srbmod
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Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:25 am

With the first thread on this topic getting a bit long, this is the new thread in which to continue the discussion of the crash of Kenya Airways flight 507.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:34 am

More conflicting info on the location of the crash site. One report says 6 miles from the airport; another report says 18 miles.

Here are two Google Earth captures for each distance from the airport. The airport is in the upper left hand corner, and the respective 6/18 mile distance runs due east, so you can make your own arc... Let the photo analysis begin...

6 Miles from airport...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d143/OPNLguy/doualacameroonairportarea6miles.jpg

18 miles from airport...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d143/OPNLguy/doualacameroonairportarea18miles.jpg
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OA260
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:35 am

Just a question that was made in the previous thread where a poster said it was more tricky to fly a 737-800 than other 737's. Im just wondering why ???
 
antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:41 am

The Australian reports that wreckage was found only 20Km SE of DLA.

Quote:
the wreckage of the plane has been located in the small village of Mbanga Pongo, in the Douala III subdivision. We are putting in place rescue measures," Cameroon's Minister of State for Territorial Administration Hamidou Yaya Marafa said.
"For now we cannot say whether there were any survivors or not. Access to the area is very difficult," he said. "We are beginning a new painful phase. Our task will be more difficult now, the task of recovering the corpses." An aviation official said a ground team was at the site and a search party was trying to reach the area by helicopter. It was more than 100km from the zone where radar-equipped helicopters, ground search parties and villagers on motorbikes had spent much of the weekend combing thick tropical forest. Kenya Airways Group Managing Director Titus Naikuni said in Nairobi that local fishermen had led rescuers to the crash site. "We are told the aircraft was covered by a canopy of trees, and that was the delay in sighting the crash site," he said.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...tory/0,20867,21684312-1702,00.html
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting Antskip (Reply 3):
The Australian reports that wreckage was found only 20Km SE of DLA.

OK, another distance, which is about 12.5 miles... Here's a map for that too...

12.5 miles (20Km) from airport...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d143/OPNLguy/doualacameroonairportarea12_5miles.jpg
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etfokker50
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 6:05 am

There's enough water in that area for a plane to crash, it looks like. But it looks more like a river to me than a swamp, though that is hard to tell. I guess that the area between the rivers isn't exactly dry either. 20km is not much though. I regret to have to say this is sounding more and more like the last KQ crash - except there the impact was into the sea, but also very shortly after takeoff!
 
omoo
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 6:12 am

The kenyan Standard reporting Wreckage found 60 Miles from the airport.

Quote:


A Kenya Airways plane that went missing with 114 passengers and crew on board has been located.
The airline’s CEO, Mr Titus Naikuni, confirmed last night that Flight KQ 507 from Douala to Nairobi had been located in a mangrove swamp 20km southeast of Douala.
Naikuni said there was no confirmed information on survivors or any possible casualties.
The aircraft was more than 100 km (60 miles) away from the zone where radar-equipped helicopters, ground search parties and villagers on motorbikes had spent much of Saturday and Sunday combing thick tropical forest.
Naikuni said the search and rescue operation was still in progress and the KQ team was at the accident scene.
The CEO said the rescue team, led by Cameroonian authorities, had relied on the information given by local fishermen to locate the wreckage.
A dispatch posted on the airline’s website had earlier said fishermen reported hearing a loud bang "that was accompanied by significant water disturbance".

http://www.eastandard.net/archives/c...news/news.php?articleid=1143968290
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legoguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting Antskip (Reply 3):
the wreckage of the plane has been located in the small village of Mbanga Pongo,

If the crash is near the village and not actually on top of the village then perhaps if there were any survivors, the villagers may have been able to help, despite their lack of basic resources.

Quoting Antskip (Reply 3):
Group Managing Director Titus Naikuni said in Nairobi that local fishermen had led rescuers to the crash site. "We are told the aircraft was covered by a canopy of trees, and that was the delay in sighting the crash site,"

Could this mean a shallow crash angle, thus meaning trees ended up covering the crash spot?
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Flighty
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 6:31 am

This sounds like a scenario where some people could survive.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
This sounds like a scenario where some people could survive.

