KL577
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KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:04 pm

KLM flight 577 from Amsterdam to Abuja and Kano was delayed yesterday for three hours. According to a passenger on the flight they were told that the wings were bended too much (out of the secure limitations). Passengers were transferred to another A332 and left AMS three hours later.

Does anybody know what happened exactly and if this is something that happens more frequently (on a relatively new A332)?
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 6:43 pm

Sounds like complete rubbish to me - sounds like your mate is having you on.

The wings are able to bend upwards to mad, mad angles - An A332's wings, even at beyond MTOW will bend on takeoff but nothing like that much. If the wings were bent that much it would have to have been clear air turbulence and pretty severe stuff at that. If that were the case we would be hearing about major injuries and possibly deaths amongst the pax/crew in that kind of turbulence.

The wings are certified to a huge bend angle, although before they get anywhere near that angle they would probably be hauled in for a precautionary survey to make sure nothings come loose. I dont think there is actually any way of measuring wing-bend to the best of my knowledge - there isnt a read-out or monitor in the cockpit that i've ever heard of, so the point is that they wouldnt know how much the wings have bent anyway i wouldnt have thought.

If it was very heavy turbulence then they would haul the frame in for a survey but it would be the longitudinal bending of the fuselage between frames they would be looking at I would think. Would have to be EXTREME turbulence to take an A330 offline for a survey though - if it was that bad we probably would have heard about it.

More than likely the A330 went tech for something much more mundane and your mate heard wrong. Generally airlines dont lie to passengers about what is wrong if something goes tech.

[Edited 2007-05-04 11:51:00]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
KL577
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:02 pm

The plane was still on the ground when this was apparantly discovered by (a) ground technician(s). After close inspections, while the passengers were waiting on board it was decided the aircraft was not suitable to fly. Hence a spare aircraft was prepared and the passengers and cargo transferred. This is the story I heard, wasn't there so don't know how realiable this all is. Anybody from KLM with some insight information?
 
FLYtoEGCC
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:43 pm

If he definitely heard it was something to do with limitations on the airframe, maybe it could possibly have been a loading error and the aircraft was inadvertently loaded above its Maximum Zero Fuel Mass limitation or something, which means it would probably have to be checked over by engineers before it was allowed to fly again. That's a guess, obviously, but it seems logical.
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
andrewtang
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:46 pm

Well in the last few years or so, Airbus did issued a warning to airlines to instruct them to check on their A330/A340s after it was reported to them that cracks were found on the wings during a check by an airline.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 3):
If he definitely heard it was something to do with limitations on the airframe, maybe it could possibly have been a loading error and the aircraft was inadvertently loaded above its Maximum Zero Fuel Mass limitation or something, which means it would probably have to be checked over by engineers before it was allowed to fly again. That's a guess, obviously, but it seems logical.

To Kano and Abuja - I would think she would have been close to MTOW once fuelled, so they would have been extra careful for this not to happen. I agree it seems logical but id be amazed if KL have actually allowed this to happen.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
pilot21
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Andrewtang (Reply 4):
reported to them that cracks were found on the wings during a check by an airline.

This relates to a BMI A330 which was out of service from Oct to Jan after a cracked wing spar was found. It is assumed that the crack occurred during a very heavy landing, but to the best of my knowledge, no further incidents or issues with cracked wings have been reported with A330/A340's
Is it possible somebody hit the wing of the KLM aircraft during loading, and the guy heard the announcement wrong when they decided to take the aircraft out of service to check it over?

Pilot21
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
FLYtoEGCC
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 7:58 pm

Agree! But stranger things have happened - the Emirates A340 not making it off the ground due to a loadsheet error springs to mind; you could say you'd be surprised if Emirates allowed that to happen, but for some reason it did. People make mistakes.

I do agree with you though it's probably unlikely in this case - it was just a vague idea to throw into the mix.
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
philb
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 8:00 pm

In the early 1980s (1981 if I remeber correctly) I was on BA's BAC 1-11 G-AVMZ flying Manchester - Dusseldorf - Berlin.

We hit severe CAT over the east of England and just before we hit the starboard wing, over which I was sitting, bent upwards by around 30 degrees without the aircraft banking. Then we hit the rough stuff for around 30 seconds.

After the mayhem had calmed down - slightly injured cabin crew, food and drink over everthing and everyone plus the Captain with a cut on his head as he had been about to leave his seat for the toilet - the Captain came through the cabin to reassure people. I was sitting next to a Tornado development pilot and we both reported the wing bending - which we both appreciated was within tolerance.

On arrival at Dusseldorf engineers inspected the wing and opened a couple of panels - presumably to look for fuel seepage or any visible damage to control runs/cabling and, after two hours delay, we continued to Berlin.

On arrival at Berlin the aircraft was taken out of service and ferried straight back to Manchester for a detailed inspection. I was at Tegel two days later when it was returned to Berlin to take up its roster on BA's German services with a clean bill of health.

