WINGS
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Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:44 am



Well I have just been looking back on some numbers and I find it truly amazing how well the A330 series has done in the past few years. In doing so it has became apparent to me that despite the A350XWB and the B787 on the horizon, the A330 series may have not yet reached its sales peak.

Since the beginning of 2004, Airbus has managed to sell a total of 225 frames.

2004: 51 frames
2005: 64 frames
2006: 104 frames
2007: 6 frames.


Airbus still has 62 frames/orders that have yet to be finalised.

Current Pending Orders:

Avian Group x 6 (A332F)
Flyington x 6 (A332F)
Intrepid x 20 ( A332F)
MNG x 2 (A332F)
Thai International x 8 (A333)
Transaero x 8 (A332)
Air Asia x 10 (A333)
Oman Air x 5 (A332)
UAE Air Force x 3 (A332MRRT)
Saudi Air Force x 2 (A332MRRT)

Rumours:

Currently their are several rumours floating in regards to up coming orders for the A330.


* The Launch Customer for the A332-200F is yet unknown.
* The USAF still has to opt for the A332MRRT or B767-200 Tanker.
* RAF x 15 (A332MRRT)
* Emirates ( fleet replacement A332/343/B772) stop gap until A350XWB.
* US Airways ( extra frames ) stop gap until A350XWB.
* Le Bourget (Paris Air Show)

So they question is will Airbus manage to break the sales record for the A330 in 2007? The current record is 110 frames ordered in the year 2000.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:24 am

I have to disagree...

I think the A330 has just about reached it's peak and will gradually start sliding away soon.

Recent orders for aircrafts are simply top-up orders or orders for aircraft where airlines cannot simply wait for the 787 to come online.

At this present time the A330 is the most economical twin engine aircraft in it's class, before making the jump to the 777. As we get closer to the first deliveries of the 787 taking place orders will start to depleat and I think we will see it go a similar way to how the 767 has gone.

Also what needs to be considered is that Airbus makes all their sales in USD currency and with this been at a record high against the EUR, this is also effects the bottom line at Airbus. This has more of an effect on the manufacturer regardless of what aircraft is sold, and will probably not be able to see the blinding deals offered on aircraft they offered to airlines a few years back!

[Edited 2007-04-27 01:40:37]
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:34 am

Me thinks that a truer picture would be the actual dollar value that Airbus have been able to demand for the A330 sales since 2004. If the margins on 100 airplanes are equal to the profit gained from 20 orders prior to 2004, then they certainly won't be pushing it for long........

Cheers
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:18 am

how can you have A332F orders and no launch customer???
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:22 am

She has indeed enjoyed a solid run as of late.

I expect the 777 will continue to enjoy a similar run right up to the A350XWB's roll-out, as well.
 
kbdude
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:33 am

A330 (all models) best days are behind it..... to think differently... is to have ROSE COLORED shades on too everything A.

A330's best friend is the A380 delay compensation, A350 re-design/delay interim lift & utterly forget about USAF ordering the A330 as the KC-X replacement. Boeing is a done deal.

A330 will never break 1000 orders....

Big version: Width: 294 Height: 61 File size: 7kb
AIRBUS order website


Boeing 787 firm orders (567) are catching to AIRBUS's best plane design ever, in fact, the A330 will be surpassed fairly soon. That alone speaks volumes for its future.........
 
bogota
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:49 am

My sources have told me that AV besides the 30 A320 family aircraft that will very soon be announced as the replacement for the MD83, it has adquiered 3 A330-200 for the Colombia-Spain flights, unfortunatelly these aircraft will only be interim while the 10 B787 order is delivered to the company. Yet I am very excited to see the A330 in AV beautiful livery.
 
legoguy
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 5):
AIRBUS's best plane design ever

Forgetting about the A320 series  Wink, unless you are only talking about widebodies.

It would be great for the A330 to pass the 1000 orders mark, however for now, we can settle for A330/A340 passing the 1000 orders mark.

