UALMMFlyer
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Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:10 pm

Quote:
If Airbus firms up the specifications of the largest A350 model so that it competes directly against the hugely successful 777-300ER twin-aisle jet, then Boeing may have to act. Revamping any of its older planes would likely involve incorporating new technologies developed for the 787, including more efficient engines.

The company could put a revamped 777 on the front burner, ahead of a 737 replacement, McNerney indicated.

Link to article:


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...echnology/2003681476_boeing26.html
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slz396
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:18 pm

Well they need to, or Airbus is going to pull the carpet from under their feet with the A350-900 and A350-1000.

I guess new engines for the 777 together with a weight reduction effort could help the 777 stay competitive, although it may be interesting to see what kind of complications the GE/777 marriage brings as Boeing can't just ditch the GE-90 and go with RR and their Trent for the 7773NG, whereas it is very unlikely from their reluctance to step into the A350XWB GE is willing to dump the GE-90 already (have they even made their money back on it already?)

Interesting to note also Boeing itself isn't willing to sacrifice the 777 for something completely new (the much discussed Y3), which in a way does make sense as that plane would in effect wipe away 2 relatively new Boeing products at once: the 777 and the 748, but on the other hand, it definitely feels like Boeing is reacting in very much the same way to an all new technology aircraft taking a good shot at their core business, as Airbus was a few years ago when the 7E7 was announced: by trying to upgrade the existing and highly successful competing product...

[Edited 2007-04-26 13:23:36]
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:19 pm

I think a 787-11 would make far more sense than a revised 777. A 787-11 with the same payload/range performance as the 777-300ER would weigh 80-85,000 lbs less. I believe Boeing might be able to trim 20,000 lbs from the 777-300ER, but not 80,000 lbs. A 787-11 would also cost much less to produce than any 777.
 
eraugrad02
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:27 pm

Did Boeing ever get the weight down on the 777-200LR?
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tinpusher007
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
I think a 787-11 would make far more sense than a revised 777. A 787-11 with the same payload/range performance as the 777-300ER would weigh 80-85,000 lbs less. I believe Boeing might be able to trim 20,000 lbs from the 777-300ER, but not 80,000 lbs. A 787-11 would also cost much less to produce than any 777.

I concur. Boeing needs to learn their lesson here from the 764 vs A332. Airbus learned the same thing when trying to 'revamp' the A330 to compete with the 787 and it didn't work. Its a given that the A350XWB will have newer technologies that the current 777 doesn't have, after all the A350 was designed to leapfrog Boeing's technology with the 787. So unless Airbus doesn't get the A350 right, which I doubt, Boeing will have to come with a newer, bigger 787 to go against it.
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PEET7G
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:17 pm

...and I think a well thought Y3 would make the most sense and possibly blow away competition... R.I.P.

but seriously, I could just see Boeing do both, come up with a revamped 777 and start works on the Y3 with a targeted EIS of 2017-onwards. Just think the 777-300ER will be a sole player until 2015 (Airbus time) it is still 8 years of dominance (especially with a revamped 777 family), if everything goes well at Airbus, and if they pull an other A380 mumbo jumbo act it could be that Y3 and the A350XWB-1000 comes on line togeather. We are talking about like 10 years. Hell 12 years ago 777s have just started rolling of the lines, and the -300 series are not even 10 years old (1998 if I'm correct)
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:22 pm

I think this is a potentially dangerous road for Boeing. It is not likely that they will be able to get enough added efficiency out of the 777 to compete with the A350XWB, and so the effort would be wasted. Look at what success Airbus had with trying to improve the A330 to compete with the 787; Boeing would be putting themselves in exactly the same position and would end up launching Y3 before Y1, which IMHO would be stupid. The A320 is Airbus's cash cow; rather than try and defend the 777 they can cut the legs out from under Airbus with Y1, and concede the 777 market to the A350, while the 787 eats the A330 and A340 for lunch. As to making a 787-11, that is probably stretching the design farther than it can economically go. Look at the A346; I believe that Boeing would end up with the same situation; a plane that is too heavy because it is too long and probably having CG issues as well.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:24 pm

I agree that Boeing can only do so much with the 777, but history has shown that even when a superior product enters the market, much less is defined, the prior product doesn't instantly die, especially when that product has a solid track-record behind it.

Boeing still sold plenty of 767s when the A330 entered service. And Airbus is still selling plenty of A330s with the 787 on the cusp of EIS. Boeing still sold passenger 747s when the A380 was launched and Airbus still sold A340s when the 777 took to the skies.

