LHboyatDTW
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US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:47 am

Considering that my sister is flying back from EZE next week on AA, I recently wondered why it's an overnight flight to South American cities like EZE and then have the plane sit there all day for it to be towed back to the gate for an overnight flight back to the US. Would the airlines save money by repositioning the flight times to have it leave an airport like ATL in the morning and then have it fly back in the night?

Can anybody here to explain why US Airlines do this?
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reality
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:53 am

Good Question. I would prefer to fly during the day....at least one way.

.

.
 
PPVRA
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):

Can anybody here to explain why US Airlines do this?

All airlines do this. From South America (at least from the southern cone) and Europe also. Reason is you don't lose a day sitting on the aircraft, and business travelers (high-yielding pax) pick these overnight flights over daylight ones.

Some airlines offer tag-on flights to improve aircraft use, others just wait all day long.
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Avianca
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:03 am

due the demand of business pax who pays a lot for a flight, it is comon also on europe-southafrica for example.

or on the QF Europe routes.

edti: typo

[Edited 2007-04-29 04:23:24]
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l1011buff
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:04 am

My LAN flights EZE-MIA were the same way. Do they operate day flights? Their service was VERY good. I'd fly with them again for sure! Kevin
 
rjpieces
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Thread starter):
Can anybody here to explain why US Airlines do this?

Overnight flights are demanded by business travellers, which is how airlines make money on any given route.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
MAH4546
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:26 am

Business travelers demand overnight flights, so that is what they get. There are a handful of daylight services, mainly between Miami and Brazil, but that is it.

American Airlines used to only park one plane in Sao Paulo, with the other planes going to Belo Horizonte, a daylight to Miami, Rio de Janeiro, and Asuncion, though now they no longer do the Belo Horizonte and Asuncion tags.

LAN hates parking planes on the ground all day, so their flights to Miami often turn around and do a daylight flight to somewhere else depending on the day. For example, on Mondays, they have a daylight MIA-CCS-SCL service; on Saturdays LAN Chile has a daylight MIA-PUJ-SCL and LAN Argentina has a daylight MIA-PUJ-EZE.
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mpdpilot
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:27 am

I just wanted to add that you can see that just about the only long flights that operate during the day are one traveling west and only because the time changes allow it. Like many have said one a 10 hour flight going north south or east it takes that long or even longer times and business travelers can only aford to loose that time at night.
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Avianca
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
LAN hates parking planes on the ground all day,

understandable. I really asking me how an airline can make money with a airplane all the day on the ground... for example the QF flight to FRA, the plane comes in at 04:55 am and leaves FRA again at 23:55
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B4REAL
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:38 am

Deep South America flights to the US generally do the overnight and all day idle, although AA and DL have from time to time had daytime flights from GRU. Here are some reasons why this makes sense (and I just returned from Brazil today!):

-Connections beyond key points of GRU/GIG/SCL/EZE.... If the end destination is beyond any of these points (and in my example it was - SSA), you realistically can work a full day or at least a 3/4 day and then fly from end point to key point to return to the US that night. As for the arrivals from US to South America, this works a lot like Europe as you arrive in the morning, and can make connections or go to directly to the arriving city.

-Because the time difference between most of South America and the US is very small, an overnight flight to or from South America is easier to take than an overnight flight to Europe assuming you get some amount of rest on the plane (and I did last night on DL 104 GRU-ATL in Y, and I'm still up now and not tired - 10:29 P.M.).

-As do US travelers to South America, travelers from South America have likely more connection opportunities than a daylight flight would give to clear US customs and connect onward domestically or internationally. In fact, many people on my ATL-GRU flight were going onward to ICN and NRT. The flight attendants also gave the in-flight service announcements in English, Portugese, and Japanese. For DL, usually it is only English and destination country's principle language. Lastly, in GRU airport near gate 12, there is a large DL advertisement to go to Japan! A little further on this topic, you find that a lot of South American travelers shop almost exclusively by price (as do Americans!) and they sometimes make what may seem as bizarre routes because it is less expensive. For example - I flew ATL-CCS once next to a gentleman who flew PTY-ATL-CCS because Copa was like $1900 for the flight and DL was like $800 or something silly like that. So you may see people doing routes like GRU-ATL-MEX simply because the price makes it worth the US customs process and extra time. You may even see more of this with AA.




