brettdespain
Posts: 126
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Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 1:28 am

First let me say that I know the following email that I sent to Delta's CEO Jerry Grinstein will have no effect.

However, like a prophet crying in the wilderness, at least I will have "had my say".

And if more employess, passengers and concerned people took the time to "have their say", perhaps we could effect some change just like the "keep Delta, my Delta" campaign.

I've no doubt that many that read the following email will completely disagree with me. Many of those will be the typical a.net forum posters who respond negatively to each and every thread. It turns out many of those have little airline experience other than what they read here. If you are one of them, please read the following with an open mind, think about what your going to say and then by all means say it, whether good or bad, with some taste please.

I offer this to you as one employee who is proud to work for Delta but does not relish in the new brand that we have just taken public. It is one person's insight as to what could and in my opinion should have been. If you feel the same, may I suggest a letter to Jerry Grinstein at:

Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Attn: Jerry Grinstein, CEO.
P.O. Box 20706
Atlanta, Georgia 30320-6001


Good luck to you all and thanks for reading this.

- Brett


Email I sent to Jerry Grinstein, May, 2, 2007


Thank you for your years of service to Western and Delta. My
father flew for Western/Delta for 33 years. I have been here 10.
My uncle was also a Delta pilot.

I am really disappointed in the new livery and especially the new
widget. People are already calling us CITCO Air and the "Official
Airline of Hugo Chavez". In my informal searching of the internet
blogs, people are 10 to 1 against the new livery. I hope they fly
us anyway.

Under Ron Allen we were told that the widget was taken off of the
tail because the public relations firm that we employed then said
that a company's logo must never be distorted or skewed. We paid
them 2 million dollars for that advice.

Then under Leo Mullins we skewed the widget by making it frown, but
at least we got a good looking airplane.

Now we've paid more millions to another firm to put the widget back
on the tail, this time not only skewed, but not entirely visible!

So please tell me, why is the adivce back in 1997 that we paid
millions for, not applicable today?

You brought back the old widget and we were all grateful. Now
you've done it one worse than Leo by making the widget all red.

As a loyal Delta employee with very long Delta roots, I'm really
dissapointed. When times were and are bad, the employees could
always look to the proud widget and re-double our efforts to make
it a symbol of strength and quality once more. Now, who are we
fighting for Delta or CITCO?

You want to keep the new paint job because it's cheaper, fine by
me. Just put the red and blue traditional widget back on the
tail. Think how many employees you could make happy by just that
one simple thing! And what better way to tell the rest of the
world that "Were Back!"?

And before you write me back and tell me that we need a new icon to
symbolize a new emergence for Delta, let me just say that's crap.
People, including our passengers, have a stong allegiance to the
past and to brands that they know and trust. Why do you think Coca-
Cola's trademark has been untouched for so long?

You took half my pay, must you take my widget too?

I'm asking you to reconsider.

Best Regards,

Brett Despain
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phxplanes
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 1:44 am

I dont know what upper management looks at (as far as a.net and other similar public sources) but they have to know that most people dislike the new livery.
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
People are already calling us CITCO Air and the "Official
Airline of Hugo Chavez".

It's Citgo, not CITCO.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 1:55 am

I don't get why some people are so worked up about the new '"widget". It's just a logo for Christ's sake! It will make absolutely no difference in the quality of your flight, the size of your paycheck, or the rate of global warming! If you don't like the new logo, don't worry..It will change again in a few years.

There are alot of better things to worry or complain about than the color of a "widget".

Thus ends my rant return.
 
PExDCA
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 1:56 am

Well written (except it is CITGO, not CITCO). However, I think it would take a HUGE backlash for anything to be changed at this point. A lot was spent on this design and the roll out fanfare and to reverse it would be costly. I give you credit though for having the courage of your convictions to send such a letter.

As a marketing guy, I agree with your thoughts regarding true icons like the Coca-Cola logo. In the airline realm I would agree that the DL Widget comes close to that status. I personally do not like the new livery (and have said that on other threads) and I especially don't like it when any company tries to "modernize" a classic logo just for the sake of "sending a message" in the marketplace. The idea that modernizing the logo to send a post-bankruptcy message is short-sighted since the significance of a post-bankruptcy message to the world will have less and less meaning the further DL travels away from April 30, 2007. There are ways to modernize while preserving DL's rich heritage, it think these folks missed the mark. Keep in mind that there is a reason why over a decade after it flew (in more than a token way) that the Pan Am blue globe logo is still one of the most recognizable logos in the world.
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
When times were and are bad, the employees could
always look to the proud widget

You need a widget to feel pride?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 2):
It's Citgo, not CITCO.

