tonytifao
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How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:24 am

Before PanAm went down, how big were they compared to United, AA and Delta? In terms of fleet size, passengers carried and number of cities served.

I remember I flew GIG-JFK a couple of times between 2-8  Smile

Thanks,
Tony
 
777captain
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:38 am

 
dsa
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:39 am

From Wikipedia:

Pan American World Airways, commonly known as Pan Am, was the principal international airline of the United States from the 1930s until its collapse in 1991.

Probably not as big as the legacy acrriers now but it was pretty big for its day and was trully international in scope.

DSA
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jfk787nyc
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:47 am

How come PANAM couldnt get out of Bankruptcy like Delta, US, United?

I think someone should bring this airline back in a really big why
 
tonytifao
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:49 am

I'm flying to BWI weekly and I keep seeing this PanAm little airplane. Do they still exist as a small airline?
 
XJetflyer
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:54 am

http://www.flypanam.com/

That's what I just found. CHeck it out.
 
Viscount724
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 4):
I'm flying to BWI weekly and I keep seeing this PanAm little airplane. Do they still exist as a small airline?

There have been at least 3 (maybe 4) small carriers that have subsequently used the Pan Am name but they're totally unrelated to the original Pan Am. It's unfortunate the name couldn't have been retired when the "real" Pan Am finally shut down.
 
777captain
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 3):
How come PANAM couldnt get out of Bankruptcy like Delta, US, United?

I'm no expert but here goes: Pan Am always lacked a domestic route structure to support its int'l flying. Until the 1980s this was fine because interlining was very common. Then DL, UA, AA et al. all began flying to London, Paris & Frankfurt. So Pan Am bought National to strengthen its network. The merger was a flop for a thousand reasons and they began to lose money. So the sold the Pacific to UA. Continued losses and then the explosion in Lockerbie led to bankruptcy. DL buys most of the Atlantic and LHR goes to UA for cash. All that was left was a small Latin American operation out of MIA and for 10 (I think) months DL feeder. DL couldn't support them so United bought was left.

Please anybody correct me where I'm wrong.

cheers
 
UnitedFirst
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 3):
How come PANAM couldnt get out of Bankruptcy like Delta, US, United?

I would say that, aside from the poor decision to buy National in order to gain a domestic route network, that in the end didn't jive with its international hubs (JFK to Europe / SFO to Asia) except from MIA (to South America), Pan Am also made the mistake of selling off its most valuable assets...both to United: the Pacific network and the Heathrow authority. Eventually, mere months before it shut down, Pan Am also sold its Atlantic route network to Delta. Although Delta promised to pump cash into Pan Am, and to allow for certain cooperation (timing of flights, etc), Delta later decided not to, leading to Pan Am's demise.

Generally speaking, the biggest mistake made was selling off the segments of PA's route network that held the most prestige – and presumably generated the most revenue.
 
spacecadet
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:05 am

The legacy carriers of today are the result of many mergers both large and small. So no, Pan Am was not as big as the AA of today. But they were as big as the AA of Pan Am's time. There were a lot more airlines in those days, and all of them were smaller than the largest airlines of today. (Of course, some of them - including Pan Am - made up for it by flying larger aircraft.)

As for why Pan Am couldn't get out of bankruptcy, it's because they didn't have the route structure to enable them to. During the days of regulation, airlines were basically guaranteed profits and were doled out routes by the government. Pan Am was mainly an international airline without much of a domestic structure. When deregulation came about, they could not compete with other airlines that had both domestic and international routes. No amount of time or restructuring of the company was going to fix that problem.

What it comes down to is the government had things set up a certain way under regulation, and when deregulation came about, it was like pulling the rug out from under everybody. Some airlines had a route structure that could stand on its own, some didn't. Pan Am didn't.
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727LOVER
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:17 am

Actually, the question was why couldn't Pan Am get out of bankruptcy. Not why it filed.

