XT6Wagon
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A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:17 pm

Just noticed in multiple places that Airbus is now rating the A380 as having 525 seats in "standard" configuration instead of the 555 they had been using in the press for years now. You can see this both on the specifications page, and on the commonality page

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...lies/a380/a380/specifications.html
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a380/commonality.html

This seems strange as the specifications page at least would seem like it would have the right number, and yet its different than the older materials and some of the other pages still reference 555.

Any thoughts?
 
WINGS
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Thread starter):
Just noticed in multiple places that Airbus is now rating the A380 as having 525 seats in "standard" configuration instead of the 555 they had been using in the press for years now. You can see this both on the specifications page, and on the commonality page

Interesting find.

I suspect that this may have to do with the recent Lufthansa Route proving test in which the cabin was equiped with about 525 seats. It could also be a type with a 2 in place of a 5.



Regards,
Wings
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EI321
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:34 pm

Of the carriers whom have revealed how many seats their A380s will have, could somebody make a list?

cheers
 
brendows
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 1):
It could also be a type with a 2 in place of a 5.

I remember that the figure 555 has been shown on that page before, and the cached pages on webarchive.org for http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a380/commonality.html and http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a380/a380/specifications.html confirms that too. How could anyone suddenly change the information on those two pages by accident?  ill 

Quoting WINGS (Reply 1):
I suspect that this may have to do with the recent Lufthansa Route proving test in which the cabin was equiped with about 525 seats.

That sounds more plausible, 525 seats may have turned out to be a more ideal seat config.
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Of the carriers whom have revealed how many seats their A380s will have, could somebody make a list?

SQ 470ish
QF 470ish
LH 555
EK 489/517/644 (they have 3 configs)
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:00 pm

Well, from a single passenger point of view, it doesn't make much of a difference whether you're involved in a fatal accident of a Cessna 152, Boeing 737 or an A380 in high density config...
 
Lumberton
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:24 pm

Perhaps the performance is exceeding expectations and the CASM projections will be fullfilled with the lesser number?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
keesje
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:46 pm

Aircraft flying around with close to 600 seats have been out there for ages (charters, Japan).

The worries / doom scenarios surfaced more recently.



P.S the middle seat would be called "pope seat" and be unpopular because of people (night) & trolleys running into you. Leg space is ok I guess..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TGV
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Of the carriers whom have revealed how many seats their A380s will have, could somebody make a list?

AF 540
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
w3ndytj4n
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:12 pm

The middle seat is a weird seat... I wonder why they squeeze like that..

w3ndy
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EISHN
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Of the carriers whom have revealed how many seats their A380s will have, could somebody make a list?

Air France 538
Emirates 489/517/644
Qantas 501
Lufthansa c550
Malaysia c500
Qatar c490
Singapore c490
Thai 500-530
Virgin Atlantic 500-550
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CRJ900
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:45 pm

I think it's because Airbus realise that most carriers will have lavish F and J cabins with full-flat seat/bed suites and they take up a lot of space.

The seat chart in reply 1 shows F and J cabins with 2x2x2 seating, but how many airlines will have that?
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Rj111
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:48 am

The range has gone up accordingly with 8,200nm at 525 pax.

So perhaps they're just playing around with numbers to make sure it beats/matches/comes closer to the 748I.
 
EI321
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting EISHN (Reply 13):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 2):
Of the carriers whom have revealed how many seats their A380s will have, could somebody make a list?

Air France 538
Emirates 489/517/644
Qantas 501
Lufthansa c550
Malaysia c500
Qatar c490
Singapore c490
Thai 500-530
Virgin Atlantic 500-550

The average seems to be about 520
 
XJetflyer
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:00 am

I imagine most airlines will not pack these aircraft like sardines. I also think the F-Class will be very nice. I can't see buying these expensive aircraft to only go second rate on the higher dollar seats. I suspect there will be some nice bars built on some of these aircraft also with high dollar drinks. Most airliners would be in the ballpark of 475 to 500, I would think.