It is a prudent airline that carries out detailed checks after such incidents and the wing doesn't have to come close to its design limits for damage to be cause to systems and structures contained within the wing - without affecting the airworthiness of the flying surfaces or load bearing structures.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Fri May 04, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 8):
In the early 1980s (1981 if I remeber correctly) I was on BA's BAC 1-11 G-AVMZ flying Manchester - Dusseldorf - Berlin.

We hit severe CAT over the east of England and just before we hit the starboard wing, over which I was sitting, bent upwards by around 30 degrees without the aircraft banking. Then we hit the rough stuff for around 30 seconds.

After the mayhem had calmed down - slightly injured cabin crew, food and drink over everthing and everyone plus the Captain with a cut on his head as he had been about to leave his seat for the toilet - the Captain came through the cabin to reassure people. I was sitting next to a Tornado development pilot and we both reported the wing bending - which we both appreciated was within tolerance.

On arrival at Dusseldorf engineers inspected the wing and opened a couple of panels - presumably to look for fuel seepage or any visible damage to control runs/cabling and, after two hours delay, we continued to Berlin.

On arrival at Berlin the aircraft was taken out of service and ferried straight back to Manchester for a detailed inspection. I was at Tegel two days later when it was returned to Berlin to take up its roster on BA's German services with a clean bill of health.

It is a prudent airline that carries out detailed checks after such incidents and the wing doesn't have to come close to its design limits for damage to be cause to systems and structures contained within the wing - without affecting the airworthiness of the flying surfaces or load bearing structures.

Agreed - this is what I said. It should be noted that a notorious area for CAT is western sub-Saharan Africa every time i've flown over it it has been very bumpy and on occasion very bumpy indeed- I remember AF lost a cabin crew member on a 744 flight JNB-CDG a few years ago due to sudden and violent CAT and a close encounter with an airborne drinks trolley as I recall. I agree with you - i think more than likely it was a very bumpy ride and they took her out of line for a quick check to make sure.

Fair play to KL - you'd have to applaud that kind of safety mentality.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
qslinger
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 7):
Agree! But stranger things have happened - the Emirates A340 not making it off the ground due to a loadsheet error springs to mind; you could say you'd be surprised if Emirates allowed that to happen, but for some reason it did. People make mistakes.

More info on this would be appreciated..
Raj Koona
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Qslinger (Reply 10):
Quoting FLYtoEGCC (Reply 7):
Agree! But stranger things have happened - the Emirates A340 not making it off the ground due to a loadsheet error springs to mind; you could say you'd be surprised if Emirates allowed that to happen, but for some reason it did. People make mistakes.

More info on this would be appreciated..

There was an EK A343 departing JNB in 2005 - Crew selected the wrong FADEC thrust settings and only realised mid-way through the takeoff run that they wouldnt have enough oomph to get off - the PIC pulled back too sharply on the stick and the aircraft sustained significant u/c damage on the ILS and landing light pylons as it got off just in the nick of time.

Thats my recollection anyway.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:28 am

A/c involved was PH-AOI. A dent was discovered on the right wing leading edge. PH-AOC took over but un- and reloading takes some time of course.

After polishing the dent the a/c was used later that day for KL409/ALA and is now on her way to KWI, luckily enough no severe damage.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
oly720man
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
There was an EK A343 departing JNB in 2005 - Crew selected the wrong FADEC thrust settings and only realised mid-way through the takeoff run that they wouldnt have enough oomph to get off - the PIC pulled back too sharply on the stick and the aircraft sustained significant u/c damage on the ILS and landing light pylons as it got off just in the nick of time.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_4_19/ai_n9476427
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Tom12
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
The wings are certified to a huge bend angle

Yeah, don't quote me to this but if memory serves, the 777's flex by more than 148%!

Tom
"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
 
cloudyapple
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 1:46 am

Now this is too much~

Failed at 154%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uo0C01Fwb8
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
KL577
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 12):
A/c involved was PH-AOI. A dent was discovered on the right wing leading edge. PH-AOC took over but un- and reloading takes some time of course.

Thanks for the info. I flew PH-AOI (Plaza de la Independencia) last monday (Queen's day) from Amsterdam to KAN as well.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 8):
I was sitting next to a Tornado development pilot and we both reported the wing bending - which we both appreciated was within tolerance.

... and that is correct behaviour! as a passenger, if you see/smell something unusual, you should point it out to a member of crew (without going hysterical or panicky of course).

I was on an AF A320 a few months ago, pointed out to the Purser an unusual smell (flesh rotting, to be precise) coming from the overhead ventilation. We had a bit of a discussion (no, not hot, not burning etc), and I subsequently learnt they discovered a dead rat in one of the air conditioning packs (rather nip that one before it's reached full maturity! and stunk everybody out!).

I recall another post recently about a deadheading pilot noticing a patch of ice on the wing of the aircraft (after 2 de-ice). the copilot went out, verified, and they de-iced a 3rd time (correctly!).

You may also recall the Aloha 737 that went topless, one of the passengers had spotted fatigue cracks just aft of the doorframe, but didn't report it...
 