The key here is Pan Am waited WAY too late before filing. They had already agreed to sell LHR around the time of the filing. Then a mere 6 months later, and they had to sell the Atlantic division to Delta, for only 260 million! Quite a bargain for Delta. Also remember, this was 1991, the war was going on, the fuel prices leading up to it. It had only been a little over 2 years since Lockerbie.
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:43 am

When Juan Trippe ran Pan Am he was a very sharp and shrewd operator, and he had many, many politicians in his pocket. He tried to establish Pan Am as "the" flag carrier for the US, and if it wasn't for Howard Hughes (who owned most of TWA at the time) probably would have succeeded. He did succeed in choking off other competitors (such as Matson) but all of these maneuvers had their price. Once he was no longer on the scene the resentments that had been built up by his maneuverings erupted, and during the 70's Pan Am repeatedly tried get domestic routes but by then they had no friends due to the aforementioned resentments and the fact that Juan Trippe was out of the picture and no longer twisting arms. After deregulation they acquired National as the only quick way to get domestic routes, but it was a disaster, as other posters have noted. The rest of the story has been related pretty well and pretty accurately here; what was missing was the backlash against the Trippe saga. Another factor was that Pan Am had bought the largest number of the first 747's, and were hurt because later models were much improved and they were unable to upgrade theirs, plus the fact that too many of them were flying half empty and they couldn't trade them for smaller planes.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
futureatp
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:03 am

Deregulation in 1978 is the primary answer. Pan Am business model was purely international. They were already feeling the heat with TWA and Northwest being granted international routes before then and at the same time they were being denied domestic routes.

As a child my elementary school had an airline book I would check out frequently. I think the title was Travel By Air. Anyway, it was published in the early 80's I would guess. But it listed off the all the major airlines and the amount of aircraft they had. (Pushing my memory and guessing here) United was the largest US airline with about 340 aircraft. Pan Am had around 180. And Aeroflot the largest with over 1000 aircraft.

Interesting figure I read a while ago. After the 747 was introduced into Pan Am's fleet, the had only 2 years of profitability until the shut down in 1991(and both years were prior to deregulation). Makes me wonder if the 380 will have that effect on anyone!
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:17 am

AeroFlot at one point had 11'000 aircraft in there fleet but that was only because during soviet times all aircrafts were AeroFlot.

Where airfares more expensive in 1988 compared to today? How much profit were these carriers making back in the 70s and 80s
 
Gemuser
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:31 am

The thing about Pan Am back in the day was that it flew EVERYWHERE! About the only market it was not in was trans South Atlantic ie Africa/South America and trans Indian Ocean (Africa/Oz). All over Europe, to the middle east, south & east Asia & Oz from Europe and US (both ways) trans North Atlantic, trans Pacific (north & south), west Africa, east Africa & South America.

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Avatordon
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:52 am

Actually PA did fly via the South Atlantic between Brazil and South Africa. Originally, the JFK-JNB flights operated JFK, DKR, ROB, LOS, FIH, JNB. When SA started flying in the late 60s JNB-GIG-JFK, the elapsed travel time was greatly reduced. At one point in the 70s, PA started a mirror service JFK-GIG-JNB. No idea why it was stopped, but eventually they moved the flight back via West Africa (JFK-ROB-JNB). That was later rerouted via DKR when the civil war erupted in Liberia. At that point, it was operated w/a 747.
 
commavia
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 9):
So no, Pan Am was not as big as the AA of today. But they were as big as the AA of Pan Am's time.

Relative to the megacarriers that we are familiar with today, Pan Am was not that big at all. At its zenith, probably somewhere around the late 1960s or early 1970s, before they started closing stations, dropping routes and selling assets, Pan Am was a fairly sizeable airline. But, even then, it was still a relatively small airline by comparison to carriers like AA, Eastern, and United -- all of which were significantly larger (due largely, of course, to their domestic networks).
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 14):
The thing about Pan Am back in the day was that it flew EVERYWHERE! About the only market it was not in was trans South Atlantic ie Africa/South America and trans Indian Ocean (Africa/Oz). All over Europe, to the middle east, south & east Asia & Oz from Europe and US (both ways) trans North Atlantic, trans Pacific (north & south), west Africa, east Africa & South America.

I don't remember Pan American ever being a large presence in Peru. The only US carrier in the seventies was Braniff, and I believe this was also the case in the sixties. I believe they had a presence on the Atlantic side but not the Pacific.