What's with Citgo....? Why is DL now "Citgo air"?

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
Think how many employees you could make happy by just that
one simple thing!

Do you really think that would make employees happy? Lemme give you a hint. Airline employees are a lot like your characterization of a.netters:

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
who respond negatively to each and every thread. It turns out many of those have little airline experience other than what they read here
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
rikkus67
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:21 am

Brett,

I have to be one to agree with your email. I will now refer to DELTA as "tartan-tail", as the widget has been enlarged too much along with the skewing, to make it easily recognizable.

KLFLFC (can't remember his exact nic) had the best solution to the new widget by reintroducing the full tail widget... it was a beautiful rendition of the new scheme, and I wish it was adopted...realizing the proposal was too late....
I understand the need for a simplified scheme, however the butchered widget just doesn't cut it.

In regards to changing a logo's design, Air Canada suceessfully did so with the maple leaf. The important thing to remember is that the maple leaf has always been in the design (originating with Trans-Canada Air Lines), whether stylized or more realistic...and each iteration progressed from the one before.



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I am not as concerned about the colour of the widget...as the entire new look is STILL red,white and blue.
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brettdespain
Posts: 126
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:25 am

Well it looks like the attack dogs are out. Again, if you disagree, just say so. No need to get nasty or personal.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
You need a widget to feel pride?

I said the widget was proud, not that the employees pride was a result of the widget.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
Do you really think that would make employees happy?

Yes. At least happier. We've had very little to be happy about over the last 19 months. And believe it or not, many airline employees look at the livery on the planes as a representation of who the company is. In my estimation and many others, we have abandoned a very recognizable symbol. You need to walk a mile in another man's shoes before you understand him.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
What's with Citgo....? Why is DL now "Citgo air"?

Look at the two corporate icons and tell me they don't look quite a bit alike.
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emseeeye
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):

Pardon me for coming across a little strong but who really gives a flip? Come on... dont you think this letter is a little over the top? DL didnt "kill" the widget. They just turned it sidewards. If you really spent the time to write this letter I guarantee it will either:

1. Be ignored and filed in a trash can,
2. Responded by some form letter from DL public relations dept stating something about the "new Delta" and how this livery represnts change... blah blah...

Personally I like it. Not my choice of liveries but its growing on me. Its paint... nothing to get worked up about.
 
brettdespain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 3):
I don't get why some people are so worked up about the new '"widget". It's just a logo

You're right, it is. Just like Coke is just a soft drink, but their corporate symbol means something to the people who work for Coca-Cola. Same with the Delta widget. Unless you've ever been associated with company that has a logo that is instantly recognizable, this discussion may be hard to understand. But, employees recognize that symbol as a part of who they are in the company they work for. I feel disenfranchised, as do many others.

True it will not affect my flying, but the new widget does little heal the wounds of huge pay cuts and a very long 19 months.
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N766UA
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 1):
but they have to know that most people dislike the new livery.

Most people on airliners.net do not = most people to the airlines. They didn't just wing a new livery out there and hope for the best. That's the one their test groups liked, that's the one they wanted to represent the new Delta, and alot of people like it! Just because you guys can never be pleased doesn't mean "most people dislike the new livery." Get over it already!
This Website Censors Me
 
brettdespain
Posts: 126
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
Pardon me for coming across a little strong but who really gives a flip? Come on... dont you think this letter is a little over the top?

Yeah, it is. But like anything else in life that you really care about, little things make a difference. I've wanted to be an airline pilot since I was 4. And, I'll admit that I'm taken it too personally. However, I'm tired of people caring very little about anything. I care about Delta and the image we present, and personally I think the new brand sucks.

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
They just turned it sidewards.

Turned it sidward, made it all red in color and you can't see all of it on the tail. More than just a minor change.

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
If you really spent the time to write this letter

Questioning my integrity, are we? Yes I sent the letter, I do what I say I'll do.

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
I guarantee it will either:

1. Be ignored and filed in a trash can,
2. Responded by some form letter from DL public relations dept stating something about the "new Delta" and how this livery represnts change... blah blah...

