teahan
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Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:09 am

There is an article in last week’s Air & Cosmos about an A320 delivered to China that seems to have ‘disappeared’. No record of it being transferred to a Chinese carrier and no maintenance records have been returned to Airbus. = assumption that it was dismantled - examined so that pieces can be reverse engineered for China’s own civil aircraft projects.

Has this been reported anywhere else? Anyone know what frame is involved?
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tommybp251b
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:15 am

Haha, thats very funny. Not it's not!!!!

I never understood why Airbus did this China deal. In ten years we wont fly Airbus, we will fly Xian-Ching and so on which looks the same like an Airbus.

Sorry, but I don't like this exaggerated copying strategy of China.

[Edited 2007-04-22 22:16:17]
Tom from Cologne
 
EI321
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:33 am

Isnt there various ways of tracking it, like the transponder? This is very odd.

On a lighter note, at least Airbus can be flattered that they chose to reverse engineer an A320 and not a 737.  Wink
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:39 am

There is mention of this airframe in the latest Aviation Week & Space Technology. The story supposedly comes from the French arm of Airbus.
 
LH526
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Isnt there various ways of tracking it, like the transponder? This is very odd.

Chinese people might be stupid in copyright and patent issues, however they will be so intelligent to cut off all electricity and radioing devices before dismantling the ship

Mario
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DALCE
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:48 am

which a/c production number is involved?
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
On a lighter note, at least Airbus can be flattered that they chose to reverse engineer an A320 and not a 737.  wink 

As they will be building A320, it makes sense to see what one looks like "under the skin" so they can be more efficient in assembling.  Wink
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:00 am

Honestly, I'm sure I've said this before on a similar topic about china's ambition to conceive of a regional jet; if they did build it, it would, and should expect no sales other than inside its own market. International customers would not go for it unless it was heavily discounted or something along those lines.

The main reason for this is as follows. Embraer 170-190, Bombardier Canadair C-series, Airbus A318 A119, The new Sukhoi RJ100 or whatever it is, and updates on the 737 series coming up next decade.

I'm not sure about the A320 gone missing as part of a reverse engineering ploy, China, I would have thought, would be too consciencious of doing something like that; they like to present themselves as a modern up to date, sophisticate country, hence why the population census and mortality rates and economic values and other figures are tweaked exagerated, so they'll look like a model of your typical MEDC on paper.

I can't say I take this one seriously, let alone a chinese effort at a regional jet; there's just too much competition.
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CJAContinental
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
As they will be building A320, it makes sense to see what one looks like "under the skin" so they can be more efficient in assembling.

 checkmark 
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roseflyer
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:05 am

I read an article about Airbus possibly opening a production line in China for the A320 similar to how McDonnell Douglas did about 10-15 years ago. Chinese companies have the capabilities of manufacturing commercial jetliners, but there isn't the experience to develop new designs. It could come with time. Embraer did what was thought of as impossible when they produced a wildly successful jet in a developing country. China could do it, but it would take some work. Of course even if they do build their own jetliners, they will incorporate western technology since there are so many subsystems where specialized companies in the United States or Europe exclusively manufacture the products.
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Shenzhen
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:09 am

Probably more like covering up a hull loss then reverse engineering. Why would they need to reverse engineer anything?, just buy 100 frames and Airbus will provide the engineering, specifications and production planning.

Actually, might have been used in some type of military application..

Cheers
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 7):
I'm not sure about the A320 gone missing as part of a reverse engineering ploy, China, I would have thought, would be too consciencious of doing something like that

I don't have any solid facts, but China's first entry into the commercial aviation market is the ARJ21, and it looks remarkably similar to an airplane once manufactured here in the US (read: MD), and at one-point derivatives of this aircraft (read: MD-80) were to be, and/or were, produced in Mainland China...makes you wonder....food for thought, it would be interesting to find further facts on both the A320 supposedly reverse-engineered (which wouldn't surprise me) and this ARJ21....

See following links for pictures....

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/arj21/arj211.html

http://english.people.com.cn/200703/31/eng20070331_362757.html
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EI321
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
On a lighter note, at least Airbus can be flattered that they chose to reverse engineer an A320 and not a 737.

As they will be building A320, it makes sense to see what one looks like "under the skin" so they can be more efficient in assembling.

All they have to do is ask, its not like airbus wont give them a copy of the assembly instructions!

