LAXintl
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DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:25 am

Delta Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

04/23/2007

Delta management has some concern about potential operational challenges at New York Kennedy this summer, but the carrier is laying the groundwork to ease passenger disruptions resulting from weather events at the airport.

Delta is working with FAA and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey on different arrival and departure fixes and different taxi configurations, Whitehurst explained, noting, "That said, I'm very concerned about this summer, given others are growing at JFK as well." He explained that he worries about the international window, highlighting that Delta has "done a lot of splitting there, and we're hopeful other carriers will follow our lead and do what they can to make sure we do what's best for the customer."
To combat operational issues at JFK, Whitehurst said Delta proactively split its international bank at the airport, "which was a tough thing for us to do," he said, adding, "but we're doing our part to try to make the airport work." The split entails "long Europe leaving early," and flights to European destinations that are shorter leaving later, which creates a four-hour window instead of a two-hour gap between those banks.

To prepare for potential adverse conditions at JFK this summer Whitehurst said instead of having gate holdouts, Delta could transport passengers off planes with people trains and people movers. Delta is also re-outfitting a set of rooms to make sure amenity kits, cots "and other things" are available in the event of a really disastrous thunderstorm.


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http://www.aviationweek.com/publicat...l/2007/04/23/09.xml&headline=Delta Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK
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Evan767
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:50 am

NIce, shorter European flights leaving later. That will mean extra sleep time. I guess the times will be something like 430PM for the first bank and 830PM for the second?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
ikramerica
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:47 am

good for DL! Some of those things are things the FAA should require of airlines, but it's great to see DL taking the initiative on this. Proactive vs. reactive. Well, it is reactive to all the other years, but at least they have a real plan in place as opposed to some other carriers...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:55 am

Good on Delta for pre-planning.

JFK is a b*tch lately, no matter how you slice it or dice it, or what airline you fly on.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
That said, I'm very concerned about this summer, given others are growing at JFK as well."

Besides Delta's expansion, what major growth will there be this summer?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:33 pm

Good on Delta for pre-planning. JFK is a b*tch lately, no matter how you slice it or dice it, or what airline you fly on.

Indeed. Also, DL's already been getting practice at JFK this spring. Earlier this month I was caught in a weather delay at JFK that DL seemed to handle pretty well. My LH flight from FRA arrived on time to almost the minute, but my DL Connection flight to DCA and most of the other DL Connection flights were delayed two hours due to earlier-in-the-day weather issues that messed up their operations. The only complaint I had was that DL's gate personnel didn't keep us informed and they kept changing the flight later and later without announcements. Presumably that can easily be changed.

Otherwise, there was no problem; T2 was quite spacious and comfortable, and I had plenty of stuff along to read. After the last Euro bank left, the delayed DL Connection pax simply spread out from 23 and 25 to the neighboring gate areas as needed. Boarding announcements were audible throughout the end of the concourse and in the adjacent gates. Starbucks, restrooms, and drinking fountains were conveniently nearby. Once we did board, the Comair pilot apologized for the delay and explained the cause. Our baggage came promptly at DCA after we landed.

We didn't have an overnight delay; our flight did get out, so I don't know how they'd handle an overnight. And presumably the summer volumes will be higher, so they'll need to staff accordingly. Also, a later Euro bank will keep the gates around the DL Connection area busier later, so it'll be more crowded. But DL's good handling of our delay bodes well for dealing with summer T-storms at JFK.

Jim

[Edited 2007-04-23 07:38:47]
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Mir
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 5):
T2 was quite spacious and comfortable

Which T2 did you go through? I can't have been the same one that I went through last month. Overcrowded, cramped, and minimal food options (though to be fair, the much nicer T1 also has that problem).

DL has run out of room at JFK, and they'd better be doing some very creative thinking if they want to be able to grow anymore.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
panamair
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:13 pm

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 1):
I guess the times will be something like 430PM for the first bank and 830PM for the second?

This new schedule is already in effect (started at the end of March). Basically, the first bank starts in the 4-5pm hour with flights to KBP, SVO, ACC, IST, ATH, BUD, and FCO (later in the summer). The second bank is between 7 and 8pm (for NCE, VCE, DUB, FRA, TXL, MAD, BRU, 2nd LGW, 2nd FCO, PSA, OTP). In between, there are scattered flights spread out between 5 and 6 - to AMS, CDG, 1st LGW, and BCN, and then the later ones after 8pm - MAN, SNN, BOM, and GRU.

