entered into bankruptcy to protect its operation. There was nothing they could do...they were in bankruptcy. There was no changing that. So given the circumstances UA used this opportunity to cleanse the finical state of the airline. Everything from leases on the aircraft to toilet paper contracts were scrapped and re-contracted. When all was done, every stone was turned, UA emerged from bankruptcy.



Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 10):
So next time some UA pilot tells me that it was evil management that ruined UA, I just think of what the pilots did to UA because they wanted an easier CEO.

....what people don't realise is that he took a company basically in Chapter 7 and revived it......he came from a very lucrative oil backround to save the sinking ship.....

Quoting IADCA (Reply 13):

First, something you did several years ago does not deserve continued compensation in perpetuity. Second, a pilot's job is to fly a plane, a CEO's is to run a company. Until pilots are getting paid bonuses at over 1000% of their yearly salary for doing their job well, neither should the CEO.

better to take a pay cut (and not having to displace one's family) than to start over in another company after the company files Chapter 7 and liquidates....

..IIRC, pilots also got stock of the newly-listed company (UAUA)

....I don't know why people don't understand that?  confused 

.......no one is stopping pilots, F/A's ect. from going to school and going into management....its a matter of "wanting to do it"....granted some can't (due to age, family requirements, etc.) but many can....

" Arpey received a Bachelor of Business Administration Degree in 1980 and an MBA in 1982, both from the University of Texas at Austin. He also holds a FAA Multi-Engine Instrument Pilot Rating and is an avid private pilot.

Arpey is a member of The Business Council, serves on the McCombs School of Business Advisory Board at the University of Texas at Austin, and is also involved in a variety of civic organizations. "

http://www.aa.com/content/amrcorp/co...porateInformation/bios/arpey.jhtml
"Up the Irons!"
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 11):
Is it any wonder why nothing gets done for the common good. Aren't airlines in business to serve the transportation needs of the flying public?

In theory yes, but like all businesses, they're there to make money. Obviously, if the service is horrible for too long, it will catch up to them.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
sixtyseven
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:42 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 15):
Ummmm, I defer stuff all the time. If it is not on the MEL, defer it. BTW, for those who don't know, MEL= Minimum Equipment List.

Do you know what you are talking about? Your quote makes no sense. The MEL provides relief for inoperative items. You can't defer something that isn't in the book.

For instance, next time you decide to defer stuff, go ahead and look for Wing, or Engine. They're not in the MEL because they're somewhat required for flight.

I'd say that the next time you try and lecture someone, you should have at least a marginal working knowledge of the subject matter.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
SuseJ772
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:22 pm

This really bums me out. I don't know anything about management, I know nothing about being a F/A, and I know very little about being a pilot. All I know is that I love flying United (just came back from Tokyo last Saturday on them, one of the best flights I have ever been on), and I was thinking to myself I was glad all this was over so United can return back to the great airline it was/is. I guess I'll be holding out a little longer. I really hope everything can get resolved.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
movingtin
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:03 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting SixtySeven (Reply 21):
Do you know what you are talking about? Your quote makes no sense. The MEL provides relief for inoperative items. You can't defer something that isn't in the book.

Hmmm, worn carpet, not in the book. inop coffeemaker, not in the book. galley latches, not in the book! So according to you, the plane is no-go??? not hardly. All airlines have a procedure for defering non safety of flight items. At my airline these Non-essential items dont even require a balancing maint entry until the aircraft transits thru a company staffed maint Station.

The placarding of a flight crew placard-able item is up to the crews discretion. If the crew is out to make a point, they use their discretion by refusing to placard an item and ask for Maint to come out. If you are at an Non-maint sta, then a contract provider has to be called out to placard the item. All fully proper and by the book!

[Edited 2007-04-21 16:14:48]

[Edited 2007-04-21 16:16:02]
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 23):
Hmmm, worn carpet, not in the book. inop coffeemaker, not in the book. galley latches, not in the book! So according to you, the plane is no-go???