EA772LR
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 3:27 am

Don't Airbus' have a more flexible wing than the Boeings?
For the record, what does OEW stand for? is it original equipment weight?
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
timboflier215
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 18):
Don't Airbus' have a more flexible wing than the Boeings?

I have no idea. It may seem that way, but I imagine that both manufacturer's a/c are just as flexible in the wing dept!

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 18):
For the record, what does OEW stand for?

Operating Empty Weight
 
pygmalion
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 4:17 am

I would imagine that both A and B are similar. BTW There is no certified or approved max bend angle. The wing is tested to 150% of max load with no permanent damage and thereby certified. On the aircraft I have seen tested, the wings tips were pretty high up before the wing broke. IIRC the 767 tip was 25'+ above nominal, the 777 similar. The 757 looked almost vertical at the tip. Impressive and I have never seen anything approach it in flight even in very heavy turbulence.

Ops manuals require a aircraft survey for damage after a hard landing or heavy turbulence. The maintenance manual details how and where to look for the damage. Skin wrinkles, popped rivets etc.
 
jycarlisle
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 14):
the 777's flex by more than 148%!

Even though I like to sit in a right side window seat behind the wing, remind me the next time I take a T7 flight to sit above the wing so that I can see how much it flexes during flight.

Cheers
Jeremy
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lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 5:58 pm

I just realized that this whole thread is based on a hearing malfunction someone heard 'bent' instead of 'dent'

Compare 'dent in wing' to 'bended wing' and the pronunciation is indeed quite similar!

[Edited 2007-05-05 11:00:13]
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
philb
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 22):
I just realized that this whole thread is based on a hearing malfunction someone heard 'bent' instead of 'dent'

You are spot on.

Quoting Jycarlisle (Reply 21):
Even though I like to sit in a right side window seat behind the wing, remind me the next time I take a T7 flight to sit above the wing so that I can see how much it flexes during flight.

Next time on a 747-400, particularly if on a 10 hour plus sector, just watch how much the wing bends as it takes the load on take off. You will also see a marked droop on every landing as the wheels take the load.
 
larspl
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
I would think she would have been close to MTOW once fuelled, so they would have been extra careful for this not to happen.

in aviation we are extra carefull when emtpy and when fully loaded. to be extra carefull because she is loaded near mtow makes no sence: there is a very larger safety area above mtow before problems occur.

A dent is no big deal at all. the only big deal involved is some minor maintenance and major paper work.
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KL577
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 22):
I just realized that this whole thread is based on a hearing malfunction someone heard 'bent' instead of 'dent'

I realized this as well, given the fact that my source is both not a native English speaker and had been travelling already for 24 hours, he probably mixed up the words.
 
goldorak
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 7:51 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 9):
Agreed - this is what I said. It should be noted that a notorious area for CAT is western sub-Saharan Africa every time i've flown over it it has been very bumpy and on occasion very bumpy indeed- I remember AF lost a cabin crew member on a 744 flight JNB-CDG a few years ago due to sudden and violent CAT and a close encounter with an airborne drinks trolley as I recall. I agree with you - i think more than likely it was a very bumpy ride and they took her out of line for a quick check to make sure.

Some crew members were injured but no dead. It's a pax who died following severe injuries. As far as I remember, CAT were not involved. Their weather radar was broken and they entered a very active storm cloud and inferno begun.  devil 
 
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zeke
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 7:56 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Thats my recollection anyway.

"The pilot had used an erroneous take-off technique after receiving a training “tip” for achieving accurate rotation without incurring a tailstrike, which led to the aircraft failing to become airborne until it had overrun the runway, says the South African Civil Aviation Authority’s final report."

"The report says the reason for the captain’s erroneous take-off technique was that he had “received a tip during recent recurrent training sessions to move the Side Stick Order Indicator [SSOI, see diagram] to the +9° position on the primary flight display [PFD] during rotation for take-off to attain the prescribed two-thirds backward sidestick movement needed to rotate the aircraft for take-off”. The effect of selecting the SSOI cross to +9° on the PFD’s artificial horizon, then holding it there as the horizon bar moves downward reacting to the aircraft’s rotation, demands a gradual forward movement of the sidestick, which delays unstick."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...0-johannesburg-runway-overrun.html
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AlecxiA319
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Sat May 05, 2007 11:54 pm

I don't know I've never even been on one, but in PHL, i saw US Airways' A330's!
It was huge, it wasn't flying, sooo I can't imagine how the wings were bend too much!?!
AlecxiA319
 
Tom12
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Mon May 07, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Jycarlisle (Reply 21):
Even though I like to sit in a right side window seat behind the wing, remind me the next time I take a T7 flight to sit above the wing so that I can see how much it flexes during flight.

I didn't mean that it flexed that during flight. I meant during the tests they could take it to more than that.


Tom
"Per noctem volamus" - Royal Air Force Bomber Squadron IX
 
EI321
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RE: KLM A332 Wings Bended Too Much?

Mon May 07, 2007 2:29 am

Bendy wings? Maybe this plane cought a dose of 747-8 fever.