The arrivals are also spread out more now. Of course BOM and GRU come in 6-7am (to be joined by TLV next year). The European arrivals also start much earlier this summer, with AMS at 1130am. There is a new bank of arrivals around 5pm (2nd LGW, 2nd FCO, ATH, IST, BUD, ACC, OTP, PSA).


One of the biggest causes of delays with DL JFK is the ramp and push-back/taxi situation. Unlike say in ATL where there can be two taxi lanes in between concourses, the alleyway between T2 and T3 as well as between T2 and T1 are narrow and can only accomodate one lane at a time. This is often the cause of delays as planes cannot push back for a good 20-30 minutes after closing the boarding doors because the alleyway is being blocked by other departing or arriving aircraft. One of the ways DL can mitigate this is to do prudent gate assignments so that a whole bunch of planes leaving at the same window aren't all parked next to each other and tripping over each other to push back and taxi...this of course is easier said than done, especially at peak times....

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Which T2 did you go through? I can't have been the same one that I went through last month. Overcrowded, cramped, and minimal food options

T2 is gradually being refurbished...the new shops have opened now while the food area is currently being reworked. New carpets are also in place already. They are also turning the whole T2 check-in area into a "Premium" check-in terminal with BusinessElite check-in one side, and Medallion/Domestic First check-in on the other; should be ready for the summer rush.
 
NYCAAer
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:53 pm

Nice to see an airline taking steps to avoid congestion and maintain an on-time schedule. The first bank of Europe flights out of JFK in the early evening is always subject to delays- you taxi out and sit in line for take-off for an hour. Nothing worse than the captain coming on the P.A. and saying, "We're number 38 in line for take-off."
 
jfk777
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:47 am

Its been that way for years even when Pan Am and TWA were to two big players at JFK. One clogger of note especially in the short haul is JET BLUE. I have sat at JFK at 7:00pm on JB in between all the 744, 777 and 763 and looked to see way too many JB holding up the traffic. EL AL has to go to TLV at thta time of the day, JB doesn't need another flight to FT. Lauderdale. JB has bought lots of good to JFK at off hours but during the evening international push maybe it could have NO Flights for 90 minutes.
 
787EWR
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
Besides Delta's expansion, what major growth will there be this summer?

JetBlue, even though they are under some scrutiny, may expand, especially with the summer season coming up.

Also, with the pending USAEuropean Union Open Skies discussion, we could see a bit more traffic. New York is the major US Gateway on the Atlantic and only JFK and Newark can handle such traffic.

Actually, Stewart International in Newburgh NY has the capacity and I think the facilities to support international traffic. Even though it is a trainride away from NY, I would question weather Ryanair or even BMI would consider that airport.
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 10):
Also, with the pending USAEuropean Union Open Skies discussion, we could see a bit more traffic.

The summer season begins in about a month...Wouldn't any new service have been announced already?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
787EWR
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
The summer season begins in about a month...Wouldn't any new service have been announced already?

You are correct. Unfortunately, I don't know the exact status of the negotiations.

When the springsummer season comes in, kiddies are out of school and parents decide to take vacations. Jetblue and Delta will be flying a lot of people down south and across the Pond.

The other issue might be weather. Needless to say, it was a rough winter and we really didn't get that much snow. New York has some interesting weather during the summer months. Unlike Florida, the T-Storms here can be quite intense and last for a bit of time.
 
EasyVictor
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:25 am

I remember when I was an AA flight attendant, I was always dozing off in my jumpseat taxiing out at JFK in the evenings. It always seemed to take at least an hour to get off the ground. If I happened to get a look out the window, there seemed to a line of about 40 planes taking off. Is that mess still going on? I haven't flown out of JFK years.
 
richierich
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Its been that way for years even when Pan Am and TWA were to two big players at JFK. One clogger of note especially in the short haul is JET BLUE. I have sat at JFK at 7:00pm on JB in between all the 744, 777 and 763 and looked to see way too many JB holding up the traffic. EL AL has to go to TLV at thta time of the day, JB doesn't need another flight to FT. Lauderdale. JB has bought lots of good to JFK at off hours but during the evening international push maybe it could have NO Flights for 90 minutes.

You must be kidding, right?
I agree that JetBlue's expansion at JFK has helped push the airport to its operational limits but they are hardly the only culprit. And, in fairness, a bad day at JFK is rarely worse than a bad day at LGA or EWR, or even ORD, BOS, and ATL for that matter.

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 10):
Actually, Stewart International in Newburgh NY has the capacity and I think the facilities to support international traffic. Even though it is a trainride away from NY, I would question weather Ryanair or even BMI would consider that airport.

Have you ever actually considered getting to/from Stewart on public transportation? From The City, its a royal pain to say the least - I'm not even sure of the easiest way to do it besides taking a taxi.