The A350XWB is not going to end the 777, even if it hits every design goal Airbus has for it. So Boeing will not be forced to launch Y3 lest it cede the entire 300+ seat market to Airbus. Just as Airbus has used the past few years to push as many A330s and A340s they can in the face of the 777 and 787 backlog, Boeing will do the same with the 777, especially if EK and QR take the first 200 A350XWB frames and push availability for other customers into the latter-half of the 2010's.

This will give Boeing the time it needs to decide to respond with a 787-10ER and 787-11 or go forward with Y3.
 
NoWorries
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:33 pm

On the one hand, Boeing has said on several occasions that the A350XWB shouldn't be compared to today's 777 because it (T7) will improve in some way by the time the 350 launches -- on the other hand, when pressed for details they are very elusive (somewhat understandable). For example, in a recent briefing at JPMorgan, Randy Baserler ruled out new materials (e.g. CFRP panels). That doesn't leave much room for improvement ... new engines, a new wing would cost more $$$. The only other area that I can imagine is that Boeing uses the full 787 "electric airplane" technology (and bleddless engines) to save some additional weight and improve performance. Has Boeing ever said how much additional savings is attributable to bleedness engines and "all electric" systems on the 787?. One could strongly argue that investing in that kind of technology on a frame with a limited life is a waste, but that technology might carry directly over into Y3 since it would likely be a similarly sized frame, (Maybe a bit far-fetched, but could they do a little bit of Y3 now -- new engines and systems for 777-- and do the rest a little later.)
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:38 pm

Watch for a CFRP replacement, as the 787 will have several years of service under it's belt, and any A-350 weakneses will have been revealed for Boeing to capitalize on.

I still think that Boeing will do the 737 replacement first, as it would hurt Airbus the most if done correctly.
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bigjku
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:55 pm

I don't know that I see much more than a statement that the 777 upgrade might be done in the near future. They have already said they are not going to change it to CFRP panels. I suspect any upgrades would simply be additional weight removal, new engines and some other assorted 787 tech. Likley not anything too expensive or too time consuming IMHO.

I think any program you see here will likley be done to give current 777 customers a chance to top off their fleet and upgrade their current fleet if they decide to do so to a modern standard. I would be shocked if they went with a new engine for it. The GenEx is not big enough and it would be a bad investment on GE's part to upgrade the 90 for a 777 upgrade unless it also could be used on Y-3 eventually.
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:40 pm

Problem: GE wont want to do a new engine. At least not until their GE90-115B investment is amortised.

As for the 777 itself, its a great plane but its today plane. Im feeling something of a deja vu sensation, the situation is the same as it was several years ago when Airbus proposed redesigning the A330 to counter the 787.

In my opinion Boeing should let nature take its course with the 777, and concentrate on doing larger versions of the 787, namely the -10ER & -11, a wiser investment.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
Problem: GE wont want to do a new engine. At least not until their GE90-115B investment is amortised.

There is little doubt that the Ge90-115B has amortized it's development cost. Now they are just trying to protect their golden goose for as long as possible, but they will know better than anyone that if someone must replace their cash-cow, they should be the ones to do so.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 9):
I still think that Boeing will do the 737 replacement first, as it would hurt Airbus the most if done correctly.

As do I. This may simply be rhetoric to customers that the 777 isn't obsolete yet and that it will still put up a fight against the A350. In the end, I strongly suspect Boeing will stretch the 787 line rather than upgrading the 777.
 
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
As for the 777 itself, its a great plane but its today plane. Im feeling something of a deja vu sensation, the situation is the same as it was several years ago when Airbus proposed redesigning the A330 to counter the 787.

Yep... its too conservative. Boeing should do the 737RS first and then Y3. Yes, this would keep Airbus alive off of widebody orders, but business before pride!  yes 

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JAL
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:02 pm

Wouldn't a replacement for the 737 be a more a priority for Boeing?
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
This may simply be rhetoric to customers that the 777 isn't obsolete yet and that it will still put up a fight against the A350.

I hope this is the case; IMHO if Boeing were to try to make the 777 competitive with the A350 (which they won't be able to do), or worse, launch Y3 before Y1, it will be almost as big a strategic mistake as Airbus doing the A380 in the first place. They have the chance to really dominate by doing Y1 before Airbus can match it; Airbus has the jump with the A350; they should concede it until they can crush it with Y3, which will have the advantage of several more year's worth of advances if they do Y1 first. They have the midsized market pretty well locked up with the 787; they should not get too greedy.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
Problem: GE wont want to do a new engine. At least not until their GE90-115B investment is amortised.

