cloudyapple
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Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:53 am

Flights have been reduced in anticipation of a switching-over and getting-used-to period but no technical problems reported.

It also marks the start of EFPS at Heathrow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6578967.stm
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airbusA346
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:01 am

How come it has taken them awhile to get using the new tower - AFAIK it seems as though the tower has been built for a while now.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
HUYfan
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:06 am

We flew Tehran-Heathrow today and stopped in Prague, part of the reason was the anticipated delay into LHR, which, in the end, never appeared! Millenium bug tactics from those responsible!

Regards

Mike
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:08 am

It has been more than 1 year since NATS took control of the tower from the builders. It was a in a green condition and systems need to be installed, tested and drilled before the tower can go live.

Running in parallel was controller training on the new equipment and drills for the switch over. It's all brand new. Plus EFPS which changes the way controllers work. It's been a multi-dimensional task.

It's a whole lot more complicated than getting IKEA to fit your newly bought kitchen.
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Lan1981
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:47 am

Operated in & out of LHR today with no delays..did not hear of any other delays, so well done to all involved! I must admit I find the tower design a little uninspiring...operated into OSL today - Oslo's tower looks much more interesting from an aesthetic point of view, and it only receives a fraction of LHR's traffic - I don't want to sound like a moaner, but in these days of cutting-edge/interesting design concepts for airports, I thought LHR's tower would look different!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:06 pm

Does anybody have any idea whats going to happen to the old tower.is it being knocked down? It would make a for a great viewing area but somehow that will not happen me thinks!!
 
6yjjk
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:08 pm

BBC News report from upstairs, showing the view and some of the positions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/new...k/video/89000/bb/89793_16x9_bb.asx

How accurate the commentary is, who knows  Wink
 
philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 3):
We flew Tehran-Heathrow today and stopped in Prague, part of the reason was the anticipated delay into LHR, which, in the end, never appeared! Millenium bug tactics from those responsible!

What a totally ill informed comment. Given the problems NATS have had over the last 12 years or so with Swanwick and the revamp of the Scottish ATC system they are being cautious in the causes of safety and avoiding another embarrassing public relations debacle.
 
theginge
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 8):
Quoting HUYfan (Reply 3):
We flew Tehran-Heathrow today and stopped in Prague, part of the reason was the anticipated delay into LHR, which, in the end, never appeared! Millenium bug tactics from those responsible!

What a totally ill informed comment. Given the problems NATS have had over the last 12 years or so with Swanwick and the revamp of the Scottish ATC system they are being cautious in the causes of safety and avoiding another embarrassing public relations debacle.

I somehow don't think it would have been NATS advising Airlines to tech stop due to anticipated delays into LHR, that decsion I think would be down to the airline. NATS have only been advising airlines that there could be delays, it is then down to the airline to how they interpret that and what they do.
 
philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Theginge (Reply 9):
I somehow don't think it would have been NATS advising Airlines to tech stop due to anticipated delays into LHR, that decsion I think would be down to the airline.

You are probably correct. My comment was aimed particularly at the "Millenium Bugs tactics" nonsense.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 8):
What a totally ill informed comment. Given the problems NATS have had over the last 12 years or so with Swanwick and the revamp of the Scottish ATC system they are being cautious in the causes of safety and avoiding another embarrassing public relations debacle.

But apart from the very delayed start (for about 6 years?), swanwick has suffered no major technical problems. The various stoppages have all been down to either the ageing FDP at west drayton or the datalink between west drayton and swanwick. What else are you referring to?

[Edited 2007-04-22 18:12:57]
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707lvr
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:39 am

I have a question - with slots being so precious at Heathrow, how do they "reduce traffic" for special circumstances like these?
 
philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 11):
But apart from the very delayed start (for about 6 years?), swanwick has suffered no major technical problems. The various stoppages have all been down to either the ageing FDP at west drayton or the datalink between west drayton and swanwick. What else are you referring

Nothing, but the media has a very long memory and often wishes to compare apples and pears and make mountains out of molehills.

BTW, I was working on other projects with the CEO of NATS during the design and build of Swanwick and provided NATS, and the key players in both the Swanwick and the Scottish Centre debacles, with various forums at which the problems were discussed and the parties made their case to the industry as a whole - so I've a pretty good idea of what went on in both instances.
 
philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 12):
how do they "reduce traffic" for special circumstances like these?

They don't. They reduce the flow by introducing flow management and space aircraft off the stacks at longer intervals. At busy times this backs up leading to longer times in the hold, slower speeds on approach to the TMA and, in the worst cases, delayed take off for Heathrow bound journies.
 