FLY2LIM
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WesternA318
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
After deregulation they acquired National as the only quick way to get domestic routes, but it was a disaster, as other posters have noted

It was a disaster atfirst voer the purchase price. When Pan Am originallybid for Ntioanl it was against Eastern Air Lines, who then upped their bid. Well, in walks Frank Lorenzo and Texas International (before Texas Air was formed) and then outbid BOTH airlines. Pan Am was desperate to get NA, so they outbid Lorenzo. Lorenzo made MILLIONS on Pan Am's desperation. If Lorenzo didnt raise the bar for NA, I doubt he wouldve risen to where he ended up, and I doubt Pan Am would have outbid Eastern three other times in the race for National.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 17):
I don't remember Pan American ever being a large presence in Peru. The only US carrier in the seventies was Braniff, and I believe this was also the case in the sixties. I believe they had a presence on the Atlantic side but not the Pacific.

Pan Am service to Lima was flown by Panagra from the 40's until the merger with Braniff in the 60's. Panagra was bought by Braniff because the President of Panagra had a beef with Juan Trippe at the time, and wanted to keep Panagra from folding into just another division of Pan Am. After the merger, Braniff had a sizeable LatAM/SOAm presence.
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F9Animal
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 1:38 pm

Was Republic larger in terms of aircraft compared to Pan Am? I thought RC was at one point the largest airline.
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:05 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 3):
How come PANAM couldnt get out of Bankruptcy like Delta, US, United?

''

I worked for PanAm briefly between my stints at Eastern and Delta. I was hired by Pan Am after they filed bankruptcy and was then offered employment by Delta when Delta took over the North Atlantic division.

Pan Am was a mess. It was a very chaotic company to work for. Way too many management employees. A very disgruntled and bitter work force. A route structure that could no longer earn a profit....after selling the North Atlantic to Delta and the Pacific Division to United, all that was left was Latin America and a few Caribbean destinations.

When Delta purchased the North Atlantic division, the company offered bridge financing to Pan Am to help it emerge from bankruptcy. But when Pan Am burned through initial financing payments in just a few days, Delta found a way to back out of the deal, essentially stiffing Pan Am out of the rest of the money. Pan Am shut down with 48 hours due to lack of cash.

Pan Am was a "glorious" company only when it came to their history and the status as a pioneer company of the industry. It was a very poorly run company for many years before it went belly up. An awful place to work. Huge money loser for many reasons.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
n844aa
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
Huge money loser for many reasons.

I have to wonder if this snippet from Wikipedia helps explain a few of those many reasons:

Quote:
In the 1950s, Pan Am diversified into other areas. Some of the businesses that Pan Am bought into included a hotel chain, the InterContinental Hotel, and a business jet, the Falcon. The airline was involved in creating a missile-tracking range in the South Atlantic, and in operating a nuclear-engine testing laboratory in Nevada.

Diversified much?
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting N844AA (Reply 21):
Diversified much?

By the time Pan Am filed for bankruptcy, all that was left was the core airline operation.


Everything else...the hotels, the Manhattan office building, route authorities and aircraft..everything.. had been slowly sold off over a period of about 10 years to raise cash to keep the airline flying. By the time the shutdown came, there was nothing of any value left to sell or use as collateral to borrow against.

Pan Am had been only marginally profitable through most of its existence. In my opinion, the real downward spiral began with the acquisition of the 747 fleet and with the National Airlines acquisition. Both events were hugely expensive for Pan Am. Pan Am paid about $400 million for National but spent close to $1 billion to acquire and fully integrate National into Pan Am....way more than it was worth and way more than it could have ever contributed to the bottom line of a merged company. The sell-off of major assets began after the National merger. Ed Acker (he presided over a few bankrupt airlines in his career) came in and basically was another Frank Lorenzo. He gutted what was left of Pan Am when he took over.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
Pan Am was a mess. It was a very chaotic company to work for. Way too many management employees. A very disgruntled and bitter work force. A route structure that could no longer earn a profit....after selling the North Atlantic to Delta and the Pacific Division to United, all that was left was Latin America and a few Caribbean destinations.