Probaly so, but I've had my say just like you had yours.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 2):
It's Citgo, not CITCO.

Thanks man. Sorry, my bad.
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LawnDart
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:52 am

Brett,

Take a look at the InfoXchange on the (internal) Deltanet...under "Current Issues" there is a thread titled

"Our New Brand: From The Source".

It was started by the General Manager of Brand Identity at Delta Air Lines, and he gives a lengthy explanation of the process of the new Delta brand.

I must give him credit for identifying himself and posting what he did.

It also smells a little bit like damage control, as he initiated that thread in response to a post from an individual expressing sentiments very close to yours. There is a recent (lengthy) reply (#11, addressed to the GM) by that same individual in the "Our New Brand: From the Source" thread. I hope you'll take the time to read it.

In the meantime, thank you for writing to Mr. Grinstein, and welcome to my respected users list.

I LOVE YOU MAN !!!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:54 am

a small shift in color can make a huge difference and help something new/different scream Delta....

this is something i threw together last night while I couldn't sleep at 3am, as I was (sadly enough) thinking about DL and the marketing...



[Edited 2007-05-02 19:57:21]
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
brettdespain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 10):
Just because you guys can never be pleased doesn't mean "most people dislike the new livery." Get over it already!

Temper, temper.

Interesting how all you guys who try to attack other people on the threads are so young. Try to control your rage, you'll live longer.

If you like the new livery, just say so. We can agree to disagree without all the epithets.
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brettdespain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 6):
In regards to changing a logo's design, Air Canada suceessfully did so with the maple leaf. The important thing to remember is that the maple leaf has always been in the design (originating with Trans-Canada Air Lines), whether stylized or more realistic...and each iteration progressed from the one before.

Excellent post and a very interesting comment.

Yours is an example of how to post another point of view without getting nasty. Well done.
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LawnDart
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:02 am

Okay, in defense of the Original Poster:

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
who really gives a flip?

Thousands of Delta employees, that's who. Threads on the internal Delta website regarding the new look and the new logo (it's not the widget) have generated more activity than any other thread on there...

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
DL didnt "kill" the widget.

No, but they stabbed it a couple of times and left it laying on its side bleeding...

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
it will either:

1. Be ignored and filed in a trash can,
2. Responded by some form letter from DL public relations dept stating something about the "new Delta" and how this livery represnts change... blah blah...

Managerial responses at Delta are not uncommon. It may not necessarily by from the freakin' CEO, but the original poster may very well get a response.

If he doesn't, my feeling is its because management at present is buried under a pile of negative correspondence they've received from employees regarding the new look...
 
777captain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:03 am

The Coca-Cola logo.
The Nike "swoosh."
The McDonald's Arches.

These are symbols that are recognized by about 4 billion people on the planet. The Delta Widget ranked only behind AA for brand recognition in the industry. Good post Brett.
 
brettdespain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 12):
It also smells a little bit like damage control, as he initiated that thread in response to a post from an individual expressing sentiments very close to yours.

I think the post you're referring and the Delta info exchange is mine. I've been stirring the water today...I'll have to take a look at the new thread that you mentioned.

NO, YOU'RE THE MAN! And welcome to my list.
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LawnDart
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
a small shift in color can make a huge difference and help something new/different scream Delta....

Alitalia744, beautiful renditions, but the point of the original poster's letter to Mr. Grinstein was for the placement of the Heritage widget on the tail of our aircraft...the Heritage widget, as you know, is red, white and blue. Your images (while beautiful) aren't the solution.

By the way, I hope I'm not speaking for the OP out of place...
 
emseeeye
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 16):

Thousands of Delta employees, that's who. Threads on the internal Delta website regarding the new look and the new logo (it's not the widget) have generated more activity than any other thread on there...

But what do the customers think?

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 16):
If he doesn't, my feeling is its because management at present is buried under a pile of negative correspondence they've received from employees regarding the new look...

Again, anyone asked a customer what they thought? I like it. Its clean, its simple and modern. I like how they "spiced" it up and included the widget. Will it make me more prone (or less prone) to fly Delta or not fly Delta. NO!
 
rikkus67
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:19 am

Brett...

I for one DO like the new widget colour...as long as blue and white are represented in the overall livery. In the past, DELTA has used a monotoned widget, so I consider that history repeating.