Reggaebird
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:54 am

I flew on Virgin 045 from LHR-JFK exactly 12 hours after go-live (14:00 on 21/04/07) and we had no delays at all. Our pushback occurred precisely at 14:00.

Reggaebird
 
LHRBlueSkies
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:58 am

I guess one of the reasons why the design of the new tower is so 'unimaginative' (personally I think it's pretty cool - and the view awe-inspiring!) is that it had to be constructed off-site, and then towed from the airport perimeter to the it's final location, and slowly pieces plugged into place, much like the construction of a crane. Remember, it's location is directly next to a live taxi-way!  banghead 

As for the old tower, spotters (sorry, enthusiasts!) have been begging for it to be turned into a viewing platform - great location but not going to happen due to current security climate. Others have suggested a restaurant, which is a bit of a non-starter, as the actually viewing gallery if you like, would seat maybe 10 people, and getting the food up there a logistical nightmare. The stairs/ladder up is a touch steep!  scratchchin 

I think it will be demolished and make way for something else, part of the Heathrow East project maybe?

PhilB - you seem to be in the know, any ideas, clues, suggestions?!?!
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
socalatc
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:23 am

Im sorry, but that has got to be to ugliest tower I have ever seen. Just my opinion.
 
aussieindc
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 17):
Im sorry, but that has got to be to ugliest tower I have ever seen. Just my opinion.

does it really matter what it looks like if it does its job and keeps everyone safe? It's what's on the inside that counts!!!!  wink 
 
philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting LHRBlueSkies (Reply 16):
PhilB - you seem to be in the know, any ideas, clues, suggestions?!?!

There is a floor below the tower cabin which I used to hire every December for the Welcome Drinks Party after the first sessions of my annual ATC conference.

I used to time the event so that everyone would be in place to see the evening Concorde departure which, on a wet early December evening with all the lights of the airport, the aircraft's afterburners lit and the ligts in the room turned down, made a magnificent sight. To see the CEOs of many of the world's ATC bodies, senior management of equipment providers and the odd government minister jostle for places as close to the window as possible was proof that even hardened professionals can be moved by interesting and beautiful aircraft.

Some of the floors would make good viewing galleries but, until the UK government comes out from under its current paranoia umbrella and, instead of trying to ban everything, seeks workable and secure solutions to the enthusiasts' needs, I dare say the tower will either become another office block or be demolished (if the Listed Buildings people don't get it listed as an icon of late 1940s/early 1950s design.
 
rtfm
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 6):
Does anybody have any idea whats going to happen to the old tower.is it being knocked down?

Hopefully - yes! I am sure that this will incur the wrath of many people who want to preserve some notional image of a 'glamorous' past at LHR but frankly the central area needs all the help it can get to improve facilities, traffic flow, etc and preserving what is basically a brick blob for the sake of it would seem to be trying to preserve a very short period of history for the sake of it.

Just my opinion but LHR has enough constraints on it without the burden of rose-tinted nostaligia......
 
LeonB1985
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:46 am

Concerning the (now) old tower, I was informed by an ATCO (albeit quite some time ago!) that it would stay in working order as a 'back-up' tower.
From the construction site that is better-known as London Heathrow Airport
 
Emirates029
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Thread starter):

It also marks the start of EFPS at Heathrow.

What's EFPS?
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting LHRBlueSkies (Reply 16):
I think it will be demolished and make way for something else, part of the Heathrow East project maybe?

PhilB - you seem to be in the know, any ideas, clues, suggestions?!?!

It will stay as said above as a back up tower. There is a lot going on inside apart from the cab. Various equipment, servers, a tower simulator in the basement, lots of offices, conference rooms...

NATS owns the tower. BAA doesn't. BAA can rebuild T2 a dozen times and the old tower will still be there. No chance it is going to be knocked down.

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 22):
What's EFPS?

Electronic Flight Progress Strips. No more paper madness in the cab.
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philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:22 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 23):
NATS owns the tower. BAA doesn't.

Can you point to something to substantiate that? If I recall correctly BAA owns all the buildings within the airport central area and they have also commissioned and own the new tower.. NATS are tenants having won the contract to supply tower services at LHR on a contract basis, exactly as they have had to do at other airports where they provide ATC.
 
cornish
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 24):
Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 23):
NATS owns the tower. BAA doesn't.

