na
Posts: 9163
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Fri May 04, 2007 7:05 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Vaeremans



This impressive view of old Northwest aircraft at Marana has an interesting detail. Among all the passenger jets there is a freighter, one of the original batch of four 747-251Fs delivered in 1975/76. Registration is hardly readable, its either N616US or N618US.
This is the first freighter NWA is retiring. I wonder what will replace this old bird.
 
SwissA330
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:23 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Fri May 04, 2007 10:10 pm

and what about the DC9's?
 Smile
swissair/+/ we care
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Fri May 04, 2007 10:34 pm

ultimate question...
What replaces the 742 freighters? 742Conversions? 744BCF? 748F?
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
na
Posts: 9163
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
ultimate question...
What replaces the 742 freighters? 742Conversions? 744BCF? 748F?

NWA is said to convert some of its older 744s in the coming years.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4963
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting SwissA330 (Reply 1):
and what about the DC9's?

Do not blaspheme-NW DC-9's are eternal! Banish such unclean thoughts from your mind lest you get struck by lightning!
 hissyfit 
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
da man
Posts: 836
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:27 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
its either N616US or N618US.

Looks like N618US to me...
War Eagle!
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting NA (Reply 3):
NWA is said to convert some of its older 744s in the coming years.

Odd ball question. The 747-400 F has the shorter -100/-200 upper deck. Would NW convert their 744's to a shorter upper deck to reduce weight a la a reverse 747-200 SUD like KL did?

[Edited 2007-05-04 19:01:59]

[Edited 2007-05-04 19:02:34]
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6370
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Odd ball question. The 747-400 F has the shorter -100/-200 upper deck. Would NW convert their 744's to a shorter upper deck to reduce weight a la a reverse 747-200 SUD like KL did?

I severely doubt it !
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11833
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting SwissA330 (Reply 1):
and what about the DC9's?

I'm with SEpilot. Blasphamy.  Wink

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Odd ball question. The 747-400 F has the shorter -100/-200 upper deck. Would NW convert their 744's to a shorter upper deck to reduce weight a la a reverse 747-200 SUD like KL did?

No certified procedure for such a conversion.  Sad

Once you have the PAX upper deck, the plane ends its life like that. Its one reason the BCF has a little less lift than the factory 744F. (Notice I didn't type 744ERF, a different MTOW animal.)

The reality is with oil stuck at $60/bbl+ and looking to go higher (not in Euro denominate prices, but there is a penalty for our trade deficit...), NW must modernize their fleet. The NW strategy of milking the life out of older airframes was smart in the sub $35/bbl days. But the energy market won't ever be the same (e.g., India is building ~14km of superhighway per day. China has also announced an interstate network.)

Naturally, the DC-9's are exempt from anything as mundane as a fleet renewal program.  Wink

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
Flighty
Posts: 7687
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:10 am

Don't forget, NW still has some more 742 pax jets to convert into freighters. Still, it is surprising NW would not keep old 742s around for freight growth. That jet must have well over 120,000 hours, just plain worn out.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4963
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
That jet must have well over 120,000 hours, just plain worn out.

It is a well-established fact (in the original Hebrew there's a Bible verse that states it) that the only machine in the entire history of the planet-past and future-that is immune from aging is the DC-9. My Hebrew isn't too good-perhaps it also restricts it to those flown by NW.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Flighty
Posts: 7687
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):

It is a well-established fact (in the original Hebrew there's a Bible verse that states it) that the only machine in the entire history of the planet-past and future-that is immune from aging is the DC-9. My Hebrew isn't too good-perhaps it also restricts it to those flown by NW.

So I forget, did God create the DC-9 or did the DC-9 create God? Are there any famous paintings showing this?  Smile
 
na
Posts: 9163
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
Don't forget, NW still has some more 742 pax jets to convert into freighters.

The last 747-200B Freighter conversion so far was done in late 2005 by Bedek/Tel Aviv and it was actually a Northwest aircraft, registered N631US, now N631NW. I have my doubts that any more 742s will be converted, not even by NWA, now that the "youngest" 747-200B passenger planes are 21 years old (the few 742s which are younger are all freighters or converted freighters). 744 conversions are done at full pace these days, leaving no capacity anyway.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 5:29 am

That picture has so many NW birds in it, almost looks like a bankruptcy/dissolution sale going on!!

Sad to see so many grand old lady's of the sky just sitting around.
One Nation Under God
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6370
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting NA (Reply 12):

The last 747-200B Freighter conversion so far was done in late 2005 by Bedek/Tel Aviv and it was actually a Northwest aircraft, registered N631US, now N631NW. I have my doubts that any more 742s will be converted

I read somewhere that the above company did their last -200,and will only do 400's and maybe 300's(??) from now on.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
COERJ145
Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
So I forget, did God create the DC-9 or did the DC-9 create God? Are there any famous paintings showing this?