I too was moved enough to send KLFLFC's interpretation of the new livery on to Delta. A full tail widget with the red on blue is very dramatic....but this whole "negative space" trend is already getting old. The new scheme is rather simple, but the tail is still a disappointment. Maybe DELTA will clue in, and change the position of the widget like they did on the original DC-9...


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the new tail?TARTAN-TAIL, TARTAN-TAIL, TARTAN-TAIL........
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
brettdespain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 19):
By the way, I hope I'm not speaking for the OP out of place...

Nope, you are not. And may I say Alitalia744 that your renderings are beautiful, but I was hoping for the original red and blue widget on the tail, even if it was skewed and sideways.

BTW, check our the following website:

https://connect.delta.com/f5-w-687474703a2f2f646c6e65742e64656c74612e636f6d$$/content/presentation/static/branding/brandcouncil.jsp

I think these are the employees that Delta consulted with on the new brand. I know several of these people and they are top notch! I have nothing against them, I just don't like the design they picked.

One interesting point however is that notice how there are not any pilots on this board? They picked the paint on the airplanes we have to fly. Ironic.

I sent out the original email to several of my Delta pilot comrades and about 90% agree with me that the new widget is a mistake.
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ord
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
It is one person's insight as to what could and in my opinion should have been.

Your opinions are of course important to you. But reading articles in the past few days, there was an internal committee at Delta that chose this design out of about 100 designs. And Tim Mapes, who is in charge of marketing, coordinated the rebranding effort with the design firm and the internal committee and provided his approval. I have no association with Delta but personally really like the look. With anything subjective, some will like it and some will not. Looking back, people hated it when United went to a gray scheme in 1993, then screamed they wanted it back when the blue came out in 2004. Heck, there was an outcry in the late 1960s when American Airlines changed schemes after only about five years. Look where that scheme is almost 40 years later - unchanged and loved by many. The point is, nobody will agree on everything and it is the job of the marketing department to carry out programs they feel are right. That is why they are hired. And they obviously like the new scheme. And the many Delta employees on the brand commitee like the scheme. And the design firm likes the scheme. In all fairness, there are a lot of people that like the scheme.

As for the people being 10-1 against the new livery on the Internet, take that with a grain of salt. Statistics show people complain much more than they praise. Find a great restaurant and you'll see they get more complaints than accolades.

As I said, I love Delta's new look and will continue to fly them (and I hated Deltaflot and still flew them).
 
brettdespain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 20):
I like it. Its clean, its simple and modern. I like how they "spiced" it up and included the widget. Will it make me more prone (or less prone) to fly Delta or not fly Delta. NO!

Good post. Thank you for posting your opinion without getting nasty. I respect your opinion.
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brettdespain
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting ORD (Reply 23):
As I said, I love Delta's new look and will continue to fly them (and I hated Deltaflot and still flew them)

Good post and thanks for your interesting comments. Thanks for continuing to fly Delta.
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OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:36 am

Brett,

First of all, other than a little needed proof-reading, great email to Jerry.

And secondly, even though I've disagreed with you recently on a couple of things, I began to read your post with negativity. Eventually, you turned the tide with me because(gasp), I was shaking my head in agreement.

I too, am not fond of the new Delta logo and am not afraid to make it clear. We share the same feelings on it. While I was expecting and willing to accept a new look for Delta, I did expect one thing to remain clear, the Delta widget, correct colors and all. If the planes needed a new livery, fine. If we needed a new font for "Delta," fine. If we could put the widget back on the tail, great! But one thing I didn't expect was for the color of the widget to be torn away. I will say that I don't totally mind the idea that they have for the new paintjobs, but what happened to the widget was wrong. The widget, for the past almost 40 years, has stood to resemble a rocket in the blue, and the red was to symbolize the flame under it. Now the entire widget is in the flame color. That would have been the perfect livery while DL was going into BK maybe, to say that we were going up in the very flames we tried to stay away from. And on top of that, they cut the widget right down the middle, one side shaded and the other side brightened. What is up with that? It does resemble Citgo! And then you put it on the tail, and like the way everything else has been headed in the industry, you make it too big to fit so that it runs off the tail(Northwest, Japan Airlines, United, Airtran, etc.)? How are we supposed to get people to see our brand if it can't fit in the space provided?