Can you point to something to substantiate that? If I recall correctly BAA owns all the buildings within the airport central area and they have also commissioned and own the new tower.. NATS are tenants having won the contract to supply tower services at LHR on a contract basis, exactly as they have had to do at other airports where they provide ATC.

I agree with Phil. My understanding is that BAA owns the physical building that is the tower - NATS provide the equipment inside it as part of their contract to supply the services.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:06 pm

Furthermore, when I hired the room in the old tower for my Welcome events I had to negotiate with and pay the BAA and use their caterers.

Further proof, re the new tower, comes from this website: http://www.rsh-p.com/render.aspx?siteID=1&navIDs=1,4,23,1303

Note the name of the client.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 3):
Millenium bug tactics from those responsible!

...and how much do you really know about the "millenium bug tactics"? A lot of poeple enjoy ridiculing the hype over Y2K, how it never really happened, etc....the reality is that there was a genuine fault in the way computers stored dates, which could have caused massive disruption of systems, etc.

A lot of companies and governments spent millions, programmers slogged day and night to to fix the problem and THAT's why nothing major happened in the end.....giving ample opportunity for armchair critics to sit back and snigger "Hah, see...nothing happened....."

Your comment about LHR is somewhat on the same lines.... Big grin
 
brilondon
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 27):
Quoting HUYfan (Reply 3):
Millenium bug tactics from those responsible!

...and how much do you really know about the "millenium bug tactics"? A lot of poeple enjoy ridiculing the hype over Y2K, how it never really happened, etc....the reality is that there was a genuine fault in the way computers stored dates, which could have caused massive disruption of systems, etc.

A lot of companies and governments spent millions, programmers slogged day and night to to fix the problem and THAT's why nothing major happened in the end.....giving ample opportunity for armchair critics to sit back and snigger "Hah, see...nothing happened....."

Your comment about LHR is somewhat on the same lines....

I agree completely with Gr8Circle. If something did go wrong with the new tower, contingencies were in place to deal with it. It was great to hear that nothing did go wrong with the opening of the new tower and operations went on as planned. What you obviously did not know about the Y2K problem is that companies spent millions of dollars fixing their systems so nothing would go wrong on Y2K.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
BA0284
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:02 am

I was on the BA426 on Saturday which takes off at 06:35, one of (dont think THE) first ones to go from the new tower, but it seemed fine, no problem at all. There was an announcement onboard about the use of the new control tower, and maybe some problems we'll experience, but we didn't have any. I also heard on ATIS that there was an announcement on there as well.

Great info and pictures from http://www.heathrowpictures.com and click on 'New VCR' on the menu on the left. It's a great website, even though on the front it does say "less than 24 hours to go!" Looks brill!

BA0284  Smile
 
socalatc
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Aussieindc (Reply 18):
does it really matter what it looks like if it does its job and keeps everyone safe? It's what's on the inside that counts!!!!

There is something about a beautiful tower at your airport. The tower is something everybody sees, and stands out. Believe ME I know the importance of the inside of a tower, however I also see the beauty on the outside. Its like a status symbol.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 30):

There is something about a beautiful tower at your airport. The tower is something everybody sees, and stands out. Believe ME I know the importance of the inside of a tower, however I also see the beauty on the outside. Its like a status symbol.

Very well put, and I can back up everything you just said.
 
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zeke
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Thread starter):
Flights have been reduced in anticipation of a switching-over and getting-used-to period but no technical problems reported.

Cloudyapple,

All reports is that it is working as advertised, some minor issues with the greens and stop bars, and PDC ACARS issues (maybe aircraft equipment end with older software versions), apart from that the lift apparently looks "cool" running up and down the outside.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:12 pm

Now Cloudyapple, instead of posting yet another press release, how about either proof of your statement:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 23):
NATS owns the tower. BAA doesn't. BAA can rebuild T2 a dozen times and the old tower will still be there. No chance it is going to be knocked down

as I previously requested or a retraction.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 24):
Can you point to something to substantiate that? If I recall correctly BAA owns all the buildings within the airport central area and they have also commissioned and own the new tower.. NATS are tenants having won the contract to supply tower services at LHR on a contract basis, exactly as they have had to do at other airports where they provide ATC.

I was referring to the old tower. It was a legacy from the privatization frenzy of the 80s and 90s. It was built for the RAF initially in 1955. While all the terminals and aprons were handed over to BAA in 1987, the tower was retained by CAA/NATS. It was then assigned to NATS when it was privatised in 2001.

The new tower has been commissioned and is owned by BAA. NATS installed all the systems in the new tower and runs the show there. I'm not sure what would happen if BAA does not renew our contract. BAA may have first refusal to buy the equipment.

