masseybrown
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Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:03 pm

Mesa (Air Midwest) yesterday filed notice with the DOT that it intends to discontinue service to Athens, GA, Hagerstown, MD, Franklin/Oil City, PA, Dubois, PA, Lancaster, PA, and Lewisburg, WV, as of August 1, 2007. All routes are US Airways feeders, with the Athens route feeding CLT and the others feeding PIT.

Unlike previous Air Midwest notices, which were often successful ploys to increase subsidies, this sounds final, with Air Midwest saying they intend to redeploy the aircraft to different hubs.
 
jdwfloyd
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:31 pm

LWB goes to CLT as well as PIT, on the same A/C IIRC. I would not be surprised to see 9L jump on all of those routes, less Athens.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Fri May 04, 2007 2:39 pm

Where is Colgan going to find more junkers to run these routes on though? They already had to (crap)can ABE-PIT to free a plane so they could pick up the MGW/CKB/PKB flying.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Fri May 04, 2007 3:24 pm

Franklin and Lewisburg may not see new service. Their subsidy rate was projected at around $200 per passenger, the legal limit. If Air Midwest can't make those routes work at maximum subsidy, I doubt Colgan can either. Hagerstown is another question mark.

I believe Air Midwest was reawarded all these routes since April, 2006. They aren't wasting any time quitting.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:20 pm

Hmm.. what about Air Midwest CHS/ORF-RDU flights? Are they still around or are they in danger also?
Aiming High and going far..
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
what about Air Midwest CHS/ORF-RDU flights?

Checking Orbitz August schedules, those flights appear to be gone.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 3:38 am

Hmm.. I just checked Kayak (which went to Orbitz) for September 4, and the flights were still loaded.. oh well.. maybe they just haven't taken then out yet..

Sometimes, Air Midwest will stop the flights for a month or two and/or Gulfstream International will run the flights..
Aiming High and going far..
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 4:04 am

Those flights aren't EAS, are they? So SOMEONE could conceivably make money on them, or they would have been gone long ago.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
flyboy7974
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 4:27 am

When Air Midwest/Mesa announced the discontinue of their Lake Havasu service to PHX, which ends this weekend, they announced a further rapid discontinue of most of their B1900 flying. In the article, it mentioned that their only profitable route in their entire network with the B1900 was the RDU-CHS route. Interesting enough, because here in PRC, Mesa did end up bidding against Great Lakes for the EAS route up for grabs right now with the new bid effective July 1, so, it's actually looking like if Mesa gets the PRC EAS subsidy, and IGM is dropped all together from the EAS program, then PRC may actually finally be getting the Dash 9 flights that we've been waiting for, thank God
 
imapilotaz
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 5:06 am

Mesa after October 1, when Lancaster and Hagerstown's EAS subsidies disappear, would have 4 cities with 2 aircraft spread across some 600 miles (AHN is a long way away from DUJ). Unlike Great Lakes and Big Sky, Mesa understands they can not run an operation with 2 aircraft and a full maintenance base for the East Coast. That's a whole lot of overhead for 2 only aircraft.

They still have roughly 5 lines of flying out west and 7 or so in the midwest.
 
BatonOps
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 4):
Hmm.. what about Air Midwest CHS/ORF-RDU flights?

What was the purpose of this route? Norfolk and Charleston are big Navy towns.

I wonder who will serve LNS now...
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 7:56 am

Republic Airlines, where are you???

Hey, they likely may not be the ones to add the service, but it's just a thought. Perhaps PSA? Or are 50-70 seaters too big for these markets? Eh, on second thought... Those are very small close markets to PIT (minus Athens)...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 11):
Republic Airlines, where are you???

Hey, they likely may not be the ones to add the service, but it's just a thought. Perhaps PSA? Or are 50-70 seaters too big for these markets? Eh, on second thought... Those are very small close markets to PIT (minus Athens)...

No, no, no, and no.

It would be a real stretch runway-wise to get an RJ into HGR (5461'), FKL (5200'), DUJ (5504' + terrain).

HGR isn't really close to PIT (around 2 hours from here in Uniontown, so somewhere around 3 hrs and a few odd minutes up to PIT) but it is relatively close to MDT and the Washington 3.

Not to mention if the Beech 1900's are too much aircraft for those markets sans subsidy, an RJ would just be a huge waste of money.
 