Could it be possible to somehow enhance the A330 with minimum costs? Such as new engines. This has probably being asked here alot.
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MX77W
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:20 am

I would only hope that perhaps Airbus will decrease the price of the A33X as demand for it decreases, this way, airlines that have lower funds to order brand new A35X and B787 might be able to order some A33X's for their much needed long-haul enhancement/expansion. I could think of a few Latin American carriers who might benefit from an A33X price drop and others throughout the world. At this point the B787 slots are very restrictred and far off, and the A35X is still a few years away, so may be A33X could reach the 1000 frame line with some suprise order from the unlikeliest carriers.

I ceirtainly hope MX will at least get some for their much needed expansion.

MX 77W
Mexicana lives on...
 
manni
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Airbus still has 62 frames/orders that have yet to be finalised.

Current Pending Orders:

Avian Group x 6 (A332F)
Flyington x 6 (A332F)
Intrepid x 20 ( A332F)
MNG x 2 (A332F)
Thai International x 8 (A333)
Transaero x 8 (A332)
Air Asia x 10 (A333)
Oman Air x 5 (A332)
UAE Air Force x 3 (A332MRRT)
Saudi Air Force x 2 (A332MRRT)

Hi Wings,

That's 68 you've listed there.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
So they question is will Airbus manage to break the sales record for the A330 in 2007? The current record is 110 frames ordered in the year 2000.

That's not unlikely.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Currently their are several rumours floating in regards to up coming orders for the A330.

Indeed, and while they are 'only' rumours, where there's smoke there's fire. KLM and Air Asia are both expected to add A330s, AY might need some more aswell, Gulf Air too is looking to add A330s. 5 in the short term for Air Asia and Mr. Fernandes said they'll operate upto 25 A330s within 5 years.

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 5):
A330's best friend is the A380 delay compensation, A350 re-design/delay interim lift

Not true. Very few of the more then 100 A330s ordered last year can be attributed to that. LH with 5 aircraft and the add on orders from QF. For this year TG's A330 might have something to do with that, altough they are replacing older A300s.

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 5):
utterly forget about USAF ordering the A330 as the KC-X replacement. Boeing is a done deal.

Not a done deal but I'd be surprised if the USAF would order the A330 indeed. Likewise the RAF will most likely go ahead with the purchase of the A330 rather then a Boeing tanker.

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 5):
A330 will never break 1000 orders....

Don't put money on that. You're going to loose it. Airbus will soon start producing 9 aircraft a month and increase that even further to 10. And that increase isn't needed to deliver the curent backlog alone.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Recent orders for aircrafts are simply top-up orders or orders for aircraft where airlines cannot simply wait for the 787 to come online.

Not only top-up orders, there have been several orders from airlines that have never ordered the A330 before. Most recently Air Asia and Finnair. Of the 4 airlines, mentioned by Wings, that have pending orders for the A330 only one has already got the A330 in her fleet.
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manni
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 7):
It would be great for the A330 to pass the 1000 orders mark, however for now, we can settle for A330/A340 passing the 1000 orders mark.

That has happened already.

Quoting MX77W (Reply 8):
I would only hope that perhaps Airbus will decrease the price of the A33X as demand for it decreases

Demand isn't decreasing. The best proof is Airbus planned production increase.
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legoguy
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
That has happened already.

Yes sorry thats what I ment. It's just the crap way I worded my sentence.

The A330 itself may not pass the 1000 mark this year, but I think in 3 to 4 years, it may well pass the 1000 mark. I can imagine alot of freighter orders happening.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
manni
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 11):
Yes sorry thats what I ment. It's just the crap way I worded my sentence.

Must have misunderstood you.

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 11):
The A330 itself may not pass the 1000 mark this year, but I think in 3 to 4 years, it may well pass the 1000 mark. I can imagine alot of freighter orders happening.

Absolutely. The freighter isn't launched with selling only 50 aircraft in mind. There's a lot of A300F's that need replacement. MNG was the first A300F that has come out saying it intends to order the A330F, but won't be the last.
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EddieDude
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting MX77W (Reply 8):
I ceirtainly hope MX will at least get some for their much needed expansion.