Now the one thing I don't know is the crew turn rules - if for example, a DL crew flies JFK-GRU and arrives at 8:00 in the morning - can they fly GRU-ATL at 10:55 that evening? That is 14:55 between landing and takeoff - and that may work good for crew reasons - no 'dead crews'.
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MAH4546
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
understandable. I really asking me how an airline can make money with a airplane all the day on the ground... for example the QF flight to FRA, the plane comes in at 04:55 am and leaves FRA again at 23:55

If you think that's bad, El Al used to have a plane arrive in Miami from Tel Aviv on Friday mornings, and it did not leave until midnight on Saturday. Almost two whole days, but it is because El Al does not fly on the Sabbath. They changed their schedule recently so the planes just turn around, though.
a.
 
B4REAL
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
If you think that's bad, El Al used to have a plane arrive.......

That is a good example, did El Al have any other stations with that type of idle configuration? Maybe in Asia, it was probably fairly common in that situation. Also, about crew, they may have had a stranded crew or had to dead head back in some scenarios.
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rjpieces
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
They changed their schedule recently so the planes just turn around, though.

What do you mean? El Al still has those long turn arounds at EWR and JFK (arrive Friday morning, depart Saturday night).
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Avianca
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
If you think that's bad, El Al used to have a plane arrive in Miami from Tel Aviv on Friday mornings, and it did not leave until midnight on Saturday. Almost two whole days, but it is because El Al does not fly on the Sabbath. They changed their schedule recently so the planes just turn around, though.

thats explain why EL AL has "so much" profit at the end of the year....
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MAH4546
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 12):

What do you mean? El Al still has those long turn arounds at EWR and JFK (arrive Friday morning, depart Saturday night).

I just referring to Miami. Miami flights now operate TuThSu, so no long layovers.
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iadguy73
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 9):
In fact, many people on my ATL-GRU flight were going onward to ICN and NRT.

You mean GRU-ATL? Why on Earth would someone fly from ATL to Japan or Korea via Brazil?
 
B4REAL
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting Iadguy73 (Reply 15):
You mean GRU-ATL? Why on Earth would someone fly from ATL to Japan or Korea via Brazil?

Yes, sorry, good catch. It was GRU-ATL-Onward to Asia they went.
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reality
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 9):
Connections beyond key points of GRU/GIG/SCL/EZE.... If the end destination is beyond any of these points ///// As for the arrivals from US to South America, this works a lot like Europe as you arrive in the morning, and can make connections or go to directly to the arriving city.

I think this is the REAL reason....connections on both ends. Business travelers don't LIKE to travel at night. We just HAVE to. Flights leave from the US in the evening so that people can get to NY or MIA or DFW from other parts of the country during the day in order to catch the flight to South America.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:01 am

Let's look at what would happen if they had 'normal' turnaround times in South America. For purposes of this exercise, we'll use the times of the year when neither country is on daylight savings (just to keep the math simpler) and examine DL 146 and 147, the ATL-SCL-ATL service.

DL 147, as scheduled now

Depart ATL: 10:05 PM
Arrive SCL: 8:30 AM (this is a very convenient time for business travellers and tourists alike, btw, as you can easily be out of the airport by 10 and have almost a full day to do what you want.

Let's assume a 2 hour turn, so we have

DL 146 (hypothetically scheduled)

Depart SCL 10:30 AM
Arrive 9:25 PM

Take 90 minutes or so to clear customs, and you are basically unable to connect to anywhere. But DL **COULD** fix this problem. Let's try another schedule

DL 147

Depart ATL 7:05 PM
Arrive SCL 5:30 AM The 5:30 arrival is moderately inconvenient, but most connections from the west coast, even from smaller markets like SMF, are still possible, as are connections from Asia, which are actually better under this schedule.