(about to sound cliched, so non-Deltoids look away)And yes, like you, I once would be kicking the dust, wondering what was to happen when I could look up and see that bright blue and red widget staring back at me, shadowing away everything else until it was only visable. After a few seconds, I can't really say I know what happened, I would take a deep breath and walk away feeling a little more pride and a more devoted intention to work harder, do better, make what was wrong right. Now, I can't really say I will feel that way, which is sad. Because I won't see that red and blue widget staring back at me.

So, I must say that I agree with you almost completely. Maybe, we'll get our way and get it changed. Maybe. I sure would be happier if we did. But, in case it doesn't happen, let's do our best to not let it get in the way of what we need to do. Take care of our customers, provide our customers with a comfortable, safe, and on-time ride, and get those airplanes where they need to go, so that in another 5-10 years, when its time for another logo update or change, that you and I will see "our" logo come back to us.

A lot of people have commented on such things as "Who care's" and such. Well, I will be another voice to point out that WE care. The customer may not care whats on the plane, but WE care because thats OUR plane and OUR logo. We all have something that we are passionate about, and for us Deltoids, WE are passionate about OUR airline and OUR logo. Its something that can't really be explained and we are tired of trying.

Keep up the faith, Brett. Great email, and let me know if Jerry responds.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
this is something i threw together last night while I couldn't sleep at 3am, as I was (sadly enough) thinking about DL and the marketing...

Good paintjobs. Oh, and about that insomia problem of yours, I hear Lunesta works great...even though their commercial with that butterly pisses me off every time I see it. LOL I'm telling you, you need a job in the marketing department!



OttoPylit
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LawnDart
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 4):
However, I think it would take a HUGE backlash for anything to be changed at this point. A lot was spent on this design and the roll out fanfare and to reverse it would be costly.

Interesting story: In the 1960s, American Airlines introduced a new paint scheme for their aircraft that incorporated the now-famous AA on the tail, except without the eagle, which had been a part of the American look since the 1930s (in other words, for 30 years). After the new brand was publicly introduced, employees were so outraged that they started a "Save the Eagle" campaign.

The logo was modified to include the eagle, and became the powerful brand we now recognize as that of American Airlines.

Pratt and Whitney took their eagle logo and modified it into a stylized form. Employees objected, logo changed back.

NBC killed the peacock (what the hell does a peacock have to do with broadcasting?!?) and publicly introduced the trapezoidal N...employees objected, NBC plopped the peacock in front of the N. Not good enough...N gone, peacock back.

So who knows...Delta's Brand Management may yet come to their senses.

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 20):
But what do the customers think?

Customer recognition of the Heritage widget is second only to the AA logo of American Airlines here in the United States.

Quick question: visualize the Heritage widget...triangular in shape, straight up and down...blue on top, red on the bottom, white field seperating the two.

Ok, visualize the new logo....hmm....triangular? Well, triangle with the corner snipped off. Straight up and down? No, tilted at an angle...hmm...red...two shades of red, I think...bright on the top? wait...brighter on the right side...yes...well...straight up and down, its brighter on the right side, tilted at an angle...hmm...not sure. Oh, wait...white triangular shape in the gate areas...wasn't it red?

Actually...all of the above.





Are you sure?
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting ORD (Reply 23):
Your opinions are of course important to you. But reading articles in the past few days, there was an internal committee at Delta that chose this design out of about 100 designs.

Now I see the problem: A design by committee.
 
papatango
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:44 am

are you a Delta or Skywest pilot? I think the whole process of Bk11 was for Delta to survive and prosper I believe a new ID was needed since the old ID was the old Delta this a new Delta which is poised to excel.
 
JMV
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:46 am

While one needs to take press releases with a grain of salt, this is what the company stated April 30th about the design selection.

"The updated brand, the result of months of employee and customer research,..."

"As part of the re-branding process, Delta engaged a group of employees representing diverse customer-facing and corporate support divisions from Europe, Latin America and the United States to help in the transformation of the Delta brand. This global group, called the Delta Brand Council, met in focus groups to discuss the importance of Delta’s brand to themselves and their peers and to evaluate potential design work." Delta Charts Fight Plan for a 'Brand' New Era

Rather than lament to the CEO, is there an opportunity for you and others who share your opinion to meet and hear from the council? It would be interesting to hear or read their thoughts on the matter. Likewise, it would be fascinating to see all the different options they reviewed during the process.