Not quite. Those are customer furnished equipment and not covered by the MEL. They are non-safety items and generally logged in the cabin log book. If an item isn't in the MEL or CDL there is no relief. Here's a quote out of our MEL:

The MEL also does not include items which do not affect the airworthiness of the aircraft such as galley
equipment, entertainment systems, passengers convenience items, etc.
It is important to note that ALL ITEMS WHICH ARE RELATED TO THE AIRWORTHINESS OF THE AIRCRAFT
AND NOT INCLUDED ON THE LIST ARE REQUIRED TO BE OPERATIVE. Exceptions are items which have
serviceability specification contained in the manufacturer's Aircraft Maintenance Manual (AMM), Structural
Repair Manual (SRM) or other approved manufacturer's manuals/drawings. In this case, XXX Engineering
will advise the dispatchability of such items with the relevant extracts from the AMM, SRM or other approved
manufacturer's manuals/drawings.


Quoting Movingtin (Reply 23):
The placarding of a flight crew placardable item is up to the crews discretion. If the crew is out to make a point, they use thier discretion by refusing to placard an item and ask for Maint to come out. If you are at an Non-maint sta, then a contract provider has to be called out to placard the item. All fully proper and by the book!

Again, if you read any MEL you will find out if the crew writes something up it's either fixed, or MEL'd. If it's MEL'd then there is a placard system to be followed. It's not up to the crew to do the placard, it's up to maintenance and they will follow the MEL. If it's contract maintenance, then so be it. It's no more or less expensive to have them come out since they're already there. We use contract maintenance in ANC and they meet every flight and will either fix or MEL things as required.

[Edited 2007-04-21 16:32:25]
Fly fast, live slow
 
jetdoctor
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 2:16 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:33 pm

Movingtin

Totally agree with you statement. A deferred item does not have to come from the MEL book. Items can be deferred witha reference to the aircraft AMM, CMM, or a fly by can be generated by means of an engineering order. In some cases we can defer small items by referencing our company GPM, so long as it is minor in nature, an does not affect the airworthiness of the aircraft. (like you mentioned, carpet worn etc...)

Now this has completely gone off topic, I have pity for all the lower rank and file at United. The airline seems to be going back into it's old ways again.

Regards

Jetdoctor
Break ground, and head into the wind. Don't break wind and head into the ground.
 
jetdoctor
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 2:16 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:38 pm

PhilSquares

There are many items in the MEL that are permitted to be crew placardable. The crew will write the discrepancy up, contact a maintenance controller for authorization, and make a second entry with an info to maintenance. The aircraft can now be dispatched, until it reaches a MTX base, where both write ups are addressed.

Completely legal, and done daily at AA

Regards,

Jetdoctor
Break ground, and head into the wind. Don't break wind and head into the ground.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Jetdoctor (Reply 26):
Completely legal, and done daily at AA

Another quote from our MEL:

The affected or associated indicator, controls or switches in the cockpit must be placarded and isolated as per
the MEL.

After engine shutdown, and if the aircraft is to be dispatched with the equipment remaining inoperative, the
placarding requirements of the MEL must be complied with.


According to our MEL we don't have that option. If the defect occurs after all engines are prior to take off the crew is allowed to post a placard if necessary. However, you either go with the defect, after getting MEL guidance and write it up in the tech log for the next station or go back to the gate.

I can't think of any time where I've ever posted a placard. MX, contract or company, meets us 100% of the time.
Fly fast, live slow
 
jetdoctor
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 2:16 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:00 am

PhilSquares

Obviously you MEL procedures give you no relief on crew placards. I should add, that any of our crew placardable items, require no MTX action to comply with the MEL, other than put an inop sticker on the associated shitch etc..
For example : windshield heat fail. That is crew placardable, so long as the captain and dispatcher agree that there is no icing conditions on proposed aircraft route. The crew does nothing more than make the 2 entries I mentioned above, stick a little inop sticker on the pushbutton and flies the route. When the aircraft gets to me, I can either fix the issue, or carry forth the MEL, which means I will make the 2 corrective action signoffs, enter item into MIC sheet, and fill out correct placrds, and send it on it's merry way (until it gets stuck in icing conditions)

Regards

Jetdoctor
Break ground, and head into the wind. Don't break wind and head into the ground.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3365
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting Jetdoctor (Reply 26):
There are many items in the MEL that are permitted to be crew placardable. The crew will write the discrepancy up,

We have a similar system in BA also.
If the MEL requires no maintenance action, or where the defect is considered non-airworthiness, and the defect is acceptable to the Captain on the next flight, the Captain may accept the defect by annotating the log entry ACF (acceptable carry forward), and writing up the entry again on the next sector. Maintenance Control must be notified at the earliest opportunity.
 