A330323X
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
Mesa (Air Midwest) yesterday filed notice with the DOT that it intends to discontinue service to Athens, GA, Hagerstown, MD, Franklin/Oil City, PA, Dubois, PA, Lancaster, PA, and Lewisburg, WV, as of August 1, 2007.

As Imapilotaz already said, HGR/LNS are going to lose their EAS subsidy eligibility on October 1. I expect the DOT to hold-in Air Midwest at those two markets until that date, likely at increased subsidy.

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 1):
I would not be surprised to see 9L jump on all of those routes, less Athens.

I'd expect Colgan to make a play for DUJ and LWB. Big Sky will likely bid on them as well.

As for AHN, that's the tricky one. Colgan will now probably get the access into US's CLT hub that they've wanted for a long time, so Colgan could make a go of CLT-AHN in combination with moving some of the BKW/BLF service from IAD to CLT. But that's rather unlikely.

The other, more unlikely option is that Piedmont or ASA could conceivably bid on AHN and/or LWB service with larger equipment.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
Franklin and Lewisburg may not see new service. Their subsidy rate was projected at around $200 per passenger, the legal limit.

FKL will likely lose service, yes.

LWB is remote enough (210+ driving miles from CLT or IAD) that it is not subject to the $200/pax subsidy cap. Of course, it also receives a large amount of unsubsidized (well, not by the DOT anyway) service during the summer season.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
Those flights aren't EAS, are they?

Yes, they were all subsidized EAS routes. The only unsubsidized routes were RDU-CHS/ORF.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 13):
Yes, they were all subsidized EAS routes. The only unsubsidized routes were RDU-CHS/ORF.

I'm confused. I was talking about the RDU routes...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
silentbob
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 10):
I wonder who will serve LNS now...

With MDT only 35 miles away do they really need service? I could understand if the nearest airport was 100 miles away, but subsidizing an airport that size makes no sense when there are other options available for potential passengers. If people are skipping MDT in favor of driving to PHL or BWI, subsidizing service to LNS seems like a waste of money to me.
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):

Heck, that was expected. I figured those were too small of a market for US to fly into with those kinds of aircraft...

We can all wish and dream, right?  Smile

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 15):
With MDT only 35 miles away do they really need service? I could understand if the nearest airport was 100 miles away, but subsidizing an airport that size makes no sense when there are other options available for potential passengers. If people are skipping MDT in favor of driving to PHL or BWI, subsidizing service to LNS seems like a waste of money to me.

Besides, it's not as if LNS has no commercial service what so ever... They do have the WN charters each month  Smile
LNS should just remain a corporate/general aviation airport really. If only MDT had more service...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
apodino
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:03 pm

Air Wisconsin is flying into LWB this weekend for a couple of days. Not sure why this is, but its only for a couple of days.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:26 pm

Athens, Lancaster, and Hagerstown are all within 75 miles of major airports, 75 miles being the minimum distance for justifying subsidy. I know in the case of Pennsylvania and Maryland, their governors certified (lied?) that, despite possible routings of less than 75 miles, the "usual driving route" exceeded 75 miles. Who knows how Georgia justified Athens being subsidized?

The whole EAS program is a boondoggle, although one of the better ones.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 18):
Athens, Lancaster, and Hagerstown are all within 75 miles of major airports, 75 miles being the minimum distance for justifying subsidy.

What major airport is HGR within 75 driving-distance of? MDT isn't "major" Is it really that close to IAD?
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:31 pm

A little off topic, but what was the deal with PIT-LBE service??? This has to have been the stupidest route in US' system when they had a larg(er) operation at PIT. It's either an hour's drive, or a 50 minute train ride on Amtrak...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:32 pm

HGR-IAD is 76 miles.

HGR-MDT is 79 miles.

But both those are Mapquest distances, and the government could conceivably compute the distances in such a way that they are less than 75.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 20):
A little off topic, but what was the deal with PIT-LBE service??? This has to have been the stupidest route in US' system when they had a larg(er) operation at PIT.

I flew it once or twice, preferred MGW though. It always had a half decent load, but that doesn't mean anything. It was a beautiful flight VFR. Followed the parkways basically, right over downtown, the stadiums, Kennywood/Waterfront, etc. I'm sure there were enough high-value business travellers/yuppies in the LBE area to support it. There is a good bit of money out there, and used to be more. From what I hear, NWA still does well on that route out to DTW. Obviously nobody was flying LBE-PIT O&D, so the Amtrak theory is moot. And you couldn't take Amtrak to the airport anyways to make a connector flight.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
HGR-MDT is 79 miles.