Well, if they want planes to fly to EZE, GRU, GIG and SCL, then the A332 is a great choice. As for Europe, I am not so sure how an A332 would fare from MEX to, say, FRA during the warm weather season... seems to me that the altitude of MEX could mean perhaps some weight penalties, though I am not completely sure. Finally, I have no idea if an A332 has the legs to do TIJ-PVG or TIJ-PEK but I am thinking it would also have weight penalties.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
bigjku
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 9):
Don't put money on that. You're going to loose it. Airbus will soon start producing 9 aircraft a month and increase that even further to 10. And that increase isn't needed to deliver the curent backlog alone.



Quoting Manni (Reply 10):
Demand isn't decreasing. The best proof is Airbus planned production increase.

The production increase has nothing to do with demand. It has everything to do with Airbus having an immediate need to push as much cash our of their two productive and profitable airliners in the A330 and the A320. Each extra frame they get out is some cash they get back and goes towards funding the A350 development and putting the A380 disaster behind them.

Airbus increased production the A320 for cash.

They increased production on the A330 for short term cash, A380 compensation and to provide A350 bridge aircraft. The compensation planes and bridge planes are not exactly high demand planes and are low margin products anyway.

It would be intellectually dishonest to say that Airbus increased A330 production because demand was rising.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 12):
Absolutely. The freighter isn't launched with selling only 50 aircraft in mind. There's a lot of A300F's that need replacement. MNG was the first A300F that has come out saying it intends to order the A330F, but won't be the last.

and the 767 is a far better A300F replacement. Strangely enough the A330F doesn't even match the efficiency of the 767F. Still the A330F is the best freighter Airbus has ever made, and will do very well.
 
manni
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):
It would be intellectually dishonest to say that Airbus increased A330 production because demand was rising.

Airbus could increase the production of A330s to 20 a month, but if there's no demand for 20 aircraft a month there's no point doing so. No production increase without demand. Someone has got to pay for all those shiny new A330s. And yes demand is rising, for how long remains to be seen, but demand has been rising 3 years in a row now.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 15):
and the 767 is a far better A300F replacement. Strangely enough the A330F doesn't even match the efficiency of the 767F.

I let the airlines be the judge of that. Sure UPS has ordered a batch of 767s, then again they already operate the type and the aircraft is available now and not in 2009. That the A300F is no longer being build and the A330F is only scheduled for 2009 plays in the 767F's advantage, for now.
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 15):
Strangely enough the A330F doesn't even match the efficiency of the 767F.

Boeing is looking at putting a new wing extensions, cockpit, undercarriage, and flaps to try and compete with the 330F, because the 330F does 25-30% more payload over similar distance for about the same fuel burn. (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8092)
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2wingtips
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 15):
Strangely enough the A330F doesn't even match the efficiency of the 767F.

Boeing is looking at putting a new wing extensions, cockpit, undercarriage, and flaps to try and compete with the 330F, because the 330F does 25-30% more payload over similar distance for about the same fuel burn. (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8092)

No it doesn't. Why do you think UPS ordered the 763F? It basically does the same job as the 332F and it's purchase price and operating costs are similar. Could say the same for DHL. I'm afraid the 332F is another niche aircraft from Airbus that won't sell 100 units.
 
n844aa
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 17):
Boeing is looking at putting a new wing extensions, cockpit, undercarriage, and flaps to try and compete with the 330F, because the 330F does 25-30% more payload over similar distance for about the same fuel burn. (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=8092)

Luckily for Boeing, they're trying to sell to the one customer in the world for whom fuel expenses are a rounding error.  Wink
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
Why do you think UPS ordered the 763F?

IMHO because UPS got a very special price so Boeing could keep the 767 line open awaiting the decision of the tanker contract and you cannot get your hands on a A330 as they are very popular at the moment.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
It basically does the same job as the 332F and it's purchase price and operating costs are similar.

Yes the 330F and 763F operating costs are similar, but the 763F has 25 to 30% less payload uplift, the 763F will carry about 54t over a similar distance the 330F will carry 69t.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
Could say the same for DHL. I'm afraid the 332F is another niche aircraft from Airbus that won't sell 100 units.