What next, reverse engineering an A380?  Smile
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Aa54heavy (Reply 11):

Yeah, I agree that thats a good source to back up your point, I think it does remsemble an MD-80 a lot, especially the edges of the flight deck windows. Though again, if china does come up with something along the lines of an A320, or an E-190, I don't think it'll resemble it that much.
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Lumberton
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:22 am

If EADS is concerned over this, then we'll know when they change their mind of the A320 production facility. If they proceed, then they likely don't consider this a threat.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
LimaNiner
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 7):
China, I would have thought, would be too consciencious of doing something like that; they like to present themselves as a modern up to date, sophisticate country

Huh? China has zero respect for intellectual property rights. They rip off Western technology without shame. In the past, it's "only" been things like software and entertainment content (music, DVDs, etc.), but they're getting more ambitious and starting to copy sophisticated technology like Internet routers and switches. Huawei has been cloning Cisco routers and switches for years now, and only stopped selling them in the U.S. because Cisco sued them and managed to slap an injunction on them.

As anecdotal evidence, check out this link: in the first 2 weeks of selling Windows Vista in China, Microsoft managed to sell only 244 copies, in a country with over 1 billion people. Vista is bad, but it's not that bad...

http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/...ne_windows_vista_sold_in_china.php
 
ikramerica
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 7):
I'm not sure about the A320 gone missing as part of a reverse engineering ploy, China, I would have thought, would be too consciencious of doing something like that

ROFL.

They sell copycat electronics, made in the same factories, under their own name without permission.

They sell copycat versions of Korean cars, without permission.

They actively pirate Movies while restricting imports legal products to "preserve Chinese culture."

They poison food stuffs exported so it reads to have more protein in it, without retribution, refusing to even allow visas to inspectors and claiming that the products were not intended to be used as food... (it happened to Korea before it happened to the USA, btw).

What makes you think they won't pull blatant, obvious scams with planes?

Not to say it's true or isn't true, just the "benefit of the doubt" is something that China doesn't deserve when it comes to manufacturing/production.
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ultrapig
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:41 am

The Soviet Union interned a B-29 during WWII and did the same thing-

More specifically-To what extent to Boeing or Airbus engineeers examine competitive models to see how certain hydralics, wings, wing boxes are constructed so they can perhaps not reverse engineer but improve their product.


Any design engineeers out there?
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 15):
Huh? China has zero respect for intellectual property rights.

True dat.....getting way beyond the stuff like piracy of dvds, etc., companies within China have gotten now into trouble for copying autombolies (from Honda, GM, etc.) The pic below shows the similarity between the QQ, "created" by a Chinese company, and its near mirror image, the GM spark (which was created first)

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m30/bimmerbimmer99/CarImage.jpg

There is no doubt that they have already, and will continue, to have the ability to copy even bigger things...airplanes, which is why the reference to automobiles is relevant to this discussion. I work for a major aerospace company that outsources to China and I keep asking around to find out what their policies are towards "not giving them enough information so that they can create it themselves"....but I guess its part of the whole "global village" thing....

I reference the article that I got that picture from....a long synopsis on the IP issues created by Chinese policys. It obviously references cars (its a 2006 article), but it relates to aviation because there could easily be an article about them copying airplanes in a few years...

http://autoweb.net/web2006/pdf/ip%20theft.pdf
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da man
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:50 am

There is precedent to this sort of thing by China.
The exact same thing happened to the 707...


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AA54Heavy
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Da man (Reply 19):
There is precedent to this sort of thing by China.
The exact same thing happened to the 707...

WOW! Does anybody know anything further about their progra to copy the 707s and why the whole thing never really "took off"?
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pictues
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:56 am

i've also heard that at least a couple B747's have disappeared the same way, no record, nothing just disappeared in China.
 