There is little doubt that the Ge90-115B has amortized it's development cost.

Sorry, I mean their investment in the 777LR/ER programme to be precise. According to a recent thread, GE themselves expect this to happen in 2012.
 
redflyer
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting NoWorries (Reply 8):
The only other area that I can imagine is that Boeing uses the full 787 "electric airplane" technology (and bleddless engines) to save some additional weight and improve performance. Has Boeing ever said how much additional savings is attributable to bleedness engines and "all electric" systems on the 787?

I'm not sure the advantage of all electrical systems over pneumatic ones is so much weight savings as it is maintenance cost savings.
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futurecaptain
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:44 pm

Boeing should NOT put the 737 replacement on hold so they can dedicate resources to the 777 IMO. They are poised to launch the 737RS with a first flight date set in the mid 2010's. An area Airbus can't even wish to match. Let Airbus have the high seat market for now with the hugely sucessful A380 and A350-1000XWB, the 787 is selling like pancakes at IHOP and the 737 replacement market is several thousand frames large. Airbus will be fiddling mostly with the XWB till about 2012-2014 I'd guess, with the 787 getting finished up in the next year or two the 737RS, an entirely new design with all the new technology, can be in the market by 2015 I'd assume. Kick Airbus twice while they're down, 787/737 combo. Two planes which we know will sell fast and which there are huge markets for. The 777 can live on for now, go after the huge narrowbody market.
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EI321
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 18):
Boeing should NOT put the 737 replacement on hold so they can dedicate resources to the 777 IMO.

It might not be as bad as it sounds. Nobody is expecting Airbus to move first on the 737/A320 replacement size (ignoring the A320E which is just an update).
 
NoWorries
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 18):
Kick Airbus twice while they're down, 787/737 combo

I agree completely that this would be a serious hit to Airbus. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe that Boeing wants to "hurt" Airbus. There's a certain safety and comfort in a duopoly. If Boeing is content with a 50/50 NB split with Airbus for the next 5 years or so, maybe they'd rather put their capital towards more immediate needs. The disadvantage to moving first on 737RS is that it does give Airbus a chance to "respond" a bit later. Just my opinion, but I think A nd B are going to watch each other carefully, but not move too quickly here -- unless some other 3rd part becomes a serious threat.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:59 pm

In the article of the SEATTLE TIMES it says:

The company could put a revamped 777 on the front burner, ahead of a 737 replacement, McNerney
indicated.

Nevertheless, when textually quoting what McNermey said, I do not see the "ahead of a 737..." part.

1)Given that lately the press ) is acting very confusedly, has anybody seen the complete text of
McNermey's statements, to verify if this phrase is only a S. Time deduction or he really said that ??

I ask this because I do not see that if Boeing was able to develop simultaneously the B787 and the
B748i (pax+cargo), why now they cannot do it with the B777 and B737 follow-up models !

Two additional questions:

2) Why is Boeing not pursuing instead the alternative of a B787-10X to compete with the captioned
A350 model ??
Is it because BOEING is thinking that revamping the B777, similarly as done with the B747-300ER
to create the B748, is quicker and cheaper ??

3) Has AIRBUS the means (presently they did not have the funding for the basic line) to develop
such a A350, which, as McNermey stated some weeks ago, is a very different aircraft and not a
simple extrapolation of the smaller aircraft ?

Thanks in advance for your input

Aminobwana





:
 
bigjku
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
I hope this is the case; IMHO if Boeing were to try to make the 777 competitive with the A350 (which they won't be able to do), or worse, launch Y3 before Y1, it will be almost as big a strategic mistake as Airbus doing the A380 in the first place. They have the chance to really dominate by doing Y1 before Airbus can match it; Airbus has the jump with the A350; they should concede it until they can crush it with Y3, which will have the advantage of several more year's worth of advances if they do Y1 first. They have the midsized market pretty well locked up with the 787; they should not get too greedy.

I would think it is probably not the case. Doing Y3 first would present almost as much of an engine problem as Y1 I would think. The 777 has a healthy backlog that would get it through for a while and it will still sell for 3 or more years well enough. Talk of a 777 upgrade is probably limited to things that could be done to the airframe without major reworking or retooling of the line. Additionally I would suspect it is meant to sort of keep people guessing on their response to the A350-1000.

