flyboy7974
Posts: 1210
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:35 pm

May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Tue May 01, 2007 7:45 pm

So, just got back from trip to Chicago this past weekend for a wedding that I was in, and, of all of our aviation group which is 90% commercial airline pilots, of a couple that fly for Alaska/Horizon, Tuesday is suppose to be the start of their "slowdown" to which pilots write up anything and everything they can find, plus, call ins are rumored to jump significantly. One friend showed us a letter that some were sending out in SEA before management got word of it and pulled one and responded hastily to the pilots protest of their contract negotiations.

Have any others heard anything such as this or what's to come? Just to make sure this topic wasn't already mentioned, I searched past Alaska Air topics and only found this mentioned on one other page, moreso an internal webpage for active commercial pilots, but didn't see this on here at all. What's the word, anybody flying AS Tues?
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3647
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Tue May 01, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Thread starter):
So, just got back from trip to Chicago this past weekend for a wedding that I was in, and, of all of our aviation group which is 90% commercial airline pilots, of a couple that fly for Alaska/Horizon, Tuesday is suppose to be the start of their "slowdown" to which pilots write up anything and everything they can find, plus, call ins are rumored to jump significantly. One friend showed us a letter that some were sending out in SEA before management got word of it and pulled one and responded hastily to the pilots protest of their contract negotiations.

Have any others heard anything such as this or what's to come? Just to make sure this topic wasn't already mentioned, I searched past Alaska Air topics and only found this mentioned on one other page, moreso an internal webpage for active commercial pilots, but didn't see this on here at all. What's the word, anybody flying AS Tues?

Nothing new here. I bet Alaska will replace it's pilots with Menzies rampers.

It is time for change at AS. The current exec team has really shown poor judgement when it comes to employee relations. The change needs to start at the top.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
socalatc
Posts: 416
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 3:01 am

Alaska pilots have really been treated well throughout the years. Yes! They did take a pay cut two years ago, however are still very high paid for the A/C type they fly. I Believe its right below WN. Although I would be pissed if I took at 20-30% cut, its not as bad as some other pilots got it after 911. AS did not lay off one single pilot, did not take away one pilots pension. My point is they have been really spoiled through out the years, management just wanted their pilots to have market fair wadges. Its childish to call in, or write up bogus MX problems because the only people that suffer are the $12 an hour CSA's that have to deal with all the angry passengers. I hope they can settle this civilly, if not there are TONS of pilots out there that would kill for an Alaska Airlines pilot job. These bitter pilots should go work for someone else if they are so up happy.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 1):
Nothing new here. I bet Alaska will replace it's pilots with Menzies rampers.

It is time for change at AS. The current exec team has really shown poor judgement when it comes to employee relations. The change needs to start at the top.
 
rwsea
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Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 2):
Its childish to call in, or write up bogus MX problems because the only people that suffer are the $12 an hour CSA's that have to deal with all the angry passengers. I hope they can settle this civilly, if not there are TONS of pilots out there that would kill for an Alaska Airlines pilot job. These bitter pilots should go work for someone else if they are so up happy.

It's very childish and unrealistic, but as we've seen time and again from unions, they have no problem acting in such a manner.
 
sea2pdx
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:26 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 2):
It is time for change at AS. The current exec team has really shown poor judgement when it comes to employee relations. The change needs to start at the top.

Care to elaborate? I guess I just have a hard time feeling sorry for the 2nd highest paid pax airline pilots in the country. Compare the hours an AS pilot flies compared to a WN pilot...interesting. If you want that huge paycheck, then you better work for it. AS has done everything in its power to not lay off people. In the end, it had to make some really tough decisions. Which is better, lay off several hundred people, or file bankruptcy, cut everyone's pay, eliminate thousands of people's pensions, and so on and so forth? AS has vowed not to go down the road of so many legacy carriers and to their credit, they haven't.

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 2):
Its childish to call in, or write up bogus MX problems because the only people that suffer are the $12 an hour CSA's that have to deal with all the angry passengers

 checkmark  Thanks for realizing that...so many people don't care to consider the ramifications of their actions.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 4:34 am

I had great sympathy for the pilots when I heard that they reverted back to 1992 wages, however with what I had to put up yesterday alone, having all of my flights go on at least :30 mx delay, having to apologize and rebook over and over, I have nothing but contempt for all of their childish actions.