TheCheese
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:02 am

Its entirely possible that the aircraft disappeared to become parts for duplication as counterfeit spares, as well. This is a very lucrative market, and it's much easier to copy a part when it's not attached to anything else.
 
mli717fan
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:03 am

While I'm not sure if this is a legal copy, but there is always the Chinese built Landwind SUV, it's based off of the 1990's Isuzu Rodeo... except, I guess they cheapened the structure. Anywho, don't get into an accident in one of these bad boys.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangling_Motors_Landwind


Crash tests:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Ts94rjr4M
 
md90fan
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 18):
True dat.....getting way beyond the stuff like piracy of dvds, etc., companies within China have gotten now into trouble for copying autombolies (from Honda, GM, etc.) The pic below shows the similarity between the QQ, "created" by a Chinese company, and its near mirror image, the GM spark (which was created first)

Here's a better example:

http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
EI321
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 17):
The Soviet Union interned a B-29 during WWII and did the same thing-

When Concorde & TU144 were being designed, Espionage was everywhere. It was found that spies had actually been trespassing on the runways after the prototype Concorde had landed, taking samples of the rubber tyre compound that the aircraft had deposited on the runway. So the crafty British engineers went out and deposited a dummy compound onto the runway for the Soviets to find.
 
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 25):
So the crafty British engineers went out and deposited a dummy compound onto the runway for the Soviets to find.

Didn't they also plant quite a bit in the way of erroneous/misleading engineering documents? I have a vague recollection of a scheme involving a hollowed-out toothpaste tube.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
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breiz
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Teahan (Thread starter):
There is an article in last week's Air & Cosmos about an A320 delivered to China that seems to have 'disappeared'. No record of it being transferred to a Chinese carrier and no maintenance records have been returned to Airbus.
Was this particular issue of Air et Cosmos dated April 1st?
Any indication about which A320 it may be or when it was supposed to have been delivered, or to which airline?

On the other hand, if China is about to start an assembly line for the A320, do they need to dis-assemble one to know its secrets?

[Edited 2007-04-23 00:32:44]
 
teahan
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting Breiz (Reply 28):
Was this particular issue of Air et Cosmos dated April 1st?

Ha! But no. Either dated the 7th or the 14th of April (the issue with the Boeing 787/A350 feature) in the confidential news section.

Edited to add: Actually it might have been the 16th of March issue.

[Edited 2007-04-23 00:40:51]
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trintocan
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:33 am

An interesting discussion. The Shanghai Y-10 was indeed reversed from the 707 back in the late 1970s and first flew in 1980. Only 2 were built and did test flights until 1982. The programme was abandoned after China and McDonnell Douglas agreed for the MD80s to be built in China (as the SAIC MD80). The Y-10 would have been used for domestic routes in the first instance, for which the MD80 was a suitable alternative.

TrinToCan.
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teahan
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:42 am

Thanks to Runway23 for finding the link:

Quote:
L’envers du décor : Air et Cosmos du 16 mars 2007

« Alors que le constructeur chinois Avic 1 vient de déclarer qu’il pouvait mettre sur le marché un avion de ligne moderne dès les années 2010-2020, Airbus a aussitôt fait la relation avec l’étrange disparition d’un A320 en Chine. Il s’agit d’un appareil effectivement livré à Pékin, mais qui n’est jamais apparu dans la flotte d’aucune compagnie et dont il n’existe aucune trace de suivi technique, comme cela se pratique pour tous les avions. L’hypothèse la plus probable serait que cet A320 fantôme se trouve dans une discrète usine du pays pour y être démonté et étudié pièce par pièce. »
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:53 am

I have to say, I didn't know about the 707 copy, or all the others.

Well, you've changed my mind, I guess China is very much capable of design stealing.

However, as stitch has said before, A320 production in china is probably the most logical reason why this incident has happened.
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j.mo
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 1):
I never understood why Airbus did this China deal. In ten years we wont fly Airbus, we will fly Xian-Ching and so on which looks the same like an Airbus.

And then we will be able to buy them at Wal-Mart.  Wink

JM
 
Rbgso
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:37 am

If this is true, and the Chinese bring this copy to the world market, I wonder if the European and US aviation authorities would certify it.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:40 am

It's so nice to know that all the Chinese students here at Purdue are learning to be good little reverse-engineering copycats...  Yeah sure Ugh.

We can only hope that since the most efficient engine technology is still in US and European hands, they'll be unable to export inefficient jets and try to harm our aerospace industry. Well, of course, they do have the engines that were slung onto that A320.  Yeah sure

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ikramerica
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting Breiz (Reply 28):
On the other hand, if China is about to start an assembly line for the A320, do they need to dis-assemble one to know its secrets?

They are looking to use their own parts, and the idea that they may be looking to build cheep spares without having to engineer them is a strong one. There are PLENTY of fringe air markets in the world where they would buy second hand A320s and look for cheaper parts to maintain them. Not to mention internal spare part sales in China for the 300 A320s they are going to take delivery of.