As I mentioned earlier, Pan Am's chief asset during its heyday was Juan Trippe's political muscle. Once he left (and when he retired, he actually retired and didn't meddle) that was gone, and all that was left was all the resentments that had been built up. I can well understand how this would lead to the situation you describe; certainly none of the leaders that followed Trippe were up to the task of rescuing the sinking ship that was Pan Am. There is an excellent book about the decline and fall of Pan Am, "Skygods", by Robert Gandt, who was a Pan Am pilot who then went to United when United bought the Pacific routes.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:08 pm

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:17 pm

So, it was basically just dumb of them to sell everything off why didnt they just start building there own Domestic network? if they bought an airline for 400 million dollars in the mid 1980s that around 1 billion dollars today plus the money that was reinvested in the airline.

If they would of left all of there assets not sold off they would probably be the worlds largest airline by market capatilization. Just there office building in New York City is worth around 3 billion dollars today.
 
TPAnx
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:32 pm

To use another example of "big"...ran into an ex-PanAm pilot in the smoking lounge at TPA . He said that "back in the day" the airline could do more for people overseas than the US gpvernment. Flew them in Europe a few times in the
60's--really felt it was our "national airline"..
TPAnx
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 25):
So, it was basically just dumb of them to sell everything off why didnt they just start building there own Domestic network? if they bought an airline for 400 million dollars in the mid 1980s that around 1 billion dollars today plus the money that was reinvested in the airline.

They didn't have the time; they were being squeezed AA, UA, NW, TWA & DL, all of which had domestic and international routes; and they were unable to establish domestic routes at all until deregulation, thanks to the aforementioned hostility that was a residue of Juan Trippe's legacy. Building routes takes time when you're starting from scratch, and they (rightly) felt that they didn't have it. But overpaying for National wasn't a solution, either.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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4everRC
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 19):
I thought RC was at one point the largest airline.

It depends on how you look at it. Immediately after the RW acquisition, RC was indeed the largest domestic carrier, because they served the most cities in the States.
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isitsafenow
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
Commavia

Adding to the above, in the mid and late 60's, the USA had the following international carriers, PA and TW which were
world wide ( TW also had a domestic point to point network), NW to the Orient, EA to Mexico City and Montreal, Western to Mexico City, UA to Vancouver, DL to Caracas, AA , I THINK, to Toronto from NYC(help me on this, Commavia) and Braniff to South America. National served Havana before 61.
PA had a vast worldwide network that was rivaled only by BOAC(now British).Fleet wise, AA and UA had the larger of all above mentioned with EA very close behind.
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commavia
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 29):
AA , I THINK, to Toronto

Yes, plus Mexico City and Acapulco. I believe that was it at that point, but could be wrong.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
Pan Am was a "glorious" company only when it came to their history and the status as a pioneer company of the industry. It was a very poorly run company for many years before it went belly up. An awful place to work. Huge money loser for many reasons.



Quoting SEPilot (Reply 27):
They didn't have the time; they were being squeezed AA, UA, NW, TWA & DL, all of which had domestic and international routes; and they were unable to establish domestic routes at all until deregulation, thanks to the aforementioned hostility that was a residue of Juan Trippe's legacy. Building routes takes time when you're starting from scratch, and they (rightly) felt that they didn't have it. But overpaying for National wasn't a solution, either

2 great pints...Way too many 747's in the earlly 70's when first, we had a mild resession in 70/71 just as the first 747s hit..so many wewre flying around half full at best. Then the 73/74 oil embargo that caused Jet-a to go from about 10 cents per gallon to probably 20 cents in 4 months. Yet another downturn in economic activity resulting in yet more of the freshly delivered 747's flying half full burning more expensive kerosene. Add to this mix, IIRC PA had close to 100 707's still in service in the early- mid-70's. 707's became very expensive to operate and after the 79 Iranian revolution oil price shock , 707's became prohibitvly expensive to fly, yet PA had a few in service. The 1011-500 purchase was too little, too late. (while a great airplane)

PA would have been better off to have ordered some DC-10-30's earlier for teh route that could not justify a 747 (usually half full).