mcdu
Posts: 902
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:23 am

Guys and Gals,

This TA turndown will have very little if any implications to the traveling public. Many of you know I am a UAL pilot and I will share my thoughts on this TA. The reason it was voted down is that it had far too many negative modifications to our scheduling sections to offset the pluses of line guar. and duty rigs for the 737 and 320 pilots. Currently on the 737 and 320 you have no min. pay per day. A pilot could leave on a 4 day trip and only be paid for what ours are flown. Sometimes as little as 6 hours of pay for 4 days away. It is scheduling inefficiencies by the company that build trips this poorly. Also, we do not have an adequate trip trading system due to manpower shortages. There is little or no flexibility in the lines of flying and it only takes one thunderstorm delay to disrupt your schedule for an entire month. Usually this results in a pay loss for the pilot.

The pilots wanted better work rules and this TA did not really do that. The company wanted this as it added time available up to 96 hours (which is a lot of flight time if you are not familiar with airline flying) for the month. That is 96 hours in the seat and can have you away from home for up to 340 hours. (we are paid only while the aircraft is moving).

The company has the bodies to fly the summer schedule they are just not in the right bases to do so. For example the IAD to PEK flight is on the 400. We had a small base for the 400 at IAD but not enough bodies to fly the IAD-FRA and IAD-PEK trips. As of now we are either deadheading a 400 crew from ORD or they are flying a W pattern ORD-FRA-IAD-FRA-ORD to cover the flying while they get the pilots transfered and trained at IAD to fly the extra flight. From start to finish it takes about 3 months at a min to train a pilot and have them fully qualified on a new equipment. The addition of PEK from IAD is what triggered this issue and the company wanted to fix it in a cost neutral basis by adding flight time to each pilots monthly calendar to avoid TDY and DeadHeads. Unfortunately there were just too many give backs in the agreement to justify a yes vote. Also, ALPA did a very poor job of communicating the agreement to the pilot group and were not willing to answer the questions the pilots had on the agreement. Most of the questions were answered in a very unprofessional manner and thus led to a revolt against the ALPA leaders.

There are some underlying issues here also. There is a new union that is trying to win over the UAL pilots and have them leave ALPA. With this latest ALPA boondogle they might gain some traction. We will have to wait and see. ALPA definitley has lost face with the membership and I seriously doubt you would ever see the summer of 2000 develop again. ALPA has led us down some dark paths and we are all a bit wiser now than then.

That is my take on the TA and I wish everyone the best.
 
GlobalATL
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:00 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:32 am

United has been in turmoil ever since the ugly Wolf paid them a visit.
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 12):
Guess I was the only one to click to learn what the heck T/A was and discover it wasn't what I thought.

No, I too clicked to see what the buzz was all about only to realize that I was thinking of T AND A!  eyepopping 
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
UnitedTristar
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:45 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 30):
That is my take on the TA and I wish everyone the best.

Thanks for the recap. It is always good to get all points of view. I agree that ALPA has become too focused on revenge to realize that they are destroying the airline. I agree on the work rule thing. It sounds like they need to be changed and some pilots need to be recalled. How many are still being F'ed* and not recalled yet with United?

*(furloughed)

-m

 airplane 
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3652
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:13 am

Is it me, or is Tilton and his team anti employee? You can only snatch out of a persons wallet and time so many times, before all hell breaks loose. It is more than just the pilots that are being pushed by this. Is it time for a serious exec/management change?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 15):

Ummmm, I defer stuff all the time. If it is not on the MEL, defer it. BTW, for those who don't know, MEL= Minimum Equipment List.

Its completely illegal to defer something that isn't listed in the aircraft's MEL.
Demand Media fails at life
 
mcdu
Posts: 902
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 33):
. How many are still being F'ed* and not recalled yet with United?

Tristar,

We furloughed 2,100 +/- and have offered recalls to all of those pilots. On the way down the list a pilot could say no and bypass to the next person. Once they hit the bottom and started back up the list the pilot then had to decide whether to accept recall or be terminated. I have not followed closely but they I believe they are well over half way back up the list and from what I hear they would need to start hiring by year end. So far of the 2100 I think something over 1000 have actually returned. There was a note recently that they offered 100 recalls on the way back up and only received 7 yes'es and the rest resigned. To keep that in perspective however these pilots have been away from UAL since 2001 and most were in their first year of employment. Since they have been gone for over 5 years some have acquired jobs at other carriers and have 5 years of seniority at that other carrier. It would be hard to justify the move back to UAL in my opinion.