The company knows that through job slowdowns, etc., any work group can literally cripple an airline, I don't know why some of the pilots feel that it is their responsibility to "show this" to management. Picket, cry, shout all you want, I'll be behind you, but when your actions start to negatively affect your fellow employees, that's when I cry fowl. We're all in this together, and if my eyes are correct, I have yet to see a pilot stand at the customer service center to apologize to his passengers and coworkers.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
as739x
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Thread starter):

Horizon is not doing a slowdown. They have nothing to do with this being a seperate company.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
socalatc
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 7:56 am

So far AS has canceled one SNA-SEA flt. Dont know why it was canceled, just know its not coming in.
 
socalatc
Posts: 416
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 9:56 am

Alaska Pilots are picketing at corporate. This is from the Alaska employee website..

Pilots picket at corporate:
Event coincides with amendable date of contract
May 1, 2007 ¯ More than 400 Alaska Airlines pilots conducted informational picketing today in front of Corporate Headquarters in Seattle and staged a rally at nearby Angle Lake Park in conjunction with the May 1 amendable date of their contract.
"Two years ago, when the arbitrator ruled on the contract, the industry and Alaska Airlines were in a much different position financially," said Captain Tom Crank, chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association Master Executive Council. "Alaska Airlines is coming off of a record-profit year and is poised to become more efficient and profitable. The pilots shared in the pain two years ago. We now expect to share in the gains."
Company and union representatives have been negotiating on a new contract since January and have tentatively agreed on 12 of 31 sections. Still to be negotiated are areas such as compensation, health benefits and retirement
 
AirlineBrat
Posts: 483
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 6):
Horizon is not doing a slowdown. They have nothing to do with this being a seperate company.

ASSFO

Great news. I am heading from ACV to SEA on Thursday and I am looking forward to my trip. Any idea on what microbrew of the month is offered this week?
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
 
flyboy7974
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 1:46 pm

Checking the 4 BUR-SEA flights, and only one actually ran quite a heavy delay, AS515, departed1219pm rather then the scheduled 1013am. The other 3 flights ran ontime and even arrived early.
 
Alias1024
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 2:30 pm

As was stated, today was the informational picket in front of Angle Lake. Alaska pilots were there, and Horizon pilots were invited to attend as well, even though they are not part of the same union. FYI, Horizon pilots are in negotiations as well, although they are not as far along as the Alaska group.

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 2):
Yes! They did take a pay cut two years ago, however are still very high paid for the A/C type they fly. I Believe its right below WN.

12 year WN Captain : $198 per hour
12 year WN First Officer: $131 per hour

12 year AS Captain: $154 per hour
12 year AS First Officer: $97 per hour

Those look really close  Yeah sure

AS pilots got screwed by an arbitrator who understood nothing about the airline business. The judge used airlines like B6 and UA for comparison. Well, B6 was only a few years old, so that was a bad airline to choose. Pilots don't expect high wages at a startup like JetBlue. They are willing to sacrifice higher wages for quicker upgrade. Alaska pilots aren't going to get a quick upgrade, so they expect better pay to compensate for the extra time in the right seat. United pilots have opportunities for career progression to larger aircraft that pay higher wages, therefore pilots are willing to accept lower rates on smaller aircraft because they know they can make it up later in their careers. Alaska pilots don't have that opportunity.

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 5):
I had great sympathy for the pilots when I heard that they reverted back to 1992 wages, however with what I had to put up yesterday alone, having all of my flights go on at least :30 mx delay, having to apologize and rebook over and over, I have nothing but contempt for all of their childish actions.

How do you know this was related to a slowdown and not simply bad luck? Aircraft do break from time to time.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
DCrawley
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 2:52 pm

I heard that there were no actual slowdowns today from the statistics reviewed by mid-afternoon. I wish many of my friends and the rest of the AS pilot group the best of luck!
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
 
sea2pdx
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:26 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
Those look really close

Then by all means, AS should cut reserved seats, Board Rooms, First Class, an award-winning Frequent Flyer program, all in the name of higher paychecks for its pilots.