How so?

We know nothing of how the aircraft went down or even precisely where it went down. If it went down 20km from DLA as is most widely reported, it certainly had gained some altitude.

Was it shot down? Engine failure? Windshear? Terrorism?

Doesn't pay to speculate at this time. There isn't enough information about anything to say anything with any creditability.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
richm
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
This sounds like a scenario where some people could survive.

I'd like to know what makes you think this. I am unable to think of any positive factors here, which makes me question why you see signs of hope. It all looks pretty grim to me. (Based mainly on common sense and simple logic)
 
Flighty
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting RichM (Reply 10):
I'd like to know what makes you think this. I am unable to think of any positive factors here,

We don't have any terrible factors either. We only know the jet went down in a swampy area, right? Do we know the speed at impact? If it's 110 knots, we might have survivors, but I agree, probably not. But it's worth sending rescuers. Even if you survive, the jungle might kill you in a few days. Or if you need medical care, much more quickly.
 
philb
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:21 am

Whilst there is still a great deal of confusion surrounding the actual location the proximity to the airpiort of the currently reported site(s)compared to previously quoted locations would, if proved true and given the weather conditions, militate for a windshear/microburst accident during climb.
 
EMA747
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:29 am

Hope this is of some interest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6630953.stm

Quote:
"Kenya Airways regrets to confirm that its flight KQ 507 has been located on a mangrove swamp 20km (12 miles) south of Douala," CEO Titus Naikuni told a news conference in Nairobi.

White line shows 20km South of Douala airport.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/thegreek2213/douala.jpg

Quoting Philb (Reply 12):
a windshear/microburst accident during climb.

What is this?
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
stirling
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 11:56 am

I am not a meteorologist, but looking at the stock Google satellite imagery, and the Popcorn effect of the clouds, reiterates that the environment here is hot, and damp, which If I am not mistaken, are the perfect conditions for microburst and windshear events. And just look at how many there are, how is an aircraft, any aircraft, supposed to run that gauntlet at the altitude the Kenya flight would have been.
It could go from calm, to all hell breaking loose weather-wise, in a matter of meters, let alone kilometers.


I wonder what the altitude should have been at 12.5km out?

I was on the LBJ approaching the International Pkwy when the DL 1011 went down......a big boy helpless against nature.
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CRGsFuture
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 12:37 pm

Ok, I read one report where it says the flight was carrying a flight engineer? No offense, but why? The computers onboard a 738 take out the need for one, are you sure this isn't a 732?

Quote:
reiterates that the environment here is hot, and damp, which If I am not mistaken, are the perfect conditions for microburst and windshear events

More like thermals especially due to the water present. However I did not take a look at the lifting air chart so I cannot confirm the chance for microbursts.

[Edited 2007-05-07 05:41:41]
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OPNLguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting Omoo (Reply 6):
The kenyan Standard reporting Wreckage found 60 Miles from the airport.



Quoting EMA747 (Reply 13):
White line shows 20km South of Douala airport.

6, 18, 12.5, now 60 miles. I channel-hopped the 10pm news here plus CNN, and heard them all, along with south, south-southeast, and southeast of the airport. Until some authortative source reports a lat-lon, I'd forget about the media...

Quoting Philb (Reply 12):
a windshear/microburst accident during climb.



Quoting EMA747 (Reply 13):
What is this?

Check-out the www.aviation-safety.net website and look-up the Pan Am 759 accident at MSY back in 1982, as that's the scenario I think Philb was referring to.

[Edited 2007-05-07 05:55:08]
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OPNLguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 15):
Ok, I read one report where it says the flight was carrying a flight engineer? No offense, but why? The computers onboard a 738 take out the need for one, are you sure this isn't a 732?