I beg to differ, I think it will be a very popular aircraft which could see several hundred in service (both new an converted) it will carry about the same as 2x757s or a DC10, with an operating cost of 70% less than 2x757Fs or 60% of a DC10F.
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2wingtips
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
Yes the 330F and 763F operating costs are similar, but the 763F has 25 to 30% less payload uplift, the 763F will carry about 54t over a similar distance the 330F will carry 69t.

Umm which 330F is that?The long ranged lower capacity one or the short ranged higher capacity one?
For UPS I can assure you the 763F will do 95% of what the 330F will do. That's in their hands. The 3 major parcel carriers(FedEx, UPS, DHL) don't like the 330F and won't order it.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
Could say the same for DHL. I'm afraid the 332F is another niche aircraft from Airbus that won't sell 100 units.

I beg to differ, I think it will be a very popular aircraft which could see several hundred in service (both new an converted) it will carry about the same as 2x757s or a DC10, with an operating cost of 70% less than 2x757Fs or 60% of a DC10F.

Excellent. Let's se who is going to be right. One thing is sure and that is Airbus have a helluva lot of work to do to gain significant market share in the WB freighter segment. BTW, is there much talk of A330 conversion programs, because I think that could be more popular than new 330Fs?
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 21):
Umm which 330F is that?The long ranged lower capacity one or the short ranged higher capacity one?

Only one type of 330F, it has a range payload graph like any other aircraft.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 21):
For UPS I can assure you the 763F will do 95% of what the 330F will do.

The 330F can carry 69t, a 763F cannot carry 65.6t (thats 95%), it has a max structural payload of about 54t (depending on engines it is 54-54.9t) which is less than 80%, people also tell me that due to the narrow fuselage it needs specially contoured pallets.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 21):
The 3 major parcel carriers(FedEx, UPS, DHL) don't like the 330F and won't order it.

Well I know your wrong on at least one count there, I suspect they will also replace the DC10Fs.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 21):
BTW, is there much talk of A330 conversion programs, because I think that could be more popular than new 330Fs?

Yes, a lot, it will be very popular, just like the 744BCF is very popular, I think new build A330Fs will be available on the market before 330 pax models are available for conversion.
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:44 pm

If the A330F is so much better than the 767F, then why is the Airplane they compare it to for all thier marketing... the A300F? None of their "omg our plane is the bestest evar!" marketing numbers make sense till you drag out the A300, then the math starts to work amazingly well.

Lets look into your other "facts"

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
Yes the 330F and 763F operating costs are similar, but the 763F has 25 to 30% less payload uplift, the 763F will carry about 54t over a similar distance the 330F will carry 69t.

According to Airbus with the "payload" option instead of "range" you get 76.4 tons of payload (2000lbs per ton)
The 767F for virtually the same range (130nm less), carries 63.7 tons, using 50 tons less MTOW. So for that extra 12.7 tons of cargo it hauls around another 37.3 tons of fuel and plane. It appears from the data that 11.5 tons of that is extra fuel, and 25.8 tons of extra structure.

This is assuming you believe Airbus's website on the payload version, since according to their spec sheet on the same web page the MZFW leaves you with only 70.9tons or the same as the range version. Might be an oversight, who knows.

Oh and thanks to a 41ft shorter wingspan, its quite possible to find places the 767 can go that the A330 can't. With the winglet program either aftermarket or the ones you say Boeing is looking into, that advantage will diminish, but the fuel burn will drop by a good bit according to the current press on the aftermarket winglet program.

Last strangely enough, the 767F according to the data has the same cargo volume as the A330F, so even that isn't an advantage.

*disclaimer, all data gathered on Airbus and Boeing websites respectively. Any errors in the numbers above blame them even if it was my calculation or copying error... heh.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
Only one type of 330F, it has a range payload graph like any other aircraft.

NOT according to Airbus. According to Airbus they are distinct models and require "conversion" between the two. What that really means I don't know. Might be just piles of paperwork, might be actual hardware changes. Clearly as in my last post the MZFW Airbus has for the A330F on their website does NOT allow for a payload higher than the "range" version.
 