Who do you think will have the best F-Class overall? Who will have the most amenities overall?
 
aminobwana
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:29 am

[

Quoting XT6Wagon (Thread starter):
XT6Wagon From United States, joined Feb 2007, 503 posts, RR: 1
Posted Fri Apr 27 2007 02:17:58 your local time (7 hours 6 minutes ago) and read 1917 times:

Just noticed in multiple places that Airbus is now rating the A380 as having 525 seats in "standard" configuration instead of the 555 they had been using in the press for years now. You can see this both on the specifications page, and on the commonality page

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...lies/a380/a380/specifications.html
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a380/commonality.html

This seems strange as the specifications page at least would seem like it would have the right number, and yet its different than the older materials and some of the other pages still reference 555

1) It could be a typo, but this is not probable, as appearing two times. But unfortunately, there are many
of such contradictions both at AIRBUS and BOEING Websites.
Further, see 2) below

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 2525 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted Fri Apr 27 2007 05:24:36 your local time (4 hours 53 minutes 19 secs ago) and read 1912 times:


Perhaps the performance is exceeding expectations and the CASM projections will be fullfilled with the lesser number?

2) I do not know what CASM means, but I assume there is a typo in your text, and what is you are
thinking that the reduction of 30 pax distributed over the 3 classes compensates the frame overweight
of 6,000 Kg, which would be compatible.

3) If the reduction to 525 is real, there are some questions:

- How would LH modify its seating arrangements ??

- As LH, the only airline which bought both aircrafts, has foreseen 555 pax for the A380 and if I am not
wrong 400 or the B748, and if I assume that the comfort level in both cases is roughly the same
(is this so ??), the A380 carried 39% more passengers at equivalent conditions. With the reduction to
525, this figure reduce itself to 31%, which obviously affects the operation and fuel cost per pax. How
will this affect the economic comparison of these aircrafts (abstracting the santimonious statements of
both companies that the are "not competing" ??)

Aminobwana
 
Morvious
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 16):
So perhaps they're just playing around with numbers to make sure it beats/matches/comes closer to the 748I

Why do they need to? There is no way you could compare the two because they will be used for a different game. The only thing I could inmagine is like what people already said. Most airliners will have less seats then the 525 mentioned or the 555 that was first told. There are not much carriers around that would buy the A380 to have more seats in it then 525. !YET!
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
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glideslope
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:52 am

Very interesting. We have a LH proving flight, and now the STD config/claims loose 25 seats?
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
Lumberton
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
2) I do not know what CASM means, but I assume there is a typo in your text, and what is you are
thinking that the reduction of 30 pax distributed over the 3 classes compensates the frame overweight
of 6,000 Kg, which would be compatible.

Cost Per Available Seat Mile. I would have to think that when Airbus pitches this aircraft to a particular airline customer, they crunch the costs and provide a projected CASM for that particular customer. I was opining that perhaps the technical performance of the A380 allows them to use fewer seats to achieve the same CASM figure.

[Edited 2007-04-27 19:11:33]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Thread starter):
Any thoughts?

The design payload has not changed, if I were to see something say "typical passenger seating", I would not then to jump and say the specification has changed, a typical passenger seating for a 744 is about 380 pax, some operators are down around 330 pax, the spec says 416.

The spec http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S...a/docs/AC/DATA_CONSULT/AC_A380.pdf still stands at 555 pax for the "Standard Seating Capacity", – main deck : First Class 22 and Tourist Class 334, upper deck : Business Class 96 and Tourist Class 103.

525 is a realistic number for a long haul configuration as they used on the route proving.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
aminobwana
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 20):
Morvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 583 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted Fri Apr 27 2007 10:37:51 your local time (2 minutes 5 secs ago) and read 24 times:


Quoting RJ111 (Reply 16):
So perhaps they're just playing around with numbers to make sure it beats/matches/comes closer to the 748I

Why do they need to? There is no way you could compare the two because they will be used for a different game. The only thing I could inmagine is like what people already said. Most airliners will have less seats then the 525 mentioned or the 555 that was first told. There are not much carriers around that would buy the A380 to have more seats in it then 525. !YET!

As I already indicated in my reply 19, I do not agree with the concept of "not competing: As you say
rightly, few carriers need more than 500 seats in a plane which can operate adequately only in a few
Mega-Airports, so the VLA market concentrates on the 350-425 pax range (always referring to the
same comfort level (pitch+widths) as the A380 offers (or offered?) for 555. In turn, this cannot be covered
by the B787/A350, i.e. the B748i.