In many parts of the world, the "flight engineer" in this context is a mechanic who travels with the aircraft, usually in the cockpit jumpseat. He has no duties inflight (that I'm aware of), but is along to handle fueling during the turn, and be available to fix anything that breaks.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
blrBird
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 15):
Ok, I read one report where it says the flight was carrying a flight engineer? No offense, but why?

I am not positive but read in previous thread that, in this part of the world its hard to find someone who can do that kinda job if needed.
from star dust....
 
jaysit
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 1:29 pm

The flight engineer was apparently dead-heading back to Nairobi. He was not listed as an official crew member.

Also, while I applaud the optimism some have on this site for finding survivors, I seriously doubt we will find any.

Something happened to the aircraft that made it impossible to return to Douala. No pilot would risk crash landing in the dark into unknown terrain, when the airport was only 20 km away.

Like many, I hope that the aircraft miraculously made a planned landing into swampy territory, and that the fuselage is intact with survivors waiting for rescue inside, but I remain pessimistic. In all likelihood, it slammed into the swamp and shattered both itself and its human cargo into a million bits.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 2:47 pm

Jaysit,

I dont know about other airlines, but in my airline, you are to get out of the aircraft (even if intact) and find shelter with the slides up-wind.
 
antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 19):
Like many, I hope that the aircraft miraculously made a planned landing into swampy territory, and that the fuselage is intact with survivors waiting for rescue inside, but I remain pessimistic.

It appears from sketchy reports that the KQ team has been at the crash site for hours, so it is very unlikely that there have been survivors. If there were any, surely that is the first communication that would have come out of there!
 
CV990
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 4:25 pm

Hi!

I was just checking CBS News homepage this morning and there was a report from a US pilot called Patrick Smith saying, and I quote - "Whatever happened, must have happened very fast which is usually a sign of catastrophic structural faillure....a plane never takes off into a thunderstorm, no crew or carrier would allow that. But it is remotely possible that the plane could have inadvertently gonne into some extremely turbulent air and suffered massive hail damage or a sudden structural faillure."
This kind of a good information, specially taking in mind that the plane crashed around 20 kms from the airport, so that was a mere few minutes after take-off and coincides with the information given by Douala Airport Control, that they lost contact shortly after take off~.
Regards
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OPNLguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 22):
This kind of a good information,

Not really. His speculation isn't better than anyone else's at this point...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
omoo
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 4:55 pm

Update:

Quote:


PRESS STATEMENT.

An update on the situation in Cameroon:

Released on 6 / 5 / 2007: 22:00hrs

Kenya Airways regrets to confirm that its flight KQ 507 from Douala to Nairobi has been located on a mangrove swamp, 20km South-East of Douala, on the planned flight path.

The aircraft was a Boeing 737 - 800. At this time, search and rescue operations are in progress and we have no confirmed information about survivors or any possible casualties. The search and rescue team which includes the KQ team is still at the accident scene.

Fly Air Popobawa
 
CV990
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:06 pm

Hi!

OPMLguy, don't you think what that pilot said is relevant? At this point all the information is good and of course speculative...until they analyse the black-boxes and find out the real cause!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
lxlgu
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:09 pm

According to News 24- pieces of wreckage found are no bigger than a car door

Rescuers found a seat and body parts in the muddy crash area

Rest in peace!

Tony
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:16 pm

BBC is reporting that there are no survivors.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6631507.stm

May the passengers RIP.

[Edit for spelling error.]

[Edited 2007-05-07 10:24:58]
 
antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting Lxlgu (Reply 26):
escuers found a seat and body parts in the muddy crash area

The Washington Post reports that the Cameroon's civil protection service claims there is no chance of survivors - the plane wreck is almost entirely buried in the swamp, 20K from takeoff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...e/2007/05/07/AR2007050700111.html.

Discovery will continue with dawn, 7 or so hours away. So don't expect too much more news until after that time.....
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting Antskip (Reply 28):
Discovery will continue with dawn, 7 or so hours away

Right now, it's about 3 hours into the morning there (assuming sun-up was 6 am LT).
 
antskip
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 29):
Right now, it's about 3 hours into the morning there (assuming sun-up was 6 am LT).