For what it is worth, I like what they have done with the livery. Though it isn't unique, as I've stated in other threads (UA, NW, and CO all have oversized logos extending beyond the tail), it looks good. It will make quite a site on the ramp in ATL.
Google begins where my brain ends! ©
 
richierich
Posts: 3289
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 1):
I dont know what upper management looks at (as far as a.net and other similar public sources) but they have to know that most people dislike the new livery

Do you know that already? I find that hard to believe... I'm sure there were clinics done before the final livery was unveiled.

Personally, I don't mind it. Its nice to see the widget come back, although a little less on the 45-degrees Citgo would have been nicer. I like Alitalia744's interpretation (right side) more than the actual livery.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
this is something i threw together last night while I couldn't sleep at 3am, as I was (sadly enough) thinking about DL and the marketing...

I like the right-side much better. Much more Delta and less Citgo. Oh well... DL should have opened it up to a.net for advice!

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 8):
Pardon me for coming across a little strong but who really gives a flip? Come on... dont you think this letter is a little over the top? DL didnt "kill" the widget. They just turned it sidewards. If you really spent the time to write this letter I guarantee it will either:

1. Be ignored and filed in a trash can,
2. Responded by some form letter from DL public relations dept stating something about the "new Delta" and how this livery represnts change... blah blah...

If Grinstein is worth his salt, he - or at least somebody from the top office - should respond to original email. It won't change anything, we all know that, but at least some response is warranted. If he files it "in a trash can", then he is basically saying his own employees are not worth the time of day.
None shall pass!!!!
 
RIXrat
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:20 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:51 am

As far as what customers think, I liked the comment about the tail looking like Scottish "tartan." In my opinion, no customer is going to decipher that as a Delta widget laying on its side with the top cut off. Nice for kilts, but don't tell me that's a widget. Ah, the real widget by the Delta logo looks like a cross between the Austrian flag on the left and the deeper maroon Latvian flag on the right side. DL to RIX anyone?
 
Tbird
Posts: 801
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 3:09 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
I am really disappointed in the new livery and especially the new
widget. People are already calling us CITCO Air and the "Official
Airline of Hugo Chavez".

I think you have a great point here. Chavez isn't popular in the U.S and either is Citgo, why make yourself look like Citgo. How much you want to make a bet these colors are changed not before long.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 3:53 am

I agree that most A.netters have a bad temper when it comes to aviation-related issues and are quick to jump on you when they don't like what you say. Most people who do that probably live a pretty sad like. I've done it a couple of times, and I kind of regret it.

But I don't think you're letter will do anything. They already had this giant party for the scheme and everything, but we are just too far into it now and it's too late to change.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
Charger
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:20 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:05 am

Hey Brettdespain, I agree with everything you say, except...

Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
And before you write me back and tell me that we need a new icon to
symbolize a new emergence for Delta, let me just say that's crap.



Quoting Brettdespain (Thread starter):
You took half my pay, must you take my widget too?

I think this is a little to strongly worded. I agree with you, but your wording could have been a little better.

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 4):
Well written (except it is CITGO, not CITCO). However, I think it would take a HUGE backlash for anything to be changed at this point. A lot was spent on this design and the roll out fanfare and to reverse it would be costly. I give you credit though for having the courage of your convictions to send such a letter.

I also give you credit, but I agree it is probably to late to change anything now.
 
richierich
Posts: 3289
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Tbird (Reply 33):
How much you want to make a bet these colors are changed not before long.

I bet they won't.
None shall pass!!!!
 
brettdespain
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 5:40 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 26):
A lot of people have commented on such things as "Who care's" and such. Well, I will be another voice to point out that WE care. The customer may not care whats on the plane, but WE care because thats OUR plane and OUR logo. We all have something that we are passionate about, and for us Deltoids, WE are passionate about OUR airline and OUR logo. Its something that can't really be explained and we are tired of trying.

Amen brother and thanks for sharing. You are on my list. The good one, BTW  Smile
V1...Rotate.
 