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 8):
Captain Tom Crank, chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association Master Executive Council. "Alaska Airlines is coming off of a record-profit year and is poised to become more efficient and profitable. The pilots shared in the pain two years ago. We now expect to share in the gains."

Do AS pilots not partake in profit-sharing? If not, is that the company's fault, or the union's?

I guess for me it all comes down to what I find myself saying a lot - if you don't like the job, then leave. If WN pays so much more and the money is whats really important to you, then leave, go work for WN, I'm pretty sure they're hiring pilots.
 
Alias1024
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting Sea2Pdx (Reply 13):
Then by all means, AS should cut reserved seats, Board Rooms, First Class, an award-winning Frequent Flyer program, all in the name of higher paychecks for its pilots.

Huh???

I was simply pointing out that AS pilots aren't "right below WN" as Socalatc said.

Quoting Sea2Pdx (Reply 13):
Do AS pilots not partake in profit-sharing? If not, is that the company's fault, or the union's?

They do, but do you think those profit-sharing checks will come even close to covering the 32% pay cut Alaska pilots took?
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
sea2pdx
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 14):
I was simply pointing out that AS pilots aren't "right below WN" as Socalatc said.

You're right, its not right below WN pilots.


Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 14):
They do, but do you think those profit-sharing checks will come even close to covering the 32% pay cut Alaska pilots took?

Its all relative. I didn't imply that profit-sharing was going to make up the difference. What I was implying was that AS does make a point of sharing its gains with its employees.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
AS pilots got screwed by an arbitrator who understood nothing about the airline business. The judge used airlines like B6 and UA for comparison.

So who exactly should AS have been compared to? AS has always been in a league of their own, so finding comparable airlines is difficult. But when AS 737 12 year Captains are making more than CO and DL 737 Captains and NW, UA and US 757/767 12 year Captains, I think you'll find its going to be difficult to garner much sympathy. Those guys took pay cuts too. Being #2 sucks when there's only 2 airlines, but reality is that even with the 32% paycut, AS pilots have a lot more going for them than most airline pilots.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 3:48 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
How do you know this was related to a slowdown and not simply bad luck? Aircraft do break from time to time.

I'm well aware of that. I work with the MD-Maybe every day and see it happen on quite a few flights each day. How do I know that it was simply not bad luck? Becuase I know the captains I had to work with and I know their reputations.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
socalatc
Posts: 416
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 5:13 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
Alaska pilots don't have that opportunity.

Sure they do, go find a better job. FEDEX and UPS are always hiring pilots.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 14):
was simply pointing out that AS pilots aren't "right below WN" as Socalatc said.

So where do they fall? They are below WN but are they not above B6, UA, CO,FL ext for type of aircraft they operate?

It was Alaska Pilots who were greedy and wanted an arbitrator to fix everything for them, the company came to the union with plenty of offers that did not involve a 30% pay cut but they were greedy and this is what they got. Its all about market fair wadges, all their union groups are either at market wadges or a little above. I know the importance for getting paid for the job that you do, I flew for years! However, I also know the importance of longevity of a company, and I think Alaska is doing whatever they need to go to stay around for another 75 years.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Wed May 02, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
AS pilots got screwed by an arbitrator who understood nothing about the airline business.

Incorrect. AS pilots argued for the right to have an arbitrator come in and "fix" things in their last contract, because at that time wages were going up and up and the company would drag its feet during negotiations. The idea was that on the NEXT contract, an arbitrator would come in and settle things if the company and union couldn't strike a deal - and again, since wages were always going up, it would only be a question of how much of a raise they'd get once the arbitrator ruled. Right?

Oops.

They never DREAMED it would work both ways though - so after 9/11, once every airline out there began slashing wages, AS pilots suddenly found themselves in the rather unenviable position of being relatively "overpaid" compared to their peers flying similar equipment at other carriers - AND with a contract that was now amendable. AS asked for cuts to bring their pilots in line with their competitors, along with productivity increases. When negotiations went nowhere, in came the arbitrator - as mandated by the pilots' contract language.