So, why I am saying that nevertheless they are competing ??. Assuming, as could be the case of LH,
they would nead i d e a l l y 6 A380 and 40 B748i, would it be logical complicate the fleet buying both.
when, now c o m p a r i n g both aircraft for the sector where the A380 would be ideal the B748i is only
slightly less convenient ??
(in the case of LH, they are probably for the moment sticking to the A380's because the German
Government are pressuring them to do so !)

To take such decision, they must be compared, i.e. so they are competing ! !!

Aminobwana
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
So, why I am saying that nevertheless they are competing ??. Assuming, as could be the case of LH,
they would nead i d e a l l y 6 A380 and 40 B748i, would it be logical complicate the fleet buying both.
when, now c o m p a r i n g both aircraft for the sector where the A380 would be ideal the B748i is only
slightly less convenient ??
(in the case of LH, they are probably for the moment sticking to the A380's because the German
Government are pressuring them to do so !)

I am not sure if you are aware of the news in the past year, just a minor update, LH has already ordered the 748i, other Boeing press releases can be found here http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/

 sarcastic 
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
aminobwana
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 16):
RJ111 From United Kingdom (England), joined Sep 2004, 2155 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted Fri Apr 27 2007 09:48:54 your local time (2 hours 1 minute 45 secs ago) and read 1996 times:


The range has gone up accordingly with 8,200nm at 525 pax.

So perhaps they're just playing around with numbers to make sure it beats/matches/comes closer to the 748I.

Yes, you are right, This means 200 miles more (+ 2.5%), for 30 less passengers (-5.5%). Makes not
much sense ifdone at purpose, but possibly by eliminating these 30 passengers they have reduced
overall weight more than 6,000 kg, so the excess could be transformed in 200 m range increase !

In any case if in a very particular route such 200 miles were needed, this was not a reason to reduce the
generally the pax load, eliminating a few seats or simply reduce the occupance there on such flights would
solve the problem

aminobwana
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 23):
The spec http://www.content.airbusworld.com/S...a/docs/AC/DATA_CONSULT/AC_A380.pdf still stands at 555 pax for the "Standard Seating Capacity", -- main deck : First Class 22 and Tourist Class 334, upper deck : Business Class 96 and Tourist Class 103.

Zeke, the souce you have above dates from 2005. The one listed below is straight from the current Airbus website, dated 2007.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...lies/a380/a380/specifications.html

It appears that Airbus brochure data for the A380 is reducing the design passenger count (555 vs 525) to add 200nm to the design range (8000nm vs 8200nm). The payload-range chart given on page 64 of Zeke's reference is consistent with the gain in range for a 30 passenger payload reduction.

This is an interesting change to the way the airplane is being marketed.

[Edited 2007-04-27 20:42:55]
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
This is an interesting change to the way the airplane is being marketed.

What do you make of it?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
Zeke, the souce you have above dates from 2005. The one listed below is straight from the current Airbus website, dated 2007.

It was updated in Jan 2007, the document has been about for about 9 years that I know of in various forms.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
AADC10
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:15 am

I am sure that 555 in three class configuration is an exaggeration. Boeing does the same thing, claiming that a "typical" 3 class 744 configuration (with overhead crew rest) is 416 seats. This is because they make business class 8 abreast in the main cabin and 4 abreast in the dome and all have only 39" pitch which is more like Virgin Atlantic's Premium Economy than business class. UA's 744s have only 349 seats (although that is why it is rumored that the C cabin from the main door back will disappear when the new seats arrive) and even NW 2 class 744s have only 403 seats.

My guess is that 525 is a reasonable 2 class configuration and 450-490 is a decent 3 class. I hope Airbus sells enough to created a stretched A380.
 
keesje
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
This is an interesting change to the way the airplane is being marketed.

I´m sure airlines are not to impressed by these changes.

What useally happens is the marketing, network, catering and crew specialist sit together to make estimations for the different aircraft types. Including crew rates, lavatory rates, catering needs, class specifications, class build up, upgrade scenarios, etc.

Network runs simulations for the network, revenue / cargo estimations are made. Adjustments are continually tested, dozens sometimes. In the end a business case is presented by the fleet management people.

The standard / typical seatcounts play no role for an airline. They mainly play a role in the wars of words / triggering the press into uninformed conclusions.