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 34):
If this is true, and the Chinese bring this copy to the world market, I wonder if the European and US aviation authorities would certify it.

I highly doubt it would look exactly like an A320. But they could definitely steal a lot of the technology in the A320, add it to the other technology France is selling them, and come up with a pretty solid 200 seat medium range aircraft similar to the 767-200 or 757/A321.

Which is what they claim to be looking to do in the future.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
na
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting Pictues (Reply 21):
i've also heard that at least a couple B747's have disappeared the same way, no record, nothing just disappeared in China.

Not true. Heard where?
I think there is an old ex-BA 747 which is in China and used by a university to teach students. But thats an old machine, nothing to be "copied". Ottherwise no 747 ever "disappeared" in China.


Btw, any idea which A320 is involved in this rumour in the original post? A new frame, an older one?
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 35):
It's so nice to know that all the Chinese students here at Purdue are learning to be good little reverse-engineering copycats... Ugh.

Well, in a show of respect towards many of these said Chinese students (as both myself and my father have worked with and/or taught with many of them in the sciences at a major university), their determination, intelligence and creativity warrants them much more than simply being copycats. Yes, I agree that with China having lax laws, many go home and support such efforts, but we should be more worried about (1) them going home and inventing better technology than we can come up with (which is inevitable) and (2) us as a country losing their expertise in supporting our own technology efforts (since foreign students represent such a large portion of enrollment in our technology based grad schools). Its sad that our country isn't able to promote enough comparable experience from within (an education debate all on its on), because we have the potential, but foreigners are meeting that potential for us.

Sorry, the quote above left me with a bad taste in my mouth and wanted to vent...
Roger that, turning to our "other" left
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 38):
Well, in a show of respect towards many of these said Chinese students (as both myself and my father have worked with and/or taught with many of them in the sciences at a major university), their determination, intelligence and creativity warrants them much more than simply being copycats. Yes, I agree that with China having lax laws, many go home and support such efforts, but we should be more worried about (1) them going home and inventing better technology than we can come up with (which is inevitable) and (2) us as a country losing their expertise in supporting our own technology efforts (since foreign students represent such a large portion of enrollment in our technology based grad schools). Its sad that our country isn't able to promote enough comparable experience from within (an education debate all on its on), because we have the potential, but foreigners are meeting that potential for us.

Sorry, the quote above left me with a bad taste in my mouth and wanted to vent...

No I'll agree with that. There's going to be a shortfall of Engineers in this country in the coming decades. And the comment wasn't just a slam at Chinese students...but the fact is if these rumors are true, we're seeing how they're going to be employed, as essentially copycats. I would much like to see a greater emphasis on our lacking professions in this country; teaching, engineering, etc. Seems all kids want to be today is the next "American Idol".

I'm 21 years old and I just used the phrase "Seems all kids want...today". That should be enough to indicate the problem.

So we have a society with lax copyright laws, and another facing a shortfall in talent. I count two debates.

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ikramerica
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 38):
(1) them going home and inventing better technology than we can come up with (which is inevitable)

Why?

First, where is the evidence of this? All I see from Chinese brands that aren't copies of non-chinese products is LOWER quality product, not innovation.

And if much of the world is going to turn a blind eye to copies and buy chinese knockoffs, there is zero incentive for China to make anything BETTER than they can copy. R&D is expensive. Just because you have hard working, smart engineers in your pool doesn't mean you are going to innovate. And if there's no money in innovation, why bother?

Maybe China will take over top research in certain industries like Korea and Japan did, but currently, I don't see why they should bother to spend the money to do it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 7):
International customers would not go for it unless it was heavily discounted or something along those lines.

. . . and that safety and support services were demonstrated over thousands of hours. Really, what non-chinese airline is going to trust its passengers on a plane from China in the near future? I don't think the chinese are particularly known for their safety record (think coal mine disasters), their environmental policy (think the entire country polluted), concern for consumers (think of the recent petfood scandal), or respect for intellectual property rights (think Windows, GM and just about everything else the country copies). With their record in other areas, we don't have much assurance China can build something to the rigorous safety standards of the US or Europe. And without that assurance, nobody is going to buy a chinese commercial jet. Things could change, but it will take decades of consistent work in lots of areas. I dont see that work at presence.