The National deal was a total screw up...paying for something you could have developed for half or less if you had waited 8 or 9 months. Just insane..and even more was the fact that they traded the NA DC-10 fllet to AA for AA's 747's...so ok fleet simplification, but more expensive 747's to fly.

Lots of errors over time building to doom it. Too Bad..at 1 time they were classy!
 
MEA-707
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 16):
it was still a relatively small airline by comparison to carriers like AA, Eastern, and United -- all of which were significantly larger (

AA, Eastern and United were larger but not like 3 or 5 times larger. Let's take 1972 in account, after which Pan Ams decline slowly started
Pan Ams fleet in 1972 was roughly estimated, 100 707s, 23 727s and 34 747s (tt 157)
Easterns fleet was 8 L1011s, 105 727s, 23 DC-8s, 81 DC-9s, 10 L-188s (tt 227)
Americans fleet was 105 707s, 75 727s, 32 747s, 20 DC-10s (tt 232)
United fleet was 150 727s, 74 737s, 14 747s, 112 DC-8s, 14 DC-10s (tt 364)

all numbers +/- 5ish, it would have taken hours to collect the exact figures, so please no snubs at my effort.
So United was definitely the largest. Pan Am might be close to Eastern and American if you take into account that Pan Ams planes were relatively bigger.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 19):
Was Republic larger in terms of aircraft compared to Pan Am? I thought RC was at one point the largest airline

Republic might be underestimated now but they had like 140 DC-9s, 13 Convair 580s, 8 MD-80s and 17 727s in 1985, by that time Eastern, United and American were way bigger. Southern, Hughes Airwest and Northern Central, the original airlines, have also never been huge, think like 40-50 DC-9s each and some propliners.

[Edited 2007-05-04 16:47:55]
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MSYtristar
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:44 pm

It's interesting to note that shortly after the PA/NA merger went through, deregulation ended. PA could have saved the billion or so dollars spent on the NA merger and used its own large fleet of a/c to start up some domestic service. Just bad timing. And yes I blame the government to an extent in regards to Pan Am's struggles in the years leading up to the merger with NA because PA was not allowed to offer domestic flights, even though other U.S carriers could fly not only domestic flights but international ones as well. Fair? Hardly.

The fact is that after Trippe, no future Pan Am CEO had the vision for the airline that Trippe had. In the end, really poor leadership spelled the end for Pan Am.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Fri May 04, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 33):
It's interesting to note that shortly after the PA/NA merger went through, deregulation ended

I had forgotten that; I thought that the merger was after deregulation. That does change the picture, and makes the merger even more unfortunate.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 33):
The fact is that after Trippe, no future Pan Am CEO had the vision for the airline that Trippe had. In the end, really poor leadership spelled the end for Pan Am.

Quite true, but as I have said earlier, Trippe had built up a vast reservoir of ill-will in the way that he operated. None of the subsequent CEO's were able to escape that shadow and establish better relations. They certainly did make some spectacular blunders as well, particularly in the 80's.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
OceansWorld
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:00 am

William Seawell, chairman & CEO of Pan Am since March 1972 choose to buy an airline before the deregulation, and this is seen as his first mistake according to my source. Seawell entered into an agreement to acquire National in September 1978, while the Deregulation Act was signed in October. Still according to my source, Seawell's next mistake was to choose National when other airlines such as Eastern and TWA would have been better candidates given their larger domestic networks.

However, even more troubling was that a young airline entrepreneur named Frank Lorenzo had already started buying up National shares in the open market equal to 20% of the total shares outstanding, as was Eastern, trying to maneuver for a possible deal. So, Seawell openly announced his intentions in September to immerse himself in a bidding war for an airline that didn't make much sense for Pan Am as a merger partner anyway. Of course, when Seawell filed his application with the CAB, it was immediately opposed by both Eastern and Lorenzo's airline Texas Int'l.

Four months before Pan Am applied to merge with National, the carrier had placed an order for 12 Tristars.