Big version: Width: 1208 Height: 688 File size: 561kb


[Edited 2007-05-04 22:38:49]
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5038
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting NA (Reply 3):

NWA is said to convert some of its older 744s in the coming years.

Thats one of the options, the others are to buy 777F's or 748F's.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):
NW must modernize their fleet. The NW strategy of milking the life out of older airframes was smart in the sub $35/bbl days.

Actually the DC-9's are cheaper to operate then a leased A319 and especially A320.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 10:31 am

Any one notice the N number in post 15?
N763NC...wasn't that the 50 in the gate collision at MSP with the A 319 a year or so back
and wasn't N763NC pulled from service and parted out?
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
COA735
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:49 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 15):

 rotfl   rotfl 

I noticed alot of NWA planes with new paint schemes in that pic. Does this mean that they are in some sort of financial trouble, or are they replacing them with another type of aircraft (319,320)?
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting COA735 (Reply 18):
I noticed alot of NWA planes with new paint schemes in that pic. Does this mean that they are in some sort of financial trouble, or are they replacing them with another type of aircraft (319,320)?

likely the problems with their RJ contracts and routes put the smaller frames there.

and of course the MD-11 are likely only waiting for slots to get converted before they go to their new owners whoever they are.
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting COA735 (Reply 18):
I noticed alot of NWA planes with new paint schemes in that pic. Does this mean that they are in some sort of financial trouble, or are they replacing them with another type of aircraft (319,320)?

Does "Being in Bankruptcy and reducing domestic capacity dramatically during restructuring" count as financial trouble? If so, then yes.  Smile

BTW, my biblical Hewbrew is pretty good, and it's quite clear that Noah tried to sell off his DC-9's after the Mabul (the great flood) but he couldn't find buyers since the market demand for freight carrying DC-9's that smelled like barns was quite low at the time. Northwest aquired them in a merger and converted them back to passenger configuration.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:23 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 4):
NW DC-9's are eternal

is that why im seeing DC-9s w/ covered up windows and such?!  Silly

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
Actually the DC-9's are cheaper to operate then a leased A319 and especially A320.

it shows.. Smile
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 21):
is that why im seeing DC-9s w/ covered up windows and such?!

nah its just naptime for some of them.
 
da man
Posts: 836
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:27 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 19):
and of course the MD-11 are likely only waiting for slots to get converted before they go to their new owners whoever they are.

Um, those are DC-10s not MD-11s.
War Eagle!
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Da man (Reply 23):
Um, those are DC-10s not MD-11s.

same difference, looked like the tail engine was larger so I guessed...
 
COERJ145
Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 17):
N763NC...wasn't that the 50 in the gate collision at MSP with the A 319 a year or so back
and wasn't N763NC pulled from service and parted out?

Actually its N763NW, not NC.

[Edited 2007-05-05 04:18:40]
 
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3226
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
What replaces the 742 freighters? 742Conversions? 744BCF? 748F?

Actually, a massive fleet of DC-9Fs. To make up for lack of capacity, they'll travel in packs.
 
COERJ145
Posts: 1140
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:22 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 1:47 pm

Due to the last image getting deleted(by accident)...


God Creates a Northwest DC-9


[Edited 2007-05-05 07:04:41]
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11833
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):

Actually the DC-9's are cheaper to operate then a leased A319 and especially A320.

NW used to advertise that up to a certain cost of oil. Do you have a link for the per flight costs.

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 27):
Due to the last image getting deleted(by accident)...

 rotfl   rotfl 

That is a great image! I love it!

Oh, I'm shocked, shocked that this has turned into a NW DC-9 discussion.  Wink

What is the freighter retirement schedule? I imagine its only a few. Do recall, many freighters sit unused this time of year. So are we sure its to be scrapped? Or is it just yield management based on the seasonal demand?

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
User avatar
ASMD11
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:40 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:02 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
So I forget, did God create the DC-9 or did the DC-9 create God? Are there any famous paintings showing this?



Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 27):
Due to the last image getting deleted(by accident)...