But MDT is a regional airport at best. That was my point. I didn't realize IAD was only 76 though.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sat May 05, 2007 2:42 pm

Hagerstown to Dulles is 65 miles if you take Route 15 via Point of Rocks. If you take the "usual" route via the Washington Beltway it's slightly over 75 miles.

[Edited 2007-05-05 08:11:29]
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sun May 06, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 22):
Obviously nobody was flying LBE-PIT O&D, so the Amtrak theory is moot. And you couldn't take Amtrak to the airport anyways to make a connector flight.

Oh yeah... DUH!!! What was I thinking with the "Amtrak" theory??? Maybe if local transit provides service from Westmoreland County to Downtown and beyond. I do wish Pittsburgh had a more widespread network like Philly has with SEPTA...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sun May 06, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):
Maybe if local transit provides service from Westmoreland County to Downtown and beyond.

I would assume that Westmoreland Transit provides buses into at least downtown. Even FACT (Fayette County's version) provides buses to downtown Pittsburgh now via 51 and some intermediate stops. NOT out to PIT though, I guess you're supposed to connect over to PAT if you want that.

Let's not forget about the Maglev project, the savior of Western PA. Now where's that mop for this sarcasm I just spilled?

For some of these, CommutAir may be able to take them up to CLE as more and more Dash 8's come online to free up Beeches. If CommutAir had done the MGW/CKB/PKB flights instead of Regions Air from the get-go, that debacle wouldn't have occurred. CLE has alot more connecting opportunity than PIT does via US anymore. The WV cities were rather adamant about getting Saabs though.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sun May 06, 2007 2:57 am

AHN- ATL is not a very quick drive, esp given ATL traffic probably looking at just about1 hr 30 min under optimal conditions over 2 hrs if its rush hour, I think the service would do better if the flights were at better times, they had 2x CLT and i believe one of them is at 7pm, and there was no early morning departure. I hope the proximity to CLT will lead to a DH8 picking up the route and at better times. Better times and aircraft would do well for passenger counts.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
silentbob
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sun May 06, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):
I do wish Pittsburgh had a more widespread network like Philly has with SEPTA...

As long we don't have to keep bailing out every couple years, like SEPTA, I would be in favor of that.
 
UN_B732
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sun May 06, 2007 10:14 pm

Does AMW's shortage of captains have anything to do with this?

-A
What now?
 
flightopsguy
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sun May 06, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 23):
Hagerstown to Dulles is 65 miles if you take Route 15 via Point of Rocks. If you take the "usual" route via the Washington Beltway it's slightly over 75 miles.

Too bad for HGR. I recall when Henson had the AL commuter, you had flights to several destinations on B99 and Shorts aircraft, back in the 1960's-'70s. BWI, IAD, and DCA are all within 90 mins. door to door drive. I wonder if they will land any new service with the 9/27 runway extension project?
A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Sun May 06, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 25):
I guess you're supposed to connect over to PAT if you want that.

And recently that Airport route was in jeopordy of being cut...

They are proposing to extend the LRT service out there as soon as the North Shore Extension is completed. They really need to focus on that. I think PIT has to be the only airport without any type of regional rail service to its downtown.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Mon May 07, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 30):
I think PIT has to be the only airport without any type of regional rail service to its downtown.

There are plenty out there...

DTW
CLT
MCO
LGA
IAD

etc.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
apodino
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Mon May 07, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
There are plenty out there...

DTW
CLT
MCO
LGA
IAD

etc.

SEA
LAS
PHX
 
Buddys747
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Mon May 07, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 16):
If only MDT had more service

 bigthumbsup 
 
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usxguy
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Mon May 07, 2007 4:26 am

i never heard of a pilot shortage at Air Midwest.. from what I hear, those are some of Mesa's most senior (and happy) pilots... friend of mine was an FO for over 4 years before she could upgrade!
xx
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Mon May 07, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 18):
Athens, Lancaster, and Hagerstown are all within 75 miles of major airports, 75 miles being the minimum distance for justifying subsidy. I know in the case of Pennsylvania and Maryland, their governors certified (lied?) that, despite possible routings of less than 75 miles, the "usual driving route" exceeded 75 miles. Who knows how Georgia justified Athens being subsidized?