... although revenues increased 62% from 1979 to 1980 because of the merger, fuel costs exploded by a whopping 157%. More troubling was that miscellaneous "other" expenses, which should have decreased due to synergies from the merger, actually increased by 74%. This meant that Pan Am management was doing a poor job of integrating National into Pan Am's operations. [...] As 1980 progressed, and Pan Am's financial fortunes worsened, Seawell began casting about the decks of the floundering Pan Am ship searching for anything that could be jettisoned. The first piece of the empire to go was Pan Am's 50% interest in the Falcon Jet Corporation, the maker of the business jets, which was sold in August. Just three month later, in November 1980, Pan Am announced it had sold its landmark Manhattan office building, the Pan Am building, to the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company for $400 million.
These transactions resulted in a gain of almost $300 million to Pan Am in 1980, and allowed the carrier to mask its real operating loss of $181 million with a reported "profit" of $114 million. But few were fooled as the prognosis for 1981 was even more dire.


In 1981, the board of Pan Am replaced Seawell with C. Edward Acker. From 1981 to 1987, the airline accumulated a $1.7 billion loss, this despite having sold its Pacific Division to UA for $750 million. Lockerbie was still to come as well as Kuwait invasion by Iraq and the first Gulf War.

Soon after arriving at Pan Am, it was reported that Acker ordered that an early flight from Bermuda to New York and an early evening flight from JFK back to Bermuda be added to the schedule. Pan Am executives wondered about the decision, since Pan Am's existing flight schedule to Bermuda was more than adequate. Only later did everyone understand the basis for the directive. Acker had a house in Bermuda and wanted to be able to commute back and forth in Manhattan every day from the tropical isle.

Source: American Icarus, by Jack E. Robinson.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 35):
Soon after arriving at Pan Am, it was reported that Acker ordered that an early flight from Bermuda to New York and an early evening flight from JFK back to Bermuda be added to the schedule.

There is precedent for this; for years after Trippe's retirement Pan Am flew a daily 707 flight to the Caribbean island where Trippe lived (I've forgotten which one) with almost no passengers-just to deliver the Wall Street Journal to Trippe.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
MSYtristar
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 36):
(I've forgotten which one)

Rock Sound. 707 service I believe.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 4):
I'm flying to BWI weekly and I keep seeing this PanAm little airplane. Do they still exist as a small airline?

IMO, there was only ever one Pan Am, the one that died in the early 90's. This thing that has popped up in various iterations over the years with 72S and J32's is not worthy of the name. It's a shame the Pan Am name could not have been trademarked and retired.

One of the very first timetables I owned as a kid was the one including the first 747 service in 1970 (I still have it, it's worth a mint on eBay). The centerfold route map still amazes me. It folds out to 8 panels, with different color lines indicating routes to various regions (one color for Europe, another for Asia, etc.) A route system no U.S. carrier will ever duplicate on it's own I think.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 36):
Pan Am flew a daily 707 flight to the Caribbean island where Trippe lived (I've forgotten which one) with almost no passengers-just to deliver the Wall Street Journal to Trippe.

Indeed. The Trippe lived in Eleuthera, in the Bahamas and the 707 was flying back and forth from Rock Sound's airport. Just a bit of eccentricity from the airline founder...

[Edited 2007-05-04 17:47:00]
 
lvhgel
Posts: 118
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting 777captain (Reply 7):

You pretty much summarized the story

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 20):
It was a very poorly run company for many years before it went belly up.

 checkmark 

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 22):
In my opinion, the real downward spiral began with the acquisition of the 747 fleet and with the National Airlines acquisition

Never flown on a full PA 747 (I've flown approximately 16 times in them)
 
PBIflyguy
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 2:40 am

National was an exceptional airline, on many levels. Solid financially ( we owned our aircraft), very functional ( yet odd) route network, good customer service and the best coworkers anyone could ask for. Allowing the merge with PamAm was the biggest mistake we ever made. If you examine the airline PRE PanAm you can see that we had all of the key points and would have survived to this day. True nobody can predict the future, but the airline was armed in all the right ways to survive. No wonder PanAm wanted us so badly.