Delta787
Posts: 306
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 8:13 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:26 am

It is starting to really annoy me how much people dislike this livery for some of the stupidest reasons. I really think it is a nice update for Delta. Although we're all entitled to our opinions, I really wish people would stop saying is sucks without any explanation.
Fly Delta!
 
rikkus67
Posts: 1142
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:27 am

Big version: Width: 1176 Height: 419 File size: 32kb


Here was my attempt...still not as good as the full tail widget design by KLCLFC (what the heck is his profile nicname?!), but at least its a FULL widget...


...perhaps a save the FULL WIDGET campaign is in order?  box 
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
brettdespain
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 5:40 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 28):
Now I see the problem: A design by committee

Indeed.

Quoting Papatango (Reply 29):
are you a Delta or Skywest pilot?

Delta.

Quoting JMV (Reply 30):
it looks good. It will make quite a site on the ramp in ATL

I hope you are right. I still don't like it.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 31):
If Grinstein is worth his salt, he - or at least somebody from the top office - should respond to original email

He didn't write back 3 years ago when I wrote him a note, I'm not holding my breath.

Quoting Tbird (Reply 33):
Chavez isn't popular in the U.S and either is Citgo, why make yourself look like Citgo.

Exactly.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 34):
But I don't think you're letter will do anything

I know..  Sad

Quoting Charger (Reply 35):
I think this is a little to strongly worded. I agree with you, but your wording could have been a little better.

That's the problem with being passionate about something, it's hard to take the passion out! Your are right though. I'm still carrying hostility about my pay-cuts, loss of benefits....yada, yada, yada. On the upside, I'm glad to have a job and I'm glad that it is with Delta. We came through BK with flying colors, now it's time to kick some butt. Sadly, we've left our friend, the heritage widget behind.

Brainstorm! Lets petition Delta to repaint a select number of jets with the old widget on the tail and then write "Delta Classic" on the fuselage! Hey, it worked for Coca-cola! That way the employees could have the old widgets around and the executives could take all of the credit for caring about their employees.
V1...Rotate.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15266
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 7):
Look at the two corporate icons and tell me they don't look quite a bit alike.

They always did, with both of the being, you know, triangles Yeah sure
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
brettdespain
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 5:40 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Delta787 (Reply 38):
I really think it is a nice update for Delta. Although we're all entitled to our opinions, I really wish people would stop saying is sucks without any explanation.

Hey, I'm glad you like it. Really, I don't want people to hate Delta. I just think we could have done so much better. As far as why were saying the new brand sucks, re-read the posts by ottopylit and lawndart. I think they've done a great job of explaining why the employees (at least those rereesented here) don't like the new livery.
V1...Rotate.
 
SBN580
Posts: 374
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RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:54 am

Dear Brett,

I want to say thanks for sticking up for the classic widget. I am mightily disappointed that there is a monochrome red widget. I am a Delta-only customer and supporter. I am dumbfounded as to why after employees fought so hard to get the classic widget back, that now there is yet another new one. It is odd. At least the curved "wimpy" widget had the correct colors.

When the new livery leaked to this site and Delta folks here were certain or almost certain it was for real, I wrote the company expressing my concern. I got a form email back assuring me that it had been passed onto the correct department.

I have read Mr. Grinstein's comments about branding and that it is those business travellers up front that it is for. Meaning Delta feels they know there core customer base are business travellers. And when all the heads got together, I figure they picked what would best appeal to the core base.

The way these things are, there is no going back. We can only hope that someday management will come around. Until then, I am so glad you and your fellow employees still fly for the Widget, no matter what color, independent and free.

Best wishes, SBN580

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
You need a widget to feel pride?

You and others with comments like this, just don't get it. Next to Delta, my favorite airline of all-time was North Central Airlines. Their logo, the flying mallard duck, named "Herman," by employees adorned North Central aircraft for all but the first few of the company's years from 1948- 79. After that, when NC merged with Southern Airways and later Hughes Air West to form Republic Airlines, Herman still represented the merged company. NC carried a family spirit amongst its employees, much like Delta has. Herman repsented that spirit, just as the classic red, white and blue Widget represents the spirit of Delta. Well, when new management in the mid 1980s came in, they changed the livery to a bland, corporate look. It was so bland that it makes the new Delta look, look spectacular. Herman was eliminated entirely. This brought major outcry from the employees. So much so, that although it was very tiny, Herman was put on the fuselage just aft of the forward boarding door.