I recently flew with a first officer that was hired at AA in the late 80's. He was furloughed from AA and was hired by UPS. He quit UPS to come to UAL. Looking back he might have been better off staying at either AA or UPS but you can only work with the information you have at the time and when he was hired at UAL it looked much more promising. Fortunes change and perhaps we can work our way back to the better career choice.

Cheers,
MCDU
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:22 am

When is UA management going to wake up???? They need to clean house and get new blood in the top management area. The workers have suffered alot and the fat cats (management) are getting fatter by the quarter.
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 15):
Ummmm, I defer stuff all the time. If it is not on the MEL, defer it. BTW, for those who don't know, MEL= Minimum Equipment List.



Quoting Graphic (Reply 35):
Its completely illegal to defer something that isn't listed in the aircraft's MEL.

Not quite.,items that are decorative items such as cabin wall trim,missing paint on the exterior,repair of dents,some fluid leaks may be deferred for time or cycles,these are not covered by the MEL or CDL and are called DMI's or carry forwards.Depends on the operators G.M.M.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
jetdoctor
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 2:16 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 35):
Its completely illegal to defer something that isn't listed in the aircraft's MEL.

I see that some people really need to listen to people that do this job for a living, and having complete understanding for the FEDERAL AVAIATION REGULATIONS, before making a blanket statement, without the knowledge or experience to know otherwise.

This is something that really pisses me off in these posts.
Example: 1+1 =2. Answer: I know someone, whos said this, and that is wrong.
Graphic, show me the damn proof before making statements you are unsure about, btw this has been standard procedure for about 40+ years.

Learn the rules of the game, before spouting BS

Regards, (with a little anger to ignorance)

Jetdoctor
Break ground, and head into the wind. Don't break wind and head into the ground.
 
mcdu
Posts: 902
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:34 pm

Guys,

FIghting over the minutia of the MEL is a bit akin to the ALPA/MGMNT battle. Take a deep breath. Keep it civil and keep it above board. No one agrees with us 100% of the time. I like this A.NET forum because there is a good mix of employees/passengers/enthusiast that take the time to speak about their passion. If we can keep it civil it means a good debate.

MCDU
 
QueenofDaSkies
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:25 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 22):
This really bums me out. I don't know anything about management, I know nothing about being a F/A, and I know very little about being a pilot. All I know is that I love flying United (just came back from Tokyo last Saturday on them, one of the best flights I have ever been on), and I was thinking to myself I was glad all this was over so United can return back to the great airline it was/is. I guess I'll be holding out a little longer. I really hope everything can get resolved.

We are a FABULOUS airline....this is just another "kink" that needs to be worked out and it will be. Thanks for your continued business!
It's time to FLY!
 
movingtin
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:03 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 35):
Its completely illegal to defer something that isn't listed in the aircraft's MEL.

Did you read any of the posts above yours??? I can list literally hundreds of things that can be defered that aren't listed in the aircrafts MEL!!
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 40):
Guys,

FIghting over the minutia of the MEL is a bit akin to the ALPA/MGMNT battle. Take a deep breath. Keep it civil and keep it above board. No one agrees with us 100% of the time. I like this A.NET forum because there is a good mix of employees/passengers/enthusiast that take the time to speak about their passion. If we can keep it civil it means a good debate.

MCDU

Fully agree...to get back on track,was there anything in the T.A. that was a positive for the pilot group?
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 41):

We are a FABULOUS airline....this is just another "kink" that needs to be worked out and it will be. Thanks for your continued business!

...even though I only fly AA now, growing up in north Chicago suburbs and now living in the Bay Area, I've always seen UA as my "hometown" carrier and I wish UA well.... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
mcdu
Posts: 902
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 43):
Fully agree...to get back on track,was there anything in the T.A. that was a positive for the pilot group?