I think we are seeing a massive game of chicken. Airbus does not want to announce its final specs for the 1000 because it does not want Boeing to make an equal or better 787-10. Boeing is holding off on the 787-10 to see exactly what the competition is from Airbus. Airlines that want a 777 replacement are sort of caught in the middle. In the end I suspect that Boeing will build a 787-10 that takes a bit more work than a simple stretch somewhere in between the A350-900 and the A350-1000 to keep some level of competition in the market. It is sort of a game of who will show their hand first.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 9):
I still think that Boeing will do the 737 replacement first, as it would hurt Airbus the most if done correctly.



Quoting NoWorries (Reply 20):
I agree completely that this would be a serious hit to Airbus.

What is this? A dog fight? I don't believe either Boeing or Airbus are making strategic decisions just to 'hurt' the other. They both know it is their task to build the best selling aircraft in order to make profit. Nothing more, nothing less. And for all us passengers: let's hope the competition will keep going on. If it becomes a monopoly the planes will not develop a lot and the prices for planes and tickets will go up!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:30 am

Well one things for sure the sooner Boeing launch the 737 replacement, the less profits they will take from the 737NG.
 
atlflyer
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:42 am

I love the 777, so it would be nice to see an updated version of it in 2012. How about a composite 777? It doesn't seem like they need to design a new fuselage because its already the perfect width!
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 25):
How about a composite 777?

That would effectivly a new aircraft.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
Well one things for sure the sooner Boeing launch the 737 replacement, the less profits they will take from the 737NG.

That is a very shortsighted reason to delay. Right now the 737 and A320 are pretty well splitting the market, and Boeing is selling them faster than they can build them. With the Y1 they will totally outclass the A320 and will be able to sell far more than they can build, which will mean they can make a lot more money with them. Also, since it will take far less labor to assemble, they can much more easily ramp up production, assuming that the suppliers can keep up. But with the market for small airliners as big as it is I think they will, and the A320 will be left in the dust. This is a far bigger prize than the 777 market, which will have to wait for Y3.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:00 am

I would think that before Y3 is made, Boeing would update the 777 by reducing weight and using new engines. I wonder if airlines would prefer if Boeing offered two engine options like on the 787, although the 777-200LR and 777-300ER have been quite successful even though they only feature one engine option. Maybe GE can make a new GE95 engine to replace the GE90 and offer it on the updated 777. Also Boeing could use a 787 style cabin and cockpit, but with the 777-style windows. The 747-8 was initially supposed to use a 777-style interior, but will now use a 787-style interior.

Here are some ideas:
777-8 - Replacement for the 777-200LR
777-9 - Replacement for the 777-300ER
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 18):
with the hugely sucessful A380 and A350-1000XWB

...say what?
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bmacleod
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:24 am

Isn't Y3 supposed to be the 777-300ER replacement? Designing a 777-400 or 777-500 wouldn't make any sense and as quoted above, a 787-11 would be an excellent competitor to the 350-1000.
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
pygmalion
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:26 am

The 787-10 competes well enough with the A350X-900. The EIS of the A350X-1000 that competes with the 773ER is something like 2015. With a refresh of the 3ER, Boeing protects its market for the 3ER for the near term. After EIS of the 737RS project in 2014 or so... Boeing could launch the Y3 for EIS in 2018 replacing the 7773ER and going up into the 400-450 pax space of the 747. Like many have said about the later launch of the A350 providing technology benefits, having 6-7 years of technology might make Y3 a much better plane.  twocents   veryhappy 
 
EI321
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 27):
With the Y1 they will totally outclass the A320

Thats ties into the point I was making, the sooner Boeing developes Y1, the sooner Airbus will match it.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 28):
I would think that before Y3 is made, Boeing would update the 777 by reducing weight and using new engines. I wonder if airlines would prefer if Boeing offered two engine options like on the 787, although the 777-200LR and 777-300ER have been quite successful even though they only feature one engine option. Maybe GE can make a new GE95 engine to replace the GE90 and offer it on the updated 777. Also Boeing could use a 787 style cabin and cockpit, but with the 777-style windows. The 747-8 was initially supposed to use a 777-style interior, but will now use a 787-style interior.