Then, we have

DL 146

Depart SCL 7:30 AM
Arrive ATL 6:25 PM

This looks better on paper, but the reality is we haven't solved much in terms of connections. Most Europe flights are gone long before 8:00, as are the Asia flights. And while domestic connectivity is improved, a lot of folks would have to take the last flight of the day, not exactly ideal if something goes awry. So by trying this schedule, DL loses a lot of connecting possibilities (the whole reason the flight works in the first place), and this doesn't take into account the preference of high-yield passengers to travel with certain schedules.
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Rafabozzolla
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Direct

Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 7):
I just wanted to add that you can see that just about the only long flights that operate during the day are one traveling west and only because the time changes allow it.

Not really, on top of GRU-MIA and GRU-JFK daytime flights, JJ also operates MIA-GRU and JFK-GRU daylights. It has to do with plane utilization. This way JJ is able to have two flights a day to JFK and MIA with only two planes for each route, and offers both night flights and daytime flights both directions.
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:13 am

Presume the strategy is similar to AC, whereby flight timings are scheduled to capture large numbers of Asia > South America bound traffic and vice versa. This is a large (and growing) important market.
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ContinentalEWR
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:10 am

Given the limited number of flights to/from the US/Deep South America operated by non-US carriers, there is a lot of cargo hauled on the AA, UA, DL, and CO flights in these markets. This more than makes up for the lost revenue of having the aircraft parked for 10 hours at GRU, EZE, SCL, and so forth.

Some carriers also use the layovers to do maintenance and clean the aircraft.
 
jcavinato
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:23 am

Might not have any bearing to today (with the discussion above), but from the 1950s through to the 70s the real money was made by Pan Am, Braniff, Aero Peru, Avianca, Lan Chile, etc. on mail contracts. At Miami and the South American cities, those planes that flew at or near midnight got the sacks of mail that had been collected during the day. These were the money makers for the flights, because passenger loads varied so widely from day to day and week to week. Mail did not; it was high volume and even, and paid hard currency. So, for those decades, the passenger flew at the convenience of the mail volume. So, one surmise might be that what we see today is lingering from that original scheduling behavior.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
LAN hates parking planes on the ground all day, so their flights to Miami often turn around and do a daylight flight to somewhere else depending on the day.

That's always been true in MIA, but interestingly, they've stopped doing that in SCL lately. There used to be widebody flights to places like IQQ and PMC during the day... no more.
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mpdpilot
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 19):
Not really, on top of GRU-MIA and GRU-JFK daytime flights, JJ also operates MIA-GRU and JFK-GRU daylights. It has to do with plane utilization. This way JJ is able to have two flights a day to JFK and MIA with only two planes for each route, and offers both night flights and daytime flights both directions.

I was refering to the whole planet. Yes there are a few day time flights but the vast majority of the day time flights are westbound.
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Gr8Circle
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting Iadguy73 (Reply 15):
Why on Earth would someone fly from ATL to Japan or Korea via Brazil?

If he was an a.nutter... Big grin
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 9):
For example - I flew ATL-CCS once next to a gentleman who flew PTY-ATL-CCS because Copa was like $1900 for the flight and DL was like $800 or something silly like that. So you may see people doing routes like GRU-ATL-MEX simply because the price makes it worth the US customs process and extra time.

Ahh, the legendary power of the ATL hub... They say that whether you go to heaven or to the other place, you'll have to connect in ATL to get there.
 
vincewy
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Direct

Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:56 am

If a market can handle twice daily (ie: MIA-EZE, LIS-GRU, MAD-MEX, MIA-GRU), perhaps using 3 aircrafts, doing 4 segments of flights per 72 hour period would solve this issue, on each direction, you simply charge more on the evening/red eye flights. I've noticed SA's flights between LHR and CPT/JNB having the same issues.
 
B4REAL
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 26):
Ahh, the legendary power of the ATL hub... They say that whether you go to heaven or to the other place, you'll have to connect in ATL to get there.