If there was a consistent, economical, easy and (somewhat) fast way to do it, then you would definitely see more airlines consider the attractiveness of SWF. But we all know there is no such solution, so SWF has to continue in relative isolation from New York City, appealing mainly to those that live in lower New York's suburban counties and those in NYC who have car access and are willing to drive across the Tappan Zee.
None shall pass!!!!
 
787EWR
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 14):
Have you ever actually considered getting to/from Stewart on public transportation? From The City, its a royal pain to say the least - I'm not even sure of the easiest way to do it besides taking a taxi.

If there was a consistent, economical, easy and (somewhat) fast way to do it, then you would definitely see more airlines consider the attractiveness of SWF. But we all know there is no such solution, so SWF has to continue in relative isolation from New York City, appealing mainly to those that live in lower New York's suburban counties and those in NYC who have car access and are willing to drive across the Tappan Zee.

I agree with you. I have stayed with friends up there an made the 1.4 hour ride back to NY on the Metro North. Not fun. I would also agree that it is perfect for those in Westchester or Orange New York for trips to the south.

The Port Authority of New York is buying(sic) operations rights of Stewart for 99 years. They have already proposed a rail link between the airport and one of the Metro North stations.

I am not saying that RyanAir or Easyjet could do this, due to the fact that their planes may not be certified to make a trans-atlantic crossing, but based upon how their models are set up(using airports some distance from the City centers, I would think it might be a possibility.)
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 14):
Have you ever actually considered getting to/from Stewart on public transportation? From The City, its a royal pain to say the least - I'm not even sure of the easiest way to do it besides taking a taxi.

Try flying Ryanair into "Frankfurt"-Hahn or "Hamburg" (Lubeck). Your only chance at transportation are either busses, which run like every half hour, or rental cars. So SWF would be no different.
But oh well, don't want to sway away too much from the original topic.
 
greenguy01
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:06 am

I actually think that the majority of the congestion problem is DL. Remember last summer when they started adding all those Dash8's? Here are some JUNE departure stats:

DL Departures (including regionals)
Jun 2006 - 108
Jun 2007 - 194

an increase of 86 departures Y-O-Y!!!

B6 Departures
Jun 2006 - 141
Jun 2007 - 182

an increase of 41 departures Y-O-Y
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you to their level and beat you with experience.
 
Tbird
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:21 am

This past Saturday gate hold times were an hour at the Delta ramp. JFK tower was sending Delta's planes all around the airport to sit and wait until their gate was open. One controller got a bit hot under the collar and told one Delta pilot "If your entire fleet wasn't I could move you."
 
woodsboy
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:33 am

I do everything I can to avoid JFK for international connections AND plaine old trips to the NYC area. It makes me ill that DL has concentrated so much of their international ops on JFK because, as many others have noted, JFK is a bitch! Its at least a step to make some of the international departures later than the huge traffic jam time where even if you leave the gate on time you end up in a line up of god-knows-how-many planes waiting to take off. Then, you burn so much fuel waiting to t/o you have to return to the gate to fuel then taxi back out, good lord! And dont get me started on the airport itself, what a mess that place is. It seems like they are beginning to get things together but at a snails pace.

If I can get where I need to go from CVG then thats what I choose although its been tougher lately out of CVG with the emphasis on JFK and even ATL which is better than JFK but not that much better! I guess that alot of international travel actually originates from JFK as opposed to connecting through, otherwise why would they have wasted all this time on JFK but honestly I have not seen stats on that so I cant say for sure.
 
UN_B732
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:41 am

About their situation handling, just talked to a friend was forced to spend last night at JFK Gate 23/25, they gave them blankets, water, and biscoffs, at least.

The terminal really isn't that bad - it's not modern, but it's average.

-A
What now?
 
richierich
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting Greenguy01 (Reply 17):
I actually think that the majority of the congestion problem is DL. Remember last summer when they started adding all those Dash8's? Here are some JUNE departure stats:

DL Departures (including regionals)
Jun 2006 - 108
Jun 2007 - 194

an increase of 86 departures Y-O-Y!!!

B6 Departures
Jun 2006 - 141
Jun 2007 - 182

an increase of 41 departures Y-O-Y

Interesting. I guess JFK is just becoming a hotbed of domestic (and international) activity. I will concur with other posters that if your flight leaves JFK anywhere between 5PM and 9PM, expect to spend at least an hour on the ground waiting in line for takeoff. If you hadn't flown from the airport in, say, 5 years, this would come as quite a shock as most of the time used to be spent just getting to the end of the runway!