They shouldn't waste the effort; the 777 will be completely outclassed by the A350-1000, and Boeing should just accept it and get on with Y1. Trying to save the 777 would be like Douglas trying to save the DC-7 in 1956.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 32):
Thats ties into the point I was making, the sooner Boeing developes Y1, the sooner Airbus will match it.

Not true; if Boeing jumps on Y1 now it will be years before Airbus can even think about it . They have their hands more than full with straightening out the A380 and getting the A350 off the ground. That is why Boeing shouldn't waste effort on the 777 and jump right to Y1. And the A320 is a bigger and juicier target than the A350.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1):
Well they need to, or Airbus is going to pull the carpet from under their feet with the A350-900 and A350-1000.

We heard the same kind of tough-talking bravado when the A380 was launched. It was going to kill the 747. Didn't happen, in fact the 747 has outsold the A380 since it was introduced.

It's one thing to create a paper airplane like the A350XWB, it's quite another to deliver it on time, on budget, and to spec.

And I'm not even sure they've created the paper airplane yet. Boeing can't respond until they have a target to shoot at.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
aircanada014
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:42 am

If composite materials proves weight reduction on B787s why don't Boeing start using composite on newer B777NGs?
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 35):
If composite materials proves weight reduction on B787s why don't Boeing start using composite on newer B777NGs?

Because that would be a new aircraft, as has been mentioned many times on this forum.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 29):
...say what?

Oh sorry, thought everyone could spot that as a bit of sarcasim in my post. Here is the updated version.  Smile  wave 

with the hugely sucessful A380 and A350-1000XWB  sarcastic 
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blackknight
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:14 am

As I have said in other posts:

Y1 provides X income over many frames were as Y3 would provide X income over less frames. This will be a money driven decision.

If Y1 is before Y3

1- A350 kills the 777
2- A350 provides Airbus needed income from deposits
3- A380 still has a market.
4- Boeing forces Airbus into a Y1 me too aircraft which can be funded from A350 deposits and A380 sales
5- 737 Killed


If Y3 before Y1

1- A350 is killed
2- A380 is killed
3- Boeing makes more money per frame than a Y1 and allows time for engine technology to catch up. Airbus would not be ready for a Y1 development.
4- 777 killed


Y1 and Y3 together

1- It is known that the engines are the limiting factor for both. Boeing gets a partnership agreement form GE and RR for both.
2- A350 killed
3- A380 killed
4- 737 killed
5- 777 killed
6- Boeing regains 75% market share temporally until Airbus gains back ground.

My bet is that the 737 is ready minus the engines and that Y3 holds more over all market success now than does Y1 due to the net effect. Boeing will be looking at how can we do both because the lack of either will hurt.
BK
 
blackknight
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:22 am

[http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3375973/?searchid=3375973&s=BlackKnight#ID3375973]

Link to other post on the same topic
BK
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1):
Well they need to, or Airbus is going to pull the carpet from under their feet with the A350-900 and A350-1000.

Wishful thinking from the home of the EU
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:27 am

Interesting analysis, BlackKnight. I would agree that Boeing is going to analyze the situation very carefully before deciding whether Y3 or Y1 should come first. My opinion is that Y1 should come first, but I could be wrong. What I would regard as foolish would be to try and tweak the 777 to stave off the A350. Any realistic scenario has the 777 flying off into the sunset, and Boeing should just accept it and figure out what to do next. I say that as a big fan of the 777, it's my favorite plane to fly.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
aminobwana
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 34):
USER PROFILESEND INSTANT MSGADD TO RESP MEMBERSSUGGEST DELETIONSELECTED TEXT QUOTED_

BoomBoom From United States, joined Nov 2005, 2275 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted Thu Apr 26 2007 10:38:37 your local time (3 hours 46 minutes 21 secs ago) and read 1140 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1):
Well they need to, or Airbus is going to pull the carpet from under their feet with the A350-900 and A350-1000.

We heard the same kind of tough-talking bravado when the A380 was launched. It was going to kill the 747. Didn't happen, in fact the 747 has outsold the A380 since it was introduced.

It's one thing to create a paper airplane like the A350XWB, it's quite another to deliver it on time, on budget, and to spec.

And I'm not even sure they've created the paper airplane yet. Boeing can't respond until they have a target to shoot at

I fully agree with BOOM BOOM. As an engineer I am baffled regarding the fact that many expect
any reaction from BOEING in front of a still not completed paper plane. Even if completed, it will
be still a pile of paper, compared with a fully designed and nearly assembled one of the same
family, as it is the B788 or B789, which would give support to any paper plane which BOEING
choses to produce (the same, even more so, would apply if the eventual Boeing design consists in a B777 development).!!!