Oops! You are quite right. (blush) Plenty of daylight there now! It's 93.36 am there now, and dawn was at 6.02 am, with dusk (it's quick) at 6.19 pm, local. The report of course was from last night - and I read my global clock wrong (blush).

I hope they have bear up today OK today. It will be a long and tough task.
 
philb
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
Pan Am 759 accident at MSY back in 1982, as that's the scenario I think Philb was referring to.

It didn't specifically occur to me at the time I posted but the scenario - heavy thunderstorms and shifting winds - would be similar

Quoting CV990 (Reply 22):
a plane never takes off into a thunderstorm, no crew or carrier would allow that

What!!!! The history of airline accidents is littered with instances of aircraft both taking off and landing into storms and also penetrating storms at altitude at the cost of airframes and lives..
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 25):
OPMLguy, don't you think what that pilot said is relevant?

Not particularly.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 25):
At this point all the information is good and of course speculative...until they analyse the black-boxes and find out the real cause!

..except that there's virtually no "information" out there... He could have just as easily said that a meteor or a piece of space junk knocked it down.

Philb has already taken him to task above for his (the "expert's") "a plane never takes off into a thunderstorm, no crew or carrier would allow that" comment.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
CV990
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 7:54 pm

Hi!

Well it looks that Cap.Patrick Smith even beeing a pilot is misleading some good people ( like me...)!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
gffgold
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 8:05 pm

Bear in mind that equatorial mangrove swamp is nothing like the soft peat bogs of northern lattitudes. Many mangrove trees are big and very, very tough. Any ground above the low water mark is obstructed by awkwardly protruding aerial roots that basically grow upwards out of the mud. There can be precious little firm ground for miles around and absolutely no safe drinking water. If you didn't have a boat or raft then your survival time would be similar to that of someone in open seawater.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 8:19 pm

Looking at the posts of our armchair investigators here, it is highly possible that a combination of factors may have contributed to this accident, most notably a severe thunderstorm with windshear or a microburst. Other factors could include:
Not having sufficient information as to the weather ahead so flew into a very bad storm,
The pilot being rushed to keep on schedule despite the potentially severe weather ahead;
Some physical failure to the aircraft from the severity of the storm from breaking it apart or damaging a critical control surface, a major loss of lift;
Pilot error, from a misjudgement of the aircraft's position or a critical misjudgement despite or in excess of their experience flying being in a severe storm, as still a very new aircraft (at 6 months) a misjudgement as not fully familiar with it's handling or operational characteristics;
Hail or excessive water ingestion into the engine;
Of course, we all hope the recorders on the aircraft will help with the information needed to help determine the cause. The recorders will be critical for that. Along with that, let us also hope that the crash site can be sufficiently secured so that parts of the aircraft needed to help in the investigation are not stolen for badly needed income. (that has happened at crash sites in other 3rd world areas);
By the way, are there any recordings between this or other nearby aircraft and ATC? Are their recordings or live comments there as to other recent takeoffs, landings or other a/c operating in the area? That may help to give us some preliminary information as to the cause of this accident.
 
EMA747
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 8:39 pm

Quote:
NAIROBI, May 7 - A member of the Kenyan delegation which visited the crash site of Kenya Airways flight 507 on Sunday night described the scene as horrifying and dashed any hopes of survivors.

He said the fuselage was submerged in a swamp, while pieces of the aircraft were strewn across a large area. He also said they could see a crater where the plane appears to have hit the ground on impact.

Source: http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/news...e.asp?newsid=2185&newscategoryid=1
Sounds like survivours are very unlikely.  Sad
If this report is accurate then a crater where the plane hit the ground would mean that it was not a total breakup and that at least a large part of the plane was intact when it hit the ground wouldn't it?
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
Eirules
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 9:00 pm

I know I am going to get totally flamed for asking this, and Im not saying it as an accusation just as something that has been running through my mind for a while. There seem to have been a high number of crashes involving 737s, even since 2000. I know a number have involved older aircraft and airlines with poor safety records generally, but does anyone believe there to be some issue with the 737 itself? I know there are more 737s flying than most other commercial aircraft but evn taking Boeing's other major aircraft still flying (747s, 757s, 767s, 777s) but the percentages still seem to be higher
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
a3
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 37):
I know I am going to get totally flamed for asking this,

I hope not...............