As they say, be careful what you wish for. The rest is history.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
Alaska pilots aren't going to get a quick upgrade, so they expect better pay to compensate for the extra time in the right seat.

Of course the flipside to this argument is that if the pilots give the company more productivity in exchange for higher wages per block hour - essentially a cost-neutral contract - there would be more money for AS to invest in converting dozens of 737-800 options and purchase rights into firm orders.

Which ultimately translates into quicker upgrades to Captain.

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 17):
It was Alaska Pilots who were greedy and wanted an arbitrator to fix everything for them, the company came to the union with plenty of offers that did not involve a 30% pay cut but they were greedy and this is what they got.

 checkmark 

And management, realizing they got even more than what they initially asked for, offered to toss out the arbitrator's solution in favor of a flat 20% cut across the board on a 5 year deal instead of a 2 year one. The pilots refused, and opted to take the much larger cut as a 2 year hit from the arbitrator and called it a day.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
flysherwood
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Thu May 03, 2007 1:10 am

It never fails to amaze me that of all of the unions to pull this type of nonsense, the pilots. ARE you NOT the HIGHEST paid employees at the airlines. I have a very good friend who happened to have been Chairman of an Asian Airline in the 90's tell me of a fellow state owned airline Chairman from Europe who, when he was appointed, was asked by the head of Human Resources what salary he was expecting. He told them to pay him $1.00 more per annum then the highest paid employee. At the end of the first month he received his first paycheck. He called down to the Human Resources Director and asked "Who the hell are we paying this much money to?!?!" the reply came "...747 pilots!" True story.  Smile
 
EIPremier
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Thu May 03, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 16):
I'm well aware of that. I work with the MD-Maybe every day and see it happen on quite a few flights each day. How do I know that it was simply not bad luck? Becuase I know the captains I had to work with and I know their reputations.

I have been suspicious that certain pilots have a tendency to look for any little item that needs fixing, at least since the pay cuts went into effect. It seems like those MDs take more than their fare share of maintenance delays.

However, after May 1 and the first part of May 2, I wouldn't say there is clear evidence of a slowdown. According to flightstats, 82% of AS arrivals were on-time yesterday, so that seems pretty normal.

[Edited 2007-05-02 21:02:45]
 
flyboy97502
Posts: 61
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Thu May 03, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 5):
I have yet to see a pilot stand at the customer service center to apologize to his passengers and coworkers.

Well my experience comes from flying AS sister company QX and also just as starting as a CSA for QX.... I have had many times when a Mx issue comes up that the Captain will come into the boarding area and explain the situation, or will be waiting right there to talk with anyone who has a question about things going on. I tip my hat  bigthumbsup  to them because I know that AS or QX pilots care for their passengers! Its unfortunate that you haven't had the opportunity to see this first hand.
SKYHIGH Airlines- It's important that we get the SkyHigh message out there. That message? Thank you for your money.
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Thu May 03, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting Flyboy97502 (Reply 21):
Well my experience comes from flying AS sister company QX and also just as starting as a CSA for QX.... I have had many times when a Mx issue comes up that the Captain will come into the boarding area and explain the situation, or will be waiting right there to talk with anyone who has a question about things going on. I tip my hat bigthumbsup to them because I know that AS or QX pilots care for their passengers! Its unfortunate that you haven't had the opportunity to see this first hand.

...you must be new.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Thu May 03, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting EIPremier (Reply 20):
have been suspicious that certain pilots have a tendency to look for any little item that needs fixing, at least since the pay cuts went into effect. It seems like those MDs take more than their fare share of maintenance delays.

However, after May 1 and the first part of May 2, I wouldn't say there is clear evidence of a slowdown. According to flightstats, 82% of AS arrivals were on-time yesterday, so that seems pretty normal.

May 1st and 2nd were just fine, and it's honestly not the entire pilot group as a whole (I realize my first post makes it sound as if I was blaming them all), it's individual pilots who decide to take it upon themselves to "stick it to Corporate" for whom I have those feelings. We all know who they are, we all cringe when we pull them up on the manifest, and then we all sit back and wait (after boarding has finished) while they call maintenance out to "check out a bug"...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
kbfispotter
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 5:56 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Thu May 03, 2007 6:51 pm

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 22):
...you must be new.