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 10):
Actually, might have been used in some type of military application

This I think is the bigger threat.
 
Poitin
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting Rbgso (Reply 34):
If this is true, and the Chinese bring this copy to the world market, I wonder if the European and US aviation authorities would certify it.

I guess we will see about that with the ARJ-21 AKA DC-9

Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Rbgso
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:48 am

I wonder if they are copying the engines as well or purchasing them.
 
trex8
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:20 am

The Chinese have had a licence from RR for the Spey since what the late 70s and they still haven't been able to manufacture any for their JH7 fighter bomber and had to buy a bunch of ex RAF stockpiled engines. With modern aerospace products, you can dismantle it as much as you want but you can't make a "copy", even when you got the blueprints!! You need the machine tools and the metallurgy expertise which does not come from simply knowing the dimensions of the individual parts and knowing the typ eof material they are fabricated from.
 
Ratherbflyin
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:56 am

In the April 16th issue of AWST, they also (briefly) mention the missing A320 aircraft. No dates or other information is supplied, just that it "vanished after the delivery flight," and "there is no operational record of it to this day." They do however mention that the Chinese state council recently made a statement claiming that China would "have a 'large aircraft' flying soon, possibly in the next three years."

Whether or not the aircraft in question will be a copy of an existing Boeing or Airbus aircraft is unknown, especially since it seems to have been developed under an impressive curtain of secrecy. Personally I would love to see Boeing and Airbus pick up another competitor or two. It would make the aircraft design and construction industry interesting again. It will be nice to see a fresh face in the industry, but I will only be truly impressed if it is a brand new design and not a copy of an existing one.
 
B777ER
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting Aa54heavy (Reply 11):
I don't have any solid facts, but China's first entry into the commercial aviation market is the ARJ21, and it looks remarkably similar to an airplane once manufactured here in the US

Looks like a DC9 and part Fokker. What a joke the country of China is.....

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 24):

Hence the reason we (the US of A) is still builidng the F/A-22 and the JSF. China's pilots don't stand a chance against them. That and we have the B2....good luck China.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:11 am

Okay, this has just got me very concerned about something.

Think of all of the heavy maintenance being outsourced to China. Yes we know
some very good companies are behind it. I am specifically talking about C and D checks here.

So, what has me worried? If they're going to start reverse engineering parts,
some of them may just start making their way into western owned jetliners being
sent there for heavy checks. YES I do realise there would be measures in place
from companies such as Airbus and Boeing or Lufthansa Technik, but this is also a
marketplace that is hopeless corrupt. There is a huge amount of corruption getting in
the way of almost absolutely everything in that country, and dealing with them myself
in the past, products that were suppose to be up to scratch came out of shipping containers
and had to be completely replaced, despite assurances, quality control programs etc etc etc.
There is just not enough respect for these sorts of things in that culture, and even the best companies
struggle with it.

So what bothers me, is am I going to get on say, a United 777, or a KLM A330 and suffer an engine failure on an ETOPS flight because of counterfit parts being used that weren't up to quality standards?

Anybody wish to comment? This could be very serious and I'd like to know what you all think.
 
gigneil
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting B777ER (Reply 46):
What a joke the country of China is.....

People like you are exactly why they're going to pass us up.

Never underestimate the 1.7 billion pound gorilla.

NS
 
JRDC930
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 1):
Sorry, but I don't like this exaggerated copying strategy of China

No offense intedded to the industrious chinese people, but china(government of)has a habit of copying equipment it needs to save costs from having to do their own research or from having to pay for some one elses product. My examples: the Ak-47, and various MiG variants many unlicenced, if this story is true it would not surprise me.  Embarrassment
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
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autothrust
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RE: Disappeared Chinese A320 - Dismantled, Reverse Eng

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 35):
We can only hope that since the most efficient engine technology is still in US and European hands, they'll be unable to export inefficient jets and try to harm our aerospace industry.

 worried  Indeed, thats really something to worry, besides the Chinese even copy our tools and high-tech machines almost 1:1. IMO the WTO should sue China for this issue.

At least the A320 is a 80' technology and since then a lot of improvements have been made by Boeing and Airbus. However the gap is always getting smaller.  pessimist 

Someone knows which MSN the Aircraft was?
 tombstone  RIP nice new A320
“Faliure is not an option.”