I'm not sure how you expect me to proof something that I regard as common knowledge. Maybe you can spare a few minutes to read the 2 companies' websites.

Quoting Philb (Reply 26):
Furthermore, when I hired the room in the old tower for my Welcome events I had to negotiate with and pay the BAA and use their caterers.

Absolutely no way. It's a high security NATS compound. Even with a staff pass you need to be booked in by someone resident in the tower.
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philb
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
Quoting Philb (Reply 26):
Furthermore, when I hired the room in the old tower for my Welcome events I had to negotiate with and pay the BAA and use their caterers.

Absolutely no way. It's a high security NATS compound. Even with a staff pass you need to be booked in by someone resident in the tower.

What does that mean? Are you calling me a liar? I used the tower for welcome parties in 1994/5/6 and 1997. I paid the BAA for the privilege and paid their caterers. Amongst those who attended one or more of the parties, in the control tower at a level just below the cabin, normally used for meetings and presentations, with views over both runways and accessible by the lift from the ground floor were:

D Kaden CEO DFS Germany, P Materna CEO ATCA Czech Republic, D Wightman Assistant Deputy Minister Transport Canada, Christopher Chataway Chairman CAA, Frank Kruesi, Asst Sec Transport Policy US Dept Transportation, J Coetzee MD ATNS South Africa, T Windmuller, Air Transport Action Group IATA, Derek McLauchlan CEO NATS, L Lane Speck, Director, Air Traffic Rules and Procedure FAA, Bert Ruitenberg VP IFATCA, Emmanuel Koumentakis, Director, Euroncontrol Route Charges.

I could list nearly 250 more CEO's, senior managers, politicians and other personalities from over 100 countries who, in those 4 years joined me up the tower, in that room for a welcome party.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
was referring to the old tower. It was a legacy from the privatization frenzy of the 80s and 90s. It was built for the RAF initially in 1955. While all the terminals and aprons were handed over to BAA in 1987, the tower was retained by CAA/NATS. It was then assigned to NATS when it was privatised in 2001.

I too am talking of the old tower. I don't know what your link to NATS is but you need to do your homework and stop posting rubbish..

The brick and steel built tower was completed in 1955 to a design by Frederick Gibberd CBE with the Ministry of Civil Aviation as client. The tower REPLACED the original RAF tower.

Under the 1966 Act the airport as a whole was handed to the British Airports Authority - which at one time had a sub division, London Heathrow Airport Ltd. BAA plc has run the airport since the 1986 privatisation and owns the land and all buildings therein apart from the Heathrow South Cargo Centre, some warehouses sold off in 2005, BA's buildings, and part shares of the the bmi and Virgin Hangars.

NATS has to bid for contracts to run the ATC service at Heathrow which include the bid winner equipping the tower to the latest standards. The building remains BAA property. I suggest you read http://www.nats.co.uk/text/78/airport_services.html with particular reference to para #2.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
I'm not sure what would happen if BAA does not renew our contract. BAA may have first refusal to buy the equipment.

In the unlikely event of NATS losing the Heathrow, or any other BAA contract, there is a clause which allows for either sale or rental of the NATS owned equipment to the new contractor with a sub clause in the case of rental to allow the new contractor to replace the equipment with due notice and the minimum disruption to ATC services.

I can find no reference anywhere to NATS having bought the old tower from BAA - presumably you are confused by the fact that BAA have a 4% shareholding in NATS and the total operation of the tower and its building management (but NOT the legal title) was handed to NATS in 2001. If you can provide it - fine, I'll apologise but don't start telling me what I have and haven't done in the past - particularly as I worked very closely with BAA, CAA and NATS to provide world standard ATC conferences for the most senior figures in the business, worked with DFS at their Langen ifacility n Germany providing conferences on ATC training and had access to FAA, Czech and Eurocontrol operational facilities on a regular basis until I retired.
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Sun May 06, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
What does that mean? Are you calling me a liar?

I did not accuse anyone of anything. Last I know I am being accused of posting rubbish. Please refrain from putting words in others' mouths. Please also refrain from turning this thread into a bitching session.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
I paid the BAA for the privilege and paid their caterers.