Theoreticaaly 850 seats can be included. I think later on 600-650 seat aircraft will become more common. 11 abreast downstairs, 9 abreast upstairs, first, business, economy plus like roducts giving passengers & airlines ample options to serve "get my there for $340" backpapckers & business traveller who never see the bill.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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OA260
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 18):
Who do you think will have the best F-Class overall?

I think SQ/EK/VS will be the top 3 but then theres QR who are fast becoming one of the best.
 
RedChili
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:56 am

The "typical passenger seating" quoted by Airbus on a public web site doesn't mean much at all. No airlines follow these "recommendations" anyway! Maybe it's just an example of Airbus moving in the direction of giving "typical" numbers that are closer to the real average seat count.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 16):
The range has gone up accordingly with 8,200nm at 525 pax.

So perhaps they're just playing around with numbers to make sure it beats/matches/comes closer to the 748I.

They can play around with numbers as much as they want on a public web site. What really matters is what guarantees Airbus will give their customers when a customer asks what kind of range and CASM the A380 will offer with X number of passengers.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 22):
I would have to think that when Airbus pitches this aircraft to a particular airline customer, they crunch the costs and provide a projected CASM for that particular customer.

Couldn't agree more.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 23):
a typical passenger seating for a 744 is about 380 pax, some operators are down around 330 pax

BA even has 291 seats on some 747s.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Who do you think will have the best F-Class overall?
I think SQ/EK/VS will be the top 3 but then theres QR who are fast becoming one of the best.

VS doesn't have any F-class anymore, but their C-class is on par with what some other airlines offer in F.

I'd also put QF, TG, MH and EY on that list.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
A342
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
LH 555



Quoting EISHN (Reply 13):
Lufthansa c550

I'm fairly sure you're wrong. It won't be more than 500, maybe 510. As a comparison, the LH 748i will seat about 400.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Dougloid
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 28):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
This is an interesting change to the way the airplane is being marketed.

What do you make of it?

Senor BoomBoom, get out your AC43-13 and your pocket calculator. Then go back to the articles about the grand fandango press joyride in the A380 about two months ago. Dig out the information in which it gives seat count, aircraft weight, and fuel carried on that trip. Remember that is supposed to be very close to a production ship.

Run some numbers.

You'll see Marley's Ghost right enough, rattling his chains and otherwise being obnoxious.

 mischievous   mischievous   mischievous 
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ikramerica
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 30):
My guess is that 525 is a reasonable 2 class configuration and 450-490 is a decent 3 class. I hope Airbus sells enough to created a stretched A380.

Actually, in a "real" 3-class configuration, 525 is doable depending on premium ratio. Because you can't just invent premium traffic on a route, it's quite feasible that 525 in a real 3-class will show up.

Some carriers with higher premium demand will be at 470-500 seats.

But using those big heave seats to get that 525 wouldn't save much weight, so the range wouldn't really be 8200nm, but still likely 8000nm, making a realistic range of 7000-7200nm, which is a long way for sure. Should have no restrictions LAX-MEL, for example.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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OA260
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 32):
VS doesn't have any F-class anymore, but their C-class is on par with what some other airlines offer in F.

Yes Upper class is better than alot of others F class so I would consider VS product F class.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 28):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
Zeke, the souce you have above dates from 2005. The one listed below is straight from the current Airbus website, dated 2007.

It was updated in Jan 2007, the document has been about for about 9 years that I know of in various forms.

The payload-range plot dates back to 2002, so it really is out-of-date, no flight test data included. Guess the real world performance data missed the Jan '07 update.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 27):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 27):
This is an interesting change to the way the airplane is being marketed.

What do you make of it?

Don't know yet.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
slz396
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 26):
It appears that Airbus' brochure data for the A380 is reducing the design passenger count (555 vs 525) to add 200nm to the design range (8000nm vs 8200nm). The payload-range chart given on page 64 of Zeke's reference is consistent with the gain in range for a 30 passenger payload reduction. This is an interesting change to the way the airplane is being marketed.

Since the reduction in payload is in line with the range gain, one should first of all read in this that the A380 indeed meets all of its design specifications and Airbus has found out that the most logic configuration to market to target customers is NOT a relatively high density 555 seating configuration, but rather a 525 seating configuration.