I knew it! That must have been on the 8th day  Wink
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:20 pm

This is the last year Northwest will fly PAX 747-200s. I think another two 747Fs will be retired next year. Northwest will probably start converting 747-400s into freighters after the 787s start arriving. The 747Fs NW has are starting to get a little long in the tooth,except for N639US and N640US. These are the last freighters they bought new. The two 747-200s NW had converted into freighters are the last 747-200s that will be converted into freighters by anyone. The 747-200s converted by Boeing are two ex United 747-200s that were converted for Northwest. They are N645NW and N646NW.
Northwest will have to stop flying the DC-9s when they reach 100,000 cycles as agreed with the FAA, due to an aft pressure bulkhead problem that causes cracking in that area. They will keep recycling them in and out of the desert until they are no longer able to legally fly them or they are no longer economical to repair and maintain.
They are looking for a 90 to 100 seat replacement, which will probably be a regional jet.  airplane   old 
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting SwissA330 (Reply 1):
and what about the DC9's?
Smile

I see at least a dozen in front of the 747s.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:34 pm

So, if Northwest is converting pax 747-451s to freighters, what will they use to replenish their long-range, high-capacity passenger fleet? Note that I said "high-capacity;" I'm well aware that the new 787s (coming next summer, can't believe it) will be used extensively to Asia on long, thinnish routes, but I'm curious if anyone has any idea what NW's long-term plan is for the long, fat routes (the MSP-NRTs and DTW-NRTs of this world). Any comments, thoughts, etc.? 747-8i? A340-600? A380? 777-300ER? Or a less orthodox solution (like sending four 787s to Tokyo from Detroit every day)?
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 32):
747-8i? A340-600? A380? 777-300ER?

In case they'll find money for it, I think we'll see at least two of those four models in NW colours. A346 or77W to replace the 742s, 747-8 or A380 to replace the 744s and the 747F.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 5:50 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
In case they'll find money for it, I think we'll see at least two of those four models in NW colours. A346 or77W to replace the 742s, 747-8 or A380 to replace the 744s and the 747F.

Northwest Airlines will never buy the Airbus A380 or A340-600. They are going to stick with twin engine aircraft in the future. They will convert their PAX 747s to freighters. The only reason Northwest would buy the 747-8F is it has a nose door, where converted 747s do not. They may buy some used 747-400 freighters to obtain nose door equipted freighters.  bouncy   old 
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:56 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 34):
They are going to stick with twin engine aircraft in the future

So in a few years time it's going to take a heckuva lot of rotations to fly the usual complement of DTW-NRT flights?

Sad. As a supporter of four-engined aircraft (tradition, reliability -- and yes, I know ETOPS is good -- aesthetics, performance) this is sad news for my favorite airline. I still haven't flown an ETOPS run, and I'm not looking forward to the day I do. Say all you want about its reliability, you have to admit that it's not a good thing for an aircraft to lose 50% of its available propulsion.

How about this instead: Northwest orders 18 747-8i aircraft (replacement for all the pax 744s, plus two airframes for expansion) and Boeing cuts them a deal on 12-14 747-8F machines. 30-32 aircraft: a pretty hefty order, but if NW continues to get its financial house in order, and if Boeing is feeling generous, then it could happen.

Advantages of the 747-8 for Northwest include: modestly expanded capacity of both passengers and cargo; improved fuel economy (and hence lower cost per seat mile); improved environmental impact (quieter and less fuel); significant commonality with their existing fleet; and improved performance (speed/range). But this is just my personal soapbox  Smile.
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 34):
Northwest Airlines will never buy the Airbus A380 or A340-600. They are going to stick with twin engine aircraft in the future.

Really? How do you know?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
jeffry747
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 7:20 pm

Why did they even bother painting all of those old birds in that beautiful brand new paint job if they're only gonna mothball 'em. Seems like a waste of time, effort, and money to me.
C'mon Big B, FLY!
 
AlecxiA319
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:07 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sat May 05, 2007 11:57 pm

618US
AlecxiA319
(look at the poor DC9's!)
 boxedin 
It's so smashed in there!
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5038
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: NWA Starts Retiring 742 Freighters

Sun May 06, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 28):
NW used to advertise that up to a certain cost of oil. Do you have a link for the per flight costs.

No it was in the fleet renewal plan that NWA gave to ALPA which in turn gave to the pilots.

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 30):
They are looking for a 90 to 100 seat replacement, which will probably be a regional jet.

I don't know about a "regional jet" either way it will be a mainline aircraft, so it will probably be like US and go with the 190/195 series of aircraft.

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 34):
They will convert their PAX 747s to freighters.

Its unknown right now, that was an idea but they are heavily considering the 777F and 748F

Quoting Nwarooster (Reply 34):
The only reason Northwest would buy the 747-8F is it has a nose

It also has better economics.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 36):
Really? How do you know?

It was stated publically by NW that they won't even consider the A380 as its too large and limited with airports.

Who is online