WINGS
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
I have to disagree...

I think the A330 has just about reached it's peak and will gradually start sliding away soon.

I think that 2007 may prove differently. After 2008 the A330 sales will gradually die down.

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 2):
Me thinks that a truer picture would be the actual dollar value that Airbus have been able to demand for the A330 sales since 2004. If the margins on 100 airplanes are equal to the profit gained from 20 orders prior to 2004, then they certainly won't be pushing it for long........

Ohh why is it that some people always forget that Airbus will also be providing, Spares, Maintenance, Training for all of those frames.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 3):
how can you have A332F orders and no launch customer???

Simple, Airbus is holding back for what I suspect to be a big announcement. FedEx being the most likely candidate as they operate the largest A300/A310 fleet in the world

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 5):
Boeing 787 firm orders (567) are catching to AIRBUS's best plane design ever, in fact, the A330 will be surpassed fairly soon. That alone speaks volumes for its future.........

Since when was the A330 Airbus best design??? Are you forgetting about the A32X with over 3000+ frames delivered and another 2000+ on order?

Quoting Manni (Reply 9):

Hi Wings,

That's 68 you've listed there.

Oooooops

Quoting Manni (Reply 9):
That's not unlikely.

Great minds think alike. I just hope we are correct  Smile

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):

The production increase has nothing to do with demand. It has everything to do with Airbus having an immediate need to push as much cash our of their two productive and profitable airliners in the A330 and the A320. Each extra frame they get out is some cash they get back and goes towards funding the A350 development and putting the A380 disaster behind them.

Is this some kind of joke? Airbus won't be building anything that does not have a customer waiting for it. The demand for the A330 is still very well alive and healthy.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):
Airbus increased production the A320 for cash.

You are one funny man. When was the last time that you checked the Airbus A32X backlog???? They have over 2000+ orders (and counting).

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
I'm afraid the 332F is another niche aircraft from Airbus that won't sell 100 units.

Yet another comedian on A.net. Airbus has already secured 40 orders/commitments since its launch in January 2007.

Yeah they won't manage to sell an additional 60 frames  Yeah sure

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
art
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Recent orders for aircrafts are simply top-up orders or orders for aircraft where airlines cannot simply wait for the 787 to come online.



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 15):
the A330F is the best freighter Airbus has ever made, and will do very well.

In increasing production rate slightly (you can't get a much smaller ramp up than 1 extra frame per month), I guess that Airbus is trying to squeeze in as many "non-787/A350 availability orders" as possible, while anticipating strong ongoing demand for the freighter.

I wonder how many A330F sales we will see over the next 10 years or so. Would it be in the hundreds?
 
gkirk
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 25):
I think that 2007 may prove differently. After 2008 the A330 sales will gradually die down.

Lookng at the figures, I would say that 2006 was the peak year.
Yes the A330 will still win orders, but how many they will get, is anyones guess.
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EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
Why do you think UPS ordered the 763F?

Because they were cheap, already in their fleet and readily available.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:11 pm

While I think that the A330 is a very fine aircraft indeed, and the A330F too, remember that flocks of 767 aircraft (and A330 too within five years) are soon going to be available for conversion to freighters, and this will impact the 330F sales downstream. This is I think true for any new build freighter...lots of airframes being replaced by the 787/350 (and A380 deliveries too will prime the 744 conversion pump). The only wild card would be a (not unlikely) scenario of higher fuel prices and cheaper money which would push new build (A330F, 748F) back into contention for the serious players. I won't state the obvious result if a 787F appears.

Oh...WRT to the 330 reaching 1000 sales? This isn't important. It has given Airbus a healthy ROI, it generates profits (hefty ones on average) and will do so for a long while yet. In the measure that the 787 is a game changer, the 330 is playing in a changed game, and its sales will reflect that. It and the 777 will be remembered as the pinnacles of metal widebody airplanes.
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EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):
If the A330F is so much better than the 767F, then why is the Airplane they compare it to for all thier marketing... the A300F?