I resent that statement as a QX employee... I have seen that too... I am a QX mechanic in SEA and have wittnessed that as well. In fact, the majority of the employees of the airline realize that with out the pax, they would not have a job, and thus they will go out of their way to help them. I have even seen flight crew come out and help the CSA's load baggage when they are running late. How many other airlines will one see this kind of customer service at?

I do not feel sorry for AS pilots one bit. They got themselves into this mess, and they need to just deal with it.

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
F9Animal
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Thu May 03, 2007 8:18 pm

Quoting Sea2Pdx (Reply 13):
Then by all means, AS should cut reserved seats, Board Rooms, First Class, an award-winning Frequent Flyer program, all in the name of higher paychecks for its pilots.

I am sure the guys sitting behind those nice desks and collecting those big fat checks have considered many of the above options. Heck, they have done a fine job of squeezing the employees paychecks, contracting out the work, and cutting costs in every possible way. They have also done a fine job of making AS into a common airline. AS was once upon a time an airline that differed from the rest. Today, they are just a "regular" airline. I sure miss the old Alaska!!!!!

I support the pilots.

Quoting Flyboy97502 (Reply 21):
Well my experience comes from flying AS sister company QX and also just as starting as a CSA for QX.... I have had many times when a Mx issue comes up that the Captain will come into the boarding area and explain the situation, or will be waiting right there to talk with anyone who has a question about things going on. I tip my hat bigthumbsup to them because I know that AS or QX pilots care for their passengers! Its unfortunate that you haven't had the opportunity to see this first hand.

And QX has class. Besides the newer aircraft, QX has maintained a status as one of the top regional carriers. The guys and gals running the show at QX are doing a fine job. Maybe they should replace the execs at AS.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 25):
I am sure the guys sitting behind those nice desks and collecting those big fat checks have considered many of the above options. Heck, they have done a fine job of squeezing the employees paychecks, contracting out the work, and cutting costs in every possible way. They have also done a fine job of making AS into a common airline. AS was once upon a time an airline that differed from the rest. Today, they are just a "regular" airline. I sure miss the old Alaska!!!!!

I support the pilots.

You wouldn't happen to be a pilot, would you?  Smile You are forgetting about a small teenie weenie airline by the name of Southwest that came blazing into the Pacific NW that changed the nature of the airline business here. I am not saying that management hasn't screwed up a lot of things but cutting costs became a necessity of the competitive situation AS found themselves to be in.

I happen to think AS is a very good airline. A hell of a lot better than Southwest!!!
 
F9Animal
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Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 26):
You wouldn't happen to be a pilot, would you? Smile You are forgetting about a small teenie weenie airline by the name of Southwest that came blazing into the Pacific NW that changed the nature of the airline business here. I am not saying that management hasn't screwed up a lot of things but cutting costs became a necessity of the competitive situation AS found themselves to be in.

I happen to think AS is a very good airline. A hell of a lot better than Southwest!!!

I agree with you 110%. Alaska Airlines is a good airline. I have always supported the employees of the airline. I think they have some of the best employees in the industry. Southwest certainly has nothing on AS in SEA or PDX. I just get beyond sickened when I see the execs at AS continue to slash away at employees, and slash away at service. The execs have slashed so much, that the core values and mission that Alaska was founded on, has become voided.

I agree that they had to change certain aspects of the way they do business in order to compete with the low cost enviornment, but the execs slashed in areas that seriously hurt the image of the airline. The execs are to blame for the current state of the airline, and they are to blame for the losses. The execs are still aiming for the employees pocketbooks, which I think they have gone a bit too far in. I really think a change in leadership in the exec team would really help.