Given the fact LH stated the A380 as they have test flown it, is a true 3 liter plane, there is no more need for Airbus to hold on to the relatively high number of pax (built in as some sort of safety net to make sure the A380 would be a 3 liter plane) and they have thus reduced the seat count to a more comfortable and realistic number of 525.

It gives them some marketing advantages indeed:
-) the A380 suddenly looks like a smaller step up from the 747 than it did at fist, making it easier to sell;
-) the customer doesn't have the feeling he is 'underusing' his plane by installing just 525 seats (or there about).
-) the A380 gets a 'hidden range boost', which definitely makes it look more attractive to an airline like CX.
 
ikramerica
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 35):
Given the fact LH stated the A380 as they have test flown it, is a true 3 liter plane, there is no more need for Airbus to hold on to the relatively high number of pax (built in as some sort of safety net to make sure the A380 would be a 3 liter plane) and they have thus reduced the seat count to a more comfortable and realistic number of 525.

But while I agree it is a more real number, the quoted passenger counts are not based on real numbers, but on a set standard criteria for Y, J and F pitch, to make it easy to compare.

Airbus changing that criteria creates more confusion not less.

Similarly, the Boeing thing about 210-250 seats for an 788 is confusing, especially when they quote range figures that don't align with those seat counts...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
walter747
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
EK 489/517/644

Would the 644 be all Y configuration?
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
brendows
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
11 abreast downstairs, 9 abreast upstairs,

There's not enough space to accommodate 11 abreast downstairs and 9 abreast upstairs. Why? The main deck on the A380 is only 21 cm wider than the 747 on the main deck, which has 10 abreast with 17,2 inch wide seats. How can you squeeze an extra seat in those 21 cm?
With nine abreast on the upper level on the A380, you would end up with seats that are about 16" wide, so no, nine abreast on the upper level is not an option either. Sorry to disappoint you Keesje.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 37):
Would the 644 be all Y configuration?

Probably not. All-Y was tried during the evacuation test, and that was 853 passengers plus 20 crew.

Quoting Brendows (Reply 38):
There's not enough space to accommodate 11 abreast downstairs and 9 abreast upstairs.

11 abreast downstairs works with 16.5 inch seats. 17.2 might be feasible with some modifications to the cabin walls... this was mentioned in Flight International a while back.

9 abreast upstairs works with 16.5 inch seats as well. The outer armrests and wall clearance can be deleted entirely, because of the configuration of the cabin wall. There is a low shelf at elbow height along the edge of the upper deck cabin, in the location of the famous "floor space that must be lost due to the wall curvature" that caused some discussion a year ago. This can conceivably serve as an armrest, even if the business class config shown below does not use it.


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Photo © Gerhard Vysocan - Aviation Art Photography - VAP



All of the above assumes 2 inch armrests, 18.5 inch aisles, and the published cabin floor widths of 248 inches on the main deck and 208 inches on the upper deck.
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 34):

The payload-range plot dates back to 2002, so it really is out-of-date, no flight test data included. Guess the real world performance data missed the Jan '07 update.

Why do they need to update the range/payload if it is meeting its performance targets ?

Flight test data has been included in the document, almost all of section 7 has been reissued this year.

It amazes me that the 787 is due to fly this year, and Boeing still has not put the range payload curve for the aircraft out to the market, Airbus got it right several years before the aircraft flew.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 34):
The payload-range plot

For everyone's benefit, here is the curve they're talking about

Big version: Width: 600 Height: 344 File size: 58kb
A388 payload range curve
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 40):
Why do they need to update the range/payload if it is meeting its performance targets ?

Where has Airbus ever said the A380 is meeting its payload-range performance targets? The only statements I've seen say that they are making their payload-range guarantees and the target mission performance is available with the optional MTOW (569t) and optional MZFW (366t), 9t and 5t increases respectively from the values used in the document you are quoting.

I'd love to see a source for a statement to the contrary.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri May 04, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 30):

I'm fairly sure you're wrong. It won't be more than 500, maybe 510. As a comparison, the LH 748i will seat about 400.

from http://www.lufthansa-financials.de/s...nvestors%20Day2007NicoBuchholz.pdf

A380 - 549
748-i - approx 410

"Source: LH Corporate Fleet Strategy and Aircraft Evaluation"

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 42):
I'd love to see a source for a statement to the contrary.