On a lighter note: Some of the people within this Forum, if living in the 19th century, would have
immediately advised to order Captain NEMO's submarine as presented in "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" !!!!

Aminobwana
 
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 23):
decisions just to 'hurt'

Glad somebody pointed tha out, posters should stay on topic a tad more!

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 33):
And the A320 is a bigger and juicier target than the A350.

bigger, juicier...himm. Ok, anyone else visit the B twin isle narrow body exhibit questionaire? I'd love to see B introduce a Y.75/1.5 combo.

B built the 757/7667 at the same time. They probably can do 2 new frames simutaneously, soon.

Randy said the 787 was a game changer, it applies to Boeing's own products as well, including all versions of the 777, and I'd add 748I.

Please please please no more stretches, a -10 and 11 would be ugly (one a.netter was spot on calling it the sardine liner), give me a ovoid T7 cabin in the new interior. In LH colors.

Spirit reports they can increase production.

As for a nose, put the flight deck on a second level with a modern aerodynamic 747 style, only smaller. (An F version could have an optional nose door.)
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 6):
I think this is a potentially dangerous road for Boeing. It is not likely that they will be able to get enough added efficiency out of the 777 to compete with the A350XWB, and so the effort would be wasted. Look at what success Airbus had with trying to improve the A330 to compete with the 787;

I think its a question of managing expectations. I think Airbus would have been more successful sticking to their guns on The old A350 with minimal investment then moving on to more advanced things. Airbus put themselves in a corner with all their brash talk instead of just settling for 35/40% of the market and moving along to a newer better product simultaneously like Boeing is doing with the 787 and 748. As it is now they are probably at 25% A330 to B787 and have stirred a lot doubt about the company.

The beauty of the doing a 777 upgrade is that is can be done far less expesively than a new Y3 which means it can be done simultaneously with Y1. Why not do it and keep a little more market share? T7 has a bigger fuselage and will still be the premium large aircraft capacity wise. If they can get close in CASM, they'll sell some to justify ROI. That's a lot better than sitting around watching the A350-1000 take the whole thing. Upgraded engines, composite wing, better cabin humidity might do wonders.
 
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 43):
B built the 757/7667 at the same time. They probably can do 2 new frames simutaneously, soon.

They probably can, but they will be dealing with the 748 and the residual issues on the 787 during this time. They will also be developing the 787-9 & 10 as well, so their plate will be pretty full. I just hope they don't waste time on the 777.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
andessmf
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
I think a 787-11 would make far more sense than a revised 777. A 787-11 with the same payload/range performance as the 777-300ER would weigh 80-85,000 lbs less. I believe Boeing might be able to trim 20,000 lbs from the 777-300ER, but not 80,000 lbs. A 787-11 would also cost much less to produce than any 777.

But an incremental improvement of the 777 might keep airlines in their camp for a while longer till the replacement is available.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 18):
Boeing should NOT put the 737 replacement on hold so they can dedicate resources to the 777 IMO. They are poised to launch the 737RS with a first flight date set in the mid 2010's. An area Airbus can't even wish to match. Let Airbus have the high seat market for now with the hugely sucessful A380 and A350-1000XWB, the 787 is selling like pancakes at IHOP and the 737 replacement market is several thousand frames large. Airbus will be fiddling mostly with the XWB till about 2012-2014 I'd guess, with the 787 getting finished up in the next year or two the 737RS, an entirely new design with all the new technology, can be in the market by 2015 I'd assume. Kick Airbus twice while they're down, 787/737 combo. Two planes which we know will sell fast and which there are huge markets for. The 777 can live on for now, go after the huge narrowbody market.

This is what will happen. Summer 08 Y1. You would be a nice addition to marketing.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 46):
But an incremental improvement of the 777 might keep airlines in their camp for a while longer till the replacement is available.

The 777 will not be competitive with the A350, and incremental improvements won't get it there. They will be a waste of time and money.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Boeing: Next Job Could Be The New 777

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 48):
The 777 will not be competitive with the A350, and incremental improvements won't get it there. They will be a waste of time and money.

You could make the same argument with the 737NG and A320. The 737NG, while an update of an existing aircraft, has proven to be a viable competitor to the A320 series. An updated 777 could be offered as a stopgap solution.
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