I stand by the pilots, and all of the union employees at Alaska. The unions are the only thing protecting them from the machetes that the exec team seems to like to swing.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
F9Animal
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 3:16 am

And one other thing. If it was not for the unions in the airline industry, the employees of most airlines would be making Mcdonalds wages. It seems that the unions are the only defense left for the employees wallets and liveleyhood.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
flysherwood
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 28):
And one other thing. If it was not for the unions in the airline industry, the employees of most airlines would be making Mcdonalds wages. It seems that the unions are the only defense left for the employees wallets and liveleyhood.

You may be totally right here but I do have one question. Are the employees of Southwest unionized?
 
F9Animal
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 29):
You may be totally right here but I do have one question. Are the employees of Southwest unionized?

Great question. Yes, they sure are. In fact, they are some of the highest and topped out in the industry. I was shocked myself, but they are very heavy in the union. Just about every function from CSA's, Flight Attendants, Pilots, and Ramp are union.

Kind of weird, but WN has it all, including profits. Certainly not my favorite airline to fly on, but if they have the lowest fare, I am flying them!  Smile
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 27):
Alaska Airlines is a good airline. I have always supported the employees of the airline. I think they have some of the best employees in the industry.

 checkmark 

I'm bookmarking this so I can refer back to it every time you slam AS from now on....  wink 

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 29):
You may be totally right here but I do have one question. Are the employees of Southwest unionized?


Great question. Yes, they sure are. In fact, they are some of the highest and topped out in the industry.

They've also got a very big cost problem that needs to be addressed, and it may ultimately result in the biggest labor/management friction WN has seen to date. Hopefully not, but it's certainly a problem on the horizon.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
sea2pdx
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:26 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 28):
And one other thing. If it was not for the unions in the airline industry, the employees of most airlines would be making Mcdonalds wages. It seems that the unions are the only defense left for the employees wallets and liveleyhood.

This is what gets me everytime about the union argument. Its like someone was holding a gone to an unwilling stranger's head telling them that they were going to take the job and they were going to accept the pay, albeit the pay was a mystery, only to be revealed after the poor stranger's soul was sold to the devil.

Here's the deal: When you apply for an airline, you are asked, "Are you willing to accept a starting wage of $X.XX/hour?" If you answer yes, then don't bitch, and if its not enough, then walk away.

To draw a comparison, look at QX CSAs - on average, they're some of the highest paid regional airline employees out there, higher even than Skywest, and not a single one of them is in a union. Oh, and we all just got pay raises. Damn, where are those unions when you need them?
 
EIPremier
Posts: 1462
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 8:17 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 23):
We all know who they are, we all cringe when we pull them up on the manifest, and then we all sit back and wait (after boarding has finished) while they call maintenance out to "check out a bug"...

What's unfortunate is that most passengers won't know that there are some pilots out there looking for anything to write up, and will just assume the company is skimping on aircraft maintenance.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3647
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 31):

checkmark

I'm bookmarking this so I can refer back to it every time you slam AS from now on.... wink

LMFAO!!! I do have a big heart for Alaska. I just can't stand the way it is being run at the top levels. It is sooooo hard to watch such a great airline become "the average" airline. I have said it a million times though, the employees of Alaska are the best. I just have no love for the execs of the airline.

Quoting Sea2Pdx (Reply 32):
This is what gets me everytime about the union argument. Its like someone was holding a gone to an unwilling stranger's head telling them that they were going to take the job and they were going to accept the pay, albeit the pay was a mystery, only to be revealed after the poor stranger's soul was sold to the devil.

Here's the deal: When you apply for an airline, you are asked, "Are you willing to accept a starting wage of $X.XX/hour?" If you answer yes, then don't bitch, and if its not enough, then walk away.

To draw a comparison, look at QX CSAs - on average, they're some of the highest paid regional airline employees out there, higher even than Skywest, and not a single one of them is in a union. Oh, and we all just got pay raises. Damn, where are those unions when you need them?

I agree, but why not have a job that offers you a good future? If it was not for the unions in the airline industry, the employees would be making $9.00 an hour for the rest of their lives. I went to an airline to have a career, and I had no gun at my head. I was attracted to the benefits, and a top out pay of over $20.00 an hour.

I think QX pilots and FA's are union??
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
ASAFA
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Socalatc (Reply 17):
Sure they do, go find a better job. FEDEX and UPS are always hiring pilots.