Let me reiterate once more - and I do not hesitate to do so - NATS (NSL) owns the old CTB complex. I do not want to speculate why you had to deal with BAA.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
Amongst those who attended one or more of the parties, in the control tower at a level just below the cabin, normally used for meetings and presentations, with views over both runways and accessible by the lift from the ground floor were:

I know exactly where the conference room is. I have been there multiple times running my own shows - in the past year, not 10+ years ago. I'm well up-to-date. You need not list all your guests here, nor would I list any of mine. It's not a competition for credibility, not saying listing your guests gives you any.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
in that room for a welcome party

I used the room for purposes far more industry defining than welcoming parties.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
I don't know what your link to NATS

You don't need to. Nor would I disclose it here.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
do your homework and stop posting rubbish..

I posted no rubbish.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
The brick and steel built tower was completed in 1955 to a design by Frederick Gibberd CBE with the Ministry of Civil Aviation as client. The tower REPLACED the original RAF tower.

I will agree with you on this one. The original tower was the RAF tower. The Gibberd tower replaced that.

Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
Under the 1966 Act the airport as a whole was handed to the British Airports Authority - which at one time had a sub division, London Heathrow Airport Ltd. BAA plc has run the airport since the 1986 privatisation and owns the land and all buildings therein apart from the Heathrow South Cargo Centre, some warehouses sold off in 2005, BA's buildings, and part shares of the the bmi and Virgin Hangars.

Everything except the tower complex which NSL now owns (land and building).


The old tower will be kept for the time as a live backup. It will gradually be vacated (NSL, tower sim, AIS, etc) and at the right price removed from NSL's portfolio to coincide with the Heathrow East development.

[Edited 2007-05-06 16:48:52]
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philb
Posts: 2645
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RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon May 07, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
did not accuse anyone of anything.



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
Quoting Philb (Reply 26):
Furthermore, when I hired the room in the old tower for my Welcome events I had to negotiate with and pay the BAA and use their caterers.



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
Absolutely no way. It's a high security NATS compound. Even with a staff pass you need to be booked in by someone resident in the tower.

I'm not putting words into anyone's mouth I quoted your riposte to my factual statement. Your riposte makes me out to be a liar. What part of your words "no way" don't you understand?

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
Please also refrain from turning this thread into a bitching session.

I wasn't bitching - you were making out I was fabricating evidence.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
You need not list all your guests here, nor would I list any of mine. It's not a competition for credibility, not saying listing your guests gives you any.

You turned it into one by your statement:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
Absolutely no way. It's a high security NATS compound. Even with a staff pass you need to be booked in by someone resident in the tower.



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
I used the room for purposes far more industry defining than welcoming parties.

How petty. My welcome parties were for Air Traffic Control conferences dealing with privatisation, FANS, ATC equipment specification and purchase and training of ATC trainers held at the Radisson Edwardian and were sponsored by - in different years - NATS (now if they owned the tower, how come I had to pay the BAA?), SERCO, IATA's ATAG, Siemens-Plessey and by DG VII of the EU.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
Quoting Philb (Reply 38):
I don't know what your link to NATS

You don't need to. Nor would I disclose it here.

Doesn't do your credibility any favours.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
I posted no rubbish.

Well the following answer was utter rubbish:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 37):
Absolutely no way. It's a high security NATS compound. Even with a staff pass you need to be booked in by someone resident in the tower.

How does the following:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 39):
The old tower will be kept for the time as a live backup. It will gradually be vacated (NSL, tower sim, AIS, etc) and at the right price removed from NSL's portfolio to coincide with the Heathrow East development.

equate with this:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 23):
NATS owns the tower. BAA doesn't. BAA can rebuild T2 a dozen times and the old tower will still be there. No chance it is going to be knocked down.

You are very definite about NATS owning the tower. Please quote your sources. The ownership is not mentioned on any of the BAA or NATS/CAA websites, the new tower is clearly owned by the airport, NATS only operate at LHR under contract so, unlike their en route centre buildings which they do own for obvious reasons, why would they make an exception for the tower at just one of the many airports at which they have the ATC contract? I'm sure they are keeping the old tower at LHR until the new one has had time to overcome any glitches, that will be part of the contract with BAA. As for NATS removing it from their portfolio, who is going to buy it? BAA? Why would they buy back a piece of unwanted real estate at a price, given the increase in property and land values, way over what they would have been given for it if your assertion were true.

If NATS let it go cheaply to get rid the NATS share holders will have plenty to say - at least the airlines involved. If BAA have to buy it back at a price well in excess of what they got for it there will be some very sore shareholders in Spain and elsewhere - but, of course you have to show NATS own it first.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Heathrow's New Tower Goes Live

Mon May 07, 2007 5:21 am

Since a few of you few want to argue over something not exactly related to the discussion at hand, the thread is being locked.

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