There were two big items that were considered pluses for the pilots. The 737 and 320 pilots would fall under the same pay rules as the 757/767/777 and 400. That is to say we would get duty rigs of 1 for 4 and not have the issue with the 4 day 7 hour trips that seem to pop into the lines now. Also we would be pay protected for the month of flying of whatever we bid. As it stands now if you have an 80 hour line and a turn is canceled you could be down to 70 hours or min guarantee through no fault of your own and with schedule constraints have no way to make it up. Your paycheck of XXX amount that you thought you were going to get is now YYY.

If those were the only items in the TA then I think it would have passed in a landslide. Unfortunately there were some significant gives to get those two items. I think everyone is tired of give backs and will take what we have until we can get an improvement. Currently the contract is not amendable unable 2009. We will see if the company really needs our help and comes back to the table.

Cheers,
MCDU
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 45):
I think everyone is tired of give backs

 checkmark   checkmark 

It's ballsy that they are still trying to squeeze everyone...still is a good operation,but it is amazing how slooow they are during normal contract negotiations but how fast they are when they want givebacks and right now it's the old blood from a turnip addage.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
IPFreely
Posts: 833
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 42):
Quoting Graphic (Reply 35):
Its completely illegal to defer something that isn't listed in the aircraft's MEL.

Did you read any of the posts above yours??? I can list literally hundreds of things that can be defered that aren't listed in the aircrafts MEL!!

In his haste to post something, I believe movingtin got his logic reversed.
 
jetdoctor
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2001 2:16 pm

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:12 am

Me thinks Movingtin's logic is quite fine
I don't want to get this off topic again.
Maybe the MEL's can get deferred to Tech/Ops, and stick with the United T/A here!!

I apologize for my recent post's that were departing the original thread

Regards,

Jetdoctor
Break ground, and head into the wind. Don't break wind and head into the ground.
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: United Pilots Turn Down T/A

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:28 am

Man, I've been trying to stay away from this thread for two days, but all of this drivel is starting to get to me...

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 10):

But in all fairness the pilot union did get ridiculous and unsustainable raises in the Goodwin era.

Wrong. Our raises appeared to be large, but as you in management always seem to neglect to mention, is that we took 25% PAY CUTS for the ESOP! Our wages were (and still are) at pre-1993 levels. If those wages were so unsustainable, then why are WN captains making $250K+ a year and they are still profitable. Oh yeah, they have GOOD management.

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 10):

Glenn saved the airline and deserves every penny he gets in compensation.

Glenn has alienated nearly every line employee, but he couldn't give an less of a damn. He is prettying up the pig for sale and he does not care what the rank and file employee thinks. Been to BET yet? What an absolute farce. $40 million was more than ANY other airline CEO, and more than nearly all of the other CEO's compensation for the Fortune 500 companies (per USA Today).

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 33):
I agree that ALPA has become too focused on revenge to realize that they are destroying the airline.

ALPA is not trying to destroy the airline and we are not focused on revenge. You think the "Fix it Now" campaign is about revenge? No. It is about holding Glenn and the rest of the incompetent management true to the "shared sacrifice, shared rewards" concept. ALPA pilots gave more $$$$ to save this company than ALL OTHER EMPLOYEE GROUPS COMBINED. I personally gave up 48% of my pay, my pension, and so much more to help UA survive. I have personally lost over $500,000 in compensation, millions of dollars in future pension payments, and over $200,000 worth of ESOP stock because of UA's long line of incompetent management. How much did YOU give up? Do I expect to get it all back now. Of course not. Do I expect to be recognized for this sacrifice and share in the rewards. Yes. And a $250 profit sharing check won't cut it. ALPA has helped save this airline, management has done their best to destroy it. Thank God for inertia.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 34):
Is it me, or is Tilton and his team anti employee? You can only snatch out of a persons wallet and time so many times, before all hell breaks loose.

Tilton is doing his best to get the airline ready for sale. He could care less about overall employee morale. He has said so himself (about morale). His only goal, I believe, is to get UA looking good enough to a potential suitor (be it CO, LH, a Chinese carrier, or ?) so that it can be merged/sold/acquired and then he can get an even bigger payday. I may sound bitter. I am not, but this is the direction I see things going. For better or worse, the last 5 years at UA have taught me to have a backup, and luckily I make more $ at the backup now than I do at UA (does that make UA my backup? Scary). It's just sad that the employees of what I believe was and could be one of the worlds greatest airlines, are treated so badly by a management that is only looking to line there pockets with blood money.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

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