Excuse you. I am so sick of people saying "if you don't like it quit and find another job"

I'M SORRY, but it doesn't work that way. Why don't you quit your job and uproot your family and start from the bottom of the pay scale again?
That's about as intelligent as telling someone to move to another country if they don't agree with their own government's leadership.

Why don't we talk about the fact that there is an epidemic of wage cutting and this ridiculous idea that you MUST sacrifice (anything and everything) to save your company has taken root. I'm sorry but that shouldn't be the way a business has to operate. Henry Ford made sure his employees were paid enough to allow them to afford the cars they were producing and guess what, IT WORKED. Now look at Ford, they have outsourced their manufacturing and are still losing billions, and their laid off workers can no longer afford to buy their products. Is that the answer? Today most airline employees couldn't afford to buy a revenue ticket on their own carrier, should the pilots be next?

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 19):
ARE you NOT the HIGHEST paid employees at the airlines.

NO, they're not.

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 24):
I do not feel sorry for AS pilots one bit. They got themselves into this mess, and they need to just deal with it.

How exactly did they do that? Their salary was dictated for them.

Imagine you just bought a house based on your current income, now imagine you lose 1/3 of that income, but your expenses don't change. What would you do?

Oh that's right, you would "just deal with it."
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3647
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 35):
How exactly did they do that? Their salary was dictated for them.

Imagine you just bought a house based on your current income, now imagine you lose 1/3 of that income, but your expenses don't change. What would you do?

Oh that's right, you would "just deal with it."

Amen. That is exactly to the point, and is what I have been trying to type on my keyboard, but could not get it out like you did.

It is just not a problem at AS, it is a problem throughout the industry. I really feel bad for those that have to take paycuts. A voluntary paycut is one thing, but these are pretty much forced these days. I got really pissed when I got a 2% raise last month, but in reality, I would have been furious if they would have taken 2% of my wages "to save the company".
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
F9Animal
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 1:52 pm

Example:

Take home pay every month: $2,000.00

Bills and house payment: $1,400.00

The rest goes to food, gas, and other expenses. That leaves $600 to live on for a month. $150.00 a week.

Now the airline suddenly comes out and snatches 20% of your pay. Suddenly your out $400.00. That money obviously comes out of your food, gas, and other expenses. Now you only have $200.00 a month to live on, meaning only $50.00 a week. You better hope you don't have more than one mouth to feed, and you better change your lifestyle really quick. You will likely have to find a cheaper place to live, and sell the car. Is that dedication?

While the above example is not by any means an AS pilots wages, it certainly would change a AS pilots way of life. The above example is exactly what every airline employee faces these days. Very sad.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
ASAFA
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 34):
I do have a big heart for Alaska. I just can't stand the way it is being run at the top levels. It is sooooo hard to watch such a great airline become "the average" airline. I have said it a million times though, the employees of Alaska are the best. I just have no love for the execs of the airline.

Could not agree with you more. Welcome to my RU list.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 36):
It is just not a problem at AS, it is a problem throughout the industry

Exactly, and it needs to STOP.

It's not just a problem in the aviation industry either.

I have to say that AS wouldn't be cutting anything if they couldn't justify it with "well, every other airline has cut X or Y so we need to as well to keep our costs in line." As the old saying goes -- don't hate the player, hate the game.
 
kbfispotter
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 5:56 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 35):
How exactly did they do that? Their salary was dictated for them.

I should not of said anything to that comment, as I was ill informed...

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3647
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RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 38):
Exactly, and it needs to STOP.

It's not just a problem in the aviation industry either.

I have to say that AS wouldn't be cutting anything if they couldn't justify it with "well, every other airline has cut X or Y so we need to as well to keep our costs in line." As the old saying goes -- don't hate the player, hate the game.



Quoting ASAFA (Reply 38):
Could not agree with you more. Welcome to my RU list.

Thank you ASAFA!

You are also very right about this not being just a problem just in the aviation industry. IIRC, Circut City just fired all of its higher paid employees. What makes me sick is that they offered them to reapply with the company in like 30 days, and start at minimum wage wages. I see this trend in so many companies now.