Let me explain it this way: Imagine if some new president was elected and they said, "You know, the present American flag is over 200 years old. It's time for a change. We need a new 21st century looking flag." What would the outcry be? Now, people are not loyal to the flag necssarily for its graphic beauty, though it has it for sure. No, people are loyal to what that flag stands for. It's just the same for Delta employees and the Widget logo.
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
 
SBN580
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:55 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 39):
Big version: Width: 1176 Height: 419 File size: 32kb


Here was my attempt...still not as good as the full tail widget design by KLCLFC (what the heck is his profile nicname?!), but at least its a FULL widget...

Bingo! Now change the widget to blue on top and a white border all around. Then we could live happily ever after.  thumbsup 
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
 
brettdespain
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 5:40 am

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 43):
Let me explain it this way: Imagine if some new president was elected and they said, "You know, the present American flag is over 200 years old. It's time for a change. We need a new 21st century looking flag." What would the outcry be? Now, people are not loyal to the flag necssarily for its graphic beauty, though it has it for sure. No, people are loyal to what that flag stands for. It's just the same for Delta employees and the Widget logo

Wow! I cannot do better than that. Terrific explanation of what I have been trying to say. Thank you. With that, I will sign off leave the rest of the comments to everyone else. Good luck to all.

- Brett
V1...Rotate.
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 26):
but WE care because thats OUR plane and OUR logo. We all have something that we are passionate about, and for us Deltoids, WE are passionate about OUR airline and OUR logo. Its something that can't really be explained and we are tired of trying.

Once again, you must remember this is subjective. What about all the Delta employees on the Brand Council? The ones who are in contact with customers? The ones in corporate? The ones in Europe, Latin America and the U.S.? They all work for Delta, all were on the Brand Council and they chose this livery. There are obviously a lot of people who not only like it but love it.

People here (no one in particular) criticize Delta for not getting input on the new brand (which they did) prior to launch. They also criticize Delta for getting input from the Brand Council and feel a committee should not have chosen the new livery. It can't be both ways.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 5:05 am

Hey Brett, excellent original post, and some excellent points made in your response posts. I couldn't agree more with your basic sentiment. Delta has a very unique work-force with an incredible corporate culture and pride. That widget may just be a logo to some, but it represents SOOOO much more to the employees of Delta. It's a symbol of unity and of the rich history of Delta. It's something that all Delta employees from all walks of life can look at and feel proud of, and feel like a part of something. I think it will be a very sad day when the last red, white, and blue widget disappears from a Delta aircraft. I'm very impressed that you took the initiative to try and do something about it.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
They always did, with both of the being, you know, triangles

I think everyone's referring more to the coloring than the shape. Why are you always so condescending to everyone on here?
Good goes around!
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 3):
I don't get why some people are so worked up about the new '"widget". It's just a logo for Christ's sake! It will make absolutely no difference in the quality of your flight, the size of your paycheck, or the rate of global warming! If you don't like the new logo, don't worry..It will change again in a few years.

There are alot of better things to worry or complain about than the color of a "widget".

 checkmark 

This issue has been dealt with ad nauseum in ginormous threads... the livery the 757 is in apparently is the final livery... people should just get over it. Delta already did the marketing studies and consulting work... apparently if the stuck with this livery... the livery works for their purposes. Who are we to say what Delta should and shouldn't do? We're just a bunch of kids who like plane pictures... not many of us are able to demand such changes on Delta and still stand on professionally grounded reasons. "it's not what I'm used to" or "I just don't like it" are not valid reasons for Delta to pay another consulting firm hundreds of thousands of dollars for another livery. We are all adults... presumably we can all deal if we don't get our way.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: Delta Employee's Lament

Thu May 03, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 27):
Interesting story: In the 1960s, American Airlines introduced a new paint scheme for their aircraft that incorporated the now-famous AA on the tail, except without the eagle, which had been a part of the American look since the 1930s (in other words, for 30 years). After the new brand was publicly introduced, employees were so outraged that they started a "Save the Eagle" campaign.

That scheme did not involve employee input during development. That was certainly not the case with Delta, as the Brand Council that selected the livery consisted of employess across all areas and countries.

Also, and I may be wrong on this, I don't believe the livery was ever painted on a plane. The eagle was added after introduction but before being applied to any planes (except for one experiemental plane, painted during testing, which also did not have a white cheat line - there were only blue and red stripes).