The A300-600F has the same cross section (and hense same pallets / containers) as the A330.
 
EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
I'm afraid the 332F is another niche aircraft from Airbus that won't sell 100 units.

How many did even the A300F sell?
 
Toulouse
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 5):
Boeing 787 firm orders (567) are catching to AIRBUS's best plane design ever,

And what about the A320???
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 25):
You are one funny man. When was the last time that you checked the Airbus A32X backlog???? They have over 2000+ orders (and counting).

I agree they have a large backlog but the real push to increase production became a necessity after the problems faced by the A380. Prior to that such an increase would have been

Quoting WINGS (Reply 25):
Is this some kind of joke? Airbus won't be building anything that does not have a customer waiting for it. The demand for the A330 is still very well alive and healthy.

I never said they did not have customers. I said they needed cash short term and were using the A330 as compensation and bridging aircraft to the A350 so they needed to increase production. There was not an overwhelming rush of airlines beating down the door to get the A330 that caused the increase.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 33):

I agree they have a large backlog but the real push to increase production became a necessity after the problems faced by the A380. Prior to that such an increase would have been

I would actually classify it as a rather huge backlog. If Airbus was to produce 40 frames per month at this present time they would have production for more than 4 years. This without gaining any more orders, which will be very unlikely.

Airbus is currently increasing production up to around 32-34 frames and will increase production up to up to 36 + 4 in China

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 33):
I never said they did not have customers. I said they needed cash short term and were using the A330 as compensation and bridging aircraft to the A350 so they needed to increase production. There was not an overwhelming rush of airlines beating down the door to get the A330 that caused the increase.

Tell that to Tap, Tam, Finnair, and all the other airlines that have been desperately waiting for nearly two years to get an A330/A340. The demand for the A330 is still very high and will continue for the next few years.



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Wings
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EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:54 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 33):
There was not an overwhelming rush of airlines beating down the door to get the A330 that caused the increase.

Current market demand for A330s is unprecidented. I know of one recent case where over 30 airlines were looking at the same single second hand aircraft that became available.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 35):

Current market demand for A330s is unprecidented. I know of one recent case where over 30 airlines were looking at the same single second hand aircraft that became available.

That would be Austrian Airlines disposing of their A332's. Luckily it was Tap Portugal that managed to grab those beauties to expand it's longhaul services and start to retire their A310-300.  Smile

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 36):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 35):

Current market demand for A330s is unprecidented. I know of one recent case where over 30 airlines were looking at the same single second hand aircraft that became available.

That would be Austrian Airlines disposing of their A332's. Luckily it was Tap Portugal that managed to grab those beauties to expand it's longhaul services and start to retire their A310-300.

I wonder would they maybe increase the line to 11/month?
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 25):
Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 18):
I'm afraid the 332F is another niche aircraft from Airbus that won't sell 100 units.

Yet another comedian on A.net. Airbus has already secured 40 orders/commitments since its launch in January 2007.

Yeah they won't manage to sell an additional 60 frames Yeah sure

Oh sadly I'm serious. How many of the commitments are firm orders??? Rejected outright by the world's 3 largest parcel carriers, you have to wonder why?
I don't buy the special price for the 763F is the only reason UPS bought them, when many speculated UPS 380 deferral/cancellation compensation would be in the form of 330Fs. Unfortunately this was rejected outright by UPS, when the case for the 330F was seemingly compelling.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 21):
Umm which 330F is that?The long ranged lower capacity one or the short ranged higher capacity one?

Only one type of 330F, it has a range payload graph like any other aircraft.

Well have a good read of the Airbus press releases of this aircraft All cock and bull of course, because any plane will fly further with a reduced payload. But Airbus are marketing the 330F on a dual role capability of either flying longer distances with less payload or shorter distances with more payload. Not rocket science is it!

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 21):
The 3 major parcel carriers(FedEx, UPS, DHL) don't like the 330F and won't order it.

Well I know your wrong on at least one count there, I suspect they will also replace the DC10Fs.