I hope the pilots for AS come out of this with higher wages. If they lose, it will set a table that AS execs could use when it comes time to negotiate with the FA's, CSA's, and so on.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13438
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Fri May 04, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 38):
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 36):
It is just not a problem at AS, it is a problem throughout the industry

Exactly, and it needs to STOP.

I agree. And I mean that.


Unfortunately that means airlines have to either get customers to voluntarily pay much more for their tickets than they do today, or somehow hope the price of oil retreats south of $40.00/bbl. Until then, airlines have to be smarter about where they can cut costs while avoiding hacking into wages or their product.

But having one workgroup (pilots, in this case) making more with less overall productivity than their peers at competitors wasn't sustainable.

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 38):
I have to say that AS wouldn't be cutting anything if they couldn't justify it with "well, every other airline has cut X or Y so we need to as well to keep our costs in line."

It's only logical to try and find ways to keep your costs in linet when you see that your costs are higher than everyone else AND you're not getting a revenue premium to offset that gap. Sometimes that means making difficult, unpopular decisions.

Or you can do it the quick easy way by ignoring the cost problems entirely until it's too late - like UA, DL, NW and US - and artificially lower your costs through bankruptcy, where you get to conveniently wipe away promises to employees and creditors alike.

Thankfully, AS has decided the quick, easy way isn't for them.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
socalatc
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:16 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Sat May 05, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 35):
Excuse you. I am so sick of people saying "if you don't like it quit and find another job"

I'M SORRY, but it doesn't work that way. Why don't you quit your job and uproot your family and start from the bottom of the pay scale again?
That's about as intelligent as telling someone to move to another country if they don't agree with their own government's leadership.

Well, your incorrect. I flew for years, I stated to dislike my job did not think I was getting paid enough for what I did, so I quit and went to the FAA. Im not going to bitch and moan because its NOT going to do anything. AS pilots can walk all they want up and down a street, have sick outs, write up bullshit MX problems, but in the end its the company that has the upper hand. And if they play these childish games, the company is going to be more unwilling to bargain.
 
sea2pdx
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:26 pm

RE: May 1 On Alaska Airlines

Sat May 05, 2007 11:35 am

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 35):
Henry Ford made sure his employees were paid enough to allow them to afford the cars they were producing and guess what, IT WORKED. Now look at Ford, they have outsourced their manufacturing and are still losing billions, and their laid off workers can no longer afford to buy their products. Is that the answer? Today most airline employees couldn't afford to buy a revenue ticket on their own carrier, should the pilots be next?

You're right, those assembly line workers ended up making enough money to afford vehicles much nicer than the ones they were producing.

I guess I missed your point though...You're right, most airline employees can't afford to buy revenue tickets on their own airline, but you're insinuating that we can't let it get that bad for the pilots? Its still okay that they *can* afford to, but no one else can? I guess the solution is clear - keep pilot salaries the same, raise CSA salaries so that they can afford to buy confirmed tickets as well, or at least slash fares across the board so that everyone wins. The planes are packed every flight and airline employees travel confirmed - no more getting stranded in airports overnight!

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 34):
I think QX pilots and FA's are union??

 checkmark 

Quoting ASAFA (Reply 38):
I have to say that AS wouldn't be cutting anything if they couldn't justify it with "well, every other airline has cut X or Y so we need to as well to keep our costs in line." As the old saying goes -- don't hate the player, hate the game.

Or you can hate the Capitalist economy the game is played in. What would you have suggested to keep costs in line? Do you not agree that costs needed to be reduced and dramatically? So say the airline didn't cut pay at all, to anyone, how should they have done it? Apart from pay, what have they done that was wrong? In a perfect world, Alaska would have remained unchanged, just up'd fares $50/pop to cover the rising fuel/security/aircraft maintenance/airport leases and rents, etc. etc. and consumers would have paid it because they just love Alaska so much they're willing to pay that much of a premium to fly them. In reality, if WN is $5 cheaper with twice the stops, people will buy a ticket on WN. Whats the answer here? I'm hearing all the complaining everyone has made, and the talk of all the mistakes and bad decisions Alaska has made, but how about some solutions?

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