"While flight testing is proceeding as planned, the A380 is meeting or even exceeding its performance targets, and proves to be a highly reliable and comfortable aircraft."

from http://www.eads-nv.com/1024/en/inves..._ir/2006/20061003_eads_airbus.html

I have also read that aerodynamic drag and engine SFC is lower than expected, MEW is below the SQ spec, and being reduced to the EK spec (the spec was changed after EK signed to incorporate higher bypass engines at SQs request).
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
boeing767-300
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:29 pm

With reference to the payload chart in reply 41 it shows the payload to be around 52 ton for 8000NM.

What constitutes "Payload" 525 passengers + baggage + freight.

An if so is that 52tons payload out of 569 ton MTOW!!!!

How much would 525 passengers @ 80KG average (conservative) plus 20 KG equals 52.5 tons. Surely this can't be right!!
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 44):
What constitutes "Payload" 525 passengers + baggage + freight.

Both A & B use 210lb/95 kg as the "design" mass for a passenger and their baggage across all aircraft types.

Design payload for the 380 is 116,550 lb or 52.8t, 748-i 98,490 lb or 44.6 t.

For the A380, the payload it would need to uplift over the empty aircraft is the passengers and the cabin furnishings, which amounts to about 82t.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
boeing767-300
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 45):
Design payload for the 380 is 116,550 lb or 52.8t,

And the answer to the question "is payload passengers baggage and freight" is???

Quoting Zeke (Reply 45):
For the A380, the payload it would need to uplift over the empty aircraft is the passengers and the cabin furnishings, which amounts to about 82t.

Surely there is an average weight for cabin fittings for any given aircraft is a known quantity and a heavier or lighter fittings would either detract or add to the 52 ton payload.

If the 52ton figure includes Passengers baggage and Freight it seems a little short given the huge empty weight and considerable fuel volume (and weight)
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 42):
I'd love to see a source for a statement to the contrary.

"While flight testing is proceeding as planned, the A380 is meeting or even exceeding its performance targets, and proves to be a highly reliable and comfortable aircraft."

from http://www.eads-nv.com/1024/en/inves....html

We've discussed these vague statements before. While I agree that TOFL and Approach Speed are better than target, these performance figures don't equate to meeting fuel burn and payload-range targets.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
I have also read that aerodynamic drag and engine SFC is lower than expected,

If you've read it, surely you can provide a source.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
MEW is below the SQ spec,

With or without the guarantee tolerance? And again, source?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Dougloid
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:15 am

Folks, in the words of Fox Moulder, "The truth is out there."

You have but to look for it and understand what it is.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Now A 525 Seat Aircraft?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 46):
If the 52ton figure includes Passengers baggage and Freight it seems a little short given the huge empty weight and considerable fuel volume (and weight)

Well that's the industry we are in, the 744 design payload is only 39t, with about the same fuel burn as a 380.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 47):
If you've read it, surely you can provide a source.

The source was Mario Heinen, the 380 program VP, an excerpt from a presentation

"Outstanding handling qualities praised by FAA, EASA & airline pilots
Range and fuel burn – all commitments met
Excellent take off and landing performance
Noise levels better than commitments
Emissions significantly lower than current limits
Cabin comfort is unprecedented
A380 cabin and cockpit are the quietest in the sky
Proven airport compatibility"

also agrees with information in http://www.aviationindustrygroup.com...s/a380flighttestinggat-947-953.pdf

It also happened to be the first time Airbus presented the 525/380/8200nm, 405/748-i/8000nm, 370/744/7100nm comparison numbers showing a 15% per seat saving over a 748-i with a 6000 nm sector.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 47):
With or without the guarantee tolerance? And again, source?

"The first A380 weighs 0.4 percent to 0.5 percent less than a target of 245 tons when empty, Chief Operating Officer Gustav Humbert told Bloomberg News.", James Wallace, Seattle Post

"Emirates' Clark said the plane is about 1.7 percent above the 239-ton target at which Emirates ordered the plane. That weight is without cabin furnishings, fuel or passengers." Andrea Rotham, Bloomberg

The later SQ spec is different to the EK one in 2000, and it one of the sore points EK had, SQ had the spec changed for higher bypass engines driving up the weight, my understanding is the skin change that was proposed after MSN 54 will drive the MEW down to 242t, other improvements are still in progress, so far the diet removed 20t out of the aircraft.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar

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