The total loss of almost band new B737s raises questions , as you have mentioned there are issues concerning some parts of the ruder in older models , but is hard to think that these issues have not been resolved in the new planes.

Lets wait the investigation result to see if this was a malfunction or something else.
Rgds
A3
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pilotaydin
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 37):
but does anyone believe there to be some issue with the 737 itself?

you answered your own question in a way....i fly the 737 and there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever, the 737 is a short-medium haul aircraft, so it cycles a crap load, which means it enters and leaves the critical phase of flight a LOT more than Boeing's other aircraft...therefore it is prone to more accidents along side being the most used aircraft....if you look at the 737 incidents/accidents, they have mostly been manageable, and mostly come down due to pilot error or in one case ATC error over Brazil....the only hard thing about flying a 737NG is rolling over during takeoff because when you lose the engine you put in rudder, if you get an autorelight at any stage, you actually roll over to the other side....as ive said before ive seen it happen in the sim with guys that have over 10,000 hours in it...single engine in a t-storm/bad weather in a NG is not fun.....

Unrealted: on July 14th 2006 when we were approaching IST, kenya airways 737-800 was flying in, and a freak storm super cell was overhead the entire portion of the city and airport, we entered holding...our aircraft along with 30 others couldnt even maintain altitude or stay on autopilot, that's how bad it was, we diverted, before we diverted, the Kenya crew were very confused and jittery on the radio, and i still remember today, the controller came on in Turkish and said, Please all aircraft stop calling me, i need to help out Kenya, he's worrying, and this is the story i thought of as soon as i heard about the crash...they are unrelated, this doesn't mean that, i just wanted to tell the story because it reminded me....and i don't want to see someone try and connect the two and say, could it be Kenya airways doesnt train for bad weather....that would just be pathetic to read...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
Eirules
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 39):
you answered your own question in a way....

I understand that the 737 has far more cycles than say a 747, but it is compartive to say an A320 or 321 and they dont seem to have the same accident rates as a 737. Dont get me wrong, Im not trying to say the 737 is a bad aircraft, just asking the question i suppose
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
CV990
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 9:43 pm

Hi!

We have much more 737's than A320/A321!!! I was just thinking about KQ introducing the 738...KQ have quite a good record with 737's, flying the Classic, passing with the 733 and now the 738! We are not talking about the same type of aircraft right? A 73S/733 it's quite different than a 738, so I wonder if "the way you fly" a 73S/733 is quite different than a 738? Maybe someone here that is a 738 pilot AND he passed already in a 73S/733 can give us come details regarding these differences. I personally would like to know a bit more, I flew the 738 ( with KL ) I also flew the 737-700 ( with BU and CO ) and also the Classic ones ( 733, 734, 735 ) and the "Old ones" ( 73S and 737-100 ) and I think that the 700 model looks more like the Classic ones, but the 738 is closer ( to me of course..) to the 757! This is just bainstorming.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting EMA747 (Reply 36):
If this report is accurate then a crater where the plane hit the ground would mean that it was not a total breakup and that at least a large part of the plane was intact when it hit the ground wouldn't it?

That remains to be seen (literally), should they discover multiple wreckage sites or not.