I would not necessarily call it ATL power, just good pricing. AA @ MIA is the same thing, and is not so much the ATL-fortified hub that DL @ ATL is. However, MIA is a definite Latin American gateway - moreso that ATL.
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flylku
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:28 am

Simple: High yield business travelers like me don't want to or cannot afford to waste a day (or two) traveling.
...are we there yet?
 
rwy04lga
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:34 am

I've flown DL to both GRU and EZE and the planes stayed there all day (2 in GRU). I believe they have in-depth cleaning done on those planes down there and rotate the fleet to those destination when necessary. That way, if the planes can't generate revenue at least the airlines can save money on the cheaper cleaning labor.
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C010T3
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Vincewy (Reply 27):
If a market can handle twice daily (ie: MIA-EZE, LIS-GRU, MAD-MEX, MIA-GRU)

LIS-GRU is not a twice daily flight. TP operates only 11 LIS-GRU weekly frequencies (eff. 3rd July week), which is less than the 12 LIS-GIG weekly frequencies (eff. 3rd July week). Only if you count in the 3 LIS-OPO-GRU frequencies, it would be twice daily. But then you would have to count the 3 LIS-OPO-GIG frequencies as well, meaning that you would have forgotten LIS-GIG.
 
LuisKMIA
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:12 am

The only exception I've seen is TAM with a daytime GRU - MIA flight.

Luis
KMIA
 
LipeGIG
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:16 am

I use to believe that the only reason is just the business traveller.

Nowadays i believe that the big problem is the time zone and geography also. To fly LHR-JFK departing 2 PM you need to loose the entire morning going to the airport as well as arriving early.
You also need 7h of trip (with the advantage of time zone and geography lost only 2 hours in fact) and more 2 hours to clear immigration and to get to you final destination which means around 6 PM. Ready for a dinner ? Yes, but also tired.

South America does not allow such return on the same day as time zones are closer (nowadays GIG & GRU are only 1 hour ahead of JFK time) which means that a early morning flight (like GRU-MIA and GRU-JFK) need to depart very early in order to arrive by the first hours of night.

At this time, despite O&D markets like MIA and JFK, you cannot take advantage of connections (like DFW, ATL, IAD, ORD, IAH) and a flight arriving from Brazil at 7 PM become a problem in terms of connections.

The same happens in Brazil, although a good number of domestic flights, Brazil keep the advantage of 2 large gateways only while US keep several.

And for sure for any airline, this is a major investment as if they could use only 1 plane, the profits should be even bigger!

Felipe
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MAH4546
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Direct

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting LuisKMIA (Reply 32):
The only exception I've seen is TAM with a daytime GRU - MIA flight.

AA offers a fourth daily MIA-GRU flight during peak travel that is also daylight. TAM also has a JFK-GRU daylight.

[Edited 2007-04-30 03:27:33]
a.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 26):
Ahh, the legendary power of the ATL hub... They say that whether you go to heaven or to the other place, you'll have to connect in ATL to get there.

Its not really specific to ATL. There are alot people who travel from South America to Asia via DFW, IAH, and JFK as well as ATL.
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Cubsrule
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 35):

Its not really specific to ATL. There are alot people who travel from South America to Asia via DFW, IAH, and JFK as well as ATL.

Quite true. Arguably, though, this statement cannot be applied as easily to MIA. There are markets that can (and do) support significant daily frequencies ex-MIA, and in that case, some daylight flights may make sense. The only other city where this may be true is New York, and there it's probably untrue except to GRU and EZE.
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RJ_Delta
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
That's always been true in MIA, but interestingly, they've stopped doing that in SCL lately

Not all planes. Normally the aircrafts arrived from US early morning depart inmediatly to South American destinations.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
There used to be widebody flights to places like IQQ and PMC during the day... no more.

LAN never has used widebodies to IQQ, only LAN Cargo. Until a cuple of years ago LAN has a seasonal flight to PMC and PUQ using 1 763. This flight is not offered since 2004. During the day the planes flight to South America or return to North America, serving the other LAN's destinations.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 37):
LAN never has used widebodies to IQQ, only LAN Cargo. Until a cuple of years ago LAN has a seasonal flight to PMC and PUQ using 1 763. This flight is not offered since 2004.