I started flying with them six months before the big blue swallowed us up. Then I survived the Delta attack and continue with them to this day. I'll be 27 years senior come June. Happy to have my job and I still love it, but it is NOT the same industry it was back then. I was flying for 3 years and was doing 747's transatlantic. Now i'm lucky to find a decent line with a layover of 12 hours  Smile

Ponder this, what if National didnt pair up with PanAm and Eastern airlines saw the Lornezo shark coming and ran the other way? Safe bet that the DL route system sure would look different.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting LVHGEL (Reply 40):
Never flown on a full PA 747 (I've flown approximately 16 times in them)

This is where Juan Trippe's vision broke down. He was the driving force behind the development of the 747, and envisioned it enabling fares to drop to the point where everyone and his brother would be able to fly. At the time the 707 was in fact driving fares down from where they were in the piston era, and most of Pan Am's 707's were full most of the time. He just simply overshot the target, and discovered that before the fares could fall the planes needed to be full, and they rarely were. So instead of ushering a new golden era for Pan Am the 747 was a big factor in its downfall. I believe even without it, however, Pan Am was doomed by the backlash against Trippe compounded by the bad leadership it experienced after Trippe left.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
LatinPlane
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 3:33 am



 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 3:41 am



One more - this one from the late 70s.

 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
747400sp
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 4:37 am

In there last years, Pan Am used a lot of Boeing 747, out of LAX alone. Out of LAX they had 3 going to JFK, 1 to HNL, 1 to MIA, and believe or not, 1 to SFO and of course 1 to LHR. As much as I liked seeing all those clipper monsters landing at LAX. I have to wonder, if they used an A300 on some of those JFK fights or kept some of those ex National DC10s, could they have survive.





PS: I miss Pan Am, it was my favorite airline in the world, and I miss those clipper monsters ( Boeing 747). I really like the with the stripe on them, they looked a lot more tougher than the ones with the block letters. No Boeing 747 look tougher than a PA or AA 747 and that is opinion!  twocents 
 
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LTU932
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 5):
http://www.flypanam.com/

That's the website for Boston-Maine Airways, aka Pan Am Clipper Connection, aka Pan Am III. Except for the name, which they most likely use for marketing purposes, they have no relationship whatsoever with Pan American World Airways.

EDIT: Just to plug this vid as well. It's an advert basically, from when PA introduced the 707 to their fleet.



[Edited 2007-05-04 21:49:06]
 
OceansWorld
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 45):
I have to wonder, if they used an A300 on some of those JFK fights or kept some of those ex National DC10s, could they have survive.

I remember seeing two of their A300s at LAX in July 1991, with one later taking off rather heavy. Don't know where was it heading to then ? At least not HNL...

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 46):
Except for the name, which they most likely use for marketing purposes, they have no relationship whatsoever with Pan American World Airways.

Sadly enough, there are now trains sporting the Pan Am name and logo. Makes me wonder what would Trippe think of all that if he was still around ?

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 45):
I miss Pan Am [...] and I miss those clipper monsters ( Boeing 747). I really like the with the stripe on them, they looked a lot more tougher than the ones with the block letters.

I miss Pan Am too, but I preferred their B747s with the billboard titles. The older color scheme didn't fit well. Made them look like someone dressed with too small outfits.

[Edited 2007-05-04 22:01:38]
 
lvhgel
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 46):

Some details I want you to note from the video (I am old enough to have seem them my self):

1) The "aerostats wall paper": I clearly remember those in their 707s
2) The "treats" for the kids: I remember the puzzle and the binder they gave you, (I still keep somewhere the Metal Wings with the globe)
3) The table games: They carried chess and checkers sets available on request and the F/A always got a new pack of playing cards to give you, I clearly remember ones with the "China Clipper" in their back (pity never kept a set of those)
4) The lounge in the front.
(ah BTW, once, in 73 or 74, I've flown the 747 in first with the upstairs lounge, in that 4 Hr. flight I had a ball with my brother, going up, coming down, going up and down again the spiral stairs, and when we landed they gave us a tour of the cockpit, AND I GOT TO SIT ON THE CAPTAIN'S CHAIR.)  veryhappy 
5) The F/A smiles, they were for real.
 
Lemurs
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RE: How Big Was Pan Am?

Sat May 05, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 46):
EDIT: Just to plug this vid as well. It's an advert basically, from when PA introduced the 707 to their fleet.

I notice how they were talking about mood lighting inside the cabin there...any idea how they acomplished that? Gels around regular incandescents? Hmm...
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.

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