When Valujet 592 went into the Everglades, this is what the site looked like:

http://www.cnn.com/US/9605/11/plane.crash/6p/crash.site.large.jpg For a sense of scale, note the helicopter on the left side of the photo.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 40):
I understand that the 737 has far more cycles than say a 747, but it is compartive to say an A320 or 321 and they dont seem to have the same accident rates as a 737. Dont get me wrong, Im not trying to say the 737 is a bad aircraft, just asking the question i suppose

remember the 737-100 + models came out way before airbus tried to even compete with that range of model, the airbus A320-100 onwards has been highly sophisticated compared to steam gauge 737-200-500s so it's been around for a long time im pretty sure the 737 has flown a good 10-20 times more cycles than the Airbus 320 series have

Quoting CV990 (Reply 41):
Hi!

indeed, i fly the 737-400 and the 737-800, and i can tell you manually they fly very different....

the 734 flies like a c172, single engine operation is very easy, a few lbs of rudder pressure and she holds steady easily in sim and real flight....

the 738....has longer wings, a lot more aileron moment and flight spoilers that deploy further out...IF and i say this without hesitation, IF you touch the stick and bank a 737-800 during single engine....you'll either roll past 30 degrees or you'll roll over....it is extremely sensitive, and in the sim if they see you touch the stick during engine out, they'll throw something at you lol and say NO!!! from the back, ive seen it done...if you move the 800 stick an inch t the right or left, the aircraft banks around 20 degrees...it is super sensitive, so are the rudders, and if you start oscilation because you cant keep her steady, then you can drive it into the ground with POI, we had it shown to us in the sim...quite interesting, as far as landing goes, landing without power in the 737-800 will hit HARD landing without power in the 400 you float for days  Smile no worries there
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:23 pm

Hi Pilotaydin!

Very, very interesting your explanation ( at least for me...) the way both 737's handle, thanks very much. By the way, flying with the 738 have you been in LIS any time???? Let me know....I'll pay you a drink during your lay over!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 44):
Very, very interesting your explanation ( at least for me...) the way both 737's handle, thanks very much. By the way, flying with the 738 have you been in LIS any time???? Let me know....I'll pay you a drink during your lay over!
Regards

hey there ive been to LIS several times but unfortunately we don't overnight, the approach is beautiful  Smile
if you come to IST though always glad to get some beer  Smile

do you fly at all? ppl?
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:38 pm

Hi!

Dear friend....pitty...but next time you come let me know...I'll be in the runway heading and will take a picture of your 738 landing at LIS! Yes, aproach in RN03 is awesome, over the river Tagus, Lisbon it's very nice...also when you take-off from RN21 you can have an excelent view of downtown Lisbon! Noop I don't fly has a pilot...only has passenger and I still hope to fly THY one of these days...I'm loking forward to go visit Turkey with my wife...looks a great place to visit.
Cheers and regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
EMA747
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:01 am

RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 43):
IF you touch the stick and bank a 737-800 during single engine....you'll either roll past 30 degrees or you'll roll over....it is extremely sensitive, and in the sim if they see you touch the stick during engine out, they'll throw something at you lol and say NO!!! from the back, ive seen it done...if you move the 800 stick an inch t the right or left, the aircraft banks around 20 degrees...it is super sensitive, so are the rudders,

So what do you do to turn and descend etc?

Is this also the case with the -700? I'm guessing it's not such a problem with the -600 as it's a lot smaller.
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 43):
the 738....has longer wings, a lot more aileron moment and flight spoilers that deploy further out...IF and i say this without hesitation, IF you touch the stick and bank a 737-800 during single engine....you'll either roll past 30 degrees or you'll roll over....

Is this any different for a 738 with winglets? Or does a 738 with or without winglets perform in a similar fashion in such an instance?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Kenya Airways 737-800 Lost PT. 2

Mon May 07, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting EMA747 (Reply 47):
So what do you do to turn and descend etc?

Is this also the case with the -700? I'm guessing it's not such a problem with the -600 as it's a lot smaller

Well if you're turning you change the rudder pressure and that banks the plane over for you, you CAN add a LITTLE aileron but it's tricky.....

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 48):
Is this any different for a 738 with winglets? Or does a 738 with or without winglets perform in a similar fashion in such an instance?

the winglets as we've been told, help in a minor way to stabilize the a/c and since there is less drag it helps out a tad, BUT if you yaw too much, it can have a negative effect because it adds a large surface area facing into the relative wind....the crosswing component is reduced with NGs that have winglets....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!

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