In March 2005, LA was using a 763 on a PMC turn that departed PMC at 1920 (this was scheduled and bookable just like the narrowbody flights). I don't know the flight number off the top of my head (972 was around that time, but I think it was the 732 service that departed at 1945). And I'm pretty sure there was a scheduled IQQ flight in early 05 too.
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RJ_Delta
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 38):
In March 2005, LA was using a 763 on a PMC turn that departed PMC at 1920 (this was scheduled and bookable just like the narrowbody flights). I don't know the flight number off the top of my head (972 was around that time, but I think it was the 732 service that departed at 1945).

It could be, but not usual from the end of 2004.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 39):
It could be, but not usual from the end of 2004.

My friend, I saw the aircraft with my own two eyes in PMC, and nearly booked rides on the aircraft to both PMC and IQQ. I'm not sure how that qualifies as irregular...
 Confused
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lvhgel
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:12 pm

EZE-(any USA airport), I've done these routes innumerable times, in PA, EA, UA, AA, and AR. Only once I've flown during daylight, early 90s' AA EZE-MIA in their MD-11. Wonderfull flight. South America from FL36 is beautiful. Also the plane was only 40% full. In contrast, since the early 90s' any flight I've flown at night was 80% to a 100% full.
 
jfk777
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Tue May 01, 2007 3:29 am

Ita about the finances of the flight, People who fly First and Business Class want to sleep on the overnight trip. The Europe to South Africa routes have the same situation. Love to see the SAA 744 parked at the corner of LHR most of the day.
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Tue May 01, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
All airlines do this. From South America (at least from the southern cone) and Europe also. Reason is you don't lose a day sitting on the aircraft, and business travelers (high-yielding pax) pick these overnight flights over daylight ones.

AA has a midnight and a 6 a.m. departure from LIM to MIA. You can always find rooms (it seems) on that morning flight, but the night flight is always packed. On the other hand, the flights MIA to LIM leave around 6 p.m. and midnight (respectively) and they are both usually full.

FLY2LIM
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LipeGIG
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Tue May 01, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 42):
Ita about the finances of the flight, People who fly First and Business Class want to sleep on the overnight trip

Not so true. I use to fly the daylight GIG-GRU-JFK and during this month i flew it two times and both flights were full (7F 30C) on Premium classes. Of course it's easy to say as there are only two (in fact 19 weekly flights considering AA operations GRU-MIA) daily flights during the day US-Brazil but it's a growing market. I know many people that prefer to fly daylight and sleep on it's own bed (like myself).

Felipe
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DiscoverCSG
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Tue May 01, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 35):
Its not really specific to ATL. There are alot people who travel from South America to Asia via DFW, IAH, and JFK as well as ATL.

If you read my original comment - which was meant as tongue-in-cheek, by the way - you see that I was responding to the idea of flying PTY-ATL-CCS in reply 9. This has nothing to do with Asia.
 
RJ_Delta
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Tue May 01, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
My friend, I saw the aircraft with my own two eyes in PMC, and nearly booked rides on the aircraft to both PMC and IQQ. I'm not sure how that qualifies as irregular...

Ok nobody said that you didn't see the aircraft, but I tell you again: since the end 2004 is NOT USUAL the operations with 763 on domestic routes. I saw every the flight plans and flight tracker of LAN. Please! Now all 767 operates international routes and after its flight from North America the 763 returns to vía other latin american destinations or operates within L.A. cities for LA, LP or XL. And 763 to IQQ only Cargo.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US-South America, Why Overnight In Both Directions

Tue May 01, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting RJ_Delta (Reply 46):
I saw every the flight plans and flight tracker of LAN. Please!

Why all the anger? It's a minor point. And I'm not sure why we are having a problem... is there perhaps a language issue.

The schedule was something like

LV SCL 1000
AR IQQ 1200
LV IQQ 1300
AR SCL 1500

and, for the PMC flight,

LV SCL 1700
AR PMC 1830
LV PMC 1920
AR SCL 2100

Both of these operated at least from January to March '05, and possibly beyond that (I didn't do any domestic flying from the end of March until I left in May).
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