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the minimum 70 miles, not 75?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Mon May 07, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 29):
Too bad for HGR. I recall when Henson had the AL commuter, you had flights to several destinations on B99 and Shorts aircraft, back in the 1960's-'70s.

Back in those days, Hagerstown had big Mack Truck and Fairchild operations. Fairchild is gone now and Mack is a shadow of what it was. The old business traffic evaporated with the businesses.
 
flyboy7974
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 12:00 am

has anybody heard any update or found/read anything concerning the PRC bid for essential service? Our local paper, hahaha, did a small article on the bid a few days ago, but again, not much said except that Mesa and Great Lakes were the only bidders and the city council voted unanimously for the Mesa bid, which thank goodness, DOT now takes take into consideration very highly the local city's request for service.

I just tried for about 45 minutes searching the EAS dockets and archives and found nothing, but I get easily lost in all of those government websites.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 12:13 am

Checking the US website and it was updated as of Saturday, RDU-CHS/ORF are still on the books and bookable through at least Apr 2008
Aiming High and going far..
 
imapilotaz
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 12:47 am

Flyboy,

The Prescott city council put on their agenda for tomorrow the actual vote to recommend Mesa. The way City Council's work, they must first have a hearing to discuss the proposals, and then a second hearing to actual vote on the consent that was recommended in the last meeting. Kingman, Page & Show Low have not had their meetings, from what I understand, and so nothing more than letters from the public have been docketed.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 37):
DOT now takes take into consideration very highly the local city's request for service.

Well ... sometimes. DOT will ignore any recommendation that seems obviously gold-plated and generally pick the low-bidder.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 38):
Checking the US website and it was updated as of Saturday, RDU-CHS/ORF are still on the books and bookable through at least Apr 2008

They are set to end in September, despite still being bookable.
a.
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 4:48 am

Well... I hope after this there will be NO MORE CUTS at PIT... What else is there to cut there? They have removed FOUR HUNDRED FLIGHTS... I wonder what the world record is for largest number of flights to be removed from a hub Airport. PIT is certain to be high up on that list!

Why is it that when I hear of rumors of expansion, all that happens is more CUTS??? I keep hearing rumors of PSA adding flights. I hope those don't turn out to be cuts as well... Please GOD help this region!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
rampart
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 32):
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
There are plenty out there...

DTW
CLT
MCO
LGA
IAD

etc.

SEA
LAS
PHX

Also...
DEN
LAX
MIA
MCI
IAH
SLC (but has one proposed)

PHX is supposed to have a people mover sometime in the near (?) future connecting to its rail corridor. Wasn't there also one proposed for LAS?

-Rampart
 
masseybrown
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 42):
Why is it that when I hear of rumors of expansion, all that happens is more CUTS???

I suspect traffic and yield forecasts are softer than US airlines have admitted and that some of the summer expansion planned last fall has been quietly scrubbed. As they say in baseball, wait 'til next year.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 43):
MIA

MIA has commuter rail that connects MIA, FLL, and PBI, and a MetroRail staiton will be opening in 2010.
a.
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 44):
As they say in baseball, wait 'til next year.

Then "next year" becomes 20 years...

I actually started a thread in the non-av forum, "if I ran Pittsburgh..." I am rather fed up with the ways things are going out there. I know it may seem rather pointless now that I am living in Lancaster, but I still don't want Pittsburgh to be dealing with decay. It's the fastest "dying" city in the country, even in terms of MSA. (New Orleans does not count. That city was bigger than Pittsburgh, and that city is in the pickle it's in thanks to Mother Nature.)... Well anyway, yinz can all read that if you like...

I am still praying for better days in PIT and the region...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 46):

I am still praying for better days in PIT and the region...

It's not nearly as bad as you think. And losing those EAS flights... at the end of the day they're all combined equal to about one 734 to FLL or something. No big deal at all.
 
steeler83
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 8:12 am

I guess in that regard, it's only a small insignificant dent in the PIT market...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Mesa(Air Midwest) Gives Up In The East?

Tue May 08, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 48):
I guess in that regard, it's only a small insignificant dent in the PIT market...

The AMW flights lost are basically cancelled out by the MGW/PKB/CKB gained. But it's still tiny specks of traffic. The West Virginians should have lobbied harder to get DCA (I know, slots) or IAD. PIT is rather worthless for an EAS route in this day and age.