I'll go with my sources any day over yours and I contend you are wrong and none of the above will order the 330F. They don't like it, don't need it and won't order it, period.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:06 pm

I'm not surprised the A330 continues to sell well. It's a modern, efficient aircraft that's proven itself in the market. Plus many airlines can't afford to wait until the A350 comes on line or whenever the earliest available slots for the 787 are. It especially makes sense for current A330/A340 operators needing additional lift now.

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
So they question is will Airbus manage to break the sales record for the A330 in 2007? The current record is 110 frames ordered in the year 2000.

I think it's quite possible, given the steady sales the A330 continues to rack up. Though I imagine we'll see orders start to diminish over the next few years as they 787 enters service and the A350 comes closer to reality

On another topic, didn't US Airways have some A332s on order? What happened with that?

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EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 38):
Rejected outright by the world's 3 largest parcel carriers

Im gonna have to wave my BS flag at that one  white 
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Also what needs to be considered is that Airbus makes all their sales in USD currency and with this been at a record high against the EUR, this is also effects the bottom line at Airbus. This has more of an effect on the manufacturer regardless of what aircraft is sold, and will probably not be able to see the blinding deals offered on aircraft they offered to airlines a few years back!

Among all the red herrings and canards floated at a.net and supported by the Airbus agitprop department this is a huge one. Believe you me, if they didn't take steps to protect themselves from currency swings, they've only themselves to blame.

Fellas, have you not heard of currency hedging for manufacturers in the Euro zone, or escalation and indexing clauses in contracts for sale? Do you really think that the folks at Airbus accounting have not worked this one out?

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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 41):
Im gonna have to wave my BS flag at that one

Sorry Im just laughing over this thread. I'll have to second you on that one.

 rotfl 

Golly, why are there so many haters.

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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 38):
Oh sadly I'm serious. How many of the commitments are firm orders??? Rejected outright by the world's 3 largest parcel carriers, you have to wonder why?

The A332F variant was launched in January 2007. You sure are quick to predict that all three majors have rejected it only after four months on offer.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 38):
I don't buy the special price for the 763F is the only reason UPS bought them, when many speculated UPS 380 deferral/cancellation compensation would be in the form of 330Fs. Unfortunately this was rejected outright by UPS, when the case for the 330F was seemingly compelling.

Do not forget that the B767F is available now while the A332F is only available in late 2009.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 39):
I'll go with my sources any day over yours and I contend you are wrong and none of the above will order the 330F. They don't like it, don't need it and won't order it, period.

Well well isn't some one well informed  Wink Hopefully you won't have to eat your words soon. Despite all the orders/commitmensts for the A332F it is still missing a launch customer. I'm sure that Airbus is reserving it for someone special.  Smile

Regards,
Wings
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EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:17 am

What happened to the apparent order for 30 A332F from Farnborough?
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 1):
Recent orders for aircrafts are simply top-up orders or orders for aircraft where airlines cannot simply wait for the 787 to come online.

I agree, although the next couple of years could still be good, with the long time we have left before the A-350 takes to the air. The 330 is indeed a very good airplane.
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EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:50 am

How many operators of new build A300F/310F's are there?
 
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):
If the A330F is so much better than the 767F, then why is the Airplane they compare it to for all thier marketing... the A300F? None of their "omg our plane is the bestest evar!" marketing numbers make sense till you drag out the A300, then the math starts to work amazingly well.

Why did Boeing need to upgrade the 763F once the 330F was announced then ? The 763F (5,974 kg) basically had the same capacity as the A300-600F (54,636kg), but the A300-600F does not have the range of the 763F.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):

*disclaimer, all data gathered on Airbus and Boeing websites respectively. Any errors in the numbers above blame them even if it was my calculation or copying error... heh.

Where did you get the ton numbers form on the Airbus site ? its not used in industry for anything, metric tonnes yes, imperial ton no, all the real data is only in lb or kg or t (kgx1000).

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):
According to Airbus with the "payload" option instead of "range" you get 76.4 tons of payload (2000lbs per ton)
The 767F for virtually the same range (130nm less), carries 63.7 tons, using 50 tons less MTOW. So for that extra 12.7 tons of cargo it hauls around another 37.3 tons of fuel and plane. It appears from the data that 11.5 tons of that is extra fuel, and 25.8 tons of extra structure.