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 10):
JetBlue, even though they are under some scrutiny, may expand, especially with the summer season coming up.

What scrutiny are you referring to exactly? Do you mean the Feb storm? I'm sorry, but I fail to see what that has to do with JetBlue's expansion.
None shall pass!!!!
 
whoopwhoop
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:02 am

Heck, they cant even fix the ground power at the gates.
 
GlobalATL
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:16 am

Can we demolish everything and start over?

[Edited 2007-04-23 21:21:12]
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
richierich
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 23):
Can we demolish everything and start over?

even if you could, the PANYNJ would remain in charge, thus the problems would still very much exist....
None shall pass!!!!
 
BN727
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:06 am

The new Delta connection flights aren't helping the saturation at JFK..All those new Dash-8 ans RJ flights recently added...Delta has done it to themselves...Stop blaming B-6 for Delta difficulties......Delta creates enough of thier own problems as do any other air carriers...Nice to see an attempt by Delta at seeking solutions though...
 
Mir
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
One clogger of note especially in the short haul is JET BLUE.

At least they are building a new terminal with enough gates so that they don't have to have planes waiting and clogging up the taxiways. The same can't be said for DL.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DeltaRules
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Which T2 did you go through? I can't have been the same one that I went through last month. Overcrowded, cramped, and minimal food options (though to be fair, the much nicer T1 also has that problem).

I was wondering the same thing. I flew JFK-DCA in February (in good weather) & had a miserable experience. Too many people in too little space; that terminal was a zoo.

DeltaRules
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DL4EVR
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
They are also turning the whole T2 check-in area into a "Premium" check-in terminal with BusinessElite check-in one side, and Medallion/Domestic First check-in on the other; should be ready for the summer rush.

I know BE is currently allowed to check in there, but still nothing about medallions or domestic F (at least as of 3 weeks ago.) Do you have an exact time as to when it will open? May? June? I love JFK, but it would sure be nice not to have to shlep all the way through T3 and the Rotunda.
We Love To Fly And It Shows.
 
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STT757
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 24):
even if you could, the PANYNJ would remain in charge, thus the problems would still very much exist....

How is that exactly, they don't schedule the flights nor do they control the airspace. The largest problem for JFK and EWR and LGA is airspace constraints, not runways. Between EWR, JFK and LGA they have 9 runways, yet they handle less travelers per year than LHR and LGW with three.

EWR, JFK and LGA have to share airspace with TEB, WRI, TTN, PHL, SWF, ISP etc.. The FAA's airspace redesign will help address many of the capacity constraints at the three regional airports through new additional arrival/departure routes, although NIMBYs are jumping up and down because it's going to bring air traffic to places that have not had to live with aircraft overhead.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...2bec4c-2718-4b60-8d18-dc28499ba9dd
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richierich
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 29):
How is that exactly, they don't schedule the flights nor do they control the airspace. The largest problem for JFK and EWR and LGA is airspace constraints, not runways. Between EWR, JFK and LGA they have 9 runways, yet they handle less travelers per year than LHR and LGW with three.

Well, I speak partly in jest. Of course they don't control the airlines or flight schedules. But, as a quasi-governmental agency, they definitely do their part to stunt growth and rebuilding projects, thus adding to the misery. Because no one airline is completely to blame for the congestion at JFK, you have to look at the shortsightedness of the agency that runs the airport too.
None shall pass!!!!
 
ramerinianair
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:47 am

Good point STT757 . . . they do have problems with airspace. Even though LGA takes off ont he upwind runway and uses the crosswind runway to land, they can't pop a plane out every 60 seconds. JFK uses 2 upwind runways for it's operation so, they can get planes out of there at a rate of 60 per hour. They use the parallel runways, one for departur and one for landing.
Recently, DL has authorized their pilots to request an intersection departure to get them off the ground faster. When they are using the 4s or 22s, DL wants to take off from 31L at Kilo. This way, they would still have around 12,000' to take off and they wouldn't have to wait in line with the que of 35-55 aircraft awaiting clearance on 4L/22R or 4R/22L.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
Mir
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RE: DL Prepares For Summer Ops Problems At JFK

Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting Ramerinianair (Reply 31):
Recently, DL has authorized their pilots to request an intersection departure to get them off the ground faster. When they are using the 4s or 22s, DL wants to take off from 31L at Kilo. This way, they would still have around 12,000' to take off and they wouldn't have to wait in line with the que of 35-55 aircraft awaiting clearance on 4L/22R or 4R/22L.

It's not just DL doing this. However, keep in mind that during the international departure push, taking off from 31L will not be an option for flights going to Europe.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

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