The A330F-RR will carry 69400 kg or 152800 lb, the 763F-RR will carry 53974 kg or 119000lb, the difference is 15426 kg or 33800 lb.

To carry that additional 15426 kg of payload it will not be hauling about an additional "50 tons", the numbers we are looking at are at the MZFW limit not MTOW limit, the MZFW of the 763F-RR is about 143t, the 330F 178t, the difference is about 35000 kg.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):
This is assuming you believe Airbus's website on the payload version, since according to their spec sheet on the same web page the MZFW leaves you with only 70.9tons or the same as the range version. Might be an oversight, who knows.

It would be for an optional increased MZFW, it is common on the 330/340.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 24):
NOT according to Airbus. According to Airbus they are distinct models and require "conversion" between the two.

Let me guess you took the statement "It is the only mid-size, long-haul all-cargo aircraft capable of carrying 64 tonnes/ 141 095 lbs of payload over 4000nm / 7400 km, or 69 tonnes / 152,120 lbs up to 3200nm / 5930 km in payload mode configuration", it is the same aircraft, one limit is for range for maximum payload, the other payload at maximum range.

Basically all aircraft have a range payload curve that look like this, it is nothing special.



for comparison I have put together a comparison between the A300-600F, 763F, DC-10F, 707, DC-8, and A330F.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/thezeke/1c703184.png

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 23):
Last strangely enough, the 767F according to the data has the same cargo volume as the A330F, so even that isn't an advantage.

Nope, the 763 cabin is about 40m long with a cross section of 4.72 m wide by 2.87m high, the 332 is about 45 m long with a cross section of 5.28 m wide by 2.54m high, the 330F essentially has a 5 m longer internal cabin.

In terms of pallets on the main deck, the 763F will take 14 88"x125" (2.24m x 3.17m) pallets and two special contoured pallets, the 330F will take 20 pallets 88"x125" and 3 pallets 96"x125" or 18 pallets 96"x125" and 4 pallets 96"x125".

The main advantage the A300 size cross section that is on the A300/310/330 is that it is a true wide body, the 767 is classed as a semi wide body, one cannot interline cargo pallets between other widebody types an the 767 without repacking efficiently, where on the A330 you can.

A330F upper deck



Side by side 96"x125"x96" pallets (standard) 18 pallets 96"x125" SBS and 4 pallets 96"x125" SR



Side by side 88"x125"x96" pallets (option) 20 pallets 88"x125" SBS and 3 pallets 96"x125" SR

767-300F



Top - Side by side 88"x108"x96" special contoured pallets x 24 pallets 88"x108" specials x 2
Bottom - Side by side 96"x125"x96" pallets (standard) x 14 pallets 88"x125" x 2 special pallets

A300-600F



Top - Side by side 88"x125"x96" pallets (standard) x 21
Bottom - Side by side 96"x125"x96" pallets (standard) x 9 pallets plus 88"x125" x 6 pallets

as you can see the 763F is closer to the A300-600F on the main deck in terms of volume, but the A300 takes wider pallets.

Under floor the 763F has 114.1m^3, and the 332F has 136 m^3.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 41):
Im gonna have to wave my BS flag at that one

Yep, sure is, Air Hong Kong (partnership between DHL and CX) operate the DHL flights regionally in Asia with A300-600Fs, presently the CX/KA A330 fleet is approaching 50 airframes, we already have a heap of standard wide body pallets, and can interline off the other widebodies onto the A300 for freight coming from all over the world either on dedicated freighters or under the floor of our existing wide bodies.

Why would we buy 767s when we dont have any in the fleet, and we would need to repack pallets before shipping them off ?

I also doubt the likes of Fedex would pass up the opportunity to interline pallets at Subic Bay off the MD-11s or DC-10s before flying them off around Asia.
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EI321
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RE: Airbus A330 - The Best Is Yet To Come?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:01 am

Nice charts Zeke, I was not aware that the A330F is so close to the DC10F.

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